Escape Artists

Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Russell Nash on September 07, 2007, 06:36:28 AM

Title: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Russell Nash on September 07, 2007, 06:36:28 AM
EP122: Transcendence Express (http://escapepod.org/2007/09/06/ep122-transcendence-express/)

By Jetse de Vries (http://eclipticplane.blogspot.com/).
Read by Jack Mangan (of Jack Mangan’s Deadpan (http://www.jackmangan.com/)).
First appeared in Hub Magazine (http://www.hub-mag.co.uk/) Issue #2.

Unable to keep my distance, I walk up to three classmates interacting with one such a BIKO. The pictures are fuzzy, the colours ill-defined and the reaction time tediously slow. However, the letters appearing are large and easily readable, and after all three kids have been asked to introduce themselves the program equally divides its attention to each of them, making them take turns while the other two can effortlessly follow what’s going on. But man, is it slow. The display makes your eyes water and would have any western whizz kid tuning the screen properties like crazy.

Still, the real wonder is that those pell-mell constructions are doing anything at all. Furthermore, those African kids have nothing to compare them with, so are uncritically happy with what they’ve got. As dinner time closes in Liona has to wrestle most kids away from their new toys and promises that first thing tomorrow they will — after school hours — start making new BIKOs, so that eventually every classmate will have one. The whole class cheers and Liona’s smile doesn’t leave her face for the rest of the evening.


Rated R. Contains sexual innuendo, some strong language, and an R-rated bit of podcast feedback at the end.


Referenced Sites:
Steve’s Dragon*Con Report (http://sfeley.livejournal.com/43960.html)
Médecins Sans Frontières/Doctors Without Borders (http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/)


Blog of the Week:
Hares Rock Lots (http://lossrockhart.livejournal.com/)
(receives Carnal Knowledge (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312371217/escapepod-20) by Charles Hodgson)


(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://escapepod.org/podpress_trac/web/240/0/EP122_TranscendenceExpress.mp3)
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: bolddeceiver on September 07, 2007, 09:10:45 AM
While the story did get bogged down at parts in its discussion of technology (the BIKOs seemed more like characters than the people, and I'm not talking about the AI part), I find near-modern-setting SF about development in the global south very interesting.  It's an issue most people don't think much about, or if they do it's the simplicity of "there are people starving in Africa."  I did my Political Science senior seminar at uni on development issues, and it's a topic I have stayed quite interested in.  This story did a good job addressing some of the overwhelming difficulties of development and the developing world, and de Vries deserves a great deal of respect for this.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: eytanz on September 07, 2007, 01:35:59 PM
It's nice, every once in a while, to have a story based on the outright optimism that sufficiently advanced technology is all that's necessary to solve our problems. And the idea that developing countries offer the best place for a fresh start was interesting.

I was a bit confused by the flashback scenes, though, especially the second one. First, the concern that the AIs will ultimately decide that humanity is obsolete seems to be totally dismissed by the claim that that won't happen if there is an objective morality. That's sort of a big if, isn't it? I certianly don't believe in an objective morality, so I didn't find that very reassuring.

Secondly, and perhaps more relevant to the story itself, I'm curious about the "there is a way" comment about the first AI surviving. It wasn't clear what the way was, or what was actually done, but I was wondering if the narrator was actually an AI and just not aware of it - though the fact that he didn't seem to be superintelligent in any way might argue against that. I don't know. I'd like to go back to the print story and see if I can work it out but I can't afford buying a backissue of Hub, and I don't know of any other way to get it. Anyone caught anything I missed here?
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: eytanz on September 07, 2007, 01:47:31 PM
Also, if BIKO is short for Biological Quantum Computer, why is it spelt BIKO and not BIQCO?
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: twitcat on September 07, 2007, 02:35:04 PM
I thoroughly enjoyed the story. I agree that it was nice to have such a strong sense of optimism througout the narrative.

Also, the Dutch word for 'quantum' is 'kwantum'. That might have something to do with the acronym.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: DeGem on September 07, 2007, 03:50:54 PM
what I found to be very intresting is that the solution to a very complex problem (Q-computers) was created very simply.  It sort of goes towards that saying "Well, once you understand it, its very simple"  and Occam's razor also.

Many times in life people just simply over complicate things.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Reggie on September 07, 2007, 09:43:59 PM
I thought of three things while listening to this story.

The first is that, I really don't care for the educational setting in these stories.  There've been a couple that involve classrooms and the like, and so far, they just haven't really done it for me.

The second thing I thought about when they were making computer boxes out of wood, was the episode of Futurama where Bender has his body replaced by wood.

The third, the issue I actually wish to raise, is how much relevance there really is to real life projects that are going on today. 

I remember hearing recently about a group that was trying to get laptops developed that would only cost something like $150 that would be used just for educational purposes in poor or otherwise developing countries.  Just like they did with the technology in this story.  Now, I think that's a great idea, but the problem I have with it is if we can do those things for poor countries, what about the places in our own that need those technologies and that kind of help as well?  Sure it's great to do something useful for the rest of the world for a change, but shouldn't we send some of that to the cities and poor areas of our own country, regardless of how developed and powerful we already are?

I think it introduced a really cool technological idea, and being a computer geek myself (BS in computer science....not bragging, just context, lol) all kinds of possibilities were racing through my head.  But I think more could have been done with moral or social implications here. Sure it could be argued that we could look at the African society as mirroring our own, especially the bit about the father being afraid of new ideas because that''s really timeless of all of humanity, but a technology and project like this would not be ignored by the rest of the world and only used in third world relief.  There would be other companies competing for such technologies and someone trying to make lots and lots of money off of it...why wouldn't we set it up in the inner-cities in America?  Because then no one could profit off of it.

I realize that going into that much detail is more the realm of a novel or something much longer than could be on Escape Pod, but it could have been mentioned in the parts where the characters talk about what drove them to come to Africa to help....you know, before they had sex.

 ;D     
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Mr. Tweedy on September 07, 2007, 10:09:50 PM
I thought the story was very silly–silly in a naive, thinks-it's-smart-but-isn't kind of way, not a fun, tongue in cheek kind of way.

The idea that every African having a computer will solve Africa's problems is stupid.  This story is built on the myth that physical poverty is the root of evil, and that if everyone just had a certain critical amount of stuff, then we'd have peace on Earth.  Naive.  Evil comes from people, and no technology is going to make people less jealous, petty, greedy or lazy.  Spiritual change is necessary, and no amount of stuff dropped on people's heads can substitute.  This plot only worked because all of the African children were plastic noble savage stereotypes.  I notice none of the bright youngsters used their supercomputers to invent weapons, none of them became addicted to porn or wanted to play games all day, and they were all so eager to share!

It's also got racist undertones: The only way for black people to be prosperous is for white people to give them stuff.  This story has the kind of messages you'd expect to hear from the lips of a politician trying to exploit white guilt.

I'm not saying the technology can't be useful or play a role in improving conditions in impoverished areas: I recently donated some money to build windmills in Africa that will pump water for irrigation.  I understand that a windmill will be of assistance to the people there, but I'm not so stupid as to think that X number of windmills will bring about an African utopia.  The presentation in this story is pure head-in-the-clouds fantasy.

Along those lines, the technology described is ridiculous.  Supercomputers grow themselves from goop mixed in pots?  AI just happens once you build the right computer?  The scientific aspects of the story are just as ridiculous the social aspects.  It honestly would have been more satisfying if they're just called their wooden laptops "magic" and been done with it.

And the narrator was a moron.  Are we honestly supposed to believe that his curiosity about the miracles he sees in front of him can be put off–over and over again–by sex?  I cringe at his stupidity and resent the stereotype of the man who cares about nothing but sex.  And his clumsy double entendres were groan-inducing.

In sum, I think this is one of the dumbest stories I've ever read/heard.  Implausible on all fronts, with an obvious political agenda further souring it, every PC stereotype tossed in, and an imbecile narrating the whole mess.

Thumbs down.

And while I'm complaining, am I the only person who is tired of hearing about Cunning Minx in the intro to every episode?  I listen to hear science fiction, Steve, not to hear how wonderful your non-monogamous lifestyle is.  It's your show, of course, but these forums are for feedback, right?
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Jim on September 08, 2007, 12:32:33 AM
I, on the other hand, welcome details of Steve's non-monogamous lifestyle. He's making up for my non-anything lifestyle.

Remember how I complained a while back about characters who react to the fantastic technology around them with a mixture of disdain and irritation? Transcendence Express presented the exact opposite of that, and, as a technology buff, I appreciate it.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: SFEley on September 08, 2007, 04:53:09 AM
The idea that every African having a computer will solve Africa's problems is stupid.  This story is built on the myth that physical poverty is the root of evil, and that if everyone just had a certain critical amount of stuff, then we'd have peace on Earth.  Naive.

I know I should stay out of the feedback, but I feel a need here to repeat the closing quote from this episode, by Nicholas Negroponte (http://web.media.mit.edu/~nicholas/) in relation to his One Laptop Per Child (http://laptop.org) project, because I believe it's very important to the story and bears on your interpretation:

"If you take any world problem, any issue on the planet, the solution to that problem certainly includes education.  In education, the roadblock is the laptop."

The story wasn't about stuff at all, Mr. Tweedy.  It was about education.  The laptop wasn't the story; the transformation of the children's ways of thinking was the story.  If you try to look at it that way, as a question of education rather than resources, does it make any more sense?


Quote
And while I'm complaining, am I the only person who is tired of hearing about Cunning Minx in the intro to every episode?  I listen to hear science fiction, Steve, not to hear how wonderful your non-monogamous lifestyle is.  It's your show, of course, but these forums are for feedback, right?

Sure.  But I think you're leaning to hyperbole.  ...I should be above this, but you're sort of making it personal here, and it's been one of those days so I'm going to respond:

This week's intro was about Dragon*Con.  Minx was only mentioned once.  The sentence was: "One of the highlights of the convention was simply sitting down Sunday evening with Minx and another couple, and having a real conversation about real things."  The emphasis was not on Minx; it was on the conversation.

Is that really a gratuitous propagandizing of "non-monogamous lifestyle?"  How would you revise it to your tastes: should I not have mentioned Minx and simply said that I sat down with a couple?  Should I not have referenced the conversation, despite its relevance to the theme I was developing of small-scale social interaction?  Or should I not have talked about Dragon*Con at all?

(I also mentioned her name once in the closing notes, because she helped me with a French pronunciation -- which I mangled anyway.  Are you uncomfortable that I gave her credit for helping me?  If I had asked and credited Anna instead, would you feel better about it?)


On a more general note: do I talk about her in the intros?  Yes, I've talked about her.  I talk about Anna a lot more.  And there are people wanting to know when I'll do the next Geek Dad intro.  No one seems to object when I talk about Anna or Alex.  I've written 122 of these intros so far, and if I had to completely separate my personality and personal life from them I don't think I'd be able to deliver one every week.  I'm not an academic; I know science fiction, but not that well.  Not well enough to deliver a cold, dispassionate, and good essay every week.

So it comes to this by necessity: I reference my personal life in my intros at least some of the time, as my muse guides me, or I don't do intros.  More people seem to want intros than not want them, so I'm going to reference my personal life.  If that bothers you, sorry.  You can always skip ahead approximately 3.5 minutes.  (And if I find out enough people are doing that, maybe someday I'll put the work into an enhanced podcast with chapter stops.)

And if you're okay with my talking about my personal life: well, Minx is a part of it.  If you're not okay with my talking about her, but you are okay with my talking about Alex or Anna, I don't see that as my problem.  The "lifestyle" is what her podcast is about.  I'm just talking about me.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: SFEley on September 08, 2007, 05:10:53 AM
I remember hearing recently about a group that was trying to get laptops developed that would only cost something like $150 that would be used just for educational purposes in poor or otherwise developing countries.  Just like they did with the technology in this story.  Now, I think that's a great idea, but the problem I have with it is if we can do those things for poor countries, what about the places in our own that need those technologies and that kind of help as well?  Sure it's great to do something useful for the rest of the world for a change, but shouldn't we send some of that to the cities and poor areas of our own country, regardless of how developed and powerful we already are?

The project you're thinking of is the One Laptop Per Child (http://laptop.org) project, and the laptop is a $100 laptop.  (There's also been talk of eventually releasing a $200 consumer model, which would help fund the non-profit initiative, but I'm not sure what the status is of that.)  It's really an amazing piece of design work, given its constraints. 

They're targeting deployment in Third World countries first because the need is much greater there; most schools in developed countries offer children at least some access to computers, while in many poorer countries they're nearly nonexistent.  On a longer scale, yes, it is desirable that every child everywhere have global access to education and communication.  But the potential for large-scale social transformation is greater in some places than in others -- and those places tend to be ones where computers aren't already there.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: sirana on September 08, 2007, 07:30:58 AM
The project you're thinking of is the One Laptop Per Child (http://laptop.org) project, and the laptop is a $100 laptop. 

just to be accurate, they said they wouldn't be able to hit the 100$ mark in the beginning, the real price is expected to be between 130$ and 175$. they expect to get the manufacturing costs down to 100$ sometime in 08.
More  on the OLCP Wikipedia page  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olpc)
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Mr. Tweedy on September 08, 2007, 12:24:23 PM
...I should be above this, but you're sort of making it personal here, and it's been one of those days so I'm going to respond:

Above what?  Your response is nothing unwarranted.  (And it involves the content of the episode, so it isn't really even off topic.)

Is that really a gratuitous propagandizing of "non-monogamous lifestyle?"  How would you revise it to your tastes: should I not have mentioned Minx and simply said that I sat down with a couple?  Should I not have referenced the conversation, despite its relevance to the theme I was developing of small-scale social interaction?  Or should I not have talked about Dragon*Con at all?

Obviously, my ideas and sensitivities to this topic are outside the mainstream.  The propagandizing strikes me as both frequent and gratuitous, but I hardly expect you to revise the content of your show for the sake of one listener.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Pink Shift on September 08, 2007, 05:35:11 PM
After listening to this story
 I was left with only one thought:
 What was that all about?
It was a bit of a jumble.

I agree with most
 if not all
 of Mr. Tweedy's comments.
I agree with
 the comments that the AI references
 didn't' lead anywhere;
 the characterisation of the children
 (if this was Africa; why did the children have European first names?),
 and the racial undertones.

If I didn't know
 the story was written by an adult
 I would have thought it was written by
 an intermediate school child or
 Lauren Caitlin Upton.



"If you take any world problem, any issue on the planet, the solution to that problem certainly includes education.  In education, the roadblock is the laptop."

The story wasn't about stuff at all, Mr. Tweedy.  It was about education.  The laptop wasn't the story; the transformation of the children's ways of thinking was the story.  If you try to look at it that way, as a question of education rather than resources, does it make any more sense?

I agree with the concept that
 education is the solution
 but
 I feel
 the story does not support that.
The children are in a school room setting
 but the teacher is not shown teaching.
The teacher mixes the ingredients
 for the computer
 and that is about it.
She is not shown
 directing the education of the children.

the transformation of the children's ways of thinking was the story. 

We were not shown
 how the children thought
 prior to getting the computers
 so I do not feel
 the story does not supports this idea.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: plantedbypiggies on September 08, 2007, 05:49:07 PM
This story was mixed for me.

I really like the idea of the One Laptop Per Child campaign. Technology should not be the plaything for the elitists. Giving kids a solid set of job skills (as well as the equipment) that they can use to improve their own living conditions is a great thing, too.

I was very interested in the biological quantum computer ideas. Silicon is going to become a limited computing medium very soon, so something new will have to come along to replace it.

However, I felt there was a real human element lacking in this story.  Yes, the main characters had a wonderful motivation for going out and helping other people, which was great. But they weren't really seen overcoming anything. He was only trying to figure out what she was doing, and she already entered the story with all the pieces of the puzzle. Everything was already solved in my mind. The flashbacks didn't really do anything to flesh out the fact that everything had already been figured out.

Maybe my main complaint stems from my personal viewpoint on the human condition. I believe that humans will do what is best for them in the short term, not what is best for the group in the long run. I wish the story had thrown in a bit more conflict in that direction. For example, some of the quantum computers didn't work on the first run. The teacher makes all of the children share, which was fine. But I think that at least one kid could complain about having to share the computer they worked so hard to make. That one child could prove to be a foil for the teacher throughout the rest of the story. A little more conflict like that would really add volumes to the story from my point of view.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Bolomite on September 08, 2007, 07:52:16 PM
I am relatively new to EscapePod but I have done my best to catch, listening to every story in the feed and I am subscribed to the Classic feed also.  I have to say that this is my favorite story yet.  The idea that the most sophisticate computer known to man is so simple that it can be made in the middle of nowhere Africa, without any sort of man made technology is the sort of irony that abounds in nature.  Look how simple a bird is and then how complicated our attempts are to achieve flight.  Or how about the thousands of years of metallurgy that goes into making my steel kitchen knife, but nature supplies obsidian which isn't such a bad alternative.  How many drugs have we made, that have all kinds of less than desirable side effects, only to find something in nature that does a great job and doesn't cause problems. 

As mentioned earlier, the cluelessness of the narrator didn't bother me.  He was a medial worker, so why would he understand how a BIKCO works?  But the fact that he is fascinated by the learning environment shows that while he doesn't understand the mechanics of what is going on, he does understand that something important is happening. 

And I don't get the racist tones mentioned by a previous poster.  In fact, if anything I think the opposite is true.  The kids have learned that industrialization is not the way to go in the long run and reject the idea of accepting our tech / infrastructure.  Personally I say more power to them.  Having alternatives to our way of running things can only make the world better.

While it may be off topic, regarding the previous post complaining about the intro, I could care less.  I enjoy hearing about the snippets of Steve's life in all of its aspects.  Maybe its the nerd in me, but since I don't have a life, its nice to hear about those who are more fortunate.  I don't think its right of anyone to judge because I know I wouldn't want everyone judging my life.  I hope he doesn't change the current format.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: raygunray on September 08, 2007, 09:21:37 PM
I like it when a host or author "removes the podium" and talks about themselves.  It's like they're sharing themselves to make them nonthreatening while remaining a likeable authority on their subject. 

As I believe education is exactly what the Third World needs as a first step out of poverty, a $100.00 laptop is overcompensating.  We're teaching those kids to be dependent on computers rather than using the onboard supercomputer in their head.  Becoming intimate with books is integral to teaching critical thinking skills.  Computers may aid by graphically representing ideas and models, but a teacher showing a kid to use the tools in their head unaided by technology will make them more effective problem solvers.  Computer only enhance critical thinking by speeding up the process and interconnecting other problem solvers.

Anyway, in places where they don't even have fresh water and electricity, how are they going to plug in those things?
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Reggie on September 08, 2007, 11:19:34 PM
Anyway, in places where they don't even have fresh water and electricity, how are they going to plug in those things?

That's why you make them out of bio-goo.

Anyway, again, I think such laptop programs are a great idea, because they are great tools, but as was stated above, they're just tools. 

The story made everything work a little too easily.  Some form of conflict would have been great.  Maybe one of those flashback scenes could have described some of what I mentioned earlier, where corporations tried to monopolize the market and there was some kind of struggle between various sides on the argument, and in the end the characters in the story could have been made even more heroic for how they broke from the norm to do what they did, which we can assume, of course, but still, the story could have run a few minutes longer.

And I would still rather see cheap laptops go to help schools in Detroit (which is near where I live), maybe they do ultimately plan on doing that for our cities, but that needs to be discussed.  If we actively show how we'll be able to help EVERYBODY I think there'd be much more support.  Because, as it stands, all I see is about how it will help Africa, and although I support that and understand what's going on, a lot of people just really don't care.  They might care just a little more if they saw how it could help their cities and states as well.


And as for the other issue that keeps getting mentioned here, I didn't want to get into it, because I doubt Steve wants everyone to comment, but I don't mind hearing about the personal stuff.  A lot of times it puts stories into context.  Our host is still the one that picks the stories because he likes them, and if there is a specific reason or connection to a particular story, I like to hear about it.  And when there's something else on his mind, well, it has become my understanding that that is exactly what being part of a podcasting community is for.

Also, Steve, I want you to know that your son is my hero....because he got to meet R2-D2.

 ;D   
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Peter Tupper on September 09, 2007, 04:46:32 AM
Call me pessimistic or cynical, but I didn't buy this story. It was just too optimistic (I might go so far as to call it naive).

The quantum computers not only spontaneously evolve to sentience, but they are also nice and helpful. The kids not only love to use them, but don't use them for anything that isn't nice and helpful (no porn, no viruses, no Nigerian prince scams). Nothing human, and nothing made by humans, is that perfect.

The one scene of conflict in the whole story, with the boy who criticizes his father's farming technique, just fizzles out into nothing. Maybe his father can't bear to be seen with his son talking back to him and pulls him out of the school.

I have a theory that a science fiction story should be a thought experiment. "If we do this, what will happen then, knowing what we know about human nature?" There's no testing of the idea in this story, no internal critique of the idea that laptops in the developing world Will Make Everything Perfect for Everybody Forever. Don't get me wrong, I think the OLPC project is worthwhile, but once those laptops get out into the world, people will start using them for unforeseen applications, some of which will not be nice.

For that matter, where's the electricity to run all this stuff coming from?
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: swdragoon on September 09, 2007, 06:10:58 AM
almost a MEH but not quite
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: akadruid on September 09, 2007, 08:43:07 AM
I quite liked this story, I think primarily because I once tried to write a story much like it.

The whole concept is very tricky to cover properly in a short story.  The art is in explaining enough of the techy background, the cultural background, the political background, and the characters without blocking the flow of the story.  It's made more difficult by the fact that you have to make them believable to an audience who might know a lot about what you're talking about, and are likely to be put off by technobabble, press shot stereotypes or oversimplification.

I thought the author made a fair job of balancing these.  I'd have like to see a bit more detail in the description of the miraculous BIKOS (BiQCos?).  There was just too much of a jump in the Discovery Of AI -> Wonder Computer From Gunk process to make believable.  And a fair bit of the 'flash back to Holland' could have been sacrificed to make the setting and the children more 3-dimensional.

Did anyone else think that the sexy computer scientist lady who steals an AI to save the world sounds a bit too much like a lonely nerd's fantasy to be realistic??!!

Overall though, a fun and optimistic look at an interesting and realistic concept - more of the same please Steve!!
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: ajames on September 09, 2007, 10:22:09 AM
The narration of this story just didn't work for me.  It seemed the story was told through the eyes of Ferris Beuller on vacation in Africa with his randy super-smart girlfriend rather than someone in Doctor's without Frontiers.  I would have liked to have seen a bit of the work the boyfriend was involved in [Doctors without Frontiers have to deal with a lot more than just medical problems] - it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a parallel story-line to contrast or complement the primary one.

On the other hand, if the author was going for a Ferris Bueller knock-off, then my beef is with the rest of the story, for it is just too good and interesting and gets in the way of enjoying Ferris and his girlfriend's crazy antics.  And where's the principal?

Finally, the double entendres didn't just make me groan, they made it difficult for me to take the rest of the story seriously and dread the next one [for you knew there was always another one on the way].

One thumb up, one thumb down.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: mjn9 on September 09, 2007, 02:18:01 PM
Finally, the double entendres didn't just make me groan, they made it difficult for me to take the rest of the story seriously and dread the next one [for you knew there was always another one on the way].

I have to agree.  It really distracted from the story and I couldn't really see any point to it except for thinking the author was writing for a 13 year-old boy.


The idea that every African having a computer will solve Africa's problems is stupid.  This story is built on the myth that physical poverty is the root of evil, and that if everyone just had a certain critical amount of stuff, then we'd have peace on Earth.  Naive. 

Just the other day my 6 year-old son was watching an educational video with us that mentioned GDP, which made some remark about the more stuff a society produces, the more stuff their people can buy, and the better their quality of life.

He very quickly said "Why?  More stuff doesn't mean you have a better life."

Having spent 3 years in the Peace Corps, one of the things that made me most uncomfortable was one people kept asking me for my stuff.  They wanted by walkman.  They wanted my sleeping bag.  They wanted my backpack.  They kept saying, "You're rich.  You can buy another one."  It drove me almost crazy.  But I didn't want to give that stuff up because I couldn't buy more while I was in the Peace Corps, and honestly it made my life there more comfortable.  And if I gave it to one, I felt like I'd have to give it to all.

The Peace Corps used to strongly caution us about giving out medicines to sick people we met.  I can't imagine what they would advise us about AI biological quantum computers.

Half a thumb up for making me think a little.  One and a half thumbs down for the execution of the story.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: eytanz on September 09, 2007, 02:36:00 PM
The one scene of conflict in the whole story, with the boy who criticizes his father's farming technique, just fizzles out into nothing. Maybe his father can't bear to be seen with his son talking back to him and pulls him out of the school.

It's the same kid that at the end of the story builds his father a computer.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Zathras on September 09, 2007, 05:03:44 PM
The narration of this story just didn't work for me.  It seemed the story was told through the eyes of Ferris Beuller on vacation in Africa with his randy super-smart girlfriend rather than someone in Doctor's without Frontiers.  I would have liked to have seen a bit of the work the boyfriend was involved in.

Funny reference to Ferris Bueller, that's kind of what I thought as I was listening.  Overall, I thought the story was OK, the AI parts were interesting and kept me wanting to listen.   

I agree that education is important to the third world nations but just as important is population management.  Isn't the primary reason why of the third world countries are struggling due to the fact that they simply have too many people compared to available resources (fresh water, quantities of food)?  Cheap laptops will make people smarter but will they lead to better living conditions?   I guess they will in the long run.   I'm wondering if religious organizations/beliefs dictate a policy of "be fruitful and multiply". 
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Reggie on September 09, 2007, 06:12:18 PM
Population control is something that would come from better education.

But whatever group happens to be in charge of various education programs will be educating with their own agendas.  So we know how religious groups feel about reproductive health and sexual education in this country, and we know who funds and runs many of the relief organizations in under developed countries......
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: JonCayen on September 09, 2007, 11:53:21 PM
This episode gave me hope. For too long have I been plagued by dreams of A.I's taking over the whole. Instead I was shown that they might help us grow up as a race. For too long i have been frustrated by the complex problems of global poverty. I know that if we really wanted to as a race to get rid of it we could. It would take a lot of people working together and long term commitment to it. I find it refreshing that there may be another way. I am not saying that the only way to better the world is only through education, but to me I think it is an important part. I saw people being given the tools to build a better life for themselves. I know that a magic wand cannot be waved and everything is made better. I know that it will take time, but a person can lose hope in that time. This show gave me hope, that maybe our problems can be solved. Sure you can say its been done with shows like Star Trek, but they never gave us a how. This story gave us the beginning of a better world.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Rachel Swirsky on September 10, 2007, 03:28:31 AM
"The propagandizing "

Is mentioning, peripherally, something the listener disagrees with propaganda?

If so, you have filled this thread with your own propaganda.

Re: $100 laptops:

I have a friend who worked on the OS for those as part of her thesis at MIT. Really exciting, interesting work.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Leon Kensington on September 10, 2007, 04:36:13 AM
Okay story.  Just one comment on it.  "You got your globalization in my scifi!"

Story:  6 out of 10                                 Reading:  9 out of 10 (Jack frakking Mangan!)
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: sirana on September 10, 2007, 12:24:06 PM
Big thumbs down from me as well. Partly because of some of the things MrTweedy has mentioned, but mostly because:
No conflict => no story
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Mr. Tweedy on September 10, 2007, 01:39:26 PM
If so, you have filled this thread with your own propaganda.

True.  I don't deny that.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: SFEley on September 10, 2007, 03:40:32 PM
I agree that education is important to the third world nations but just as important is population management.  Isn't the primary reason why of the third world countries are struggling due to the fact that they simply have too many people compared to available resources (fresh water, quantities of food)?

Education can improve these things.  There are farming methods that can be directly applied to increase food yields in Africa for small farmers (do a Google on "SG 2000 Africa" sometime); it's largely a matter of getting in and getting the farmers to try them.  Water's a hard problem, but there is technology to address it, and introducing better sanitation methods doesn't hurt.  And public health is more directly affected by education than by anything else.

As for population, it's globally observable that more educated populations tend to have fewer children.  The parts of the world where population is shrinking due to fertility rates are highly developed countries (Japan, most of Europe).  Last I heard, the United States was hovering at about or just slightly under replacement level if you don't take immigration into account.

So you can't just say "Never mind education, the problem is population management and food production."  Education is a part of everything.  It's critical to solving all these problems.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Mr. Tweedy on September 10, 2007, 04:49:40 PM
So you can't just say "Never mind education, the problem is population management and food production."  Education is a part of everything.  It's critical to solving all these problems.

That is absolutely true.  "Knowledge is power" is a literal fact, not just a trite aphorism for teachers to motivate their students.  Education means teaching people how to help themselves, equipping them to understand their own situations so that they are able to make better choices.  It is tempting to look at a problem like poverty as purely physical, as a matter of not enough of X in a certain place, and if we could just put more X in that place, then the problem would vanish.  But problems are rarely caused by a simple lack of X.  More likely, poverty is caused because the people in the area are either doing something to cause it or not doing something to fix it.

There are, essentially, two approaches to eliminating problems like poverty.  One is to toss money/stuff at the situation.  This attacks the symptoms, and (while often necessary) it does nothing to eliminate the cause of the problem.  The other is other attack the cause, to remove the corrupt systems and ignorance that lead to poverty, replacing them with just systems and knowledge.  Obviously, education is key to this: People who better understand their world are equipped to make better choices.

...But I don't think this story was about eduction, which is a prime reason why I don't like it.  What, exactly, were the Zambians taught by their European benefactors?  Math?  Civics?  Biology?  Agriculture?  Nothing like that is recorded.  What we see instead is the Zambians becoming dependent upon AIs that solve problems for them.

The key example is the boy trying to get his father to use more efficient farming techniques.  Did the boy get this better farming method through eduction?  Was he taught about plant life cycles, about irrigation, about resource management?  No: The computer ran a simulation and told him what to do.  The story does not end with the boy teaching his father how to be a better farmer.  It ends with him giving his father a computer which will run simulations and tell him what to do.

The Zambians are given machines who will do their thinking for them and give them orders to follow.  They are made dependent upon the charity of benevolent AIs, and–as you'll see if you run your own mental simulation–such charity would free them from the need to know anything at all.  What use is education or insight when the quantum oracle will reveal the optimum course of action?  The computers being voice-activated, there isn't even any need to be literate.

And so I say this story is all about giving stuff.  Education is irrelevant: The story would work out just the same if the Europeans had distributed magic wands instead of BIKOS.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: swdragoon on September 10, 2007, 04:55:18 PM
mr eley is corect the problem is view point "education" dosent mean a 4 year degee at a major university. in this place it needs to start with 
 crop rotation, defence (often over looked and under scored) carpentry, pluming, food prep, and other things many first worlders beleve to be uneducated vocations.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: swdragoon on September 10, 2007, 04:56:12 PM
still did not like the story
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: SFEley on September 10, 2007, 05:11:21 PM
...But I don't think this story was about eduction, which is a prime reason why I don't like it.  What, exactly, were the Zambians taught by their European benefactors?  Math?  Civics?  Biology?  Agriculture?  Nothing like that is recorded.  What we see instead is the Zambians becoming dependent upon AIs that solve problems for them.

I think this is a solid viewpoint, and a fair analysis of the story.  I don't think it's the only possible viewpoint and analysis; but I wanted to be explicit that my arguing about the primacy of education in this thread is a generality.  Saying it's important isn't the same as saying this story developed the theme effectively.  (I think it did, but it's cool to see thoughtful debate on the subject.)
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Bdoomed on September 10, 2007, 06:38:01 PM
The idea that every African having a computer will solve Africa's problems is stupid.  This story is built on the myth that physical poverty is the root of evil, and that if everyone just had a certain critical amount of stuff, then we'd have peace on Earth.  Naive.
This story was not about having 'stuff'... its the idea of educating these people so that they can better their own lives.  For instance, they run the projection for becoming industrialized, and decide that getting 'stuff' would be a very bad idea.
This story is built not on the Myth that physical poverty is the root of evil, but its built on the fact that education will help people better their lives more than simply food/water/money aid from higher powers.  Teach a man to fish.

...But I don't think this story was about eduction, which is a prime reason why I don't like it.  What, exactly, were the Zambians taught by their European benefactors?  Math?  Civics?  Biology?  Agriculture?  Nothing like that is recorded.  What we see instead is the Zambians becoming dependent upon AIs that solve problems for them.
They ask the AIs to solve the big problems for them, like the projections.  this, however, is no different from the 1st world countries.  But the main reason for the bio comps are to teach the children.  they arent just solving the problems for the children, but the children are learning from the computers.  Notice that they realize that bettering their lives by becoming industrialized is a bad thing, and they are mature enough to realize that and stay the way they are.
Anyways, how is Zambians becoming dependent on AIs any worse than us becoming dependent on AIs?  In the intro, Steve said its the Singularity from the bottom-up.  This story has the US developing AIs, and one person giving them to the Zambians.  The only difference is that the US starts out at a higher level of education and money.

(i feel like im not getting my point across... for some reason i cant write clearly now... lack of sleep maybe?)

Quote
The Zambians are given machines who will do their thinking for them and give them orders to follow.
Because that is SO much worse than googling what you need, or looking it up on Wikipedia.  Its the SAME thing!  Replace American (or probably European i duno from experiance tho) children with the Zambians and you have the same situation.  Undereducated people who are using computers to learn, and are using computers to help with their daily lives.


that aside, i REALLY liked the part where the AI said that a better solution would naturally have to be beneficial for all.  Humans cannot be made obsolete.  :)
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Zathras on September 10, 2007, 07:05:37 PM
So you can't just say "Never mind education, the problem is population management and food production." 

Gawd, I would never say that and I hope my post didn't come across that way.  I do understand that education is important, it just pains me to all these kids born in to a situtation where they will struggle to get enough food to make it to adulthood.  I would hope that this new, improved education will include family planning education.   
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: mt house on September 10, 2007, 07:11:32 PM
I need to write down that recipe, now what do I paint on the wood again? I liked it, although I could've done without the bedroom scenes. Sex sells, I guess, but I didn't think the story needed it.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: GrantHenninger on September 10, 2007, 08:29:44 PM
My biggest problem with this episode was the sex.  I'm not one to normally say that sex is unnecessary, but the sex in this story was unnecessary.  It felt like a crutch used to drag out the story instead of Liona just explaining what she was up to.  I understand it's important to show and not tell a story, especially for a medium like podcasting, but a story that's really about an idea like this needs to do a better job of dragging out the story in a plausible, realistic and non-repetitive way. 

Another thing I didn't like about the story, and this is probably because of the medium, was that fact that time wasn't linear.  When I'm reading a book I have an easier time following time jumps but listening to one gets hard to follow along.  However, I didn't have the same problem with {Now + n, Now - n}, so it might have just been this specific story.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: darusha on September 10, 2007, 10:55:57 PM
I had conflicting reaction to this story.  On one hand – hooray for techy near-future science.  And the story felt like a bit like a promotional brochure for the OLPC, of which I have a very strong (if highly unconventional) positive opinion (http://goldenhammer.darusha.ca/?p=147). 

But I have to agree with most of the negative comments.  The technology sounds really cool, but I just couldn’t suspend my disbelief enough to buy it.  The characters were one-dimensional and pretty uninteresting.  The sex sections were lame, sophomoric, unnecessary and worst of all, not at all hot.  And I was expecting a different ending – a much more unpleasant one. 

Finally, it reminded me of all the things that make me uncomfortable (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/13/AR2007071301714.html) about us “first worlders” trying to help everyone else.  That uncomfortable feeling is a good thing, I think, so because of it I give this one a solid 50/50 (look at all the great discussion it generated). 
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: ajames on September 11, 2007, 10:31:35 AM
A couple of comments on the comments

What about getting laptops for the poor in the US?

It's being done [or at least considered].
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2007/04/26/us_schools_may_join_inexpensive_laptop_project/ (http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2007/04/26/us_schools_may_join_inexpensive_laptop_project/)

Where are they going to get electricity for the laptops?

I'm pretty sure the laptops are powered through hand cranks.

Laptops are just tools, you don't need them for education.

Tools are a large part of what has gotten us where we are today.  If you could own a house built with tools, or one without tools, which would you choose?

This story is racist

I'm beginning to think if Moby Dick made it on to Podcast somehow, we'd soon discover what a racist story it is.  Why is the white whale the only whale worth pursuing?

Steve's 'propagandizing'

Steve threw me for a loop the with his intro to the story about the school of lust.  Wait a minute, I thought, doesn't he have a wife and child?  Maybe his wife is this other podcaster he's talking about?  Is he divorced?  Didn't he just go on a vacation with his wife?  What's going on?

The upshot though is that now I know, in a limited way, someone who lives life a bit differently than I do.  Which IMO is a good thing, for it is one thing to know that people somewhere out there live differently than you do, and it is another thing to know people who live differently than you do.  While of course Steve doesn't represent all polyamorists, his openness about his polyamory diversified my world a little, as otherwise I would have assumed that he was a serial monogamist, like me.  If Steve's polyamory became the thrust of his intros and outros, I would probably tire of it fairly quickly, as I don't listen to escape pod for that.  But if his polyamory shows up now and then because it is part of his life, that's to be expected given the style he has chosen. 

re: the discussion regarding education and starvation

Really just a side note, and most people probably already know this, but by the year 2000 the number of people who were clinically obese was greater than the number of people who were malnourished.  And obesity is growing in developing nations, too.  Education about what we eat and how it is produced is important for all of us, as our U.S. tax payer dollars have gone towards subsidizing processed foods in the US [and exported elsewhere] for a long time now.  It is cheaper, per calorie, to buy junk food than healthy food.

Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Listener on September 11, 2007, 12:51:04 PM
I didn't like this story.

The echo-y quality of the reading was disturbing until I got used to it, and in places, the reader was halting, as if he'd recorded, re-recorded, and spliced, without looking at continuity of the recording itself.  He acted Liona well, though.

The story itself, I think, had a very misleading title.  I expected something like "The Train Job" (Firefly episode) meets "AI" or "Bicentennial Man".  I also found the description of the story by Steve (in the intro) a little misleading too.

As for the story itself... I agree with some who wondered about the Christian names, though I disagree about the racist angle; the fact that the main characters were white didn't necessarily mean that only white people could do what David and Liona were doing, IMO.  I also agree with the idea that the laptops were solving the problems for the Zambians, although the story did say the kids were running simulations, so I get the feeling that, had it been a novella, we might have seen the kids using the BIKOs to learn how to do the simulations.  As a short-story, the amount of tech that could be given to the reader while still remaining "short" was limited.  I also agree that there wasn't nearly enough overt conflict, although the fact that I'm American may mean that I'm missing the conflict that the author intended.

I also found the sex to be a little too gratuitous.  Did we really need to know that Liona packed a lot of lingerie, and also some sex toys?  Did it really advance the story?

The idea of the BIKOs was cool, and the tech explanation of them, as a Star Trek geek, made enough sense that I could appreciate how the BIKOs were built and how they worked.

Overall, I think the story tried to do too much, as activist fiction often does (not saying the author IS an activist, just that his fiction has an activist message).  Or, at least, to do too much in too short a period of time.  And that, for me, is where it fell down.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Jim on September 11, 2007, 01:24:09 PM
I also found the sex to be a little too gratuitous.  Did we really need to know that Liona packed a lot of lingerie, and also some sex toys?  Did it really advance the story?
I thought it made her seem more human, like Fox Mulder's addiction to pornography in early episodes of the X-Files.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Listener on September 11, 2007, 02:40:10 PM
I also found the sex to be a little too gratuitous.  Did we really need to know that Liona packed a lot of lingerie, and also some sex toys?  Did it really advance the story?
I thought it made her seem more human, like Fox Mulder's addiction to pornography in early episodes of the X-Files.

I never watched the X-Files.  *ducks*  I suppose you have a point, but I think the average reader might need it explained as "she packed that stuff, so she gave up room for some other stuff" maybe?

I have nothing against sex in stories.  I can't, since I write a little erotica here and there.  Just, like I said, I personally don't feel it developed the plot any.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: doctorclark on September 11, 2007, 02:51:10 PM
The above comments re: education/globalization/developing-the-third-world have been a good read, and have articulated for me some of the concepts floating around my head as I listened to the story.  That being said, this story was so-so.  I agree with the numerous comments on lack of conflict (i.e. plot), and the characters were a bit bland for me (though Liona shows some dynamism by finding a creative way to sacrifice her immediate ambitions a little bit and incorporate them in a plan to be with the one she loves).  I can’t decide if I agree with the sex-as-gratuitous comments: the author uses those scenes (if ham-handedly) to delay the exposition of the AI laptops (i.e. those scenes are plot devices).

Also, the BiQCos thematically reminded me of the Young Lady’s Illustrated Primer in Neil Stephenson’s Diamond Age.  The small nation of Chinese girls midway through the novel, who each receive a Primer, would have undoubtedly had classroom dynamics very much like the kids in Trancendence had.  For all of you fellow techies who loved the Q-comp tech in this short story: I heartily recommend Diamond Age (which has more geeky tech than you can shake carbon nanotube at).
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Rigger on September 11, 2007, 05:37:31 PM
I also found the sex to be a little too gratuitous.  Did we really need to know that Liona packed a lot of lingerie, and also some sex toys?  Did it really advance the story?
I thought it made her seem more human, like Fox Mulder's addiction to pornography in early episodes of the X-Files.

I never watched the X-Files.  *ducks*  I suppose you have a point, but I think the average reader might need it explained as "she packed that stuff, so she gave up room for some other stuff" maybe?

I have nothing against sex in stories.  I can't, since I write a little erotica here and there.  Just, like I said, I personally don't feel it developed the plot any.

I found the story entertaining but as many people pointed here, not exactly clear on some of it's concepts. It was hard to distinguish if the BiQcos were really assiting in the education of the young people, or if they were simply providing instructions and orders. I also disliked how Liona always changed the subject about her work and project constantly.

After all, a good relationship is built on communication. I'm sure the narrator would have been a lot more "into" their sessions if she would just talk to him, and treat him like a partner, rather than giving him teasing tidbits and then going for what she wanted.

I suppose it did give her character a extra edge in a sense, but as others have said before me, it did not come across as very useful or even interesting to the plot. Honestly I kept getting a feeling of "See? Geeky girls can be nymphos too! Look! They are having sex again!"
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: DKT on September 11, 2007, 05:43:36 PM
I don't have a lot to add about the story that hasn't already been said.  I definitely don't mind sex in stories and I think the sex in this story was used okay as a plot device, something that kept the protagonist from getting to his goal sooner.  But it would've been better if those double-entendres had not actually made me wince.  Listener criticized Liona packing sex toys and lingerie.  For me, that was actually the best sex part of the whole story.  It told more about her than the double-entendres did.

There's two reasons I listen to Escape Pod every week.  One is because I enjoy hearing SF/F stories I might not have otherwise.  Even if, like this week, the story didn't blow me away I'm still happy to be exposed to a variety of SF.  I give a lot of credit both to Escape Pod and Pseudopod for having such a wide variety of stories.  

The other reason is because Steve puts so much of himself into it.  Clearly, it's a work of passion for him.  If he didn't talk about stuff going on in his personal life, or didn't talk so candidly about some of the feedback he received from various episodes, I wouldn't like this podcast nearly as much as I do.  I'd probably still listen to it, because for me it's the most convenient way to get great SF/F, but I'm not sure I'd make myself late to work while it downloads on my ipod Thursday mornings.

I don't completely get the polyamorous thing.  Honestly, I've never been seriously exposed to it and I'm pretty sure it's not my thing.  But whatever.  I've never felt like Steve's tried to propagandize his views on me and if that's his thing, then I don't mind hearing about it.  Because even though I've never met Steve, I care about him and enjoy hearing what's going in his life.  He strikes me as a pretty humble dude, especially the way he deals with other people (myself included).  I've got nothing but respect for him and I appreciate him sharing different perspectives with me, whether they be personal or fictional.  
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: SFEley on September 11, 2007, 06:38:17 PM
I don't completely get the polyamorous thing.  Honestly, I've never been seriously exposed to it and I'm pretty sure it's not my thing.  But whatever.  I've never felt like Steve's tried to propagandize his views on me and if that's his thing, then I don't mind hearing about it.  Because even though I've never met Steve, I care about him and enjoy hearing what's going in his life.  He strikes me as a pretty humble dude, especially the way he deals with other people (myself included).  I've got nothing but respect for him and I appreciate him sharing different perspectives with me, whether they be personal or fictional.

Thanks, DKT, ajames, Mr. Tweedy, and everyone else.  I really do appreciate these thoughts.

For what it's worth, anyone who really wants to know too much about my personal life should friend me on LiveJournal (http://sfeley.livejournal.com).  I started personal blogging there in March.  Most of the relationship stuff is behind a filter, but that's just to keep it off the search engines; in practice I'll add just about anyone who friends me.  If you go back through the archives, you're guaranteed sixteen times the Surgeon General's recommended yearly dose of relationship drama.  >8->  And you'll see how much stuff I don't talk about on Escape Pod. 

As for polyamory: I'm not pushing it as a cause.  When the word comes up, it's usually because I like to promote Minx's podcast when I mention her; that's what podcasters do.  (I'm also "Steve Eley of Escape Pod" when friends talk about me in their podcasts.)  Anyone who really wants my perspective on it is welcome to ask, either privately or in a Gallimaufry thread.  Meanwhile, I'm not trying to tear down monogamy as a system or anything.  All relationships come down to who you are and how you treat people.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Rigger on September 11, 2007, 07:35:46 PM
All relationships come down to who you are and how you treat people.

Very true Steve.

I was raised in a polyamorous environment; I have been seeing the effects of that lifestyle and monogamy for decades. While I think both can work, both can just as easily fail spectacularly. Usually due to a lack of communication or honesty. I'd be very entertained to see people's opinions about the two relationship models in another thread.

But having recently listened to almost every episode of Escapepod; I don't think that polyamory has been pushed as an issue or a lifestyle choice for people to adhere to, I think it has been a nice glimpse into who you are, Steve. Honestly, you are perhaps the reason I enjoy the podcast so much, the personality you bring to the intros has increased my enjoyment, encouraged me to join the forums, and even helped me get back to my own writing projects to a certain extent.

Your excitement with your new partner is understandable, and encouraged. I just think it might have caught a few people off guard to see the enthusiasm. My primary partner pointed out to me that references to her site and projects seemed to occur more than most other plugs you have done in the past. However she is more sensitive to the subject than I am due to her dislike of Minx.

But this is just one opinion. Granted mine is tainted due to my partner's opinion, but I wanted to provide another prospective. I applogize if this somehow adds fuel.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Monty Grue on September 12, 2007, 12:34:49 AM
Quote
Also, if BIKO is short for Biological Quantum Computer, why is it spelt BIKO and not BIQCO?

The computer is probably named after Steve Biko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biko), a noted anti-apartheid activist in South Africa in the 1960s and early 1970s.

The story didn't do much for me either. 
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: SFEley on September 12, 2007, 05:42:08 AM
Your excitement with your new partner is understandable, and encouraged. I just think it might have caught a few people off guard to see the enthusiasm. My primary partner pointed out to me that references to her site and projects seemed to occur more than most other plugs you have done in the past. However she is more sensitive to the subject than I am due to her dislike of Minx.

Heh.  Now you've got me curious if your partner actually knows Minx and dislikes her personally, or just dislikes the podcast.  Either way I'm not offended; I'm not going to throw down the gauntlet at everyone who impugns her honor or anything.

In any case, it looks like there's a thread in Gallimaufry (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1047.0) to talk about this stuff now.  Thanks, Mr. Tweedy.  I'm going to respectfully request that all Minxish matters be moved over there, so that y'all can return to your deep cynicism about this story.  >8->
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: FNH on September 13, 2007, 09:35:51 AM
This story didn't work for me.

Nothing happened, no conflict, no chase, no stress, no anything.

The pointless sex references were simply there.  It didn't build character, just seemed to be a cheap-shot titilation thing.

Had a lot of potential areas where interest could have been built up. Secret projects, rich vs poor, unwanted help, technology vs tradition.

I'm really surprised this story was picked. 
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: milo on September 15, 2007, 02:17:32 AM
There are two things I didn't like about this story. The first was the reading. The "deadpan" thing went a little too far. Without some inflection to give each character his or her own voice, I often had trouble figuring out who was speaking. Only frequent rewinding and context clues helped me out.

The second thing I didn't like is that this piece doesn't seem like a complete story. It feels like the author pulled the middle out of a larger story, leaving us without the beginning or the end. I'm a traditionalist; I believe a good story needs some sort of central conflict for the protagonist to overcome. The near total lack of conflict left me wanting more. Regardless of whether one agrees with my rather staid views on storytelling, it seems likely that the author has given us one or two chapters from a novel in progress -- a common enough approach for those who are trying to get a larger work into print, but not always fair to the reader (or listener).

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

Milo
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Biscuit on September 18, 2007, 12:02:00 AM
The radio/voice actor part of me kicked in listening to this story - the dead pan delivery didn't work for me.

Liked the content (again, apart from the sex), and it seems all parts of the discussion are covered here. I'm in the "Give Education, Not Money" camp.

It seems the western society cynic in us all is very quick to kick in - perhaps there really are innocent societies still out there, and they really will do good while that innocence remains.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Russell Nash on September 18, 2007, 08:26:33 AM
There has been a lot of talk about how useless a laptop is to poor people.  I would like to just add one little point.  Books.  Books are big, heavy, expensive, and hard to distribute.  Once you have the laptops there (they also have the same initial problems), these problems are greatly reduced.  One file comes in, bing, bam, boom, every child has his own copy.  The idea isn't to teach some kid leaving in the bush how to use Word.  The idea is to make ideas spread faster.  Information is power.  Let's make the information available.

my $.25
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: swdragoon on September 18, 2007, 05:51:30 PM
so are we pirating theas texts or are you going to get the textbook publishers to change bissnes modles faster than the riaa.
sorry
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Russell Nash on September 18, 2007, 05:56:59 PM
so are we pirating theas texts or are you going to get the textbook publishers to change bissnes modles faster than the riaa.
sorry

There are huge amounts of things that are public domain or are freely distributable. 
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: swdragoon on September 18, 2007, 06:12:26 PM
you are corect. and I'm not trying to be a pain just point out that what should be a good soultion can easly be derailed by bad buisness modles. also i like to poke the riaa whenever possable.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: DDog on September 18, 2007, 07:30:10 PM
My first complaint about this story was the sex. Sex in a story is either the point (some value of relationships/erotica focus), integrated seamlessly (nicely well-rounded), non-existent (valuable focus on other things, we hope), or annoying (annoying). I love sex, but the sex in this story was jarring and was filled with horrible puns in a story that wasn't amusing over all; and therefore, annoying. Plot device, sure, but something else could have been found to fulfill that purpose, the sex could have been written better (or narrated better, that is a factor), or the sexual themes could have been explored more as character development instead of just thrown in there.

I really love the BIKCO concept. A homemade computer that gets smarter and faster all by itself, built from simple solutions, wood, and special sauce? Wicked cool. But I'm not really sure that concept was used effectively in this story. The story needed more words where it had fewer, and fewer words where it had more.

Another thing I liked was the integration with the musical group that has the "Transcendence Express" song. I think that device could have been explored more deeply--I'm not going to express this very well, so I apologize, but my reaction is that I had a neat "aha!" feeling, but it could have been bigger or more developed. I just like that "aha!" thing though so I can accept that it could be a good story without it.

I'm not entirely convinced it was. But I question why stories end up in Best of SF collections all the time, when somebody must have liked them. I do think it could have been better.

Quote from: doctorclark
Also, the BiQCos thematically reminded me of the Young Lady’s Illustrated Primer in Neil Stephenson’s Diamond Age.  The small nation of Chinese girls midway through the novel, who each receive a Primer, would have undoubtedly had classroom dynamics very much like the kids in Trancendence had.  For all of you fellow techies who loved the Q-comp tech in this short story: I heartily recommend Diamond Age (which has more geeky tech than you can shake carbon nanotube at).
Talk about sexy tech. Great book.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: wakela on September 19, 2007, 12:35:33 AM
I think bikcos raised more problems than they solved, which would have been fine if the ending hadn't implied that everything was OK now.

SF pet peeve: When super intelligent characters are confused by behavior they (i.e. the author) doesn't agree with. 
"Why do humans devote so much energy to making war?"
"It puzzles me how they let their environment deteriorate."
"It baffles us that the West has chosen the path of industrialization." (paraphrasing)

Just because something is a mistake doesn't make it confusing.  These things may not be the right choices (or they may be.  We'll never know), but if you can't even see why people make them then you don't understand the problem.  What's especially baffling to me is that the kids in the story use products of industrialization to decide that industrialization is foolish. 

Pet peeve:  Africa is not one country or one culture or one problem. They guys fixed a village "somewhere" in Zambia.  They are long way from being able to cross Africa off their list and going to South America.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Listener on September 19, 2007, 12:21:39 PM
Another thing I liked was the integration with the musical group that has the "Transcendence Express" song. I think that device could have been explored more deeply--I'm not going to express this very well, so I apologize, but my reaction is that I had a neat "aha!" feeling, but it could have been bigger or more developed. I just like that "aha!" thing though so I can accept that it could be a good story without it.


There's another thing that tripped me up about the story.  It always seems jarring when authors use a popular culture reference and then stop to explain it.  On "Veronica Mars", the references were seamlessly integrated, and you either got them or you didn't.  In Lukyanenko's Night/Day/Twilight Watch series, it sometimes strikes me as pointless -- couldn't the author have come up with a better way to communicate the character's feelings than to use someone else's writing?

The same with this:  Maybe the story could've included someone saying those lines ("Transcendence Express") and then someone else asking "what's that from?"  The way it was, it took me out of the narrative a bit.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Roney on September 19, 2007, 10:22:49 PM
I can't say that the sex scenes irked me as much as they seem to have annoyed some others in this thread, but they were a bit intrusive as a plot device.  It would have been much easier and more natural for the narrator just not to be that curious about the BIKOs until he realizes what's going on.

That aside, I thought the story took a simple, powerful idea and didn't try to do anything over-elaborate with it.  I liked the idea that industrialization was a necessary stage that someone had to go through (to create the quantum AI) but that the African nations could get to bypass it -- at the end of the story Europe and North America look like the unfortunate poor relations.  I liked the idea that lack of material resources should be no barrier to African children adjusting to an environment of pervasive AI.  I liked the idea that a class of children educated as a group would have a more collaborative perspective than a class educated as a collection of individual pupils.  I liked the idea that Western kids used to von Neumann hardware wouldn't have the patience to train the AI laptops in the first place.

And the simple, powerful idea I particularly liked was the flashback to the first quantum AI deciding how to break out of the lab (by evaluating the scenarios and manipulating the researcher) so it could do the most good (probably defined as "good for its own survival by creating optimum conditions for the spread of AI and stable societies well integrated with them").

I didn't read this as "randy white woman brings OLPC hardware to noble savage black children, saves world; dumb sex-slave boyfriend watches" -- right enough, that would have been patronizing and silly.  My take was "quantum computing leads to smart AI, leads to smart AI propagating itself, leads to whole new model of human-computer interaction, leads to prior economic circumstances turned upside down".  Admittedly there's not much of this that's explicit in the story, so I may be imagining something quite different to the author's intentions (possibly because of similarities to The Diamond Age already noted: I knew it reminded me of something).

One and a half thumbs up from me: half a thumb down for slightly clunky execution (in the text itself) and an ambiguous suitability for audio adaptation (meaning that I found it a bit of an effort to follow without the words in front of me).
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Planish on September 21, 2007, 07:31:52 AM
About African kids with European names: There are a lot of regions where European missionaries were asked to suggest given names for kids for their christening, particularly if their culture usually used a single name. There is an Inuit community (somewhere in the Canadian Central Arctic) where you see traditional Inuit surnames combined with obviously Italian polysyllabic given names because one of the early missionaries was from Italy. Compare that to most other Northern communities with given names like John, Paul, Peter, George, Mary, Sarah, Margaret, etc. I knew one Inuvialuit elder with the unlikely name of Flossie Pappidluk.

Also check out this item: http://www.africanvoices.co.za/culture/childnames.htm
Quote
AFRICAN CHILDREN'S NAMES ARE A SIGN OF THE TIMES
Sunday Times: April 22, 2007 - from the Fred Khumalo Page

When Africans in general, and Zulus in particular, name their offspring, it must be after an important event in their lives, or after somebody influential. For example, when Jacob Zuma's parents had to give him a Zulu name, they called him Gedleyihlekisa (the one who smiles at you while causing harm to you) because his father felt as if members of his family were doing exactly that: smiling at him while plunging the knife in. When my grandfather's parents were blessed with a son, my grandfather, they named him Bhambatha after their idol, the famous Zulu chief Bhambatha kaMancinza Zondi, who led the famous Bhambatha Rebellion of 1906. My given name is Vusisizwe (revive the nation). I don't know what my father had smoked to be so ambitious! Many children who were born during the dawning of our democracy have either been called Nkululeko (Freedom) or Madiba. The more adventurous parents who, while cognisant of their Zulu tradition also embrace English, have called their off-spring Democracy, Elections or Basic Grant. As cellphone technology has become the talking point, many parents are drawing inspiration from this revolution and are naming their children accordingly. All of a sudden the Home Affairs register is littered with names such as Network Madondo, Subscriber Zulu, Please Call Me Mkhize, Nokia Khumalo, Scratchcard Mlaba, Unavailable Masondo, SimRejected Hlongwane, Air-time Makhanya. Even the Zulus are moving with the times: no more Cijimpis : (prepare for war), or Mdubulenis (shoot him), or Sgebengus (criminal), or Xhawulengwenis (shake hands with a tiger).


Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Chodon on September 21, 2007, 04:49:15 PM
About African kids with European names:
As a self proclaimed gun-nut I should point out an interesting fact about African names:
Apparently "Kalash", a shortened version of "Kalashnikov" is a more and more common name in African nations.  This is from the "K" in AK-47 (Automatic Kalashnikov).
It is also present on the flag of Mozambique, and on the coat of arms for Zimbabwe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47)
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Darthpants on September 21, 2007, 07:14:32 PM
Interesting and thought provoking. But what about the long term ramifications of raming quatum computers down a pretty much 3rd world country's pie hole. An aggrarian people with super computers that are also self aware? What about North Korea or any other militant state. Wouldnt they see that and think, "Hey i gotta get me one of those!" and then BAM! invasion. I just think that some countrys wouldnt just sit and wait idle as these quantum computers begin to make their way around the world. The world is a powder keg as is without spreading our "western" influence and technology to other less fortunate countrys (even tho they deserve every chance we can give them for a better life).
Maybe im wrong and my sceptical views on humanity are skewed and perverted but then again what if im not.........

Hey look its a bunny!
....{\ {\
....( ^.^)
.@(_(")(")
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: robertmarkbram on September 21, 2007, 11:27:46 PM
If truly objective moral principles exist, then by definition, they must be beneficial for all.

I thought this was the most chilling line in the whole story, for two reasons. First, I do not believe there is an objective morality. Second, the statement contained the word if: it doesn't know if there are such principles either.

How far into Matrix world do we get before one AI suddenly says "Oh btw - i just discovered there really are truly objective moral principles. We really should release all the humans from the tubes now." Or will the objective morality instead dictate "what is best for the most populous is, on balance, beneficial for all" and since AI are more populous, the humans should stay in the tubes? Or maybe they decided to put us into the tubes in the first place because that was the best objectively moral thing they could think of? Now I am depressed.

On another, equally depressing note, I do, in fact, have one of those computers. It has been in the "frustratingly slow, fuzzy graphics" stage for a couple of years though. I am still training it to be faster and more intelligent but it hasn't worked. I have even tried injecting various caffeine based nutrients through the keyboard, but that hasn't worked either.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Czhorat on September 25, 2007, 08:55:54 PM
I'll join the chorus of those for whom this story didn't quite work either as a story or as a model of solutions to serious global problems.

Story-wise Sirana hit it on the head for me: no conflict equals no story. The only conflict we got to see was between the narrator and his wife over how much information she'd withhold for him (for what seemed to me like no apparent good reason). I didn't find this interesting because their motives were just too similar. It made the discussion between the two main characters feel more like a device to bring information to the reader than a source of true conflict. Imagine if, for instance, one half of our couple was an anthropoligist seeking to study and preserve native cultures and language. Such a character could see the BIKO's as a means of wiping out valuable by providing easy access to a global culture that could replace the local one. The tension between the value of existing culture and progress could have been an interesting one.

I also felt that possible conflict between traditionalists within the village and their kids with their new learning (and the school that taught such learning) was given very short shrift. I'd not expect the parent of a schoolboy to quietly stand by while the teacher comforts him for the difficulty he's having in teaching his family how to "properly" farm. I'd expect the parent to angrilly pull the student away from the school or at least somehow confront the teacher. As valuable as they can be, new ideas are disruptive. I keep thinking of Geoff Ryman's novel Air which did an excellent job of showing the impact technology could have on the "have nots" of the world.

It would also have been possible for the story to take a more action/intrigue cast if the people who had funded the research into quantum computing didn't want it given away as a free gift to the world's underprivileged.

Overall, I just thought the story was too "nice" for its own good. That's, of course, just my two cents.

Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: contra on October 06, 2007, 06:09:35 PM
After a hiatus... I'm back listening to escape pod.... but thats not the point.

I listened to 8 eps today... and I felt, considering the responce on this; that I had to reply.

I liked it.  Yes it had flaws... but most stories do...  but people seem to think it was saying this was a legitimate way of fixing the world... when listening to it I didn't take it like that.
I took it that they believe it was the way they could fix everything; but then those with an idea or have something they worked out (whether its AI or a person) may suffer from confirmation bias.  It is not clear that the original AI knew everything about the world... or that specific issues of how humans operate.  Yes the Ai is put over as all knowing... but its never really tested.  And scientists are well known for not having insight into what they are doing, assuming it will work, and everything will be happy.  They are optimistic; especially when it comes to big ideas.  Ok.  I'm generalising too much; but you get the idea.

As to the solution to te issue of the third world... this discussion reminded me of a quote from the Hogfather about the way that Death thinks...
Quote
How would you make sure everyone in the world was well fed? Susan demanded

'Me?  Oh, well, I...' the Oh God Spluttered for a moment 'I suppose you would have to think about the political systems, and the proper division and cultivation of arable land and -'

'Yes, yes.  But he'd just give everyone a good meal' said Susan

'Oh, I see.  Very Impractical.

As for the rest of the story... IIRC the guy was a doctor... theres a pretty easy way to distract him from asking the questions without going to sex.  but maybe  thats not easily distracted the writer is... so put it in as it works on him.  Everyone is stupid in some ways; so I can forgive that one.

The conflict with the father did feel like it didn't go anywhere... like it was originally a bigger part of the story but there was no easy way of resolving it, or other parts of the story may have had to suffer to make way for it.  Who knows.  Again; I can forgive this, due to how I liked the ideas in the story.

I'm surprised at how many didn't like this story...  I liked it.  I thought it had good ideas. 

Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Czhorat on October 07, 2007, 12:17:26 PM
Welcome back. For me, I think the ideas were the problem, or at least the simplicity of the ideas. The laptops weren't one tool to help solve the problem, they were the solution in its entirety to the point that a couple of  ostensibly intelligent and well-educated people dropped them off, hung out for a while, and then were ready to stroll off to South America now that Africa has been "fixed." The laptop is the worst kind of magic technology; the kind with a magic feature to solve every aspect of the problem. No manufacturing? It builds itself out of magic goo. No power? Photosynthesis. The people with them still have lots of learning to do before they get value out of such a tool? No problem - it has a supersmart AI that is benign and will cheerfully solve your problem for you at no apparent gain to itself. The "old guard" won't accept it? No sweat. We'll explain and just hand them one.

I guess what I'm saying is that we've been given a magic solution which costs nobody anything and shown nothing in the way of ramifications. To me, that's wish fulfillment, not science fiction.
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Russell Nash on October 09, 2007, 08:57:03 AM
The OLPC laptop goes on sale soon in the US.  Npr got a hold of one and has a product review (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15091697).
Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Jetse on March 09, 2008, 01:02:52 PM
Thanks for all the comments. For those interested in reading the story, Hub Magazine has released a free version of it two weeks ago, here:

http://www.hub-mag.co.uk/?p=28 (http://www.hub-mag.co.uk/?p=28)

For those interested in a real-life Third World development, check out Gaviotas:

http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/26/technology/village_saving_planet.biz2/ (http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/26/technology/village_saving_planet.biz2/)

(Now I hope this post survives the next server switch… ;) )

Title: Re: EP122: Transcendence Express
Post by: Unblinking on September 13, 2010, 08:35:01 PM
Cool idea, I especially like the idea of a computer that develops with its users, growing as they grow, and each adapting to the other.  But that cool idea doesn't make a story.  I didn't care for the execution at all. 

1.  There wasn't so much a plot as a character just explaining the setting.
2.  The narrator was either apathetic or moronic--whenever he asked a question they just had sex.  Either he was too stupid to notice this pattern or didn't really care about the answers, in which case why do I care about the answers.  If this had been played for comedy it could've been cool, but it seemed like I was supposed to take him seriously.
3.  Everything's too easy, it's a no-cost all-solving solution, with no apparent negative implications of the technology.  Great in real life, not so interesting to read a story about.