Escape Artists
Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Russell Nash on September 14, 2007, 07:26:13 AM
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EP123: Niels Bohr and the Sleeping Dane (http://escapepod.org/2007/09/13/ep123-niels-bohr-and-the-sleeping-dane/)
By Jonathon Sullivan.
Read by Stephen Eley.
First appeared in Strange Horizons (http://www.strangehorizons.com/2005/20050718/sullivan-f.shtml), July 2005.
“Herr Doktor Bohr!” The captain’s cruel smile returned. “What a relief. We’ve been very concerned about you.”
Bohr sighed, looked up at the Gestapo captain with calm resignation, and took his wife’s hand. He started to get up.
“You are mistaken, sir,” Papa said.
I was nineteen years old. I had followed Bohr’s career for half my life, with something bordering on worship. A terrible miracle of circumstance had finally brought me into his presence. But at that moment his life meant nothing next to my own. Niels Bohr was already a prisoner of the Third Reich—nothing could stop that now. Papa’s action could only put us on a boxcar to Theresienstadt.
Rated PG. Contains scenes of graphic violence.
(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://escapepod.org/podpress_trac/web/241/0/EP123_NielsBohrSleepingDane.mp3)
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I really liked this one, even though "alternate history/historical fiction/historical fantasy involving real, well-known people" stories usually give me hives. The emotion felt real, with a powerful exploration of both the father-son relationship and the narrator's hero-worship of Bohr. Also, I was impressed with how the arcane discussion, both of Kaballah and of physics (and of the grey area of overlap) was just deep enough to be interesting, while not going too deep to bog down the story. This is a very hard tightrope to walk as a writer, as I know from experience (okay, from failure mostly).
I don't have much else to say right now, but I expect to have more after I've let this sink in a little.
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I want to know more about invisible pink Unicorns!
like how many are there, where are they, are they beneficial? and how can they be pink if they are invisible?
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I too am interested in
the invisible PINK unicorn.
And to my amazement
what did I find?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn
I am researching
a new religion
for myself
that others might be interested in joining
- Fictionology
http://tinyurl.com/butc8
It is my understanding that
the mystical unicorn of old
changed into a Narwhal
when humans lost their ability
to simultaneously hold beliefs
in the whimsical and rational.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narwhal
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Hi!
I will start by being a partyspoiler and bring this thread back on topic: ;)
Overall a very nice read, being a Dane it was great fun hearing a story taking place, and involving people from this corner of the world - the author has certainly done some research. I didn't catch any direct errors, that couldn't be explained by me not knowing enough about the public transport system around Copenhagen in 1943. :)
The one thing, that did bother me a bit was actually the fantasy ending, which the story didn't really need in my opinion - the story of how the Danish (and some German) jews where ferried across the sound to Sweden is quite exiting in and of itself. Adding a stone golem impersonating as one of our greatest national symbols didn't add to the story in any significant way (except giving it the label Fantasy, thus allowing it on the Escape pod, which gave me a chance to listen to it :)), I think the magic would have been much more easily accepted, if it has stayed subtle, like the Rabbi's mindpower tricks on the Gestapo officer.
Compliments to Steve for his pronounciation of the difficult Danish names and places - no, they weren't spoken like a native, but this native understood them easily... (btw Holger Danske is pronounced with the last E as the E in the - same goes for my name).
Thanx for a great podcast.
/Mette
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like how many are there, where are they, are they beneficial? and how can they be pink if they are invisible?
"Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them."
- Steve Eley, circa 1995
I had a whole manifesto written up at one point, but the exact text has been lost to history and pre-Web Telnet-based BBS systems. I remember there was a model of the expanding universe based on raisin bread. I remember that IPUs were responsible for stealing your socks.
I remember writing that mosquitoes don't actuallly bite people; rather, they flock around IPUs the way horseflies flock around horses. The raised, itchy welt is the Invisible Pink Unicorn poking you with its horn for your sins. Since you can't see the IPU, you blame the mosquito instead.
I also remember not wanting to be the High Priest. HPs are figureheads, and the first against the all when the revolution comes. I was Chief Advocate and Spokesguy instead, meaning I got to make up cool manifestos and nobody blamed me for what happened.
A friend of mine started the first schism by founding the Cult of the Very Stealthy Maroon Pegasi. His branch didn't get very far, however. How could it? Maroon pegasi are ridiculous.
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THAT WAS PRETTY– Oops, caps lock.
That was pretty cool.
I agree with Mette that the fantastic ending was actually superfluous: I would have been happier with something more subtle. Everything up to that point was solidly rooted in history, science and believable drama when suddenly– WHOA, there's a freakin' giant golem cuttin' people up!! It's like if The Sound of Music had ended with Maria pulling out a magic wand and turning Zeller into a toad. It also raises some questions in my mind, like, if rabbis could really make golems, then why didn't they use them to kick Hitler's ass? And it was stated that making a golem is a "mortal sin," yet the father makes one anyway. Seems inconsistent.
Although I thought the ending was weak, the prose was solid, the characters were well drawn, the tension was tense and the drama was poignant and very human. A good fiction piece that tried just a little too hard to shoehorn itself into a genre where it probably didn't belong.
Concerning Invisible Pink Unicorns: I've always thought that was a hilarious satire. The Flying Spaghetti Monster has more slapstick comedic value, but the IPU is wittier, IMO.
I was glad to hear the opinion that the science/religion antagonism is mostly due to dogmatism on both sides. I agree. Myself, I see no necessary quarrel between them and I enjoy stories (and thought in general) that does not treat them as mutually exclusive. Two of my favorite science fiction works–the book "Out of the Silent Planet" and the movie "Pi"–deal with their convergence. I liked the idea in this story that the religious numbers of the Torah and the scientific numbers of quanta were simply different ways of describing the same reality.
One thumb up from me.
A final comment concerning the end: There have been times when the absence of weirdness came as a satisfying twist in a story. For instance, I really like in the movie "The Village" that there aren't any monsters at the end. I expected monsters. Discovering that there weren't any was actually a lot more shocking than the confirmation that there were would have been. I, for one, would not be upset to hear a story of that sort in EP or Pod Castle sometime. I think this story would have been stronger if it had been more along those lines.
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I liked this story as well, and for all the same reasons that everyone else has already said, so I won't repeat them.
I did however find it rather predictable, and once we encountered the giant "sleeping" statue, I was just ready for the story to hurry up and get to that point where it came to life and started smashing Nazis.....cause that's awesome.
I'd also like to echo and agree with Mr. Tweedy's echoing and agreeing on the intro's science and religion musings. That's kind of an important topic with me right now, for various reasons, and I'm sure it is with a lot of my fellow listeners.
And I think that part about making a Golem a mortal sin was just referring to "making one from clay" because that's how God made humans. I think using a large statue to kill Nazi's is ok....lol
As a final note....for some reason in the opening scene on the train, I kept anticipating the Rabbi's next words to be "you don't need to see his identification" or "he can go about his business"....or...."these aren't the droids you're looking for....."
hmmmmmm........
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One of my favourites so far this year although I do echo the sentiment that the fantastic element seemed slightly unnecessary. Other than that though, nicely handled alternate history, some lovely, subtle characterisation (The scene between the hero and his dad could have been OTT. Instead it was sweet and honest and set up the tragedy to follow. THAT's good writing.) and a really interesting view of an overlooked piece of history. Good job all round.
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Like most other people who've already posted, I liked this story, it was engrossing and suspenseful. However, waking the golem at the end was more than unnecessary, it hurt the story. It would have been a better story had the father tried to stop the SS like he did in the train, be killed but buy enough time for others to escape. That, to me, would have been a better ending.
As for the intro, I have to disagree that science and religion can coexist happily. Despite the fact that many of history's great scientists believed in god, and were perhaps motivated by that belief, a belief in god is not scientific or rational. Saying that god does not exist is not necessarily dogmatic either, while saying that god does exist is. Looking around and finding no evidence of god and thus stating there is no god is not dogmatic. Looking around and finding no evidence of god but still clinging to a belief in god is the very definition of dogmatism. A belief in god is the rejection of science and everything good that has come out of the enlightenment. I just don't see how anybody can say god and science can coexist.
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A good fiction piece that tried just a little too hard to shoehorn itself into a genre where it probably didn't belong.
The strange part of this story
is how much I agree with Mr. Tweedy's points.
Especially
the quote above.
I had the feeling
that there were the seeds
of a very interesting story here
but it was dropped in favor of a fantasy story.
I am more interested in
what this story could have been
than what it is.
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I've heard this story before.
"The Golem", CBS Radio Mystery Theater, Dec 30th, 1974
http://ia331311.us.archive.org/3/items/otr_cbsradiomysterytheater/CBSRadioMysteryTheaterthegolemDecember301974.mp3
Of course, there's also a 1920's movie, "Der Golem" which is also basically the same story (without the nazis, of course) and they're all based on a 1500's play. It's kind of like The Strange Case of Dr. Faustus, Faust, the Devil and Daniel Webster, etc. In this way, I found this story interesting not of itself but in how it had been updated.
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I'll add my voice to those who liked the story. I was engrossed by the characters and the plot, and the author did a very nice job weaving a spell until the ending. I'm still mulling the ending over. It jarred me out of the story [never a good thing] but all the foreshadowing was there, and then some. Really shouldn't have been so jarring, but it was. Good pick Steve!!
GrantHenninger, you can't prove a negative. Looking around and not finding god doesn't mean god doesn't exist, necessarily. It may mean you haven't looked hard enough, or in the right places. Dogma isn't saying that god exists even if you don't have proof, that's belief. Dogma is saying that you KNOW that god exists, or doesn't exist, and anyone else's so-called proof be damned. Dogma is seeing the world through heavily-filtered glasses, glasses that filter out anything that might be inconvenient to the wearer's views.
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GrantHenninger, you can't prove a negative. Looking around and not finding god doesn't mean god doesn't exist, necessarily. It may mean you haven't looked hard enough, or in the right places. Dogma isn't saying that god exists even if you don't have proof, that's belief. Dogma is saying that you KNOW that god exists, or doesn't exist, and anyone else's so-called proof be damned. Dogma is seeing the world through heavily-filtered glasses, glasses that filter out anything that might be inconvenient to the wearer's views.
Saying that you can't prove a negative is a hallow argument. I know that you can't prove that god exists, but that doesn't mean a belief in something that there is no evidence for is rational. Saying that "Dogma is saying that you KNOW that god exists, or doesn't exist, and anyone else's so-called proof be damned." is the same as saying that dogma is saying you KNOW that god exists despite the lack of evidence for said god.
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Let me clarify a bit. First, I'm saying that you cannot prove that God does not exist. Therefore a belief in God in and of itself is not dogmatic. I do agree completely that saying that you cannot prove that God does not exist is not a strong argument that god exists, either, as the same can be said about IPUs and flying spaghetti toasters.
I think our real disagreement is that you are saying that there is so much evidence against god existing that to believe in god can only be described as dogmatic, and I disagree. Of course, a lot depends upon your definition of God, and what you accept as evidence. And it is probably some of the connotations that come with the word "dogma" that make me loathe to apply it to someone simply for believing in the existence of god.
Anyway, I don't really want to go any further into this argument, except to say that the Dalai Llama wrote something not too long ago which still blows me away: "If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change."
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I know I'll regret this, but I'll throw in my weird perspective on God since I haven't heard it expressed.
God is superfluous.
If God is all-seeing/all-knowing/all-encompassing-of-the-whole-universe we can't even begin to comprehend it at this stage in our development, and taking the word of some bronze-age sheep-herders about it seems rather ludicrous especially given the multitude of religious flavors out there. On the off chance the omnipotent God exists, I sincerely doubt it'd care about what religion you are. Why punish someone because they were Buddist, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Wiccan, or Atheists? The universe abides.
There's the rub of it. The universe is a HUGE place. It seems highly improbable that the universe cares whether or not you touch yourself at night. Our size in comparison with the universe is many orders of magnitude smaller than a single atom in a single cell of your big toe. We are tiny! The omnipotent God that's deeply interested in YOU just doesn't really plausible once you have scaled Mount Olympus and seen the world is a lot bigger than you thought it was.
The other possibility is a limited God. One who isn't all-powerful and can focus on you. Is this a God you want to worship? He's a middle-manager. He lays down crazy department rules and expects you to follow them. If you don't, he'll fire you. The thing about this God is that... All the really smart people tend to either talk to the higher ups about having him fired or they go to some other company where they're more appreciated. Why on Earth would I stay with a God who threatens to break my kneecaps forever if I don't write ISO-9000 procedural documents every time I wash my hands? I wouldn't. I'd either join FluffyBunniesAndFreeHugs Inc, or maybe give my own start-up a go. (Hey, it worked for L Ron Hubbard!) Okay, sure maybe that God promises you'll go IPO any day or there will be a 4th quarter bonus and maybe there will be, but can't you probably do just as well elsewhere and feel better about yourself? Moreover, if you really are good at what you're doing and your manager is a jerk, any company worth working for should reward you, regardless of the rotten manager.
Religion is ritual. It's cheap self-help and if that gets you through the day, there's no real harm in it. It's like playing a video game to unwind, or listening to a science fiction podcast to get you through the day at work. Some of those parables are even good stories that really make you think. Just don't take it too seriously. God might not exist. In which case, you're wasting the one life you have. If God is a real friend, he won't care if you're a christian, buddist, or level 60 dwarf so long as you aren't a jerk. On the other hand, if God's a cliquish jerk; Do you really want to hang out with him?
In short: Don't be a jerk and don't worry about it. Either it will work out or you were screwed from the start.
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There was a lot I liked about this story, and I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say about it. In my experience, though, the science/religion discussion generates a lot of participation [who doesn't have some ideas on god and science, and for many these ideas are strongly held]. So I've started a thread in Gallimaufry for discussion of IPUs, science and religion not directly related to this story. Hope this link works.
http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1062.0 (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1062.0)
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It also raises some questions in my mind, like, if rabbis could really make golems, then why didn't they use them to kick Hitler's ass? And it was stated that making a golem is a "mortal sin," yet the father makes one anyway. Seems inconsistent.
In trying to control the brownshirts and the nazi captain, the rabbi already demonstrated that he would risk sinning in order to save others. His son and his people are in mortal danger, so I see it as consistent with his previous behavior, although inconsistent with his belief.
Two of my favorite science fiction works–the book "Out of the Silent Planet" and the movie "Pi"–deal with their convergence. I liked the idea in this story that the religious numbers of the Torah and the scientific numbers of quanta were simply different ways of describing the same reality.
Bit of trivia - did you know that "Out of the Silent Planet" was a result of a bet between CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien?
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I just flat out enjoyed it. Yeah I knew there was going to be a Golem the second he talked about it, but I dind't care. Not being big on religion, I still respect and am in awe of it sometimes, and it was nice to see religion and science compared, contrasted and mutually respected, rather than adversarial. Yes the story would have been brilliant without the super magic monster golem but then shit, you'd just have a straight up fiction story. I hate seeing someone throw in a spaceship here and a future tech there, maybe a dragon for good measure, just to get it into a certain categorybut I didn't feel like it was forced here. It felt more like a vintage Amazing Story. Way to go SullyDog!
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It felt more like a vintage Amazing Story. Way to go SullyDog!
Like I pointed out above, it was an update of "The Golem" which was an update of a 1920 german film, "Der Golem", which was an update of "The Golem of Prague" (mid 1500's).
I linked to an MP3 of the CBS Radio Mystery Theater version of "The Golem" which has a lot of the same elements. Jews on the run from nazis in WWII. Bohr and the Rabbi are combined into a single person in that story. The grandfather is a chemist who has been doing research into a means of breaking apart atoms, generating far more power than dynamite.
In my view, it's kind of fun to see how these stories get updated, like how <U>Ran</U> and <U>My Own Private Idaho</U> are updates of <U>King Lear
Anyhow. You're right! It definitely feels like OTR and there's an OTR story that it is very closely related to. :)
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That's interesting about "The Golem." I'll have to look that up; I wasn't aware of that story.
Actually, this story grew out of an experience I had...in the catacombs of Kronborg Castle, standing next to the Sleeping Dane, in 2001, when I was in Denmark for a neuroscience conference. I was looking at this imposing statue, thinking, "wow, if he stood up and started swinging that sword, he'd be a bad motherf***er...."
http://www.copenhagenpictures.dk/kronborg.html
So I'm thinking about that, and I'm already familiar with Bohr's exploits getting Jews out of Denmark, and the guide's telling us about Holger Danske waking up to save the Danes. And then she tells us how the resistance had stashed some Jews in the catacombs when the Nazis finally clamped down.
And *boom,* that was it: the story popped into my head, pretty much whole, right then and there, standing in front of the Sleeping Dane. I wrote the first sketch on my laptop back at the hotel in Copenhagen. (BTW: Enchanting city. Great country. Wonderful people. Amazing health care. I could totally live there.)
I really appreciate all the comments, even the criticial ones. It's great to see people engaged by the story, even if it's only at the level of analyzing and critiquing the narrative. And thanks to Steve for a great read!
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One of my favorite EP stories, as most of Jonothan Sullivan's stories are. I really like the father-son relationship in it that was in conflict with the son-idol relationship, it's something we don't usually see in SF or much fiction period.
Story: 10 out of 10 Reading: 9 out of 10
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I liked this story quite a bit. Mostly because killing Nazis is fun and still socially acceptable.
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Maybe we should change the name of this podcast from "EscapePod" to "GolemPod". Kidding, kidding...two golem stories does not a GolemPod make.
This may have changed my opinion of golems (which was stated in the thread for "Brothers". Especially after seeing the photos of the Sleeping Dane. That guy is terrifying. I've always had an unnatural fear of statues coming to life, so for me this would have fit perfectly in Pseudopod. I think it was from some movie I watched as a kid where the statues came to life and chased the hero around. Can't remember the name of it though...
Nazis vs. giant animated statue is a pretty good story no matter what else goes on, and this one had enough character development to make it great. Excellent story.
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Hi All
Let me start by saying that I really liked this weeks story "Niels Bohr and the Sleeping Dane". Like Mette (who's review I mostly agree with) I am a Dane myself. And like Mette I also enjoyed the seldom setting in Denmark, although I am not particular familiar with the Helsingør/Elsonore region of Denmark.
The religion versus science theme or the merger of the two, has been debated a lot, so I won't go into detail about that either. I will only say that the two are not opposites.
I think that the story was very well written and though I also was a bit irritated with the whole Holger Danske awakening at first, I do believe that Holger Danske's springing to life did not damage the story. I think it was very neatly done, because when David draws the "Tree" in the train (or bus), he actually explains a theory that religion and science could awake Holger. So when the story had ended it didn't bother me that much. (and by the way, I believe the actual statue of Holger Danske is made of plaster, not massive stone)
A thing that did bother me however, was the fact that the epilogue did not say anything about what David had witnessed. So maybe the supernatural awakening of Holger Danske didn't actually happen. We do know that David is a dreamer. Normally I kind of dislike dream sequences because they never resemble real dreams, but the one that David has of Niels Bohr coming to the rescue, was told to us because David often discusses his dreams with his father. Therefore I didn't mind it being in the story, 'cause it being there was meaningful in relation to David. (hoped that made a little sense at least).
Also, as a boy, and like many other Danish boys, I dreamed of and fantasized about the return of Holger Danske. It is a great story that is often trivialized, or weakened by mediocre writers, but not this time. Thank you for a beautiful and well weighed story.
And to Steve: Danish is not an easy language to master, but you passed the test. There might be some Holger Danske in you.
Regards from the great Dane
Mads Kamp
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I really enjoyed the story, too. But, must agree that the ending was a little pushed. I would have preferred that somehow the father became the Sleeping Dane. This would have reinforced the son’s father worship.
Being an unofficial Universalist, I believe many religious stories and concepts are expressions of scientific truths. Some believe the story of the creation of earth and man in genesis has some basis of expressing the big bang and evolution theories. I would conclude that god is the expression of life. Religion just personifies that expression.
Another concern I have with the story is that it uses a current and real religion. This may come across as advocating one religious truth over others. I would consider it more fantasy or even sci-fi if it was based on a make believe or alien religion. As much as I enjoyed the story, it is pushed to the border of being just a good dramatic peice and not fantasy nor sci-fi.
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I loved this story. It's my favorite here in quite a while. Sullydog delivered another ace and I hope we see more from him.
I know some people feel a little let-down with the ending but the truth of the matter is, if Sullydog took out the giant golem stomping and slashing Nazis with his giant-ass sword, then this would be a WWII escape story *without* a giant golem stomping and slashing Nazis with his giant-ass sword. And for me, that would have been a travesty ;)
Seriously, I don't think the golem thing was forced at all. When his father used the Jedi mind-trick on SS officer, he dropped something about golems. And I know it wasn't really a Jedi mind-trick -- I actually thought saying the SS officer was like a golem in the flesh was really take on what a golem is. I would've been seriously annoyed if a golem hadn't shown up.
If you're looking for WWII stories where golems are involved but don't actually come to "life", check out Michael Chabon's The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay. It's also got comic books in it and it is very good, even though the golem does not stomp and slash Nazis with a giant-ass sword.
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IMNSHO .. this was a very good story. It told the story of emotions, of father and son, of mother and son and father in a very critical way. The magical realism of the golem was a VERY GOOD touch. Otherwise the story would have been weighed down by the humanity of the typical escape story.
Stories are for our amusement and entertainment as well as the exploration of the characters, after all.
All I could think of was Poul Anderson, and the night I met with him and heard him discussing battle tactics in Pennsylvania as Sir Bela of Eastmarch. There are times where we are not who we are but close to who we would like to be. Good story telling brings us close to those moments.
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To those who asked "if Rabbi's could make golems that would kick NAZI ass, why didn't they?" ask a further question. If you KNEW, not thought, but KNEW in your heart that something you did, might at the same time save someone you love BUT also damn you to hell, or keep you from the knowledge of G_d FOREVER which is the same thing, WOULD YOU STILL DO IT??
Forever is a long time..
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yup
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Another concern I have with the story is that it uses a current and real religion. This may come across as advocating one religious truth over others. I would consider it more fantasy or even sci-fi if it was based on a make believe or alien religion. As much as I enjoyed the story, it is pushed to the border of being just a good dramatic peice and not fantasy nor sci-fi.
So, you're saying that if it is a current religion it should not be used in Science Fiction? I find that interesting, but an odd thought. Just as Neils Bohr's ideas of orbitals and such have been supplemented by later ideas of quantum and super string theory, so too are religious ideas important. They may be older ones superceded by later ones but they are there none the less and have worth. I find that the religious ideas here in this story have been used well and respectfully. What more can you want?
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To those who asked "if Rabbi's could make golems that would kick NAZI ass, why didn't they?" ask a further question. If you KNEW, not thought, but KNEW in your heart that something you did, might at the same time save someone you love BUT also damn you to hell, or keep you from the knowledge of G_d FOREVER which is the same thing, WOULD YOU STILL DO IT??
Forever is a long time..
More than 50 million people died in WWII. Are you saying that someone with the power to stop all of that shouldn't, just to save his own soul? How many genrally good people essentially lost their souls because of what they were forced to do to try and survive?
That's just warped math.
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You know, I wanted my first post to be something happier and fluffier. But I have to admit, I found your comments on religion and science very, well, diplomatic. And not in a good sense.
You sit too stiffly on the fence between science and religion. Face it, science hasn't caused religious wars, religious persecution, pogroms, terror, mass suffering and so on. The support functions of religion you talk about (meaning and such like) don't outweigh the costs of religion. Religion, like other ideologies, is a great way of motivating groups, providing cohesion, glossing over glaring inequalities, injustices and just plain idiocies. And it's also great for polarising groups and promoting inter-group conflict.
A scientific viewpoint doesn't require people to blindly believe anything. To the question of "Why?" the scientific response is "Let's find out." The religious response is "Because XYZ says so, because it is thus revealed, because."
The gulf between science and religion is vast. Religion provides certainties, science provides a method to answer questions.
Oh, and the statement, "God is dead." That's Nietzche. And it doesn't talk about a metaphysical god. It talks about the relevance of the old-style god of the bible as a concept wielded by men. Sad to say, the concept of god isn't dead. I can only say, I wish it were.
The way things are, I think the following statement is most apt:
"God is the biggest damned cheerleader you can find, he'll shoot bolts of lightning from his arse* and zap x-ray lasers from his toes." Everybody wants to have a god or gods on their side.
*and yes, the blasphemy is intentional.
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As a final note....for some reason in the opening scene on the train, I kept anticipating the Rabbi's next words to be "you don't need to see his identification" or "he can go about his business"....or...."these aren't the droids you're looking for....."
That is EXACTLY what I thought.
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As someone who married into a heavily-conservative Jewish family (I'm reform/nonobservant myself), I appreciated the accuracy of the Jews of the time. As someone who's read other golem stories (see list below), I liked the take on them, especially the way the father explained how he (for lack of a better term) turned the SS man into a golem.
Not knowing much about Niels Bohr other than a general grok of his scientific discoveries, I had no problem with him being in the story, though like some others I also was a little worried that Niels Bohr actually was in the story. And speaking to the people who weren't thrilled with Holger Danske waking up at the end and going River Tam on the SS... well... that was the big payoff, I think. The whole story built up to the father using his power over golems to save everyone. I agree that the story would've been as good if the father had directly Obi-Wan'd the SS, but it wouldn't have been as exciting or dynamic or vivid as the golem laying the smackdown.
I mean, come on, if you were a submissions editor and you first read this and, in your mind's eye, saw an eight-foot-tall Danish warrior statue cleaving SS officers in twain, you'd probably have stamped a big smiley-face on this one too.
If there was a problem I personally had with the story, it was with the coda at the end. I would've been happy with the story had it ended with David, Niels, and Margarethe (sp?) on the boat, heading to Sweden. I think it was evident that, with Niels as his mentor, David would end up being successful in his field. We didn't need to hear he was still kicking around, 60 years later, about to win a Nobel Prize (?).
The reading was up to its usual strong Eley standards. I'm glad that I didn't have to pronounce those names. If anything, "Holger Danske" often sounded like "olgerdansk" or "holgerdansk" and I wasn't sure how it would be spelled. Little details like that sometimes grab my brain and take me out of the story. But then, had I been reading this instead of listening to it, that wouldn't have been an issue, so I'm not really unhappy or anything.
Overall, a good story. I liked it a lot. I find that, though I used to strongly resist Holocaust-centered fiction in my younger days, taken in small doses like this and like "Brothers", I'm okay with it. Perhaps because, unlike what was forced on me in Hebrew school in the early 90s, this story wasn't at all heavy-handed. It wasn't a cautionary tale like so much of that genre seems to be (IMO). It was a story that happened to take place during the Holocaust, happened to involve Jewish refugees, and happened to also be nominally in the SF/F/H genre. The incidental-ness of it made it work for me; it was about the characters, not about the events.
Other good golem stories (novels):
Terry Pratchett: "Going Postal", "Feet of Clay"
Marge Piercy: "He, She, and It"
China Mieville: "Iron Council"
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This is one of my favorite Escape Pod episodes yet. It's a strong story, with good characters, cool ideas, a very tasty blend of science and mysticism, and undeniable emotional impact.
I particularly appreciated both the themes of this story and Steve's opening monologue because they resonate so deeply with me on a personal level. I was raised in a conservative Christian upbringing, in which I immersed myself wholeheartedly and completely. I had read the Bible three times from cover to cover by the age of sixteen. I am also a scientist: I have a bachelor's degree in biochemistry and a master's degree in biology, and my research has been published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. As if that combination weren't enough, I am also something of a mystic; I have studied the works of Brother Lawrence and A.W. Tozer, and the next non-fiction book on my to-be-read list is "The Good Heart", which is the Dalai Lama's reflections on the teachings of Jesus. I have had personal experiences that I would classify as spiritual and supernatural; I have seen both the divine and the demonic at work, and I do not use either of those terms lightly.
I have my feet in two worlds; I am a devout apologist of the merits of science, and yet the deepest parts of me are drawn to things that science cannot touch. I have trained for a career of fitting the world into observable and measurable categories, yet I seek after the moments that shatter those boxes and leave me on my knees in astonished wonder. I will not divorce myself from my mind or my heart, and for that reason I connect deeply with the character of David in this story.
I should note, in passing, that most of my friends in both worlds are accepting of my eccentricities, or at least tolerant of them. On the whole, I experience more hostility and resistance from the religious side, while my scientific associates are more likely to respond with bemusement or a "whatever works for you" attitude. (The only overtly anti-religious sentiment I faced in grad school was when someone took down a copy of this picture (http://mrmom.amaonline.com/forgiven.htm) that I had posted in my office. Interestingly, the person chose to go behind my back and complain to one of my lab-mates instead of confronting me about it directly.) I think that the lack of religious people in the sciences is not due to an inherent bias against us by most scientists -- though, to be sure, there are people like Richard Dawkins out there for whom atheism is a religion to be defended at all costs. Rather, I think the primary reason is that religious communities tend to encourage all of their brightest young people to enter the ministry. Becoming a pastor or theologian is seen as the highest calling a person could achieve, and so many brilliant young religious minds end up exiled to the ghetto of the theological seminary when they could be joining the world of science.
C.S. Lewis, in his book "Christian Apologetics," offered some very good advice to the Christian community:
What we want is not more little books about Christianity, but more little books by Christians on other subjects -- with their Christianity latent. You can see this most easily if you look at it the other way round. Our faith is not likely to be shaken by any book on Hinduism. But, if whenever we read an elementary book on geology, botany, politics, or astronomy, we found that its implications were Hindu, that would shake us. It is not the books written in direct defense of materialism that make the modern man a materialist; it is the materialistic assumptions in all the other books. In the same way, it is not books on Christianity that will really trouble him. But he would be troubled if, whenever he wanted a cheap popular introduction to some science, the best work on the market was always by a Christian.
It is, I believe, a detriment to both the religious community and the world at large that his advice was not followed.
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Like I pointed out above, it was an update of "The Golem" which was an update of a 1920 german film, "Der Golem", which was an update of "The Golem of Prague" (mid 1500's).
Anyhow. You're right! It definitely feels like OTR and there's an OTR story that it is very closely related to. :)
Ok, maybe it WAS just an updated story (thanks for the links!). But THIS one was ready performed by Steve Eley. So yeah...
I really don't have much else to add to the conversation, except that I echo those, who echo others, and so on back to Mr. Tweedy.
On God: I thought the internet was God... Now I'm REALLY confused! ???
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More than 50 million people died in WWII. Are you saying that someone with the power to stop all of that shouldn't, just to save his own soul? How many genrally good people essentially lost their souls because of what they were forced to do to try and survive?
That's just warped math.
I have no clue. However if you were asked about your own personal experience, whether you were going to be outside the experience of the Creator FOREVER by doing one particular act... would you do it? Probably very few lost their own souls as long as they acted to the best of their ability . .. and remember the creation of the golem itself did NOT end the war..
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More than 50 million people died in WWII. Are you saying that someone with the power to stop all of that shouldn't, just to save his own soul? How many genrally good people essentially lost their souls because of what they were forced to do to try and survive?
That's just warped math.
I have no clue. However if you were asked about your own personal experience, whether you were going to be outside the experience of the Creator FOREVER by doing one particular act... would you do it? Probably very few lost their own souls as long as they acted to the best of their ability . .. and remember the creation of the golem itself did NOT end the war..
The original statement was why didn't a bunch of Rabbis make a bunch of golem each. Since Rabbis are supposed to take care of their people, I think they would be obliged to fight in everyway possible. I respectable god would wrap them in his love for all of the good they ended up doing.
It doesn't matter since golems are as real as ID (my current punching bag, Bdoomed needs a rest). It would be a cool alternate history to have a force of golems take on the third reich (non-capitalization is intentional).
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More than 50 million people died in WWII. Are you saying that someone with the power to stop all of that shouldn't, just to save his own soul? How many genrally good people essentially lost their souls because of what they were forced to do to try and survive?
That's just warped math.
I have no clue. However if you were asked about your own personal experience, whether you were going to be outside the experience of the Creator FOREVER by doing one particular act... would you do it? Probably very few lost their own souls as long as they acted to the best of their ability . .. and remember the creation of the golem itself did NOT end the war..
The original statement was why didn't a bunch of Rabbis make a bunch of golem each. Since Rabbis are supposed to take care of their people, I think they would be obliged to fight in everyway possible.
Probably for a few reasons:
1. Not every Rabbi necessarily knows how to make a golem. In the stories I've read, one underlying theme is that you have to be at least somewhat versed in kabbalah to know how to do it, and I don't know that every Rabbi is.
2. Even if Rabbis are versed in kabbalah, I'd think golemistry is pretty esoteric. I may be wrong.
3. Rabbi Goldblum didn't create either of the two golems in the story. He used other creations as golems -- the SS man and Holger Danske. To create a golem from scratch, you need to build a man of clay. Other Rabbis could've used empty-headed men (like the SS man on the train), but I would think it's much easier to animate a man of clay than it is to fill the head of another living creature.
4. In "Brothers" (Pseudopod), it's said that the creation of a golem is a sin, which is why that golem killed the Rabbi who created him and then his own "brother". I don't know enough kabbalah to know if that's true or not, but in my limited interpretation of Torah, if G-d creates man, man should not seek to emulate G-d by creating his own lifeform. (Reproduction is different -- be fruitful and multiply, et al -- but I think the interpretation is "you're not G-d, I am, so you do what I made you to do, and I'll do what I do, and everyone goes away happy".)
I'm a casual Jew at best these days, but that's my opinion.
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What if you're using the golems to battle some other abomination? I see a zombie vs. golem story.
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Enjoyed the story. But, the simple waking of the giant statue as a golem did not work for me. I was interested in hearing more about the connection of the body, Jewish mythology and atomic structure. Was that all made up or was it based on actually beliefs?
My 2 cents on Steve's intro. usually these are spot on, but this time I could not agree.
Most religion does not readily accept new knowledge that challenges its rigid dogma. (Of the world's great religious leaders, the Dalai Lama is the only one I have heard say that if religion and observable reality conflict, he would have to reconsider his religious tenants.)
The scientists I know are not dogmatic. They accept and examine new information to update their understanding of the world. This is the basis of the scientific method.
Secondly, it seems ironic to talk of the benefits of religion in the introduction to a story based on the actions of the German army in WW2. They had "Gott mit uns" (God with us) on their belt buckles and their leaders used religion to justify the holocaust.
Much religion is divisive and harmful. I was taught that several of my school friends were going to burn in hell for eternity because they believed the wrong dogma. Not to mention the billions of Chinese, Africans, Muslims and other who had other beliefs because they were born in non-Christian families.
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Russell, you should definitely check out Iron Council. It's not my favorite Mieville book by a long shot, but the parts with golems are awesome, and IIRC there's a golems (plural) at one point do fight a group of New Crobuzon's army.
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I tell myself just about every day that I hate alternate history, but EscapePod proves me wrong just about as often as it proves me right.
I'll have to think a little harder about why I hate some kinds of alternate history before I can articulate it clearly but for now: this right here? This is the kind I don't hate.
Thanks, EscapePod.
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Is this really alternate history or is it historical fiction?
History isn't really changed. This incident was just embelished. Historical fiction is full of charactors interacting with real people.
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Is this really alternate history or is it historical fiction?
History isn't really changed. This incident was just embelished. Historical fiction is full of charactors interacting with real people.
Ehhh, as much as I'm dying to get into yet another semantic argument about whether this particular genre niche is a dodecahedron or a heptagon and whether the story fits it (I lie. I am not even remotely tempted to get in another such argument, just as I have not been remotely tempted to participate in any of the prior ones) it smelled and walked and talked like alternate history to me, so I named it such. Naming it something else would be a convenient way for me to continue to hate all alternate history, I guess, but ehhh.
Still, got no problem with you naming it something else, if that suits you.
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Is this really alternate history or is it historical fiction?
History isn't really changed. This incident was just embelished. Historical fiction is full of charactors interacting with real people.
I've sometimes heard this particular sort of speculative fiction referred to as "secret history." Stories where the broad strokes of history aren't affected, and the story might have happened if the magic or technology were possible -- it just wasn't written down.
Vonda McIntyre's novel The Moon and the Sun (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671567667/escapepod-20) is a strong example. It's a very engaging novel about Louis XIV's court in Versailles, with only the addition of an intelligent sea monster whom the nobles are keeping as a sort of pet.
Stephenson's entire Baroque Cycle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060593083/escapepod-20), and the WWII half of Cryptonomicon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060512806/escapepod-20), could also be considered secret history. For the most part, the real historical figures in these novels do pretty much what history records them as doing. Stephenson just has them doing an awful lot of other things besides.
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I found this piece interesting from a character development point of view; it describes the creation of a great scientist. I have met several Nobel Laureates and have had the honor of attending the Nobel Prize Ceremony, as well as competing in several national and international science competitions. After meeting scientists from all over the world I quickly realized many have strange stories of their discoveries. The story depicts this well. The story also speaks of the moment of winning. That at first you feel on top of the world, then you remember. You remember the people who make you who you are and who inspired to do research. It is truly an extraordinary feeling.
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Probably for a few reasons:
1. Not every Rabbi necessarily knows how to make a golem. In the stories I've read, one underlying theme is that you have to be at least somewhat versed in kabbalah to know how to do it, and I don't know that every Rabbi is.
Okay. Between your comment here and Nash's comment above about how it'd make an interesting alternate history, my brain suggested, "Probably about as common as Catholic priests who can perform exorcisms." and then I wondered if a priest could exorcise a golem. And then my brain plugged in a memory circuit from some TV program that alleged that the Vatican had helped nazis flee German in the final days of the war. So. (ignoring the obvious fact that any way you went with this story, it'd have racist overtones) there's your answer! Some religious group working for the nazis obviously knew of some way to destroy golems.
Anyhow. I'm pretty sure this story has been done and it's called Hellboy.
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Seems to me that the head-butting in the religion-vs-science debate isn't due to the dogmatic nature of the beliefs on either side...it's more that each side is hell-bent on proselytizing their viewpoint. It's as if people have to convince everyone that they have a monopoly on Ultimate Truth in order to legitimize their own beliefs.
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I really enjoyed this story. I loved the hard science; I loved the characterization; I loved the relationships; I loved the historical setting; I loved the respectful treatment of religion; and I loved the giant statue splitting heads. That's a lot to pack into one story, but the author did it well.
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Having been a suscriber since episode 88 or thereabouts, I'd say this story was my favourite so far. Very thoughtfully written.
If I was a monkey, I'd give it four thumbs up.
The golemized (?) statue was certainly not a deus ex machina, since it had been hinted at all through the story in one form or another. I was expecting more of a metaphorical golem though, something to do with one of the resistance group members (which group, in real life, borrowed the name of Holger Danske - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holger_Danske_%28Resistance_group%29 ). But then, it would merely be a work of historical fiction (or as Steve put it, "secret history" - I like that one).
I'm surprised that nobody has yet brought up the notion that Bohr along with many Jewish (and non-Jewish, of course) ex-pats, was ultimately going to contribute the construction of the biggest golem of all, the atomic bomb. Like the Golem of Prague, the atomic bomb is a servant that is proving very hard to deactivate once the original task was accomplished. As far as it being a "sin" to create one goes, wasn't it Robert Oppenheimer who said "Now we are all bastards" after the Trinity test?
I am so glad it didn't end with Bohr wielding some weapon involving a blinding light, as in the son's dream.
I liked the way a number of threads wove themselves in and out of the story: the golem(s), Holger Danske as a symbol for the resistance by the Danes, the mysticism/physics comparisons, and so on.
I was worried that the SS Captain on the train was going to be a bit of a cartoon villain, because it's impossible not to think of the stereotypical Nazi officer, yet it was necessary to have one here. Fortunately his part was quite short, and he did have that menacing air of a rattlesnake in your sleeping bag. Nobody (except the father, of course) wanted to speak or move, hoping it would just slither away. I like that kind of villain.
About the train: Is it just me not following the story closely enough, or did it not magically turned into a bus for a while, when they took the young family off at one of the stops?
It (the story) also recalled one of my favourite new (to me) words: Liminality - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liminality
Liminality (from the Latin word līmen, meaning "a threshold") is the quality of the second stage of a ritual in the theories of Arnold van Gennep, Victor Turner, and others. In these theories, a ritual, especially a rite of passage, involves some change to the participants, especially their social status.
The liminal state is characterized by ambiguity, openness, and indeterminacy. One's sense of identity dissolves to some extent, bringing about disorientation. Liminality is a period of transition where normal limits to thought, self-understanding, and behavior are relaxed - a situation which can lead to new perspectives.
People, places, or things may not complete a transition, or a transition between two states may not be fully possible. Those who remain in a state between two other states may become permanently liminal.
[snip]
During the liminal stage, normally accepted differences between the participants, such as social class, are often de-emphasized or ignored. A social structure of communitas forms: one based on common humanity and equality rather than recognized hierarchy.
[snip]
Liminality in states of consciousness
Another example of liminality can occur when someone wakes from dream sleep and in a hypnagogic state of mind is unable to distinguish if a vaguely recalled dream actually occurred.
[snip]
Liminality in places
These can range from borders, to no man's lands and disputed territories, to crossroads to perhaps airports or hotels, which people pass through but do not live in. In mythology and religion or esoteric lore this can include such realms as Purgatory or Da'at which as well as signifying liminality some theologians have denied actually existing, making them, in some cases, doubly liminal. "Between-ness" defines these spaces.
[snip]
The story certainly had many of those elements - the "communitas", losing his family and leaving his home to go to the "higher plane" of Cambridge University, the dream that he tries to nurture as he is waking up, the catacombs being a sort of purgatory, crossing borders and passing through a neutral country, the threshold between land to sea, the threshold between the mystical and empirical knowledge, it's all there, lots of that Hero's Journey stuff.
There is also the separate article on the Liminal being - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liminal_being
In speculative fiction and, loosely applied, in mythology, a liminal being is a fantasy character that combines two distinct states of simultaneous existence within one physical body. This unique perspective may provide the liminal being with wisdom and the ability to instruct, making them suitable mentors, whilst also making them dangerous and uncanny.
Some of the examples in mythology and popular culture that they give are the Green Man (both alive and dead), cyborgs, and ghosts. Except for the fact that the golem isn't much for talking, I'm inclined to include it too.
Now that I think of it, Neils Bohr himself was born of one Jewish and one Lutheran parent, and was a mentor figure, making him a kind of liminal being.
I don't know if Sullivan purposely had "liminality" in mind when he wrote the story, but I think that the fact that it had those elements helped to make it a great story.
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On the silly notion of science and empirically derived knowledge conflicting with religious beliefs, see my sig line, which currently is this quote from a noted astrophysicist:
"It is a primitive form of thought that things exist or do not exist." - Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington
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About the train: Is it just me not following the story closely enough, or did it not magically turned into a bus for a while, when they took the young family off at one of the stops?
IIRC the resistance had arranged for the train to stop about a mile before the train station. All of the people in the group got off and walked to a bus stop, where they meant the person, who took them to the castle.
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About the train: Is it just me not following the story closely enough, or did it not magically turned into a bus for a while, when they took the young family off at one of the stops?
IIRC the resistance had arranged for the train to stop about a mile before the train station. All of the people in the group got off and walked to a bus stop, where they meant the person, who took them to the castle.
Later, listening more closely.
03:11 - "They stopped our train at [?]land..."
05:21 - "One of the most vivid memories of my life is how the air on the bus changed at that moment."
[blah-blah-blah]
05:51 - "The young man stood and he and his wife were led off the bus."
then
24:27 - "Hans had made arrangements with the engineer, who stopped the train a kilometer shy of Elsinore Station. Seventeen Jews, including the Bohrs, disembarked at this unscheduled stop. Hans and his children led us to the nearby bus stand."
Just a bit odd, that's all.
All I could think of was Poul Anderson, and the night I met with him and heard him discussing battle tactics in Pennsylvania as Sir Bela of Eastmarch. There are times where we are not who we are but close to who we would like to be. Good story telling brings us close to those moments.
That sounds like the intro to a "No s*** really, there I was..." Pennsic tale. (This is not the place for it, but I'd like to hear it sometime.)
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Although, as many pointed out, the characters were somewhat stereotypical, I felt that it was a good allegory about two kinds of power, the power over people, and the power over everything else.
Both have good sides (the Rabbi and the Atom bomb), and bad sides (the Nazis and the Atom bomb).
In the end, even though one seems a lot more far reaching, it's the power over people that touches us in ways that are harder to explain, and harder to forget.
A good story, although there should be a 'tear jerker' warning on these stories, it's dangerous to drive when crying.
Tim
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Agreed, this is the second story in recent months that brought me to the edge of crying in public spaces, darn it Eley, I've got a reputation as an unfeeling SOB to maintain here!
This is an example of a story where, to a large degree, you can foresee where all the beats are going to come yet Mr Sullivan writes it so well I minded it a hell of a lot less than many stories that try to keep you guessing.
For those that were arguing about 'why didn't Rabbis create a golem army', the narrator's father still died, so presumably a golem army would not automatically equal a success in the war and yeah, maybe the knowledge was not widespread. The Rabbi was trying to escape to another country without damning his soul if he could, after all.
All in all I thought this was a great story. Not one to listen to in public though.
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I enjoyed this one.
I'm going to have to disagree with everyone who said the statue coming to life was jarring or unnecessary. The groundwork was laid for it, so I can't really say it was jarring, and I think the story would have been just as good and powerful without it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was...er...unnecessary.
I'm not always satisfied with stories that explain away mystical statements, such as Holger Danske awaking when Denmark is threatened being explained away by the Rabbi, so I liked that Holger Danske the statue actually awoke too instead of just being a metaphor. It was a nice metaphor, but the statue wreaking vengeance made it better.
I also had the impression that the Rabbi wasn't expressly creating Holger Danske as a golem, but instead asking the Sleeping Dane to defend his people. When David questions the statue, Hans only says "Oh, Holger Danske sleeps here," as if that were all that needed to be said, instead of launching into an explanation of "That's a statue of so-and-so and legend has it that blah blah" to edify the Germans. The Rabbi assures Bohr that "Holger Danske is awake," as if to say 'You are simply not looking at it the right way.' It gave me the idea that when the statue did get up and commence slaying Nazis, he was doing so in response to a request, rather than the Rabbi filling an empty statue with his will--I'm unfamiliar with golem-creating tradition (Terry Pratchett doesn't count I'm afraid), but I thought that was the general idea in creating one. That Holger Danske kneels to the Rabbi and carries his body off into the dark reinforced it.
So I don't believe it was gratuitous golem-Nazi carnage, but instead a rather profound confirmation of Danish nobility and strength, a natural conclusion based on the preceding story, and another example of the integration of mundane/extraordinary outlined by David on the train.
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late to the party, for some reason i rarely listen to podcasts while sitting at my computer, and being unemployed I am not going many places that would have me listening to my ipod. Probably cause I am reading blogs and message boards, and two "stories" at once is too hard to concentrate. Anyways I really liked this story. I will say the gollum was predictable from the first moment that the rabbi referred to it already being alive. Especially once he was praying in front of it. You could see he was going to sacrifice himself "for the greater good". Still very enjoyable and I liked the comparison between Kabballah and The atom/Bohrian physics. I don't know what genre I would place the story in. There was science, religion, magic, WWII history. I think if this were a novel it would just wind up on the general fiction shelf. Still a very enjoyable read and I am glad it showed up on Escape Pod. Not to mention that as a fellow Detroiter, I have to give it up for Sully Dog.
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I'm going to take the extremely controversial stance (for an on-line forum) of saying that there simply ISN'T some great battle going on between Christians (in the U.S.) and science.
Oh, there are unquestionably, venomous arguments between extremist representatives of Christians and their counterparts but in my experience, these groups simply do not represent the average majority of the public.
As in most of the great social debates of our time ... it's not the average Joe who takes to the streets and the airwaves, its a very impassioned minority.
The average Joe is just too busy with their daily life to get involved in an shouting match that they see as ultimately pointless.
I place myself in that "moderate majority" and it has taken me almost two weeks to finally decide to even post on the topic. As I said, I don't think there is any large scale problem here.
For the record, I am a Christian and I have had a lifelong passion for science (and science fiction). My wife is a Christian and an actual Rocket Scientist! My parents are both Christians and my father is an Aeronautical Engineer. A great many of our friends who are Christians also work in science fields.
Since I'm speaking out against stereo types, I guess I also should point out that I have friends who are agnostic, atheist, follow religions or have Christian beliefs different then my own, are of different ethnicities, are artists, doctors, programmers, members of the entertainment industry, and even (gasp) podcasters. We all get along and enjoy each other's company.
Except for the podcaster thing, this makes me exceptionally average in my community.
Can science and religion coexist? Absolutely! They do every minute of every day.
Do some choose to use either one as tool to oppress others or use the whole subject to try and divide us as a group? Constantly.
They can only do this as long as we continue to allow the fringe to draw us into their argument of trying to paint the world as a black or white, "either this or that" place .
Now, in a completely un-controversial statement I would like to add that I really enjoyed this story. :)
Thanks Jonathon.
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Wow.
Sully Dog, you wrote an amazing story!
I'm a Jew aficionado (several orthodox friends, and a general interest in the mythology). I loved how you wrote the rabbi's use of his "power" in such an understated and rational way, even slipping in the foreshadowing of the golem in such an innocuous way that I didn't see it coming. I thought the "fantasy" part came from the father's mysticism. You did a wonderful job of weaving this story around some already curious and intriguing history.
To be fair, I have a soft spot for golem stories. I think they're a poorly understood and under used creature. Shwankie and I were driving when we were listening to this one, so I'm blaming that on why I didn't see the ending sooner, even so I was literally agape when the statue walked.
Thanks for the story!
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I didn't make it to the animated statue. Maybe I'd have liked it if I had, but all I could think after the jedi mind-trick the rabbi pulled was: "These are NOT the droids you're looking for." Didn't take long after for me to just turn it off.
Steve's commentary on science v religion also seemed to put me off. Perhaps its just a touchy subject for me, but I found myself also ruminating over it rather than enjoying (or not enjoying) the story. Might I suggest that commentary that might be of a slightly (highly?) contentious nature either come with a fast-forward warning or be relegated to the end after the story.
I'm just sayin'...
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Sorry you bailed, Jonesy. I think you missed a great story. At first, I wasn't sure that the rabbi's "mind tricks" were the result of real mysticism as opposed to the idea that an SS officer isn't expecting to be talked back to. I remember the story of one of my wife's familly members who was caught without papers in a similar situation and actually yelled at the office who would have arrested her; she got away and lived to tell the tale.
The animated statue might not have been neccessary, but for me it served a purpose. I saw the statue animated by the rabbi to defend the escaping Jews as symbolic of the native Danish people and culture united with immigrants and visitors to fight the occupation. If the statue just stood there we'd still have the story but lose part of the allegory.
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I could accept the officer being taken aback at being stood up to. There are plenty of examples of bullies backing off after someone shows some cajones (fictional and non). I can't be sure, perhaps it was the way it was written, perhaps it was Steve's reading, but my impression was mystic. It could also be that I was in the mind set to see a mystic explanation given that I was prepped to experience Sci-Fi.
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Don't get me wrong - on reading the entire story it seems clear that his dealing with the SS officer was mystic. My comment was just that it was ambiguous enough to be read either way before we learn more. I liked this because it let me get to know the rabbi as a character rather than immediately mold him into some kind of stereotypical "magical jew".
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I could accept the officer being taken aback at being stood up to. There are plenty of examples of bullies backing off after someone shows some cajones (fictional and non). I can't be sure, perhaps it was the way it was written, perhaps it was Steve's reading, but my impression was mystic. It could also be that I was in the mind set to see a mystic explanation given that I was prepped to experience Sci-Fi.
It was mystical. I inferred that from the text, from David saying the last time his father tried this, it didn't work.
Am I wrong? It's been a couple of weeks but I don't THINK I'm wrong.
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I could accept the officer being taken aback at being stood up to. There are plenty of examples of bullies backing off after someone shows some cajones (fictional and non). I can't be sure, perhaps it was the way it was written, perhaps it was Steve's reading, but my impression was mystic. It could also be that I was in the mind set to see a mystic explanation given that I was prepped to experience Sci-Fi.
It was mystical. I inferred that from the text, from David saying the last time his father tried this, it didn't work.
Am I wrong? It's been a couple of weeks but I don't THINK I'm wrong.
You're right that it didn't work the night his mother was killed, but it was mystical.
David's father said later in the story that he can only manipulate people who have no will of their own. Three of the four Brown Shirts were affected by his father's powers because they were only acting on orders, the didn't really have a will of their own. The fourth, however, had too much hate in him, too much of his own will to hurt others, to be swayed by the Rabbi's power.
Essentially, the fourth thug made his saving throw Vs. Jew Magic. ;)
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It is interesting to me how authors deal with the more fantastical elements of their stories. For the most part, I think the stories that set out the parameters of their reality early on are the most successful. 'In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit.' With that beginning, it is no surprise to later encounter a wizard, dwarves, ogres, elves, goblins, or a dragon.
This story approaches things differently - you don't get the full parameters of its reality [A Rabbi can animate a statue and this statue can kill nazis] until the end. You get a well-laid path leading you up to this reality. But to me it was still a bit jarring, and that is because up until the very end, there was always a rationale explanation available alongside the mystical one. Magical mind manipulation, or just bold and lucky psychology? It's all in the eye of the beholder. All through the story, this duality exists right up until the end, when there is no rationale, alternate explanation for how the inanimate became animate.
That is the only part of the story that didn't completely work for me. It didn't turn me off entirely, and I can even see its merits. After all, the explanation for why creating a golem would be rare is right there in the story, and the reader is given a privileged view into a secret world; the relative realism of the story before this animation serves to contrast the awesome magic of the moment. It didn't work that way for me, but that is probably my hang-up.
Great story.
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For the most part, I think the stories that set out the parameters of their reality early on are the most successful. 'In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit.' With that beginning, it is no surprise to later encounter a wizard, dwarves, ogres, elves, goblins, or a dragon.
I'm not sure that I 100% agree with this. Most contemporary urban fantasy has elements of magic entwined with the real world. If the viewpoint character doesn't know how magic works or isn't able to do it himself than the reader can be surprised and enjoy discovering it along with him. In this case the introduction of the more mystical elements of the Jewish faith early on, along with the story about the golem, gave me a hint that the story could lead us in that direction. In some ways this kind of story resonates more than stories in which wizards and warlocks are running around all over the place; if magic is unexpected in the world and unexpected to the viewpoint character then it feels more impactful. Otherwise you get things like magic light spells that have no more impact than the idea of a flashlight.
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Good point, Czhorat. I'll have to amend my working theory to allow that both approaches can, and often do, work well.
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I just wanted to mention, in amongst all the talk about golems and mind control and god vs. science, that I thought the story was excellent just on the father/son/hero dynamic alone.
If you take out everything else, just that bit alone is a compelling story. The son believes the father to be rigidly against his pursuit of science and wants him to be a rabbi, so he's afraid to tell him about the letter. The father wants his son to follow his passion, even if it means he won't be a rabbi. Neither can or will say anything to the other because of fear or pride or sheer oink-headedness. And then the hero comes along and allows the son to show that he understands both his hero's passion and that of his father.
To me, that is the real story, here, not the Nazis or the golems.
I enjoyed it, and I thought the Sleeping Dane coming to life at the end was exactly the right touch. He set up the gun in act 1; he had to use it in act 3.
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Very well written piece. I the inclusion of a real life character in piece of SF is always a challenge, and I think that this author handled it well. Not too much of use of him, no extra heroic actions attributed to him. All in all, a good balance was struck.
I would have loved to heard more about the atom and the soul / spirit, but seeing that the story was already nearly and hour in length some things would have had to have been cut, so i am not sure that there was really much that could have been done there.
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I had tears in my eyes at several occasions during this one.
I was at work.
I remember why I stopped listening to this podcast at work now
>_>
Great story.
Anything that makes me emotional, makes me think, and gets my brain worknig at work; has done its job.
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Coming in way late on this one....
There were three really great ideas included in this story, the obvious one being about the Kabala and mathematics. I was also really taken by the Rabbi's explanation of the Nazi captain being an "empty man" who is "easily filled up" with such things as guns and uniforms. The third idea was the also the Rabbi's. I liked how he explained to Bohr that the sleeping Dane had awoken since it was the Danes who were risking their own lives helping the jews escape. What made these ideas work so well was that they were an intricate part of the story, not just a neat idea thrown in as an aside. It's not often that you get a story with great ideas, good characters, meaningful character development, magic, suspense and scenes of Nazi's meeting a gruesome death! Bravo!
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IMHO, this is an engaging, well-written story. The characters and conversations rang true. When my iPod incorrectly thought that I had listened to the whole thing and decided that I didn't need to be troubled with hearing it again, I poked and prodded iTunes until I got it back to finish.
The statue waking up and killing Nazis was cool, but weaker than the rest of the story. I prefer the interpretation that the living statue and the jedi mind trick were not reality, but the vivid memories of an imaginative child dealing with an experience too horrible to remember clearly. In his mind the Nazis received justice for killing his father. In reality they probably didn't.
Making golems: I know nothing about Judaism. But if making a golem is a sin, then you don't make a golem. You don't avoid sin to keep yourself out of hell, you avoid sin because God tells you to. It seems to me that if the living statue was reality, then the Rabbi created it in a moment of weakness, not a moment of strength.
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I know some people feel a little let-down with the ending but the truth of the matter is, if Sullydog took out the giant golem stomping and slashing Nazis with his giant-ass sword, then this would be a WWII escape story *without* a giant golem stomping and slashing Nazis with his giant-ass sword. And for me, that would have been a travesty ;)
*points up* Even though I've seen Nazi-smashing golems before, even at Escape Artists once already, it hasn't gotten old yet. I didn't think it was out of place at all here, it was foreshadowed, and showed up as expected. Especially with the title I was waiting for it to show up sooner. My one real complaint, in fact, is that the title gave too much away before the story even started.
As Kaa said, the father/son/hero dynamic was one of the best parts of the story. The characters felt real, their conversations authentic.
I love a story that can add new viewpoints of religion, and I liked the mixing of science and religion in this one. I've never really understood why some think that science and religion can't mix. If you want to believe in both, then one statement solves all the problems: "God made the universe, including the parts that are observed through science." Conflict resolved.