Escape Artists

Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Russell Nash on February 22, 2008, 11:08:43 AM

Title: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Russell Nash on February 22, 2008, 11:08:43 AM
EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk (http://escapepod.org/2008/02/21/ep146-edward-bear-and-the-very-long-walk/)

By Ken Scholes (http://www.sff.net/people/kenscholes/).
Read by Stephen Eley.
First appeared in Talebones (http://www.talebones.com/), Spring 2001.

“Do you know what’s happened to the children?”

Edward swallowed. Suddenly, he wanted to cry. “Yes. They’re…sleeping?”

He hoped and hoped and hoped and hoped, grimacing as he did. He looked around.

Makeshift beds lined the room. Small hands gripped blankets, small eyes stared at the ceiling.

“No.” The boy frowned. “They’ve died.”

“Because of Something Very Bad?”

“Yes. And I need you to be a Very Brave Bear. Can you do that?”


Rated PG. Contains strong images of death and violence. Almost certainly not appropriate for small children.


(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://cdn3.libsyn.com/escapepod/EP146_EdwardBear.mp3)
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: eytanz on February 22, 2008, 03:24:19 PM
I'm going to withhold commentary on the story itself for a while, since I think I need to think a bit more about whether or not I liked it. I just wanted to point out that after I read Steve's warning, I expected a story that used children's story language to describe adult themes, so that a parent might listen to a bit of it and think it's ok, not realizing that later on things get complex.

Instead, I got a story whose first sentence was "He was a bear and his name was Edward and he lay twitching in the corner of a room that smelled like death".

So I sort of have a feeling that Steve gave the wrong warning - I think the proper warning would be "this story may be more appropriate to (some) children that it initially seems", rather than "this story may be less appropriate to children than it initially seems".
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: SFEley on February 22, 2008, 04:51:56 PM
So I sort of have a feeling that Steve gave the wrong warning - I think the proper warning would be "this story may be more appropriate to (some) children that it initially seems", rather than "this story may be less appropriate to children than it initially seems".

The warning was based on my perspective as a father.  Alex is almost three.  He goes to sleep with a stuffed bear every night.  I believe he's almost at the point where the narrative of the stories I read to him matters as much as the pictures and cadence.

When I try to imagine telling him a story where his own stuffed bear wakes up in a room full of dead children, later gets torn apart by monsters, and dies in a protracted emotional scene, my brain shuts down.  I would consider it an act of cruelty to tell him that story.  I get emotional just thinking about how he'd respond.

Hence the warning.  Kids who are old enough not to personify their toys would probably be less affected.  (Or maybe they would be.  I was affected by this piece while narrating it.)

Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: eytanz on February 22, 2008, 06:46:26 PM
Oh, I understand that completely. And I agree no-one should read this story to a three year old (when I said it might be more appropriate for children than may be obvious, I was thinking 8 or so year olds; still young enough to need their stories vetted but some of whom may be able to deal with the harsher elements of this particular story and learn something worthwhile about the nature of heroism). What surprised me was the fact that the very first sentence of the story makes this fact pretty clear. The warning led me to believe that the story first lulls you into a sense of security before it springs the nasty stuff on you, but that's very much not the case.

So I wasn't complaining about the warning, only recording my own reaction to it - as a listener who had no way of knowing what your reaction would be before hearing the story, the warning made me expect a very different story style than the one I heard.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: ajames on February 22, 2008, 07:22:50 PM
Another comment that's not on the story yet but on the intro.  In general I think Steve's intro's are quite amazing, and I am continually impressed by how he states his ideas and the insights he has.  This time, though, I think Steve missed the mark with his analysis of the appeal of stories of the hero's journey.  I've probably taken the symbolism of these stories too much to heart, but I can't view them as tales about someone greater than me doing impossibly great things, but rather as stories about journeys we all take, and dangers we all face (symbolically, obviously) on our way to spiritual growth.  The appeal is that it is a familiar story told in heroic terms, which makes us and our own lives and travails seem more heroic, rather than an unfamiliar story that makes us feel better about ourselves because only really special people could pull it off. 

Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: CGFxColONeill on February 22, 2008, 09:30:18 PM
from the intro that Steve gave I expected a very different type of story as well I mean the way he was talking about it made it seem like it was going to be an almost LOTR style leave home etc but then what the story actually came out as was  a story about a psuodheroic robot (?) bear that contained gratuitous Whinny the Pooh references.

that said great intro anyway ( made me think ) and great narration
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Swamp on February 23, 2008, 12:55:22 AM
This is one of my all-time favorite stories, not just Escape Pod stories, but stories in general. 

I'm sure a lot of it has to do with my love for Winnie-the-Pooh.  And for those that don't know, Winnie-the-Pooh is the name Christopher Robin gave to Edward Bear.  I went to bed holding a Pooh Bear as a child and I loved him.  Sure I outgrew it, but have always remebered him fondly and loved the original Disney incarnation.  I now read my children the original stories by A. A. Milne.  They like them, but I think I enjoy them more.  (In many ways, it seems the humor of the books was for adults anyways.)

Childhood memories aside, I think the story was very well done.  It was told in a very whimsical way, despite the chilling reality of the environment, that stayed very true to Milne's style.  Though this Edward Bear was very upgraded from the original (he was on a shapeship after all), the overall personality and simplistic nature of the child's toy remained intact.

The emotion, from beginning to end, was very real.  From mourning the loss of the children to contmplating his own death, Edward, as always, is very simplistic yet poignant.  I, along with Steve, was affected by the telling.

I can understand how someone just looking for the adventure might not enjoy the story.  To me, there was a deeper art to the storytelling--the way storytelling should be, where the the emotions don't nesecarily come in the words, but the feel of the words.  The excerpt at the header is a perfect example of that:
Quote
“Do you know what’s happened to the children?”

Edward swallowed. Suddenly, he wanted to cry. “Yes. They’re…sleeping?”

He hoped and hoped and hoped and hoped, grimacing as he did. He looked around.

Makeshift beds lined the room. Small hands gripped blankets, small eyes stared at the ceiling.

“No.” The boy frowned. “They’ve died.”

“Because of Something Very Bad?”

“Yes. And I need you to be a Very Brave Bear. Can you do that?”

I love the capitalization of the terms "Something Very Bad" and "Very Brave Bear".  Very true to Milne.

I also liked to innocence of Edward Bear shown in direct contrast to the bleak reality of the situation, yet you know that Edward feels the gravity of the events.  Who else better to save the children? 

CGFxColONeill referred to him as a psuodhero, and I guess thats true.  But the important thing is that Edward acted, and he did what he could as a "bear of very little brain".  In the end, it was enough.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Swamp on February 23, 2008, 01:03:54 AM
This time, though, I think Steve missed the mark with his analysis of the appeal of stories of the hero's journey.  I've probably taken the symbolism of these stories too much to heart, but I can't view them as tales about someone greater than me doing impossibly great things, but rather as stories about journeys we all take, and dangers we all face (symbolically, obviously) on our way to spiritual growth.  The appeal is that it is a familiar story told in heroic terms, which makes us and our own lives and travails seem more heroic, rather than an unfamiliar story that makes us feel better about ourselves because only really special people could pull it off. 

This follows my line of thought as I listened to the intro as well.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: dragonpearl on February 23, 2008, 02:17:44 AM
I was affected by this piece while narrating it.

I could certainly tell. It was a heartbreaking story and I commend your control.  I only wish I had that kind of control over my emotions sometimes.

Wonderful Story and a wonderful read Steve.  Keep it up.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Sylvan on February 23, 2008, 03:33:40 AM
Initially, I was expecting a Joseph Campbell-esqe tale about going away, having adventure, and returning ... looking back on the adventure as a reflection of what could be and/or what shouldn't have been.  But that's just how I initially expected it.  The truth is, that's the Stereotype of Campbell's work:  the narratives we've come to expect, especially after being assigned to read his thoughts in College.  But here we have another form of Classic Myth:  as Steve said in the outro, the essence of sacrifice.

I find it most interesting because, unlike in the movie "A.I.", here we have an artificial lifeform who has been programmed with choice.  Edward has to be cajoled and encouraged to do things beyond his programming.  He feels that he should do these things because of the love (simulated or otherwise ... that's another debate) he feels for the children.  Edward is simple most of the time and the narrator's trick of the brief "download" allows the reader to understand the scenario in an instant but not have that knowledge undermine the fundamental simplicity of the main character.

Edward was by no means assured to succeed - neither in "real life" nor in narrative reality.  That he worked so hard, out of such simple desires and feelings (not knowing what lay ahead) and feeling the fears and uncertainties everyone feels, makes him more human than most human protagonists.  He is, in another Campbell sense, the "larger-than-life hero" despite being just a Silly Old Bear.

His ending is tragic and beautiful; I think it's remarkable that here was some very well-thought-out science fiction that also tugs at the heartstrings like a masterful harpist.

Kudos to Escape Pod for evoking such great emotion!

Yours,
Sylvan
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: blfane on February 23, 2008, 01:30:19 PM
from the intro that Steve gave I expected a very different type of story as well I mean the way he was talking about it made it seem like it was going to be an almost LOTR style leave home etc but then what the story actually came out as was  a story about a psuodheroic robot (?) bear that contained gratuitous Whinny the Pooh references.

that said great intro anyway ( made me think ) and great narration

It wasn't an almost Lord of the Rings style? Frodo, a smaller-than-life "person," goes on a long journey, encounters "people" that either help or hamper, all to climb a mountain and toss a ring in some lava. Edward Bear, a smaller-than-life "person," goes on a long journey, encounters "people" that either help or hamper, all to climb a mountain and press a button.

The basic formula is very classic: an average person (or hobbit, or Silly Bear) faces almost insurmountable odds in order to accomplish something bigger than themselves, and despite the odds they manage to do it. In fact, if you change Edward into a thousands-ton metal, self-aware tank that's been crippled in some way facing overwhelming enemy forces, but wins the day while sacrificing self), you'd have a nice Bolo story.

In the end, what matters in this type of story is the execution. I found it very easy to become attached to this bear, who has an almost child-like innocence, but having the lives of the people on those last four ships riding in his actions. I think Ken Scholes really pulled this off.

Coupled with Steve's awesome reading of this story, this is probably my favorite EscapePod episode. I'm going to have to share this one around.

Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: High 5 on February 23, 2008, 02:33:49 PM
Nice one, Mr. Scholes.
What a little gem of story!
This one keeps sticking to my brain like honey to a furry bear.
It even managed to throw me off track a couple of times, especially in the beginning.
Definitely one of your better finds, Steve!

I think that Steve's intro's practically always set the stage for the coming story perfectly well.
This intro was no exception to that.
However, I do believe that this story would appeal to children.
Children have quite a good sense of "what is right" and this story would fit in just fine with most of them.
After all, Roald Dahl was not afraid to dish out the most gruesome stories to kids and they seemed to like them very much.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: CammoBlammo on February 23, 2008, 07:52:07 PM

It wasn't an almost Lord of the Rings style? Frodo, a smaller-than-life "person," goes on a long journey, encounters "people" that either help or hamper, all to climb a mountain and toss a ring in some lava. Edward Bear, a smaller-than-life "person," goes on a long journey, encounters "people" that either help or hamper, all to climb a mountain and press a button.


I thought of LOTR and the Hobbit, but I was struck by one difference --- in those two stories, the Frodo, Sam and Bilbo complete the task and have no hope of getting back home. Sam and Frodo are on the mountain waiting for lava to engulf them, and (IIRC) Bilbo gets squished by a troll in a pear shaped battle. In each case, though, the eagles turn up and rescue them.

There are other parallels too. Sam cheers Frodo up with the thought that people will sing songs and tell stories about him.

I was waiting for the eagles to show, but they never came.

Oh well. Edward was a hero, and the end was beautifully poignant.

I really liked this story, although I'm not sure it was that well suited to audio. Some of the characters were a little hard to keep track of. That could be my fault though --- I had to listen to it in about four sittings. I'll have another crack later.

I think the beauty of many hero stories is that they often involve ordinary people who discover they can do extraordinary things. Sometimes ordinary people turn out to be secretly great (eg King Arthur, Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker). Other times ordinary people just turn out to 'have what it takes.' This is a major theme of 'The Hobbit'. Either way, they remind us ordinary people that we don't have to despair at our littleness. If Bilbo, Frodo, Edward Bear, Gideon, Arthur, Harry, Luke and just about every 'Chosen One' from modern fantasy literature can do it, so can we. If I were to end up in their situations, there is no reason to suspect I wouldn't be able to pull through.

This suggests another thought---do we need extraordinary circumstances to prove our heroism? I may not need to throw a ring into a volcano or fight hairy monsters to get my wagon back. But I do have to make some pretty big (and boring) sacrifices to be the best father and husband I can be. My job involves scary people, and I have to face them head on sometimes. If I'm going to be a hero, these are the things I'd like to be remembered for.

I wonder if we could get Norm Sherman to write the song... ;D
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: ajames on February 23, 2008, 08:05:41 PM

In the end, what matters in this type of story is the execution. I found it very easy to become attached to this bear, who has an almost child-like innocence, but having the lives of the people on those last four ships riding in his actions. I think Ken Scholes really pulled this off.


I'll second that.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Bdoomed on February 23, 2008, 10:57:44 PM
That was a beautifully sad story.

I was wondering when Tigger would show.  heh.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: the_wombat on February 24, 2008, 04:46:10 AM
Once again, a story I loved. For some reason that I can never quite put my finger on, I find it very very believable that if and when we manage to create spaceships and AI robots, that we will somehow find a way to make pooh bears...er Edward Bears like this one. It must have something to do with childhood being formative or something, being inspired by wonder and all that. Excellent Story, Many kudos.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Windup on February 24, 2008, 06:44:42 AM
Thanks, Steve, that was a great story. 

I teared up when Edward asked Christopher to "tell me about Someday again, very slowly, until I fall asleep."  Getting me that emotionally involved with an imaginary robotic bear is an unusual achievement.

The characterization of Edward was pitch-perfect.  Re-casting a more-or-less typical "Pooh and Friends" adventure into a literal life and death situation was brilliant.  The only thing that would have improved it would have been a single line from the manifestation of the ship's comptuer, saying that all the other robots had been destroyed or damaged in the crash, and that's why she had to rely on Edward.  It seems unreasonable that a ship that advanced wouldn't have been equipped with other intelligent, mobile devices.  But that is a very, very minor quibble.

I also thought the intro was absolutely right -- parents of young children should listen to the whole thing, and think long and hard about what their child is ready for before playing it for him or her.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Roney on February 24, 2008, 01:13:38 PM
I guess Edward's song was

The bear went over the mountain
The bear went over the mountain
The bear went over the mountain
To see if he could transmit the life-saving medical data to the four remaining arkships


Brilliant story.  I liked some of the little touches, like the fact that Edward seemed to have been slightly over-specced, and have his own desires that he had to forgo to play the games that the children wanted.  To make it plausible that he could undertake the quest (and be a sympathetic hero) he had to be more than just a doll with pre-programmed play routines, but it was good to see it followed through.

I particularly love the idea of the grateful colonists erecting statues in every town square to their founding hero.  Bet they wouldn't, though.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: SFEley on February 24, 2008, 03:29:03 PM
I guess Edward's song was

The bear went over the mountain
The bear went over the mountain
The bear went over the mountain
To see if he could transmit the life-saving medical data to the four remaining arkships

Pre-emptively declaring this QOTW. 

(Not that that should stop anyone else from trying -- we can have more than one.)  >8->
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: eytanz on February 24, 2008, 03:32:41 PM
Not aiming for quote of the week, unless Steve will be in a really cynical mood at recording time, but didn't anyone else wonder whether the parrotchens (or however its spelt) realize that by aiding Edward Bear, they have basically enabled the invasion of their planet by an alien race which has stripped its own home planet dry of resources and is now coming to do the same to their planet?
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Windup on February 24, 2008, 05:56:14 PM
Not aiming for quote of the week, unless Steve will be in a really cynical mood at recording time, but didn't anyone else wonder whether the parrotchens (or however its spelt) realize that by aiding Edward Bear, they have basically enabled the invasion of their planet by an alien race which has stripped its own home planet dry of resources and is now coming to do the same to their planet?
I have to admit, that thought occurred to me, too.  Though I buried it by assuming that the ships were fleeing a non-human-made disaster (eruption of supervolcanoes, or some such) and that we've gotten smarter about planetary management. 

I admit there was no evidence for that within the story, though...
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Nobilis on February 24, 2008, 05:59:46 PM
This isn't a Hero's Journey story.  It's incomplete.  The hero never returns to his home; there's an implication that he might in the future, but it's not really a part of the story.  It's like Star Wars without the medals.

Not that that makes the story BAD--it's actually pretty good--but it's not a classic Hero's Journey story.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: CammoBlammo on February 24, 2008, 06:07:53 PM
Not aiming for quote of the week, unless Steve will be in a really cynical mood at recording time, but didn't anyone else wonder whether the parrotchens (or however its spelt) realize that by aiding Edward Bear, they have basically enabled the invasion of their planet by an alien race which has stripped its own home planet dry of resources and is now coming to do the same to their planet?

Hmm, note to self:

Next time you invade colonise an alien planet, make sure your vanguard is made up of cute, fluffy, robotic teddy bears.

Like my mum used to say, cuddles are far better than shock and awe.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: SFEley on February 24, 2008, 08:37:01 PM
This isn't a Hero's Journey story.  It's incomplete.  The hero never returns to his home; there's an implication that he might in the future, but it's not really a part of the story.  It's like Star Wars without the medals.

My interpretation was that that was covered by having "the boy" and all the animals from his (constructed) memories of the Wood appear to him as he lay dying.  It wasn't a literal physical return home, but it was a spiritual return home.  Since he technically never existed in that Wood to begin with, and the Wood itself never existed, I thought this had appropriate dramatic unity.

And the medals?  Well, the boy does tell him all about the statues and songs and 'pomes' that will be made for him.  Sure, it probably won't happen, but that doesn't matter to Edward Bear.  He gets his closure.

(Yes, I'm commenting with my own opinions on this one more than I usually do.  I still intend not to make a habit of it.)
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: CGFxColONeill on February 24, 2008, 11:49:50 PM
(Yes, I'm commenting with my own opinions on this one more than I usually do.  I still intend not to make a habit of it.)
I think you should keep commenting it is kinda nice to get your opinions and see what made you pick a story ( even if it was not one of your best  in my opinion )

I guess Edward's song was

The bear went over the mountain
The bear went over the mountain
The bear went over the mountain
To see if he could transmit the life-saving medical data to the four remaining arkships



the song I came up w/  yes it was during the episode sorry Steve I know you said not to but it just sort of happened that way
went like this ( to the tune of Day-O)
lame-o
me say lame -o
edward bear is the lamest ep yet
etc
song writing is not my best skill (I am studying engineering for a reason ) but that is what I came up w/

I will prolly get run out of the forum as I seem to be the only one that did not like this one but I hope not lol

Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Thaurismunths on February 25, 2008, 12:16:10 AM
Winnie The Pooh, surrounded by dead children, is my new "happy place."
I really enjoyed the story, aside from my own morbid sense of humor.

Col O'Neil, care to expound on why this was the lamest EP yet?
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: CGFxColONeill on February 25, 2008, 12:19:15 AM
I dont know what exactly it was about it but the story just did not fit w/ the picture I have gotten from the previous episodes of EP
maybe it was because I listened to them all really fast not over a longer time but it just did not measure up to the standard that Steve gave me from past episodes lol
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Darwinist on February 25, 2008, 02:36:52 AM

This one affected me more than any other EP.  In the grand background of planet colonization and interplanetary spaceships this story of a little bear pulled at my heartstrings.  Very well done - can't wait to have my family listen to it. 
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Listener on February 25, 2008, 02:17:32 PM
I didn't know that Winnie the Pooh's real name was Edward Bear.  I was all set to comment on how I was getting tired of the Pooh parallels.

(Don't worry, I'm not going to hijack this into another thread about poo.  Or Pooh.)

I think I enjoyed the story, but I kept waiting for something MORE to happen.  I felt that the climax was when Edward fought the Giant Lumps Of Fur to save the Parrotchen children, then went back in -- I got kind of a Richard-Fights-the-Beast-of-London vibe off that one.  ("Neverwhere" by Neil Gaiman)  After that, it was kind of clear to me that Edward would succeed in his quest, somehow or another.

I expected something either much more sinister or much more allegorically-simplistic -- either Edward had really been at fault for killing the children, or the Very Long Walk would be from the nursery to, say, the engine room.  Perhaps by not knowing that Edward was Pooh and therefore I should've read this with a Milnean tilt, I was missing out or looking in the wrong direction.

I did like the way the author dropped toys and toy-ish thoughts into a futuristic setting.

The reading was fine.  Had a moment of confusion splitting the holo-boy in the nursery and Edward, since their voices were so similar.  Was it just me, or did Steve seem like he was hitting his consonants harder than usual in this one?

Overall, a not-bad story, but not the kind of thing I think I would necessarily like to hear again.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: VBurn on February 25, 2008, 04:53:47 PM
I think I am getting spoiled by the rich production used in Drabblecast, becuase I kept thinking how awesome would this story be with music, effects, and a little wider range of voicing.  No offense intend toward you Steve, you always do a great job and I always appreicated you slight but noticable vocing for each character in strories you read.

But I would love to hear more Norm on EP, but I think he stays pretty busy taking care of his own podcast.  And vise versa if goatkeeper ever reads this board, lets get some Eley on Drabblecast, either as voice talent or a story!  I have not heard a good Steve Eley story in a while. 
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: contra on February 25, 2008, 07:21:10 PM
Awesome story. 

When you see these Elmo toys getting more and more advanced
http://gizmodo.com/356488/first-video-of-elmo-live-singing-and-dancing-shows-he-got-skillz
Latest model... dances, sings, tells jokes and stories... worrying amount of stuff.
You need to wonder where this will end up.  Though I think this story would have been VERY annoying if Elmo was used instead of Pooh.... sorry, Edward >_>.  Though I kinda wanna hear Steve do his best Elmo accent...

So yes I liked this one.  Easily. Awesome.  I liked the ending a lot.  Its exactly how I imagined Edward would react if put in that situation in the end...
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Jhite on February 25, 2008, 07:50:04 PM
I was impressed with this story.  I liked the way it handled the childlike aspect of the bear, but showed only the barest of emotions.  (forgive the unindented pun.) It was obvious to me that Edward had emotions but he didn't show them like a child, despite his child like brain. 

I wondered about the alien species on the planet, obviously there are some, and the idea of humans coming and part of me, the cynical part, hoped for Edward to fail.  Humans, in most sci/fi, don't live well with others.  The idea that a simple species would be wiped out by the "incoming invasion" made me sad.  In a universe where we (humans) seem to think that everything is ours for the taking, and we are the over all smartest beings around, how long would it be before some colonist realized that it was one of these species that had the "bug" that killed the people on the first colony ship. 

Please don't get me wrong, the idea of humans dyeing, epically children, puts a knot right in the pit of my stomach.  Heck, I even cried when  Vader killed the "young-lings" as cheesy as that scene was.  But I think of stories like Garden of Rama, when the "humans" that came killed most of the other creatures on the ship because they felt it was their right to do so.  let's not look at the bigger picture here and figure out how we can live together and help each other.   No way we are humans after all and that makes us the best.  Kill Kill Kill :(

Ooops kind of went off there.  In the end the Alien species and Edward did work together, and he proved as good an ambassador as any other to for us.  I understand that most of my commentary is beyond the scope of the story, but as much as I liked the story for itself, this is what it made me think about.  Sorry for the bit of the soap box.  Just something I have been thinking about a lot lately. 

Great Choice on a story Mr. Eley (ooops Steve.)  Keep'em coming
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Loz on February 25, 2008, 09:25:37 PM
Holy Spaghetti Monster but I really didn't need to listen to that story on my way to work on a Monday morning, still, at least my tears mingled with those of other wage slaves heading towards Canary Wharf.

I thought it spoke well of a society that even a throw-away disposable toy like Edward Bear has subroutines designed to comfort him in what is presumably supposed to be the unlikely event of his being so damaged he's going to die. All in all, I think that suggests a race that actually deserves to survive.

I think this story is up there with 'Ej-Es' as one of my most favourite stories so far.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: stePH on February 26, 2008, 01:52:57 AM
That was a beautifully sad story.

I was wondering when Tigger would show.  heh.
I missed Eeyore.  :(
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Rain on February 26, 2008, 11:57:20 AM
Very good story. i think it could maybe have been better if the explanation (spaceship, virus, signal transmitter etc.) had been left for last so that it could have had a fantasy style feel with a science fiction reveal at the end, but it was still very enjoyable
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: ClintMemo on February 26, 2008, 12:53:29 PM
Though I think this story would have been VERY annoying if Elmo was used instead of Pooh..

Puncture-me Elmo?
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: ClintMemo on February 26, 2008, 12:59:25 PM
I read quite a few Pooh books to my daughter when she was younger, so this story really hit home for me. 

Good story.
Good reading.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Anarkey on February 26, 2008, 04:35:07 PM
Man, I hate to speak up and remove all doubt of my cold-hearted bitchedness, but this story...

I didn't think it was moving, unless by moving you mean my hand moving to the delete key as quickly as possible.

This is not an execution criticism, I think it was well-written and that it held together thematically (though the ending, because I wasn't all emotionally hooked, gave me a few 'that doesn't make any sense' moments) and it was a very good example of its type.

But urgh.  I had cute allergy so strong I thought I might have to whip out the Benadryl.

I am astonished at the number of people for whom this tale produced a wave of nostalgia and emotional connectedness.  I am flipped out by how many people this story this worked for.  To each his own, as they say, except apparently the masses have an own that boggles my poor outsider mind.

I like Pooh just fine!  I've sat through "Piglet's Big Movie" with my daughter at least seventeen times, and I still enjoy it.  Further, I'd wager my love of children's lit exceeds that of most people's here. 

But man, I haven't had this kind of negative "Gimme a break," reaction since the EP story about the penguin balloon and I thought I'd be less alone in the naysaying camp.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: DKT on February 26, 2008, 05:15:42 PM
Was it the cute allegory bit that bothered you, Anarkey?  I can tell you didn't like the story, but I'm not 100% sure why.

I'm in the other camp.  At first, I thought it was going to be a rollicking adventure story, more Winnie the Pooh Conquers the Martians than LotR, but although I still got a definite feel of adventure, it came off more nostalgic and emotional than I expected it to be.  Pooh's "Tell me about Someday" at the end got me a little teary-eyed.  I really like what I've read by Ken Scholes (about three stories now).  It'd be cool to hear more from him.  And I think this one of the best readings I've heard Steve give. 
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: eytanz on February 26, 2008, 06:21:33 PM
While my reaction wasn't as negative as Anarkey's, I have a serious problem with this story, and I've been struggling with myself for the past few days trying to understand it and express it. Here is an attempt to do so; you'll probably learn quite a lot more about me than you ever cared to if you read it.

Winnie the Pooh and The House at Pooh Corner were two of my most beloved childhood books. The badly worn copy of The House at Pooh Corner that sits on my shelf right now is the second one I owned - the first fell apart from repeated reading. The relatively pristine copy of Winnie the Pooh that sits by it is the third one, the first two having suffered the same fate.

Notice that I made reference to the books - the original ones - and not to the Disney movie/books/franchise. I never saw the Disney movie; or if I did see it as a child, I had forgotten about it a long time ago. Movies played a large role in my teen years, but they were not that important in my childhood. But, for as long as I can remember I loved reading, and before I could do that my parents used to read to me nearly every night.

This story is competant. It is touching. I'll grant that. But it would be as compentant and touching if it was about a toy bear that was not a literary referent. If instead of Edward bear we had George Bear, and instead of halucinating recognizable characters he dreamt of his parents and siblings (for example), the story would work just as well, or nearly so.

Instead, the story co-opts a well-known set of characters (and, mind you, it doesn't even have the temerity to do so properly - either totally ignoring copyright or getting permission - and instead plays a weasly game of "lets get as close as possible to being explicit without crossing the line". This works sometimes, when it's not a main plot point as it Late December, but here it just felt stupid. End of tangent) - it co-opts well-known characters, and in doing so, it sets itself up against a whole new set of expectations.

As far as I am concerned, the ending of "The House at Pooh Corner" was, and still is, one of the most touching and poignent endings in all literature. It is as bittersweet and tragic as the end of childhood always is.

The ending of this story, while touching, doesn't come anywhere near. Maybe it's just me, but self-sacrifice isn't nearly as universal or tragic as the inevitability of leaving one's childhood behind.

I'm not sure why the author of this story chose to use Pooh as his main character - there could be a variety of reasons, some better than others. But in doing so, he set himself up to a comparison against a source he cannot best, or even improve. I'm not upset - if I were to be upset at the commodification of Pooh I'd have far greater targets to be angry at than this story. I'm just unimpressed. Someone just tried to repackage a part of my childhood and hand it back to me with a more sophisticated, more adult finish. But, just like in the books' ending, there's a place inside me where my childhood still lives, and that place is always going to be more attractive than this new packaging.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: eytanz on February 26, 2008, 06:31:51 PM
Addendum: I should point out that I fully understand the very positive reactions most people had to this story. From an objective viewpoint, I share most of them. It was just hard for me to connect emotionally to it, for the reasons explained above.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Jhite on February 26, 2008, 09:08:06 PM
I'm not sure why the author of this story choose to use Pooh as his main character - there could be a variety of reasons, some better than others. But in doing so, he set himself up to a comparison against a source he cannot best, or even improve. I'm not upset - if I were to be upset at the commodification of Pooh I'd have far greater targets to be angry at than this story. I'm just unimpressed. Someone just tried to repackage a part of my childhood and hand it back to me with a more sophisticated, more adult finish. But, just like in the books' ending, there's a place inside me where my childhood still lives, and that place is always going to be more attractive than this new packaging.

     I think, and this is my humble opinion, that many authors, myself included, look for short cuts.  That is the long and short of it.  You, as an author, have say 10k works to build a world, build a set of characters in that world, and tell a story.  The nature of sci/fi is that all of those things may be unfamiliar to the reader, so you have to "spend" some of your words on explaining these things to the reader.  If you borrow your setting, a character, or a plot from another source you can avoid some of this.  I have to say at this point that I think that it is a measure of a good Sci/fi author by how little of this he/she has to do and still let us see a world and characters and a plot that don't look like cardboard cut outs.

****** I took out most of what I originally posted  because I sounded preachy  but here is the gist*******

Blah Blah blah FanFic Blah blah blah Pale Copy of the original blah blah blah Movies not a good as books, blah blah blah could have done better. blah blah blah!

     I was able to enjoy the story because I looked past the references to pooh and thought about the rest of it.  As my first post suggests I was more worried about the native life on the planet than I was about what this bear happened to be called.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Anarkey on February 26, 2008, 09:16:47 PM
Was it the cute allegory bit that bothered you, Anarkey?  I can tell you didn't like the story, but I'm not 100% sure why.

No, not the allegory so much.  The bit that bothered me was that I felt the bear was portrayed over-emotionally, with language that pandered to triteness and sentimentality (for that matter, the ship AI moaning about her terrible mistake also set my teeth to the very edge.  I wanted to reach into the story, smack her, then tell her to stop acting so hysterical).  Why does Edward hope?  Why does he need to be assured of his value in the world?  Why is he afraid of death (the children's, his own)? I don't get it.  I think I was supposed to be all fuzzed up (ha!) about the teddy bear factor (plusextramegaplus if I noticed that the bear was Pooh) and I think the author threw out those lines thinking they were enough to make me give a damn instead of making the bear an actual for real character with any kind of complexity. 

The natives critters also bugged me.  Guh, talk about noble savage squared.

Dear Authors: 
your noble savages are neither noble nor savage.  Cut it out.  Write real characters who happen to be of a race/species/whatever because I can't take any more of the stereotype cookie cuttering.  Thanks!  Kisses, Anarkey.

There was a moment in the story that completely worked for me.  It was the moment when the bear is wired in, has full comprehension of the plan and the need for it and realizes he must toss three quarters of that info out because he can't retain it (though apparently throwing out the 'there, there, you're a hero, everything's ok' subroutine in order to save space does not occur to him).  That moment was understated and really walloped me (it's laced right into one of my storytelling kinks, too, the hard choices one) instead of sledgehammery and sappy like the opening and closing sequences.  If the whole story had been like that moment in emotional tenor and character illumination, I might have liked it better.  I also might have liked it better if I ever thought the bear was in any real danger of failing to complete the mission, but I didn't buy any of the close calls.

I also had a critical failure of funny, which I think this story needed if it was going to be about Pooh.

As far as I am concerned, the ending of "The House at Pooh Corner" was, and still is, one of the most touching and poignent endings in all literature. It is as bittersweet and tragic as the end of childhood always is.

The ending of this story, while touching, doesn't come anywhere near. Maybe it's just me, but self-sacrifice isn't nearly as universal or tragic as the inevitability of leaving one's childhood behind.

YES.  Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes!  It is not just you.  You nailed it, eytanz, better than I could have said it. 

I'm not sure why the author of this story choose to use Pooh as his main character - there could be a variety of reasons, some better than others. But in doing so, he set himself up to a comparison against a source he cannot best, or even improve.

Right on.  He invites comparisons that are unlikely to go favorably his way.  I have this same problem with remakes of old songs.  Nine times out of ten I'm like,"Uh.  Ok.  But why?"

Of course the one time out of ten I'm like OMG THIS IS AWESOME (They Might Be Giants' cover of "Istanbul not Constantinople" frex).  But this story was definitely in the nine times out of ten category.

P.S.  I also agree with eytanz that the Eekhout story did a better job of being referential.  It was also better at successfully engaging me emotionally.  Have I mentioned that I love Eekhout?  His stories make my heart go pitter patter.  See?  I'm not a complete hater.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: DKT on February 26, 2008, 09:44:55 PM
Thanks, Anarkey and eytanz.  I totally get where you're coming from.  I haven't read all the Milne stuff, so maybe I don't have the same baggage, but I understand your perspective.  (I'm also starting to wonder if you two are split personalities ;))

     I think, and this is my humble opinion, that many authors, myself included, look for short cuts.  That is the long and short of it.  You, as an author, have say 10k works to build a world, build a set of characters in that world, and tell a story.  The nature of sci/fi is that all of those things may be unfamiliar to the reader, so you have to "spend" some of your words on explaining these things to the reader.  If you borrow your setting, a character, or a plot from another source you can avoid some of this.  I have to say at this point that I think that it is a measure of a good Sci/fi author by how little of this he/she has to do and still let us see a world and characters and a plot that don't look like cardboard cut outs.

I don't know, Jhite.  I think you're overlooking something.  I don't think the author used the Pooh Bear thing so much as a shortcut as he thought it would be fun story.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: DKT on February 26, 2008, 09:47:14 PM
****** I took out most of what I originally posted  because I sounded preachy  but here is the gist*******

Blah Blah blah FanFic Blah blah blah Pale Copy of the original blah blah blah Movies not a good as books, blah blah blah could have done better. blah blah blah!

Yeah, I was going to post about that, too, then realized you took it out.  Pretty much, my arguement was it's not Fanfic (not there's anything wrong with that) anymore than blah blah blah A.I. blah blah blah Pinnochio.  :)
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Darwinist on February 26, 2008, 09:54:05 PM
Of course the one time out of ten I'm like OMG THIS IS AWESOME (They Might Be Giants' cover of "Istanbul not Constantinople" frex).  But this story was definitely in the nine times out of ten category.

Aimee Mann's "Baby Blue"

Back to Pooh discussion..........
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Jhite on February 26, 2008, 09:58:34 PM
****** I took out most of what I originally posted  because I sounded preachy  but here is the gist*******

Blah Blah blah FanFic Blah blah blah Pale Copy of the original blah blah blah Movies not a good as books, blah blah blah could have done better. blah blah blah!

Yeah, I was going to post about that, too, then realized you took it out.  Pretty much, my arguement was it's not Fanfic (not there's anything wrong with that) anymore than blah blah blah A.I. blah blah blah Pinnochio.  :)

I had hoped I pulled it out before anyone saw it.   

I don't really think it was FanFic but borderline enough that I thought about it. But also borderline enough that I was able to ignore that part of it and think about important things like the prime directive.  "Something you can transplant?  You boys have got to get this straight, there can be so much as a microbe of the show is off."  Relating back to my first post.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: eytanz on February 26, 2008, 10:02:44 PM
I'm not sure why the author of this story choose to use Pooh as his main character - there could be a variety of reasons, some better than others.

     I think, and this is my humble opinion, that many authors, myself included, look for short cuts.

That's certainly one of the possibilities, but I'm inclined to be more generous to the author and think that there was more to it than that.

Quote from: Jhite
     I was able to enjoy the story because I looked past the references to pooh and thought about the rest of it.  As my first post suggests I was more worried about the native life on the planet than I was about what this bear happened to be called.

I was concerned about that too (see my earlier post on the topic). I have a feeling that you and I were thinking about while the story was going on is a symptom of the fact that it didn't entirely work for us, not a cause, though.

(for that matter, the ship AI moaning about her terrible mistake also set my teeth to the very edge.  I wanted to reach into the story, smack her, then tell her to stop acting so hysterical).

I didn't think of that before, but that's a really good point. Especially since the recap of the events implied that the AI didn't really make a mistake so much as there was a mechanical failure she could not control, which triggered a cascade of unforseeable disasters. Unless the AI also designed the ship, I can't see why she should blame herself. And who programs an AI that will have emotional meltdowns in the first place?

Maybe it was some sort of subtle trigger for the bear's programming - maybe the bear is supposed to react in a certain way to crying children and the AI needed to act that way to manipulate him into agreeing to help her/it. But if so, it wasn't very clear from the story.


Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Jhite on February 26, 2008, 10:31:44 PM
Quote from: eytanz
Quote

I'm not sure why the author of this story choose to use Pooh as his main character - there could be a variety of reasons, some better than others.

     I think, and this is my humble opinion, that many authors, myself included, look for short cuts.

That's certainly one of the possibilities, but I'm inclined to be more generous to the author and think that there was more to it than that.

Just for my own curiosity what do you think the author might have been trying to do.  Maybe right their own version of the pooh story?  If they where it didn't really work as you and other have pointed out.  That is why I said it was a short cut.  I have a ready-made  character that everyone already knows the history of, check now move on to the story.

Quote
was concerned about that too (see my earlier post on the topic). I have a feeling that you and I were thinking about while the story was going on is a symptom of the fact that it didn't entirely work for us, not a cause, though.
I know I was distracted by this all through the story enough that I tuned out the annoying talk about pooh, but I guess I really didn't think of it like that.  I thought it was intended to just make me think about other things.  (subliminally you want a coke and a box of popcorn) if you know what I mean.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: CGFxColONeill on February 26, 2008, 10:43:22 PM
The ending of this story, while touching, doesn't come anywhere near. Maybe it's just me, but self-sacrifice isn't nearly as universal or tragic as the inevitability of leaving one's childhood behind.

also maybe the self-sacrifice is overused as a literary or film plot?
just a thought
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: DKT on February 26, 2008, 10:53:22 PM
Quote from: eytanz
Quote

I'm not sure why the author of this story choose to use Pooh as his main character - there could be a variety of reasons, some better than others.

     I think, and this is my humble opinion, that many authors, myself included, look for short cuts.

That's certainly one of the possibilities, but I'm inclined to be more generous to the author and think that there was more to it than that.

Just for my own curiosity what do you think the author might have been trying to do.  Maybe right their own version of the pooh story?  If they where it didn't really work as you and other have pointed out.  That is why I said it was a short cut.  I have a ready-made  character that everyone already knows the history of, check now move on to the story.

It's not really aimed at me, I still think he thought it was just a fun idea, to have a story about Winnie the Pooh in space.  And who knows?  He might've been feeling a bit nostalgic at the time, too. 

The ending of this story, while touching, doesn't come anywhere near. Maybe it's just me, but self-sacrifice isn't nearly as universal or tragic as the inevitability of leaving one's childhood behind.

also maybe the self-sacrifice is overused as a literary or film plot?
just a thought

Maybe, but for me it's not so much whether or not it's overdone, as much as whether or not it's done/executed well.  However, there seems to be some debate on that subject :) 
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Swamp on February 26, 2008, 11:34:26 PM
Just for my own curiosity what do you think the author might have been trying to do.  Maybe right their own version of the pooh story?  If they where it didn't really work as you and other have pointed out.  That is why I said it was a short cut.  I have a ready-made  character that everyone already knows the history of, check now move on to the story.

I think the author had an affinity for Winnie-the-Pooh, as shown in the Pooh references down to the imitation of writing style.  I think it was meant as an homage to a loved character.  Of course I have no way of knowing for sure.  Obviously, it didn't work for everyone, but it did for me.

The natives critters also bugged me.  Guh, talk about noble savage squared.

I picked up on the noble savage schtick, but overlooked it because I liked to rest of the story.

I also had a critical failure of funny, which I think this story needed if it was going to be about Pooh.

I agree that there was a lack of Pooh-associated humor with the story, though the circumstances were grim.  I think the parrot people were supposed to be the comic relief, and succeed mildly at first (due to Steve's production), but soon fell flat.

As far as I am concerned, the ending of "The House at Pooh Corner" was, and still is, one of the most touching and poignent endings in all literature. It is as bittersweet and tragic as the end of childhood always is.

The ending of this story, while touching, doesn't come anywhere near. Maybe it's just me, but self-sacrifice isn't nearly as universal or tragic as the inevitability of leaving one's childhood behind.

I cannot argue with you on that.  You speak the truth.  Nothing has come close to giving me the feelings I get at the end of the book (even more so now as an adult).  However, I still enjoyed this story, which I view as a tribute rather than an attempt to replace the original.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: CGFxColONeill on February 26, 2008, 11:36:47 PM
Maybe, but for me it's not so much whether or not it's overdone, as much as whether or not it's done/executed well.  However, there seems to be some debate on that subject :) 

that was my intent w/ the comment it is so over used that in order for it to work it must be well done/ executed
sorry for the lack of clarity on my part

also when I say I did not like it I am not going after the narration it can only be as good as the story that is being narrated
Steve you should do many more episodes
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: wakela on February 27, 2008, 12:26:40 AM
Disclaimer: I feel no particular affinity for Winnie the Pooh.

I enjoyed listening to the story, but it could have been better.  I'm also surprised at what a positive response it got.  Bravery was mentioned several times, but Edward doesn't seem particularly brave or cowardly.  He is too ignorant of the danger to be truly brave.  He is also too ignorant to be making a real sacrifice.   Frodo and Sam at least had some inkling they wouldn't be coming home, and at one point they knew it without a doubt.  Edward doesn't seem to struggle with this.  He doesn't seem to struggle with anything.  He didn't even struggle with leaving the nursery even though he said he would.  Maybe that is Pooh, but it's not dramatic tension.

The twist on this hero's journey is largely cosmetic.  It would have been more interesting if Edward's nature as a robot toy bear gave him unique limitations or abilities.   I'm surprised that he was even able to attack anything.  Why would you design a children's toy that is remotely capable of violence?  Why would a robot need a sub-brain to comfort it as it dies?  Some of you probably think I am missing the point, but as a science fiction fan, these things break my suspension of disbelief, and they frustrate me because a more interesting story would have resulted in their consideration.  OK, the monsters have your wagon.  How do you get it back without attacking them?

This came across as more ranty than I intended.  I DID enjoyed listening to the story, and I cared what happened.  But there was a much better story that could have come from this idea.


Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: gelee on February 27, 2008, 01:21:47 PM
Great story, and very moving.  Certainly one of my favorite EP's to date.
I should say that I didn't really get any exposure to "children's lit" as a child, so I have no particular attachment to Milne's work.  For me, this story stands on it's own.
I'm also a little shocked at the negative reactions to this story.  Wow, I thought I was cynical.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Darwinist on February 27, 2008, 02:30:00 PM
Great story, and very moving.  Certainly one of my favorite EP's to date.
I should say that I didn't really get any exposure to "children's lit" as a child, so I have no particular attachment to Milne's work.  For me, this story stands on it's own.
I'm also a little shocked at the negative reactions to this story.  Wow, I thought I was cynical.


I am also shocked at all the negative reactions.  I really, really liked this one. But I tend to like most of the EP stories, and not have much in the way of strong negative feelings towards them.  (Exceptions being Acepheous Dreams and that steampunk story from last fall).  After reading some of the commentary about this episode I feel like a bit of a simpleton.  While listening I just don't nitpick that much.  I think a lot of the people that liked it said so briefly while those with negative feelings felt the need to write more to explain their points of view. 
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Anarkey on February 27, 2008, 04:19:08 PM
I am also shocked at all the negative reactions.  I really, really liked this one. But I tend to like most of the EP stories, and not have much in the way of strong negative feelings towards them.  (Exceptions being Acepheous Dreams and that steampunk story from last fall).  After reading some of the commentary about this episode I feel like a bit of a simpleton.  While listening I just don't nitpick that much.  I think a lot of the people that liked it said so briefly while those with negative feelings felt the need to write more to explain their points of view. 

For the record, I can comment just as volubly on pieces I have loved as on pieces I disdain.  Often someone beats me to the punch on the specific parts I love (*cough* eytanz *cough*), however, and I try not to post too much in the 'me too' vein, so that may affect the balance of my posts.   

I also don't post in an attempt to throwdown intellectually, or make anyone feel like a simpleton.  OTOH, I refuse to apologize for the breadth of my vocabulary, or my expressions of critical thought.  Been there, done that, quite finished, thank you.  I post primarily because I'm interested, either in the stories themselves or in the reactions to them (and I include my own reaction to stories in the set of things I find interesting).

I have a strong lit crit background, and analyzing stories is part of the fun of it for me.  I can enjoy stories at face value, without analysis, sure, but I get deeper enjoyment out of things I can take apart and think about, and I get the deepest enjoyment out of stories that engage me *both* intellectually and emotionally.  I am not best pleased by fiction that requires turning my brain off to enjoy it.  The desire to deconstruct and examine the parts is a basic geek drive, and I'm surprised to find it scorned as 'nitpicking' and/or 'missing the point' (in another thread).

Your statement that you don't nitpick while listening is valid for most listeners, I believe.  I see fewer flaws in stories that engage me than in ones that fail to suck me in.  Debra Doyle, at the Viable Paradise workshop, calls this phenomenon "people don't count rivets on a moving train".  In stories that I don't like, often the train just isn't moving fast enough, and I start counting rivets, and noticing they're not quite right.  This is still, as far as I'm concerned, an error on the author's part.  They have, or should have, control of the pacing of the story.

That said, I don't think slow train motion was the problem for me in this story.  As I believe I stated upthread, the story is fine from a technical execution standpoint (unlike Friction, which I think had logical holes big enough to swallow small suns, which I perhaps wouldn't have noticed had things moved along at a better pace).  After thinking (and posting) about it, I think it's of a type of story that just doesn't connect with me.  When I tried to think of other stories of its type, I came up with Eugie Foster's Penguin Balloon story (what was it called?), which I also hated but at the time I heard it, I felt that was maybe because of the baby-voiced reading it got (though I usually like Mur's readings).  And it's not that I hate Eugie's stuff, either, because her Pseudopod story "Oranges, Lemons and Thou Beside Me" is in my top three favorite Pseudopod's EVER.  So, in essence, my 'nitpicking' is more like my exploration, out loud and in public, of elements in storytelling that work (or don't) for me.  Apparently, toys are a hard sell for me, and the author will have to work hard against my prejudices to make me like a story intended for adults with a toy as protagonist (I can think of plenty of examples I like in children's lit.).  Now I know more about what I like in stories, and that should help me find more stuff I like and avoid stuff that I don't like.  To me this is a good thing, achieved by my thinking critically about why I didn't like this particular story. 
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Listener on February 27, 2008, 04:20:43 PM
Your statement that you don't nitpick while listening is valid for most listeners, I believe.  I see fewer flaws in stories that engage me than in ones that fail to suck me in.  Debra Doyle, at the Viable Paradise workshop, calls this phenomenon "people don't count rivets on a moving train".  In stories that I don't like, often the train just isn't moving fast enough, and I start counting rivets, and noticing they're not quite right.  This is still, as far as I'm concerned, an error on the author's part.  They have, or should have, control of the pacing of the story.

I heart Debra Doyle & James Macdonald.  I really wish they'd finish their Arekhon trilogy.

End of sidebar.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: eytanz on February 27, 2008, 04:36:45 PM
I am also shocked at all the negative reactions.  I really, really liked this one. But I tend to like most of the EP stories, and not have much in the way of strong negative feelings towards them.  (Exceptions being Acepheous Dreams and that steampunk story from last fall).  After reading some of the commentary about this episode I feel like a bit of a simpleton.  While listening I just don't nitpick that much.  I think a lot of the people that liked it said so briefly while those with negative feelings felt the need to write more to explain their points of view. 

I'm a natural-born (or maybe bred, lets not get into nature vs. nurture here) nitpicker. It's what comes naturally to me, and, as an academic, it's what I've been trained to do for a living. Just like Anarkey, for me analyzing the stories is part of the fun.

What I find interesting is the impression that the nitpicks give. I didn't have a negative reaction to the story. I had a positive reaction to one. Just not a purely positive one. And, when writing about it, I chose to write about the less positive parts, because I think those are more interesting. That's not always the case - I just requested a thread for "The Dream Factory" specifically so I can highlight the one overwhelmingly positive aspect in an otherwise negative response to a story - but it often is. And in this case, I think it was important to me to highlight the problems I've had with the story's premise because much of the prior response was overwhlemingly positive (Anarkey's post above mine being the exception). It's a lot more interesting to try to engage in a discussion with people I disagree with than to discuss things with people I agree with, at least until the point where the discussion shifts into an argument.

So, my post may have focused on the negative aspects, which might give the impression I had a negative opinion. That is, however, not the case.

Beyond that, the last thing I want to do is make anyone feel like a simpleton. I enjoy sharing an opinion, and I enjoy discussing it. But there is nothing about either of those facts that makes my opinions more valid or important than the opinions of people who are not as detailed or involved in writing about them.  I'm nitpicky and verbose, that's my style; but my opinions are still nothing more and nothing less than opinions, and no better or worse than those of people with less nitpicky or less verbose writing styles.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Swamp on February 27, 2008, 05:04:19 PM
I'm also a little shocked at the negative reactions to this story.  Wow, I thought I was cynical.

I am also shocked at all the negative reactions.  I really, really liked this one.

I'm glad you both enjoyed the story.  So did I.  However, I think these comments fall under the category of critiquing the critique, which Steve has warned against multiple times.  It's not a big deal, but if you want someone to see your opinion as valid, why not extend that same courtesy to others, especially regarding literature.

If I learned anything from the flash contest last year, it is that a given story will always be viewed differently by its audience.  And that's a good thing.  We learn from each other.  Why are you shocked that someone has a different opinion that you do?  Even if you really, really, really, really like something, that doesn't gaurantee eveyone else will.  I loved this story, as did many others.  Anarkey strongly disliked it; eytanz highlighted negative points about it.  So?   I have learned from their explanations as to why they disliked it, and I took a second look at why I liked it so much.  The bottom line is that I still love the story, but understand where it fell short for them.  That is what a forum is for.  I have learned it is best to simply share my opinions and observations and let everyone else do the same.

Then again, here I am critiquing the critique of the critique.  Now I have probably started a sideline discussion.  I just wanted to share my thoughts on what I have learned in order to enjoy these forums for myself. 

Back to comments about Edward...
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: gelee on February 27, 2008, 05:47:38 PM
I wouldn't suggest anyone not think about a story, and my intent is not to critique the criticism.  I would also not suggest that anyone abridge their vocabulary.  I was simply surprised at the reactions to the story.  I disagree with some of the points made, but didn't intend to make a big deal about it.  I was a little late in listening to this story, and it seemed to me most of the important points had already been made.
I don't think I need to turn my brain off to enjoy this story.  I, too, lean toward the analytical, but I arrive at different conclusions about this story.  I think Pooh/Edward makes an excellent "everyman" protagonist.  The story nicely illustrates the idea that even the lowly are capable of heroism when called upon.
Using an established group of fictional characters is the same sort of short-hand employed when using "stereotypical" characters, such as the nameless prostitute from an earlier EP.  The author is saved the time and trouble of building this character out of whole cloth.  That may be cardinal sin in a novel, but the short story format allows for this sort of thing from time to time.
I also don't think that the "nobel savage" tag doesn't fit the Parrot-ishes (did we ever agree on a proper spelling for them?).  Part of the old "nobel savage" trope is the portrayal of primitives as living in a somehow ideal state, at the very least in harmony with his natural surroundings.  I don't think the author let us see enough of the Pariteches to make a determination about their "nobility".  I think the fact that their offspring were about to be eaten by giant hairy hummocks argues against the idea that they were living in harmony with their environment.  Perhaps they were terrified of the bear, and simply pointed out the location of his wagon in the hopes that this strange being from outer space would kill the wagon thieves, thereby saving their young incidentally?
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Kaa on February 27, 2008, 06:59:55 PM
I fall into the "loved it" camp.  Unfortunately, not heeding Steve's warning, I decided to listen to it at work during lunch.

Beeg. Mistake.

It was a very touching story told exceptionally well by Steve.  I could tell from his voice that he was very moved by the story, and that went a long way towards my own...moved...ness.

I enjoyed the Disnified movies of Pooh.  And so the only thing that would have made this story better for me would be if--somehow--Sterling Holloway could have read it.

First Resnick and now this...Steve, what happened to "fun"? :) 
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Faldor on February 27, 2008, 07:46:47 PM
I've been listening to EP since last October and this is the first story I turned off half way through, I didnt think it was particularly bad, it just didnt appeal to me.

I couldnt identify with the main character who simply did things because he was told too and wasnt really sure why. It was a terribly bleak story with some excellent oppitunities for dark humour which were missed.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Kaa on February 27, 2008, 07:48:51 PM
I couldnt identify with the main character who simply did things because he was told too and wasnt really sure why.

Hmm. This sounds like every day at work.

YMMV. :)
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Jhite on February 27, 2008, 10:24:50 PM
I couldnt identify with the main character who simply did things because he was told too and wasnt really sure why.

Hmm. This sounds like every day at work.

YMMV. :)

Yet another reason  why some people might not have liked it.  Too much unquestioning order following.  Too much like work. :)  Not that I felt this way about it.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: deflective on February 27, 2008, 11:26:24 PM
Yet another reason why some people might not have liked it.  Too much unquestioning order following.

like a child's world.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: wakela on February 27, 2008, 11:30:30 PM
I couldnt identify with the main character who simply did things because he was told too and wasnt really sure why.

Hmm. This sounds like every day at work.

YMMV. :)

Yet another reason  why some people might not have liked it.  Too much unquestioning order following.  Too much like work. :)  Not that I felt this way about it.
I didn't have a problem with the order following.  A lot of good can also come out of following orders.  There just didn't seem to be any internal or external struggle with Edward.  I never doubted that he would make it, so when he did there was less emotional impact.

Quote from: gelee
I think the fact that their offspring were about to be eaten by giant hairy hummocks argues against the idea that they were living in harmony with their environment.  Perhaps they were terrified of the bear, and simply pointed out the location of his wagon in the hopes that this strange being from outer space would kill the wagon thieves, thereby saving their young incidentally?
You want cynical?  I was thinking that the Parrotishes took his wagon and shoved it into the monster cave because they didn't want to risk their own necks rescuing the children.   I think they'll give those evil, destructive humans a run for their money. 
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: CGFxColONeill on February 28, 2008, 02:49:41 AM
wow and I thought I was a cynic lol
I can barely compare with that


sorry for the terrible pun it was to easy not to use it
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: ajames on February 28, 2008, 02:57:12 AM
I'm also a little shocked at the negative reactions to this story.  Wow, I thought I was cynical.

I am also shocked at all the negative reactions.  I really, really liked this one.

I'm glad you both enjoyed the story.  So did I.  However, I think these comments fall under the category of critiquing the critique, which Steve has warned against multiple times. 

[large snip]

Then again, here I am critiquing the critique of the critique.  Now I have probably started a sideline discussion.  I just wanted to share my thoughts on what I have learned in order to enjoy these forums for myself.  [tiny snip]

I disagree.  However, I must admit that my disagreement is entirely based upon my desire to say that I critiqued the critique of the critique of the critique...
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Damon_TFB on February 28, 2008, 03:54:24 AM
While not in my top 10 EPs, this was thought-provoking.

At one point, I thought Edwin Bear was going to be parent/ruler of a colony of test-tube babies.  I also spent quite a bit of time reminded of the teddy bear from the movie A.I.  What emergency programing would we design into Elmo 2500?

I was also reminded of one of my favorite sig files from Slashdot:

"Oh, bother," said Pooh, as he chambered another round.

Thanks, Steve!  And keep up the good work!
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on February 28, 2008, 01:31:46 PM

...I was waiting for the eagles to show, but they never came.

...I wonder if we could get Norm Sherman to write the song... ;D



I kept waiting to hear Edward's songs... some kind of Cottleston Pie sort of thing...

...but now I am humming Cottleston Pie and hearing Jackson Browne and Don Henley...   ???
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Swamp on February 28, 2008, 09:40:29 PM
I was also reminded of one of my favorite sig files from Slashdot:

"Oh, bother," said Pooh, as he chambered another round.

 :D Now that's funny.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: goatkeeper on February 29, 2008, 04:07:48 AM
I think I am getting spoiled by the rich production used in Drabblecast, becuase I kept thinking how awesome would this story be with music, effects, and a little wider range of voicing.  No offense intend toward you Steve, you always do a great job and I always appreicated you slight but noticable vocing for each character in strories you read.

But I would love to hear more Norm on EP, but I think he stays pretty busy taking care of his own podcast.  And vise versa if goatkeeper ever reads this board, lets get some Eley on Drabblecast, either as voice talent or a story!  I have not heard a good Steve Eley story in a while. 

It'd be great to have a Steve story at Drabblecast.  The Malcontent is still one of my fav EP stories.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Roney on March 01, 2008, 01:17:08 AM
(for that matter, the ship AI moaning about her terrible mistake also set my teeth to the very edge.  I wanted to reach into the story, smack her, then tell her to stop acting so hysterical).

I didn't think of that before, but that's a really good point. Especially since the recap of the events implied that the AI didn't really make a mistake so much as there was a mechanical failure she could not control, which triggered a cascade of unforseeable disasters. Unless the AI also designed the ship, I can't see why she should blame herself. And who programs an AI that will have emotional meltdowns in the first place?

This seemed of a piece with the over-engineering of Edward Bear.  I assumed that the designers of the ship AI had made it excessively protective of its passengers, so that it would look after them properly instead of taking the nice ship it had been given and wandering around the galaxy looking for interesting astrophysical phenomena.  When they all died it had lost its entire reason for being, like a Talkie Toaster with no bread, and it went a bit mad.

The constant sly Pooh references were a bit wearing but I think I must have mentally edited them out while listening.  This is something I have a tendency to do with minor irritants in an otherwise engaging story: I hear the next draft of it with its "obvious" flaws removed.  (This doesn't really help the critting process.)  Obviously the Pooh business didn't annoy me too much or this mental redrafting wouldn't have worked.  I agree that it would have been better with an original bear character, as using Pooh didn't seem to add anything other than the threat of litigation.

There just didn't seem to be any internal or external struggle with Edward.  I never doubted that he would make it, so when he did there was less emotional impact.

The internal struggle was all at the start.  Once he'd accepted the quest he seemed to be propelled onwards by whatever warped moral code his designers had hardwired into him.  I really liked seeing it from Edward's perspective: he kind of knew that he'd taken on a task that was too big for him, but because of his limited understanding only the listener knows just how far out of his depth he is.  This continues at every stage of the journey, where we quickly understand that failure is much the most likely outcome each time.  There can't really be an external struggle when the hero doesn't even understand the obstacle.  It's only through a refusal to quit and blind luck that he makes it -- or, because this is a Quest, Edward prevails because he is Moral, and Pure, and Unwavering.  (Or because he is slightly Dim, which often seems to be favoured in these sorts of stories.)

I never doubted that he would make it either, and that with the odds stacked so heavily against him the success would be wildly implausible.  That was part of the charm.  I liked a Hero who didn't even know what he'd achieved or how he'd achieved it.

Quote from: wakela
You want cynical?  I was thinking that the Parrotishes took his wagon and shoved it into the monster cave because they didn't want to risk their own necks rescuing the children.   I think they'll give those evil, destructive humans a run for their money. 

That was my strong suspicion too.  I wonder if we are being too cynical, or if there's anything in the text to back it.  Not that Edward would have noticed such deviousness (being Moral, Pure, etc).
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: KMITA on March 01, 2008, 03:21:37 AM
I enjoyed this story very much. It was well thought out and with a very simple and good-natured hero that is often overlooked in stories and real life. As for Edwards conformitive personality, I thought it was exactly right. What child would enjoy a toy that did not do what the child wanted it to do?
As for the similarities of Edward bear to Pooh bear, I felt that it was used very well. Think how much more would have been added to the story if he were to come up with a completely new set of childhood characters? The intro to "EP145: Instead of a Loving Heart" really explains this well.
Great intro to the story, Definately something that I waould not want my younger daughter to start the story off hearing. Her older sister (older by only 18 months, would have no trouble with it, she is a sci-fi/horror story fan at 8 years of age. :o ) Every child is different and unique in their own ways.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: gfplux on March 01, 2008, 03:15:20 PM
It brought tears to my eyes. great science fiction
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: CGFxColONeill on March 01, 2008, 04:11:40 PM
When they all died it had lost its entire reason for being, like a Talkie Toaster with no bread, and it went a bit mad

when I saw this I thought you were going to say a talking tooth brush lol
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Bikerjohn on March 03, 2008, 03:24:01 PM
"Honey" question...

As a want-to-be writer, I try to be aware of the alien environments I drop my charactes into (dream worlds, other universes, or just a new planet).  That he found honey hit my warning button.  Was it just a honey-like substance?  Was it some nurishment that his programming make him think was honey?   Is it an alien world where bee-like bugs also came along?  Or have humans already dropped Earth plants/insects/animals ahead of their arrival?  (Or did I miss the honey explaination in an earlier sentence?)

This is a minor example of a certain TV based sci-fi show's insensitivity to this 'suspension of disblief' where, no matter what part of the galaxy they end up in (or parallel dimension) - everyone is speaking english in seconds of meeting one another.  (At least Farscape had 'translator microbes.')  [I could note that Edward didn't have fluid conversations with anything not man-made on the planet...that was nice.]

Great story on the best podcast around!
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on March 04, 2008, 12:48:32 AM
"Honey" question...

As a want-to-be writer, I try to be aware of the alien environments I drop my charactes into (dream worlds, other universes, or just a new planet).  That he found honey hit my warning button.  Was it just a honey-like substance?  Was it some nurishment that his programming make him think was honey?   Is it an alien world where bee-like bugs also came along?  Or have humans already dropped Earth plants/insects/animals ahead of their arrival?  (Or did I miss the honey explaination in an earlier sentence?)

This is a minor example of a certain TV based sci-fi show's insensitivity to this 'suspension of disblief' where, no matter what part of the galaxy they end up in (or parallel dimension) - everyone is speaking english in seconds of meeting one another.  (At least Farscape had 'translator microbes.')  [I could note that Edward didn't have fluid conversations with anything not man-made on the planet...that was nice.]

Great story on the best podcast around!

I took it as a "honey-like substance"; it would fit that Edward would interpret the world around him to fit his Pooh-bear personality, and since he's a machine, eating something strange on a strange planet wouldn't necessarily be dangerous.  (Though if I were a marooned robot-on-a-mission, I wouldn't be so cavalier about what I put in MY body!)
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: CGFxColONeill on March 04, 2008, 01:50:30 AM
Just out of curiosity why would he need to eat ingest anything at all? not for nourishment certainly and I assume he had a solar cell array or something of the kind ( wonder what made me assume that? just kind popped to mind like it belonged as I was typing this... anyhow that is prolly another thread lol)
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: ancawonka on March 04, 2008, 08:26:17 AM
I was moved by this story.  I thought the concept was all right, made wonderful by Steve's emotional reading.  I think the reading was second only to Nightfall in its intensity and characterization.  I really felt something for the little bear, who was just self-aware enough to realize that he was going to be alone forever.

I wish the second half (the actual journey) had been a little shorter.  I found myself trying to figure out what the Parrotishes REALLY were and how they might have been the source of the virus and so forth.  Was the wagon and the honey just a metaphor?  I was a bit disappointed by the end, when they DID turn out to be Ewoks - or something equally cute and insipid.

Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on March 04, 2008, 11:45:52 AM
Just out of curiosity why would he need to eat ingest anything at all? not for nourishment certainly and I assume he had a solar cell array or something of the kind ( wonder what made me assume that? just kind popped to mind like it belonged as I was typing this... anyhow that is prolly another thread lol)


Actually, that was mentioned in the story, briefly.  The bear was programmed to manifest Pooh's personality, and that includes "craving a small smackerel of something" now and again.  I think he was even aware that he didn't need to eat, he just liked to.  (Kind of like a lot of people I know...)


And welcome to ancawonka; I had a similar thought about the Parrotishes. 
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Yossarian's grandson on March 04, 2008, 09:38:19 PM
Wow. That was just about the most chilling opening line I ever heard. It sent a tingle down my back. And you gotta respect a writer who has the brass balls to actually kill off Wi...I mean Edward Bear! And
as a result of combat, too!

Anyway...

The story as a whole didn't do very much for me at first. It seemed like all the cuteness was put in just to accentuate the tragic denouement.

But now that I've given it time to sink in, it has gathered strength. Maybe because, as Steve says, the hero's quest answers a need in all of us. For me anyway, the death-scene (though admittedly played to the bone) has grown to mythic proportions. Dunno, but doesn't everyone in a way yearn for a poetic, meaningful demise like that? Not that I'm in any hurry to go, mind you, but get my drift?
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: CGFxColONeill on March 04, 2008, 11:29:49 PM

Actually, that was mentioned in the story, briefly.  The bear was programmed to manifest Pooh's personality, and that includes "craving a small smackerel of something" now and again.  I think he was even aware that he didn't need to eat, he just liked to.  (Kind of like a lot of people I know...)


And welcome to ancawonka; I had a similar thought about the Parrotishes. 

ok I missed that part lol
how was he powered anyhow?
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: glucoseboy on March 05, 2008, 04:49:57 AM
This story struck an especially emotional chord with me.   The statement "for the children" was corny but effective.

Great job Steve!
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Planish on March 07, 2008, 09:17:07 AM
I had a bit of trouble with Win... Edward's motivation, because I didn't catch the business of the other four ships en route the first time around. I also questioned the honey craving, but figured he was some sort of a cyborg toy with some technology that could recharge him by processing the carbohydrates in honey or honey-like substances, and that he was programmed to crave it.

At any rate, I just sprinkled on some of my private stash of powdered handwavium and suspended disbelief for the duration, because the story and the POV character were engaging enough.

I did enjoy the slow reveal of the nature of his surroundings - first the nursery, which turns out to be in a ship, which turns out to have crashlanded on some planet, and then outside on his "mission ... quest ... thing".

It's a good thing the protagonist wasn't the "Troy Trooper" toy from the EP Flash between EP21 and EP22. They woulda' been totally hosed.  ;)

Quote from: Sylvan
He is, in another Campbell sense, the "larger-than-life hero" despite being just a Silly Old Bear.
I think it's because he was just a Silly Old Bear, and not a Paladin archetype, that makes him a Campbellian "reluctant hero".

Finally - please bear with me (no pun intended)
The name of the ship immediately struck me as somewhat inauspicious from the get-go.

Quote from: W. S. Gilbert
The Yarn of the 'Nancy Bell'
A Bab Ballad

'TWAS on the shores that round our coast
From Deal to Ramsgate span,
That I found alone on a piece of stone
An elderly naval man.

His hair was weedy, his beard was long,
And weedy and long was he,
And I heard this wight on the shore recite,
In a singular minor key:

"Oh, I am a cook and a captain bold,
And the mate of the Nancy brig,
And a bo'sun tight, and a midshipmite,
And the crew of the captain's gig."

And he shook his fists and he tore his hair,
Till I really felt afraid,
For I couldn't help thinking the man had been drinking,
And so I simply said:

"O, elderly man, it's little I know
Of the duties of men of the sea,
But I'll eat my hand if I understand
How you can possibly be

"At once a cook, and a captain bold,
And the mate of the Nancy brig,
And a bo'sun tight, and a midshipmite,
And the crew of the captain's gig."

Then he gave a hitch to his trousers, which
Is a trick all seamen larn,
And having got rid of a thumping quid,
He spun this painful yarn:

"'Twas in the good ship Nancy Bell
That we sailed to the Indian sea,
And there on a reef we come to grief,
Which has often occurred to me.

"And pretty nigh all o' the crew was drowned
(There was seventy-seven o' soul),
And only ten of the Nancy's men
Said 'Here!' to the muster-roll.

"There was me and the cook and the captain bold,
And the mate of the Nancy brig
And the bo'sun tight, and a midshipmite,
And the crew of the captain's gig.

"For a month we'd neither wittles nor drink,
Till a-hungry we did feel,
So we drawed a lot, and accordin' shot
The captain for our meal.

"The next lot fell to the Nancy's mate,
And a delicate dish he made;
Then our appetite with the midshipmite
We seven survivors stayed.

"And then we murdered the bo'sun tight,
And he much resembled pig,
Then we wittled free, did the cook and me,
On the crew of the captain's gig.

"Then only the cook and me was left,
And the delicate question, 'Which
Of us two goes to the kettle?' arose
And we argued it out as sich.

"For I Ioved that cook as a brother, I did,
And the cook he worshipped me;
But we'd both be blowed if we'd either be stowed
In the other chap's hold, you see.

"'I'll be eat if you dines off me,' says Tom,
'Yes, that,' says I, 'you'll be,' --
'I'm boiled if I die, my friend,' quoth I,
And 'Exactly so,' quoth he.

"Says he, 'Dear James, to murder me
Were a foolish thing to do,
For don't you see that you can't cook me,
While I can -- and will -- cook you!'

"So he boils the water, and takes the salt
And the pepper in portions true
(Which he never forgot) and some chopped shalot,
And some sage and parsley too.

"'Come here,' says he, with a proper pride,
Which his smiling features tell,
' 'Twill soothing be if I let you see,
How extremely nice you'll smell.'

"And he stirred it round and round and round,
And he sniffed at the foaming froth;
When I ups with his heels, and smothers his squeals
In the scum of the boiling broth.

"And I eat that cook in a week or less,
And -- as I eating be
The last of his chops, why, I almost drops,
For a wessel in sight I see!

"And I never grin, and I never smile,
And I never larf nor play,
But I sit and croak, and a single joke
I have -- which is to say:

"Oh, I am a cook and a captain bold,
And the mate of the Nancy brig,
And a bo'sun tight, and a midshipmite,
And the crew of the captain's gig!"
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Mr. Bunny on March 08, 2008, 03:33:17 PM
Disclaimer: I've been a huge Milne fan since before I can remember, and have infected my children with that meme.

I really liked the story. I'm kinda late to the game here, so not much else to say along those lines that won't be heavy on "me-too-ism." I do wonder if you need to have read Milne to "get" the story. (That'd be a mark against it, in my book.) Do those who have seen/read Disney's versions get the same effect?

Someone noted this story didn't measure up to the ending of "The House At Pooh Corner." Wow, talk about setting a high bar! While I'd agree that it didn't, there's very damn little I've encountered that does meet that standard. If that's the requirement for using Milne's characters, then nobody ever would...and I'd consider that a loss.

I'm also surprised at what a positive response it got.  Bravery was mentioned several times, but Edward doesn't seem particularly brave or cowardly.  He is too ignorant of the danger to be truly brave.  He is also too ignorant to be making a real sacrifice.   Frodo and Sam at least had some inkling they wouldn't be coming home, and at one point they knew it without a doubt.  Edward doesn't seem to struggle with this.  He doesn't seem to struggle with anything.  He didn't even struggle with leaving the nursery even though he said he would.  Maybe that is Pooh, but it's not dramatic tension.

I think it is Pooh. And I also think a character can be brave without agonizing dramatically about how brave he's being. Going back into the cave seemed quite brave to me.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: JoeFitz on March 10, 2008, 03:06:16 AM
While my reaction wasn't as negative as Anarkey's, I have a serious problem with this story, and I've been struggling with myself for the past few days trying to understand it and express it. Here is an attempt to do so; you'll probably learn quite a lot more about me than you ever cared to if you read it.

Thank you! Your post expresses exactly very eloquently some of my reservations about the story.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Listener on March 10, 2008, 04:20:06 PM
Disclaimer: I've been a huge Milne fan since before I can remember, and have infected my children with that meme.

I really liked the story. I'm kinda late to the game here, so not much else to say along those lines that won't be heavy on "me-too-ism." I do wonder if you need to have read Milne to "get" the story. (That'd be a mark against it, in my book.) Do those who have seen/read Disney's versions get the same effect?


Having never read Milne, only seen the Disney versions, I thought this was a pastiche (w/c?) of Pooh that detracted from the story.  Now I know better.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Sanpaco on March 20, 2008, 04:39:13 PM
Its been too long since I listened to this for me to give specific examples of why I liked the story but I do remember it seeming kind of like an epic adventure similar to say Alice in Wonderland.  I really enjoyed it and I thought that it was one of the better episodes that has been released.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: birdless on March 20, 2008, 06:21:32 PM
Pooh (both Milne and Disney versions) was such an indelible part of my childhood that the violence inflicted upon him in this story was so disturbing to me. ::)

From the realization of what he was going to have to do, I really didn't expect him to "live," but I was sure hoping I was going to be wrong.

I agree with Planish on the slow reveal: very nice touch.

Anyway, I like the concept okay, and i think the execution was very well done... it was just dark. I'm not a huge fan of "dark" story telling.

It seems like it's easier to be dark in a short story, though, because we don't normally have a lot of time to get so emotionally invested in the protagonist that we're depressed when they die, and happy short stories sometimes have a tendency to smack of cheesiness or "high-gloss." I dunno. My 2¢, but not given a lot of thought to that previous statement. It's just that off the top of my head, most short stories I can think of are dark.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: bad_andy on March 21, 2008, 06:30:51 PM
Wow. I wasn't sure what to think at the first but I was in tears (manly, manly tears) by the end of the story. As someone who grew up on the Disney stuff and not the books, I thought the Pooh references worked. The hallucinations of the other characters really gave me a sense of Edward's interior life as he tried to map his personal mythology on the world outside the nursery. It was interesting to see the author confront mortality through the eyes of a toy that was thrown into a strange circumstance that was beyond his programming. That worked so well for me that some of the smaller details didn't end up bothering me that much. Thumbs up.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: AllyPally on March 23, 2008, 12:54:10 PM
I liked the story, but not the vocabulary, or the use of language, which was patchy.

For instance, "azure" is not a word that a Bear of Very Little Brain would know. There were several other words and phrases that knocked me out of the story. I kept mentally rephrasing bits into A A Milne language.

To me, this story goes down as a good try, could be better.

Disclosure: I learned to read at about three years old, by listening to my Dad reading the Pooh books to me, and following his finger along the text. Anything Pooh-derived had better be close to the original. I don't like Disney Pooh for that reason. He's an insipid imitation of the real Edward Bear.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: manicoo on March 23, 2008, 01:44:03 PM
I second the somewhat cynical view of eytanz. The moral of the story for me was - "no good deed goes unpunished". For saving the parrotchens Edward is mortally wounded; for helping Edward fulfil his task the parrotchents will be invaded. A tragedy in the full sense of the word. Not to imply that I didn't enjoy the story. It was well written and powerfully narrated. Just really really sad.

Not aiming for quote of the week, unless Steve will be in a really cynical mood at recording time, but didn't anyone else wonder whether the parrotchens (or however its spelt) realize that by aiding Edward Bear, they have basically enabled the invasion of their planet by an alien race which has stripped its own home planet dry of resources and is now coming to do the same to their planet?
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: wintermute on March 25, 2008, 01:09:12 PM
I think this is my favourite EscapePod story yet.

I was waiting for the eagles to show, but they never came.

I like to think that when the other ships arrived, they rebuilt / rebooted Edward Bear to find out what happened.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Subneutrino on April 01, 2008, 05:16:08 AM
Great story.  Got my kids to listen to this one (daughters, 9 and 11).  They liked it, and we talked about it for over an hour.  Considering what their typical attention spans are, this is remarkable.  An amazing story that will stay with me for a long time.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Ocicat on April 02, 2008, 06:13:02 AM
Anything Pooh-derived had better be close to the original. I don't like Disney Pooh for that reason. He's an insipid imitation of the real Edward Bear.

I agree that the Disney version... well, just misses what made the Milne stories so great.  After last week's outro, I'll be very interested to see what Steve (and son) think of the original stories on first readings.  I hope he'll post here and tell us...
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on April 02, 2008, 09:55:50 PM
Anything Pooh-derived had better be close to the original. I don't like Disney Pooh for that reason. He's an insipid imitation of the real Edward Bear.

I agree that the Disney version... well, just misses what made the Milne stories so great.  After last week's outro, I'll be very interested to see what Steve (and son) think of the original stories on first readings.  I hope he'll post here and tell us...

That reminds me; my aunt gave us a set of the Milne stories on cassette, read by Charles Kuralt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140866787/escapepod-20).  (Moderators: can you work your magic so the EP-gets-a-cut bit is added to that link? [Magic worked -Heradel])

Kuralt reading Owl and Eeyore is simply awesome.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: birdless on April 03, 2008, 02:37:25 PM
(Moderators: can you work your magic so the EP-gets-a-cut bit is added to that link? [Magic worked -Heradel])
Whoa whoa, wait... so if you guys link to Amazon, you get some sort of kickback? Dude! I wished I had known. I've posted quite a few that you could have done that to. Feel free to edit any of my posts if it helps you guys out! What about that whole thread Nash posted to help him fill out his "NetFlix" queue?
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Russell Nash on April 03, 2008, 04:56:09 PM
(Moderators: can you work your magic so the EP-gets-a-cut bit is added to that link? [Magic worked -Heradel])
Whoa whoa, wait... so if you guys link to Amazon, you get some sort of kickback? Dude! I wished I had known. I've posted quite a few that you could have done that to. Feel free to edit any of my posts if it helps you guys out! What about that whole thread Nash posted to help him fill out his "NetFlix" queue?

If you linked to Amazon, I probably did side in and alter the links. 

We had a full disclosure thread, but since it has fallen down the boards a bit, I'll restate it here.

EP has an Amazon account.  This means that if you click on any of the altered links and buy the item, EP gets a cut.  Almost every website that links to Amazon does this.  We're just trying to get Steve his cut. 

As far as my Netflix list goes, we don't add links to your post.  If you want it to become a paying link for EP, you need to put in the Amazon link.  Then one of us will slide in and alter it.  Most of the time we add a note that we did it.  I often forget to do that.  We aren't hiding anything.  I just have a shitty memory.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Heradel on April 03, 2008, 05:03:46 PM
If you linked to Amazon, I probably did side in and alter the links. 

We had a full disclosure thread, but since it has fallen down the boards a bit, I'll restate it here.

EP has an Amazon account.  This means that if you click on any of the altered links and buy the item, EP gets a cut.  Almost every website that links to Amazon does this.  We're just trying to get Steve his cut. 

As far as my Netflix list goes, we don't add links to your post.  If you want it to become a paying link for EP, you need to put in the Amazon link.  Then one of us will slide in and alter it.  Most of the time we add a note that we did it.  I often forget to do that.  We aren't hiding anything.  I just have a shitty memory.

We, We have a shitty memory.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: birdless on April 03, 2008, 09:12:48 PM
Noted. From now on, I'll try to start taking the time to add the appropriate link to Amazon. And for my part, notes noting the new notation are not needed, nanks nanyways.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on April 04, 2008, 02:26:27 AM
If you linked to Amazon, I probably did side in and alter the links. 

We had a full disclosure thread, but since it has fallen down the boards a bit, I'll restate it here.

EP has an Amazon account.  This means that if you click on any of the altered links and buy the item, EP gets a cut.  Almost every website that links to Amazon does this.  We're just trying to get Steve his cut. 

As far as my Netflix list goes, we don't add links to your post.  If you want it to become a paying link for EP, you need to put in the Amazon link.  Then one of us will slide in and alter it.  Most of the time we add a note that we did it.  I often forget to do that.  We aren't hiding anything.  I just have a shitty memory.

We, We have a shitty memory.

Mind like a steel sieve, this one ... that's why I whine to the Mods for help with "complicated" stuff like links...

 :-[
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: stePH on April 04, 2008, 05:15:57 AM
Seems to me that all one has to do for Escape Artists to get a kickback from an Amazon purchase, is to add "/escapepod-20" to the end of the link, am I right?
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: SFEley on April 04, 2008, 06:52:50 AM
Seems to me that all one has to do for Escape Artists to get a kickback from an Amazon purchase, is to add "/escapepod-20" to the end of the link, am I right?

I think so.  To tell the truth, it's mysterious to me too what works and what doesn't.  It's hard to tell, because of course, if they aren't giving us the affiliate credit, we usually won't know about it.  >8->  The support really means a lot, though.


Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Russell Nash on April 04, 2008, 09:11:12 AM
If you linked to Amazon, I probably did side in and alter the links. 

We had a full disclosure thread, but since it has fallen down the boards a bit, I'll restate it here.

EP has an Amazon account.  This means that if you click on any of the altered links and buy the item, EP gets a cut.  Almost every website that links to Amazon does this.  We're just trying to get Steve his cut. 

As far as my Netflix list goes, we don't add links to your post.  If you want it to become a paying link for EP, you need to put in the Amazon link.  Then one of us will slide in and alter it.  Most of the time we add a note that we did it.  I often forget to do that.  We aren't hiding anything.  I just have a shitty memory.

We, We have a shitty memory.

The problem is we alternate who gets the memory.  I get it Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and alternate Sundays.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on April 04, 2008, 12:36:41 PM
Seems to me that all one has to do for Escape Artists to get a kickback from an Amazon purchase, is to add "/escapepod-20" to the end of the link, am I right?

That's what I thought, but I couldn't tell where the link "ended" and all my search/cookie garbage began. 

Not that I tried very hard... there was a Dark Sorcerer Wizard with a small, blue golfball named "Kervin" leading his older brother, a Wheel Warrior (with a wheel named "Kirby") and his little sister, Link (who carries a purple whip named Doris), through the living room, each bellowing their own theme music at full volume.  TGIF, and we leave for school in 10 minutes.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: wintermute on April 04, 2008, 01:19:09 PM
Seems to me that all one has to do for Escape Artists to get a kickback from an Amazon purchase, is to add "/escapepod-20" to the end of the link, am I right?

That's what I thought, but I couldn't tell where the link "ended" and all my search/cookie garbage began.

Amazon links are mostly garbage. All you need is http://www.amazon.com followed by /dp/ followed by whatever the next section is. Everything else you can strip out without harm. Example:
http://www.amazon.com/Nightfall-Bantam-Spectra-Isaac-Asimov/dp/0553290991/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207315010&sr=8-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Nightfall-Bantam-Spectra-Isaac-Asimov/dp/0553290991/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207315010&sr=8-2)
and
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0553290991/ (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0553290991/)
both go to exactly the same place.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Russell Nash on April 04, 2008, 09:32:42 PM
Seems to me that all one has to do for Escape Artists to get a kickback from an Amazon purchase, is to add "/escapepod-20" to the end of the link, am I right?

That's what I thought, but I couldn't tell where the link "ended" and all my search/cookie garbage began.

Amazon links are mostly garbage. All you need is http://www.amazon.com followed by /dp/ followed by whatever the next section is. Everything else you can strip out without harm. Example:
http://www.amazon.com/Nightfall-Bantam-Spectra-Isaac-Asimov/dp/0553290991/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207315010&sr=8-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Nightfall-Bantam-Spectra-Isaac-Asimov/dp/0553290991/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207315010&sr=8-2)
and
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0553290991/ (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0553290991/)
both go to exactly the same place.

There's a little more to it if the code is being used.  We are purposely not giving out the code.  Links used in the forums will be converted by one of the moderators unless the poster doesn't want us to do it. 

For those of you who would like to buy something from amazon and donate to EP at the same time we already have this little thread (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1169.0).
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: eclipse on April 18, 2008, 08:00:23 PM
i loved this story.
thank you.
i also blogged about it on lj to make all my friends listen.
it made me cry.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Roland on April 30, 2008, 07:27:07 PM
Add me another person who absolutely loved this story.
From the beginning and the great way it introduces the situation to the end which brought a tear to my eye, all brought to life by great narration.
Thankyou. 
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: DDog on June 02, 2008, 10:39:19 PM
Unfortunately I listened to this story awhile ago so my comments may not be relevant.

I think I liked it. I am also inclined to agree with the "everyone is on a hero's journey" view voiced at the top of the thread, or fool's journey a la tarot cards. I realized it was Pooh fairly soon, but was a little confused why the references were oblique instead of direct. I really liked the idea of the character, and that he was given ultimate knowledge while plugged into the ship but could only store so much of it in his own "little brain." That and the hallucinated cameos at the end were probably my favorite things.

I'm glad that song made it into the post-episode comments!
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Prince Bacarrati on June 03, 2008, 03:11:23 AM
Great story.  Loved the bear and the idea of such nice machines.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: R.Z.I on June 20, 2008, 12:00:55 AM
Wow, what an interesting story.
I've only listened to it once and liked it well enough.  Though now more than week since I ingested it I'm still thinking about and appreciating more and more the profound emotional effect of this piece .  There is a lot in there is a lot of room for exploration in this gem.  I think I will be listening again and try figure out why this story of a robotic teddy bear in outer space has spoke so strongly to my soul.
~Robert
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: wintermute on June 20, 2008, 01:22:19 AM
...but was a little confused why the references were oblique instead of direct.

Copyright.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: goatkeeper on June 20, 2008, 02:01:13 AM
...but was a little confused why the references were oblique instead of direct.

Copyright.

Hadn't that about that.  Good example of crafty appropriation.  If Fox owned Winnie the Poo they would still have found a way to sue though.  Then it would be Edward Bear and the Very Large Settlement.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Windup on June 20, 2008, 02:26:40 AM
...but was a little confused why the references were oblique instead of direct.

Copyright.

Hadn't that about that.  Good example of crafty appropriation.  If Fox owned Winnie the Poo they would still have found a way to sue though.  Then it would be Edward Bear and the Very Large Settlement.


Actually, I think suing the principals involved would violate that important doctrine enunciated by that great legal mind, Steve Dallas: "Never, never, never, sue poor people..." 

The exception being, of course, "Unless this poor person losing now will help you win with a rich person later..." 
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: birdless on June 20, 2008, 06:10:20 PM
Actually, I think suing the principals involved would violate that important doctrine enunciated by that great legal mind, Steve Dallas: "Never, never, never, sue poor people..." 
All i needed to know i learned from Steve Dallas. Have they started putting warning labels on those cameras, yet?
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Russell Nash on June 23, 2008, 09:50:48 AM
Actually, I think suing the principals involved would violate that important doctrine enunciated by that great legal mind, Steve Dallas: "Never, never, never, sue poor people..." 
All i needed to know i learned from Steve Dallas. Have they started putting warning labels on those cameras, yet?

No just on Sean Penn's forehead.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Jacin Redeaux on June 24, 2008, 04:05:45 AM
I liked this story quite a bit. I let my 6 and 11 year olds listen in the car after I had screened it. I always appreciate (and act on) the warnings! In this case, it really was a spring board for my older son to use in his own writings. I pointed out how this story takes a fairly well known idea and adds a new angle making a whole new story. In business, an idea only has to be 10% new and wham the market grabs it(Starbucks did not invent the selling of coffee), this seems the same kind of thing. My younger son really liked how Edward got to be a true hero, had real fights, and in the end added real significance to his "life".

Good one!
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Unblinking on August 31, 2010, 04:42:18 PM
I liked almost all of this story, but the oblique Pooh references really bugged me.  They should've either been more direct or more subtle.  If they weren't direct for copyright reasons, as suggested, well then maybe you shouldn't write a story so clearly based on a copyrighted character.  The story would've been the same without the Pooh references.  For me it got especially annoying near the end when he started hallucinating about his 100 Acre Wood friends, which served no purpose for me except to just cram a few extra references in the last bit.  It struck me in the same way that much of X-Men 3 struck me--there are a LOT of characters from the comic in X-Men 3, but most of them are only on-screen long enough to be introduced, and if they're lucky they get one speaking line.  So instead of using them as part of the story, like in the first two movies, it was just a "Let's see how many campy references we can cram into 2 hours, it won't be irritating at all, I promise!"  Yeah, this was like that for me.

I liked the quest, I liked the slow reveal.  I liked Edward's thought process.  I was sad that he died, though by that time I was annoyed enough by the oblique Pooh references that I wasn't as sad as I would've been.

I've been fond of Winnie the Pooh since I was a kid.  I watched the Disney version a lot, and also watched the cartoon on Saturday mornings.  I'm not sure I've ever read the books, but I definitely want to.
A bit of trivia for you:  Did you know that the voice of Eeyore in the cartoon show and movies is also the voice of Optimus Prime in Transformers (both the 80s cartoon series and the Michael Bay film).  Peter Cullen, I believe his name is, and his IMDB list has dozens of 80s cartoon cameos for voice acting.  I'd been big fans of both Eeyore and Optimus for nigh on 20 years before I realized that!  :)
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Talia on August 31, 2010, 05:28:27 PM
Heh. I was all about to say I was surprised anyone would have any kind of negative reaction to the stories - this is solidly in my top three favorite EP episodes of all time - but then I went back and read the old comments and this story was really divisive, either people really liked it and were shocked at the negative comments, or exactly the opposite.

Must be a stylistic thing - something about the format either REALLY works to some people's tastes, or REALLY doesn't.

Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Unblinking on August 31, 2010, 05:39:40 PM
Heh. I was all about to say I was surprised anyone would have any kind of negative reaction to the stories - this is solidly in my top three favorite EP episodes of all time - but then I went back and read the old comments and this story was really divisive, either people really liked it and were shocked at the negative comments, or exactly the opposite.

Must be a stylistic thing - something about the format either REALLY works to some people's tastes, or REALLY doesn't.

I was sort of in the middle actually.  I liked the story, but hated the Pooh references.  Those references could easily have been removed and then I would've loved it without reservations.  You can write a story about a bear of very little brains without it actually BEING Pooh, just reminiscient of Pooh.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: eytanz on August 31, 2010, 05:44:38 PM
Must be a stylistic thing - something about the format either REALLY works to some people's tastes, or REALLY doesn't.



Actually, if you look back to the initial reactions, everyone who commented negatively (and I guess I should include myself there, even though I liked the story) was mostly complaining about thematic issues and the use of the Winnie-the-Pooh character, and there are almost no negative comments about anything stylistic. The complaints about the writing style are relatively late in the thread.

As to whether it was a good idea to use the Edward bear character or whether it would have been better off using a novel bear character, I can only say that at this point, two and a half years after I heard the story, I remembered it mostly as "the story that used Winnie-The-Pooh references for no good reason". I didn't remember anything else about it. I was actually surprised, going back to my early post in the thread, that I seemed to like everything else about the story, given that that has been overshadowed entirely in my mind.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Talia on August 31, 2010, 06:06:16 PM
I didnt express myself clearly, but I'm having trouble putting it into words, so never mind.
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Unblinking on August 31, 2010, 08:46:25 PM
I didnt express myself clearly, but I'm having trouble putting it into words, so never mind.

Didn't mean to scare you off, just discussing.   :)
Title: Re: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk
Post by: Fenrix on June 14, 2016, 04:01:12 AM
Not much to say that hasn't already been said. This was a good'un. Enjoyed it very much.