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Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Russell Nash on March 07, 2008, 09:35:52 AM

Title: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Russell Nash on March 07, 2008, 09:35:52 AM
EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café (http://escapepod.org/2008/03/06/ep148-homecoming-at-the-borderlands-cafe/)

By Carole McDonnell (http://www.carolemcdonnell.com/).
Read by Stephen Eley.
First appeared in Jigsaw Nation (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0977304027?ie=UTF8&tag=escapepod-20&creativeASIN=0977304027), ed. Edward J. McFadden III and E. Sedia.

We don’t see a lot of mixed couples around here, and we’re not like some of the other states in the Confederate United Republic. It’s not like they’re gonna get killed or lynched or nothing. But it’s tough just the same. And although it’s weird enough that they’re an interracial couple, it seems to me that they’re arguing about something bigger than merely coming into this café.

I don’t know any Blacks. You got to go to Laramie, or Cheyenne to see them. But I watch Cosby when it’s on. The Confederacy ain’t as bad as the folks in Columbia might think. Sure everyone’s segregated, but it’s all equal and the Platte County school district is pretty good about African-American History Month.


Rated PG. Contains heavy racial and political themes.


Referenced Sites:
Decoder Ring Theatre (http://www.decoderringtheatre.com/)


(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://cdn1.libsyn.com/escapepod/EP148_HomecomingAtTheBorderlandsCafe.mp3)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Sylvan on March 07, 2008, 01:02:17 PM
A provocative story -at least for me- not necessarily because of the scenario but because of the world in which it was set.  I've seen that world, experienced those emotions at any rate, and felt deeply disturbed by the religious/political justifications and judgmental nature of it all.  But how easy would it have been to create the alternate world of "Jesusland" and have it either be all good or all evil?  What made me take notice was that this story had me despising 90% of those sitting in that café.

I won't deny I didn't bristle at the tossed-around invectives like "Conservative" and "Liberal" nor that I wanted the Liberals to be portrayed as the heroes.  I'm definitely in the latter camp, although some of my friends point to my stance regarding guns as being more the former.

What got me most was my knee-jerk inclination to embrace the interracial family and resulting desire to burn down the alternate Wyoming out of sheer hatred over this Christian dogma over Christian spirituality that would allow such horrible beliefs.  I am, after all, one of those "Gay Liberal Pagans" you hear about these days.  And that's where the story proved itself to me.

Did I enjoy it?  Yes, although it is not my favorite from Escape Pod.  Did it make me think?  Given how often I post in these forums (ie:  "nearly never") I'd have to say, "yes", again.

All too often we seem to live the fallacious belief, "those who are not for me, are against me".  Such a sentiment has led to arguments, bad legislation, riots, wars, and secession.  But it's not true.  As much as we would like to live in a world where our most precious and unique qualities are validated by our societies and communities, it just isn't so.  Maybe it could become that way, I don't know.  But I do know that when the small, GLBT Family newspaper I worked for went out of business, I never went looking for another journalism career.  A year of reporting on all the hatred and vitriol not only wore me out but left me still struggling -even today, years later- to tread the seemingly dark, dangerous social waters while not constantly feeling like either a victim or someone in the cross-hairs of a metaphorical sniper's sights.

In short, "Homecoming at the Borderlands Café" hit home, well, by casting the story in one intolerant world while showing another intolerant land, outside.  This isn't to say I don't believe in moral relativism.  I just don't believe in that base canard about all things are equal and must have equally bad elements to them, when examined.  (That's the pit-trap that most journalism has fallen into, these days.)  Rather, the story is about stereotypes and showing how these massive, monolithic structures are not worth investing our time into as much as the more direct, complex, every-day lives of the people living within those structures.

Maybe that's why I didn't love this story rather than just feel the impact of it.  "...Borderlands Café" wasn't offering a solution to these issues, just an observation ... an observation that part of me -an embarrassingly large part- felt uncomfortable with.

Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Listener on March 07, 2008, 01:40:22 PM
I did not like it for several reasons.

1.  It's a semi-accurate description of the future.  There really is a schism like this already; if you don't believe me, look at some unmoderated forums in the Atlanta area.  Everything devolves into racist invective.  It wouldn't surprise me if there's some sort of secession this century.

2.  I've read it before... set in the 50s or 60s... or with a Christian marrying a Jew... or with someone coming home with their gay/lesbian partner... and it's not covering any new ground.

3.  Mike (main character) kept referring to Nona, and the fact that she was a Native American.  It felt too much to me like "it's okay, I have a gay friend, I can say/think/do these things."

4.  The scene where Yvonne turns on the news only serves one purpose, and that's to demonstrate that Charlie doesn't believe in the racist attitude of his community.  But the scene was redundant; Mike told us that Charlie was okay with Nona, and I think by NOT seeing him bristle at the guy commenting on the news report, that the ending would have been more powerful.  (I know that last comma is misplaced... I just can't find a way to fix it off the top of my head...)

5.  Too little is made of the fact that Jody was reading the Bible with Brad when the minister came around.  And though Jody had the attitude of superiority that Mike kept referring to, people of that characterization usually don't just sit there and take it.

6.  Brad is Captain Exposition.  There wasn't enough else going on to make his story compelling enough to me to sympathize with him.

*shrug* I guess I don't have a problem with the Fractured-America story as a subgenre of SF... I just had a lot of problems with THIS story.  YMMV, of course.
Title: The explosion from EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: eytanz on March 07, 2008, 02:00:33 PM
I'm skipping this one. America's racial politics are one of the issues I prefer to keep out of my entertainment (especially since I no longer even live there).

Moderator:  Returned to Episode thread after a brief stay in the spinoff thread (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1411.0).
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: JDHarper on March 07, 2008, 03:07:29 PM
I'm a bit irritated by the setting, where liberals are trying to take away the conservatives' kids. It's a bit of the author's bias bleeding through, and it weakens the story quite a bit.

And the characters are stick figures: "Hi! I'm the moral one who is conflicted about standing up to my racist society!" "Nice to meet you! I'm the moral one's overbearing racist mother!" etc.

I'm trying to find something about the story that I liked, and I can't. There aren't any characters I can sympathize with, as even the guy coming back from NY says something like "You know how the gays are...." The plot is clichéd. The setting is weak; it's as if the author said "Let's turn America sideways, so now the West will be the racist part and the East will be liberal part. Only more so."

Escape Pod stories are usually fun or interesting, and ideally both. This was neither, I'm afraid.

Oh well; there's always next week.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Mr. Tweedy on March 07, 2008, 03:51:07 PM
I agree with everyone else thus far that the story was pretty weak, for the reasons Listener stated.

I was, however, impressed with the author's willingness to criticize both the ultra-left and the ultra-right and show the intolerance and dogmatism inherent in both sides.  I have heard/read many stories that portray religious conservatives as oppressors (to the point where it's cliché), but I have very rarely encountered stories that had the guts to portray atheist liberals as oppressors.  Kudos.

Aside: There are many silly things a person can believe while remaining intelligent and objective in a general sense, but racism is one thing that has always boggled my mind.  The idea of judging and segregating people by race seems so astonishingly stupid to me that I'm amazed people who believe in doing can also have the mental capacity to feed and dress themselves.  IMHO.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Listener on March 07, 2008, 04:26:03 PM
I was, however, impressed with the author's willingness to criticize both the ultra-left and the ultra-right and show the intolerance and dogmatism inherent in both sides.  I have heard/read many stories that portray religious conservatives as oppressors (to the point where it's cliché), but I have very rarely encountered stories that had the guts to portray atheist liberals as oppressors.  Kudos.

(this may end up having to be split off)

I agree with you here, though it was beaten into our heads too much.

Speaking as a person who has worked for a conservative radio station (and noting that this may or may not reflect my personal beliefs), there's a lot going around about Christian persecution, where other religions are being given what is considered preferential treatment by the quashing of "traditional" observances of Christian holidays/culture ("merry christmas/happy holidays" is the most visible in this battle).  The types of Christians who grow into Mrs Garrison and Mrs McMasters are the types who would rail against the Christian-"bashing" they see growing in American society.

Perhaps the reason liberals aren't portrayed as oppressive in the larger world of the media is that the folks who make TV shows are, for the most part, liberals themselves. 

Each side in arguments like this believes they can do no wrong, while the other side can do no right.  But in a story that really needed a lot of work to avoid being little more than a pastiche (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pastiche), it was one thing I appreciated, even though I didn't like the way in which it was done.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: DKT on March 07, 2008, 04:40:04 PM
I really wanted to like this story.  Actually, I think I did like quite a bit of it.  I was born in the South and although we moved to LA when I was very young, we still went back to the South to visit family all the time.  And Mike and Charlie's mother in this story really reminded me a lot of my grandmother -- this Southern hospitality for some.  Yes, we're Christians, and we love everyone, but we don't do that.  It just isn't proper. 

That kind of idea. 

I also find myself agreeing a lot with what Mr. Tweedy wrote:

I was, however, impressed with the author's willingness to criticize both the ultra-left and the ultra-right and show the intolerance and dogmatism inherent in both sides.  I have heard/read many stories that portray religious conservatives as oppressors (to the point where it's cliché), but I have very rarely encountered stories that had the guts to portray atheist liberals as oppressors.  Kudos.

Even though I now consider myself a liberal, I thought the idea of a liberal left persecuting the religious right was kind of fascinating.  I also dug that the religious right were generally pretty racist, because that made for moral ambiguity on both sides.  I could handle all that pretty well.  But that the guy who ratted out Brad and Jody's beliefs just happened to be a gay liberal, well, for some reason, that broke the story for me. 
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: bolddeceiver on March 07, 2008, 05:27:42 PM
I agree that the story was weak and somewhat heavy-handed, though it was still worthy of a listen.

Much more to say on the opening.  I love social science fiction -- frankly, even the best hard science fiction set in the future has to have strong elements of it to hold my interest.  I'm a political scientist who fell in love with SF as a kid, and when the two can connect it makes me really happy (see Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale).  I am pretty interested in the idea of (1) a balkanized USA (given my mild Cascadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_%28independence_movement%29) secessionist leanings, if only in theory) and, I think even more interestingly, (2) the idea of exploring what a world where the USA (or its remnants) aren't the predominant power, something which is at least implied by the balkanization scenario..  I'd love to see more SF exploring the alternate possibilities, because I think the United States are at a crossroads -- will it be the fall of Rome, dark ages and all, or the humble step back from the spotlight of the UK and other former empires?  Both have huge storytelling potential.  I've been trying to think of ways to explore them in my own writing, and would love to see others doing the same.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: sirana on March 07, 2008, 05:55:16 PM
Outch, that was preachy. This story didn't do anything for me. It didn't even evoke enough emotion to piss me off. A really, really weak piece.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: JDHarper on March 07, 2008, 06:58:28 PM
Quote
Outch, that was preachy.

Yes! That's the word I was looking for. The whole story existed to say "Racism is bad, y'all. So's taking people's kids if you disagree with them."
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: ajames on March 08, 2008, 12:50:24 AM
Kudos to Steve for trying something different.  I'd be in to hearing another alternate history story in the future, and/or a story that tackles some difficult cultural/political/moral issues.

I got into this story.  As the story progressed I did keep hoping that the author would show me something about the characters to give me some insight into them and make them more real to me, but with the possible exception of the main character that didn't happen.  And I hoped that in taking on racism and persecution of beliefs in an alternate world the author would show me something I hadn't seen in this one, but that never happened, either. 

This reminded me a bit of an interview I heard during black history month on NPR.  An elderly gentleman recounted how long ago he and a few friends had sat down and asked to be served at a diner counter that served only whites.  He spoke movingly of how he felt, of the stares of others, of the policeman who came, of the elderly white woman who was staring at him with what he thought was hate, who got up out of her chair and said something to the effect of "Good for you, young man".  How those words from her taught him not to judge others.  Now that was a powerful interview. 

This story, I agree with others, was more preachy than powerful, at least in my opinion.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Planish on March 08, 2008, 02:53:23 AM
Ugh.  When did EscapePod get bought by FOX?   This is the most biased piece of crap I've heard outside a visit to my ex-family in rural Oklahoma.

Let's talk about some of the spin phrases, shall we?
[snip]
??? ??? ???
When I listened to it, it was the characters in the story who used those phrases.
I do not for a minute believe that we were expected to completely adopt the viewpoint of any of the characters - not Brad's and not even Mike's.

The author could not possibly expect to show us the way to resolve all issues of Otherness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other), and of being caught between two different worlds, and I don't think she was trying to in such a short work. Using shortcuts such as the "spin phrases" enabled her to get a lot of paint on the canvas in a short time. (Uh, that sounds more critical than I intended it to be.)

That being said, I think this story just barely squeaks in under the wire as "speculative fiction". You could very easily rewrite it in a here-and-now (or "some other country and now") setting and it would be plausible. However the history was altered, it didn't feel that much different to me.

At first I found it a bit odd that Jody's character was not at all developed. The baby got more screen time than her, but I guess that was because the baby is what forced the people to accept that "this was really happening", however they felt about it. Her personality did not matter to them, only that she was of "the other".

I did enjoy the way she was able to stretch out the whole sort of "freeze frame" business when the couple first come in. There is no action, but a lot is going on.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Nobilis on March 08, 2008, 03:14:09 AM
Quote
That being said, I think this story just barely squeaks in under the wire as "speculative fiction".

You're being generous.  You really have to stretch to call this science fiction.  The people in that story exist NOW.  The events exist NOW.  Strip out the news cast, change the names back to what they originally were, and the fig leaf falls off.

My personal suspicion is that this story was originally written without the trappings of some possible future.  It was originally written in the here-and-now, but it wouldn't sell because it was too trite.  When the call for submissions on this anthology came in, the author realized with a little reworking it could be sold as science fiction.

I hope Steve will think long and hard before taking a story like this one again.

It's interesting to note that this story achieves something that so many other modern SF stories fail to achieve.  I speak, of course, of character development.  Nona goes from a girl he used to date to his girlfriend to his fiancee to the woman he's going to marry through the course of the story.  It's subtle, it's not skillful, but it's there--and again makes me wonder seriously whether this story was SF when its first draft was written.  After all, so few of the other stories have character development.  What's wrong with this one that it does?

Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Darwinist on March 08, 2008, 03:18:35 AM
Didn't care for this story.  The characterizations bugged me a bit.  To me it seemed like the story was full of "retro" social ideas.......I can remember my Catholic dad telling me how he took a lot of crap from his family for marrying my Lutheran mother, I remember my grandparents using the N-word regularly in casual conversation and telling us grandkids to wash our vegetables because a certain minority group touched them.  So it seemed like the ideas in the story  weren't really that out of the ordinary in days gone by.   I was waiting for a gay character to show up and stir up the WY pot a bit more and sure enough, around 24/25 minutes in there he was.

Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Grayven on March 08, 2008, 04:13:34 AM
So Steve can get Kiwi's all he wants, but he has to fake the southern accents himself? Thats so weird.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Kurt Faler on March 08, 2008, 08:17:26 AM
This story tries at some sort of pertinent social commentary by conjuring up an America thats set in the future but acts like the past, and is populated by stereotypes that are so 2 dimensional I could use them for bookmarks. FAIL.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: sirana on March 08, 2008, 11:14:17 AM
The people in that story exist NOW.  The events exist NOW.  Strip out the news cast, change the names back to what they originally were, and the fig leaf falls off.
Does this really feel like a story set in the present to you? I read it rather as a story set in the 60s.

It's interesting to note that this story achieves something that so many other modern SF stories fail to achieve.  I speak, of course, of character development.  Nona goes from a girl he used to date to his girlfriend to his fiancee to the woman he's going to marry through the course of the story. 

Now you're beeing to generous. Nora doesn't change a bit. The main characters's opinion of her changes, but that is no character developement.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: CammoBlammo on March 08, 2008, 12:03:20 PM
I didn't mind this. I understand a lot of the criticism of the story, but it reinforces one of the things I find in the best science fiction: the more things change, the more they stay the same. We can change the technology all we like, but human nature stays just like it always does.

Except, of course, in stories where it changes. Oh well.

I liked the fact that every one of the characters was prejudiced in their own way. Even the newlyweds, who were forced to choose the prejudice under which they'd live weren't too happy about the gay liberal preacher. One wonders if part of the decision to move was based on homophobia. At least the people back home were good Christian types, even if they were hate filled and bigoted.

****WARNING: Potential thread hijacking!!!

Steve mentioned in the intro that the USA was the last country to abolish slavery. If only that were so. I'm not sure how many nations have specifically banned it in the last 150 years, but many have become signatories to UN treaties in that time which deal with aspects of slavery.

Sadly, though, many nations still allow slavery in different forms. For example, there are 10 million bonded labourers in India alone. Bonded labourers aren't 'owned' in the traditional sense, but they are contracted to work under terrible conditions --- generally to pay off a loan, with exorbitant interest --- and they are not able to leave if they want. By way of comparison, a slave in America before emancipation might have cost around $30,000 in today's dollars and would (on average) provide an ROI of around 10-20%. In India a labourer might be bonded for life over a debt of $40 which will be paid back many times over in the life of the agreement.

Guess which worker is/was treated better.

There are other forms of slavery as well. Sex trafficking is quite common. Women are lured overseas with the promise of good work, only to find themselves forced into prostitution.

Child slavery is also very common. I hate to say it, but Côte d'Ivoire, one of the world's leading producers of cocoa relies extensively on children stolen from around Africa. The children are easily replaced, meaning they don't last long and certainly aren't paid. That's sad, but after reading that I find chocolate has another reason to be called one of life's guilty pleasures.

I could go on, but there is a thread to get back to. If anyone's interested, there's plenty of information around da intarwebs, but here are a couple of links:

http://www.antislavery.org.au/ (http://www.antislavery.org.au/)

http://www.stopthetraffik.org.au/ (http://www.stopthetraffik.org.au/)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: stePH on March 08, 2008, 01:58:42 PM
liked the fact that every one of the characters was prejudiced in their own way. Even the newlyweds, who were forced to choose the prejudice under which they'd live weren't too happy about the gay liberal preacher. One wonders if part of the decision to move was based on homophobia.

I suspect it was based more on the threat of having their child removed from them -- it's pretty much spelled out in huge, capital, boldfaced, and underlined letters in the narrative.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on March 08, 2008, 06:22:56 PM
Yeah, about halfway through the intro, I figured we were in for it.  I have no doubt that many of our overseas friends had a good eye-roll that the Americans (minus Canada) were going to waste another half hour of their time with a fruitless bit of solipsism; I felt more than a tiny bit cheated (as our aforementioned friends might have done) that there was NOTHING that felt fictional about this, let alone science-fictional.  It was too real, in that I hear people around me mouth this kind of manure (and many other facets that weren't touched on) all the time.

Ironically, I did hear a lot of common myths expressed that tend to piss me off:
*liberals = non-Christian Bible haters
*"gay" = non-Christian Bible hater
*"we Christians are all one family"
*Separate but Equal is fine, just fine
*"you know how those minority women are... they're all alike..."

For all those who reacted by calling this story "biased", you're wrong; this story was trying so hard to show how NOT biased it was (like the narrator) that all it managed to accomplish was lay out a small percentage of the array of biases that exist in our country.  But it didn't pretend to resolve anything, except to show that the narrator has now decided that if Brad can defy convention and marry "one of those minority women", then so can he!  How nice... a new "rebellion" trend.

As Sylvan said:
Quote
Rather, the story is about stereotypes and showing how these massive, monolithic structures are not worth investing our time into as much as the more direct, complex, every-day lives of the people living within those structures.

That's what it comes down to; and in the context of our current elections, we're about to see what happens when the everyday products of this culture full of stereotypes, with all of our complex backgrounds, biases and prejudices, are given a giant symbolic choice between massive, monolithic structures. 

I was glad to hear from Mr. Tweedy again; I felt like I was too snarky in our last exchange, and worried I was unfair to him.  That said, I had to disagree with him slightly:

Quote
Mr. Tweedy:
I was, however, impressed with the author's willingness to criticize both the ultra-left and the ultra-right and show the intolerance and dogmatism inherent in both sides.

I don't think the author criticized anyone successfully.  All of the biases and preconceived notions were laid out, and attitudes from across the spectrum were selected to provoke the widest possible number of people in the audience, regardless of which character was spouting the reader's own views.  They did high-light some of the inconsistencies of each position, but criticism of the so-called "left" and "right" were left in the eye of the reader.


Listener captured something I have trouble expressing in an objective way:

Quote
...there's a lot going around about Christian persecution, where other religions are being given what is considered preferential treatment by the quashing of "traditional" observances of Christian holidays/culture ("merry christmas/happy holidays" is the most visible in this battle).  The types of Christians who grow into Mrs Garrison and Mrs McMasters are the types who would rail against the Christian-"bashing" they see growing in American society.

...Perhaps the reason liberals aren't portrayed as oppressive in the larger world of the media is that the folks who make TV shows are, for the most part, liberals themselves.

Or perhaps it's because liberals (note the small "l"), by definition, don't actually set out to persecute or oppress people.  Every time someone tells an oppressor to stop oppressing someone else in this world, the oppressor turns around and says (in a high-pitched, Monty Python, faux-woman voice) "you claim to be against oppression, and yet you oppress me by taking away a basic piece of my personality and culture (namely, getting off on oppressing other people)".  The Serbs have successfully used this argument for decades, and christian groups throughout history have done the same thing; look at how the Puritans, who came to the New World ostensibly to escape religious persecution, treated everyone around them.  (And compare them to another christian group, the Quakers.)

I've grown very, very weary of the "reverse discrimination" argument - and this is one facet of that.  (And please note that I did NOT say that "the other side" by definition DOES set out to try to oppress people.  I don't think there is an "other side" in this case; just individuals who don't have a spelled-out philosophy of their own and want to define themselves by those they oppose.)

It kind of speaks to what DigitalVG said:
Quote
I'm so sick of hearing this biased whine.  The same people who are so quick to scream, "Think of the children!" when they see anything they disagree with will just as quickly forget children are people at all when it comes to  their God Given right to treat that tiny wide-eyed and beautiful creature as property.   It must be so easy to ignore that if you didn't face abuse for the Glory of God as a child.

I felt that DigitalVG's comment in toto sounded like something I could have said, except for two things: technically, I am not a lesbian.  And I disagreed with this statement:

Quote
This one isn't making people think.  It does nothing, goes nowhere, is not interestingly written, and gives only a single very biased point of view.  If anything, it's written to make you not think but to make you think that you are.

Oh, I'm thinking, and I covered the "biased point of view" bit further back; but that's not the angle I am disagreeing with.  This was written to make you feel, not to think.  It was meant to provoke this kind of discussion, and ruffle feathers.  Some people confuse that with thinking, which explains the success of so very many bathos spewing psuedo-thinkers in the talk radio realm.  Hmm... maybe I'm not disagreeing after all. ;)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Yossarian's grandson on March 08, 2008, 06:45:36 PM
It didn't do much for me. It felt like a parade of cliched types, done to extreme. The racist and xenophobe Christians, the arrogant and anti-religious liberals, the gay preacher with a chip on his shoulder, it was all just a bit over the top. And the nuanced view that I think Brad and Charley were supposed to represent, just felt like a lot of exposition and stock phrases.

As morality plays go, this one was about as subtle as an atomic bomb.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: bad_andy on March 08, 2008, 08:20:00 PM
Hey everybody. Long time listener, first time caller. I finally decided to check out the discussion forum, because I figured the feedback would be intense. I've been listening to Escape Pod for two years and this is the first episode I almost quit halfway through because I was genuinely annoyed by *both* the writing and the message the author wanted to convey. For the record, I was raised as an evangelical Christian in the southern United States. I'm familiar with small towns, segregation, secession, and right wing christianity from a personal perspective.

Ironically, I did hear a lot of common myths expressed that tend to piss me off:
*liberals = non-Christian Bible haters
*"gay" = non-Christian Bible hater
*"we Christians are all one family"
*Separate but Equal is fine, just fine
*"you know how those minority women are... they're all alike..."

Agreed. The author bent over backwards to try to create imaginary unpleasant liberal people to balance out some actual unpleasant extreme right wing attitudes from our past and present. The gay minister who hates the bible is supposed to be some Nazi hate monger who steals children, but it just didn't work for me. For starters, we actually have ministers and politicians campaigning against gay people, but this symbolically powerful "gay minister" who can convict you of thought crime is an utter fabrication. Further, I had a hard time feeling unsympathetic to his feelings given his point of view. What are the odds someone would hate a book that advocates stoning him to death?  ::)

Next episode, please. Maybe something lighthearted, like Orson Scott Card discussing his views on social policy. ;)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: the_wombat on March 08, 2008, 11:00:17 PM
I liked this story very much, and I found the theme and method endearing, and even more than that salient, but I still am afraid I must object to this story in that it isn't science fiction. Alternate histories in and of themselves do not make science fiction, if it hadn't been stipulated that this was an alternate history (or even possibly a future history) this story could have been any of a million vignettes on racism from any period in American history up to and including the current era. If I take the story "roots" or something similar and claim it to be an alternate history, I don't believe that I would then deserve the moniker of "science fiction author". To deserve the title of science fiction author it isn't enough to simply challenge our thinking, but it is in the way that we are challenged, a way that makes us question everything about ourselves and potentiality, to the point that our most basic assumptions don't even apply anymore, like being a certain gender or being a certain species. I have heard several experts on the literature of science fiction typify it as the literature of challenging thoughts, but that's wrong, it's the literature of potentiality, it's about what might be...to the nth degree.
Despite all this I still apreciate the story SFEley, you're a trooper, keep up the good work.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: CammoBlammo on March 09, 2008, 01:30:26 AM
I liked this story very much, and I found the theme and method endearing, and even more than that salient, but I still am afraid I must object to this story in that it isn't science fiction.

I must object. Steve called it science fiction (and even created a whole new subgenre to accommodate it) in the intro. And the definition of science fiction around here is 'whatever Steve calls science fiction.' So by that razor I must disagree.

Of course, by any other standard you might be right!
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Sylvan on March 09, 2008, 03:18:58 AM
There's an interesting point, I'm seeing, in the discussions:  is "Homecoming at the Borderlands Café", Science Fiction, or not?

Certainly, to use the Ellison standard, it was "Speculative Fiction".  As Steve has said several times before:  "Science Fiction is what I'm pointing at when I say it".  Still, this whole debate brings us to the personal contemplation of whether or not this story qualifies.  In my mind, it does, because I come to this tale with the perspective of this being a logical outgrowth of parallel social structures, identical in most cases, to things we see in the real world.  What would have made it more clearly SF, however, would have been if there were exploration -albeit brief- of what elements led to the divergence.

This was handled expertly in Harry Turtledove's "Joe Steele" (Episode #72 - http://escapepod.org/2006/09/21/ep072-joe-steele/ (http://escapepod.org/2006/09/21/ep072-joe-steele/)) but is completely absent in this tale.  So, while it is my personal decision to take this as "Science Fiction" (because it is alternate history), this definition is also tenuous because we are not shown a clear division-point from standard history.  Unless I missed it, we don't even have one hinted at.

Sociology is a science ... a "soft science", sure, but a science nonetheless.  I believe you can do Science Fiction with the soft sciences but the line is blurrier for the individual as to whether or not they can point to it and say "that's Science Fiction".

At least that's what I think.  Does that make any sense?

Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: DarkKnightJRK on March 09, 2008, 07:00:32 AM
This story didn't make me think, or even make me mad. It made me severely depressed that there are bigots and assholes like this who believes in the insipid ideas expressed in this story.

Both sides are essentially bigoted and evil, and both are so unlikely it's not even funny.

The "Liberal" cities apparently steal Christian children from their parents. Right. Sure. And I bet they eat the children while sodomizing each other, too.

The "Conservative" cities are "Seperate but Equal," but don't do anything bad to the other minorities that live there. Sure. I can believe that. That's pretty much how it happened from the 1800s until 1964. Cases like Emment Till and Rosa Parks were just "misunderstandin's."

This was useless, insane ramblings of a bigoted writer. I want my thirty minutes back.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: scifiwritir on March 09, 2008, 01:48:43 PM
Hi all:

I've been checking out your responses to the story. Thanks for all the comments. The story is written in first person and so the narrator's words aren't exactly mine. I tend to think of Alternate history as science fiction, and that the science being played with is the science of "history"  --Steven Barnes' Lion's Blood comes to mind, although my little story is nowhere in that category. But I can understand how many people might feel that alternate history isn't really science fiction. I think it's part of the African-American SF mindset to play around with history.

As for me, I'm a conservative Christians and Jamaican-American. I am also a womanist, and a liberal.  One of my essays appears in Nobody Passes: Rejecting the Rules of  gender and conformity a book written by a gay editor-friend of mine about the inability to fall neatly into any one political or social agenda.  The story won third prize in the Contemporary Western Fiction contest several years ago and is included in Jigsaw Nation, an anthology written during the last election whose premise was based on imagining the extremes, i.e. "What would happen if the blue states and red states seceded?" If the story seems to be anti any group, then I have failed and I am sorry. I really did try my best to show that all the "societal" groups people put themselves into were neither totally wrong nor totally right. I tried to show all the characters --including the black girl, Jody-- as being good but stressed individuals who were trying to compress themselves into a single "group." 

So the story isn't about race at all. Nor is it saying that people who lable themselves as conservatives and/or Christians are more likely to be racist than people who label themselves as liberals or atheists. I have met racists who are Christians and atheists, liberals and conservatives. I suppose I could have used any social issue. It's about the silliness of people labeling themselves.

In the end, a story is what it means to the listener. Conservative Christians have stated the story is anti-Christian. Then in a post later, a liberal will state that the story is too Christian. Some posters have stated that the issue of race turned them off the story, other posters have stated that the racial issue was handled badly and still others have said that the issue of race was important to them because of their own experience with racism, and it was good to see a SF story that dealt with something important to American minorities and to oppressed minorities all over the world. As I said, a story can only be judged by the listeners' own experiences. So far, I have found that Speculative Writers of color like this story because they see their own lives reflected in it. And that, in the long run, is what matters to me. -Carole
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: sirana on March 09, 2008, 02:58:05 PM
Regardless of what I said about the story, I admire the courage of your coming into this forum and laying out your thoughts about your story, even though there was a fair share of critical comments.
So, Carole, welcome to the forums.
Deep down we are almost human ;-)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on March 09, 2008, 02:59:03 PM

 The only true edict made against homosexuality in the bible is the one law in leviticus, but if you want to follow that, you should also give up cotton-wool blends, pork, shellfish, masturbation, and using public transportation.


So THAT'S why we don't have a decent public transit system in this country!  Because it's forbidden by God!   Whew, and I thought it was just because people would rather spend 100K on a new Hummer than pony up another 1% on sales tax.  I'll have to find that scripture for next time the subject comes up.  :)

... I suppose I could have used any social issue. It's about the silliness of people labeling themselves.

In the end, a story is what it means to the listener. Conservative Christians have stated the story is anti-Christian. Then in a post later, a liberal will state that the story is too Christian. ... So far, I have found that Speculative Writers of color like this story because they see their own lives reflected in it. And that, in the long run, is what matters to me. -Carole

Thanks for dropping by to share that, Carole.  You must be very brave and sturdy to wade through the sort of comments sure to be generated by a story based on these themes!

The snippets I quoted here seem to reinforce my interpretation of the story (at least in my mind), and it is a great relief to know that those were your intentions, and not just me projecting what I think onto your words.  Couching these ideas in a fictional context is a daunting challenge; I am constantly amazed when I see how badly my closest friends misinterpret things that I write in my blog, even when I am simply baldly stating my opinions.

But knowing that you were trying to create an unsavory salad of ideas doesn't mean those ideas won't still tick me off... it just means I'll feel more secure about not associating you (the author) with any of them in particular.  :)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: MattArnold on March 09, 2008, 03:49:20 PM
The author bent over backwards to try to create imaginary unpleasant liberal people to balance out actual right wing attitudes from our past and present. The gay minister who hates the bible is supposed to be some Nazi hate monger who steals children, but it just didn't work for me. For starters, we actually have ministers and politicians campaigning against gay people, but this symbolically powerful "gay minister" who can convict you of thought crime is an utter fabrication.
This is why at least part of the story should have shown us Columbia first-hand. The progressives who support thought-crime legislation were off-scene characters. It would be difficult, but not impossible, for some authors to write their point of view convincingly, lacking personal knowledge of them.

I say "not impossible" because I have that knowledge. I volunteered at the Triangle Foundation to support an anti-bullying law called "Matt's Safe Schools Law" in Michigan, until I found out the legislation wouldn't crack down on physical violence in schools, it would crack down on free speech and enact homophobia as a thought-crime. I quit in disgust.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: DarkKnightJRK on March 09, 2008, 08:51:23 PM
Hi all:

I've been checking out your responses to the story. Thanks for all the comments. The story is written in first person and so the narrator's words aren't exactly mine. I tend to think of Alternate history as science fiction, and that the science being played with is the science of "history"  --Steven Barnes' Lion's Blood comes to mind, although my little story is nowhere in that category. But I can understand how many people might feel that alternate history isn't really science fiction. I think it's part of the African-American SF mindset to play around with history.

As for me, I'm a conservative Christians and Jamaican-American. I am also a womanist, and a liberal.  One of my essays appears in Nobody Passes: Rejecting the Rules of  gender and conformity a book written by a gay editor-friend of mine about the inability to fall neatly into any one political or social agenda.  The story won third prize in the Contemporary Western Fiction contest several years ago and is included in Jigsaw Nation, an anthology written during the last election whose premise was based on imagining the extremes, i.e. "What would happen if the blue states and red states seceded?" If the story seems to be anti any group, then I have failed and I am sorry. I really did try my best to show that all the "societal" groups people put themselves into were neither totally wrong nor totally right. I tried to show all the characters --including the black girl, Jody-- as being good but stressed individuals who were trying to compress themselves into a single "group." 

So the story isn't about race at all. Nor is it saying that people who lable themselves as conservatives and/or Christians are more likely to be racist than people who label themselves as liberals or atheists. I have met racists who are Christians and atheists, liberals and conservatives. I suppose I could have used any social issue. It's about the silliness of people labeling themselves.

In the end, a story is what it means to the listener. Conservative Christians have stated the story is anti-Christian. Then in a post later, a liberal will state that the story is too Christian. Some posters have stated that the issue of race turned them off the story, other posters have stated that the racial issue was handled badly and still others have said that the issue of race was important to them because of their own experience with racism, and it was good to see a SF story that dealt with something important to American minorities and to oppressed minorities all over the world. As I said, a story can only be judged by the listeners' own experiences. So far, I have found that Speculative Writers of color like this story because they see their own lives reflected in it. And that, in the long run, is what matters to me. -Carole

You know, after I posted, I thought, "You know, it is possible that she was writing as the character and it isn't exactly her own views." After that, I thought, "I hope not, because if it's found out otherwise, I'll look and feel like a tremendous asshole." So, thank you for making me look and feel like an asshole, Carole. ;)

I think it was mostly my own feelings and experiences (talking with and dealing and, in some cases, being related to) and some of the over-the-top ideas on both sides that made me...tremendously dislike the story.

I've had to deal with a lot of crap with fundamentalists, being agnostic, bi, and questioning everything they said. They often took themselves extremely seriously and would go to extremes to get things their way. So whenever I hear a voice like that, I kinda go into attack mode and assume that they believe everything they say.

Also, while the idea of the states succeeding is plausible (VERY plausible, possibly more so with each passing year), the idea that the "new Confederacy" would be "Seperate but Equal" and not to messed-up things to their "Seperate but Equal" bretheren is extremely unlikely. Like I mentioned in my first post, tell that to Emmett Till and countless other people who was dealt the same punishment. As for Columbia...liberals taking babies from religious parents? That itself essentially makes them the "evil" of the two sides, so the idea of the story not being biased thrown right out of the window.

I mean this with no disrespect, mind you. Like someone mentioned, it was pretty ballsy to post after essentially everyone ripped you a few dozen new arseholes. I'm just letting you know how it failed for me so that you know for possible future reference. Take from it what you want.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Iron Guidon on March 09, 2008, 09:32:57 PM
Wrote this on my BlackBerry yesterday after listening.  Came back and read the posts.  Couldn't believe the hate I saw here.  Vitriolic hatred I do not want to engage.  I'm submitting as written yesterday. 


Steve, Carole,

Just finished listening to "Homecoming at the Borderland Cafe."  Superb commentary on present day politics. Maybe I liked it because it hit so many buttons close to home.

I'm a well educated, post-graduate degreed professional that has attended exclusive schools both here and in the United Kingdom. I also happen to be a committed, Bible-believing Christian from the unpopulated heartland. To muddy the waters yet further, I am married to a lovely woman of a different race and a totally different culture.

Who represents me? All sides of the "political" debate are shrill, strident. And none represent my views. At all.

Keep the stories coming. Thanks for your time.

Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: scifiwritir on March 10, 2008, 12:27:49 AM
I totally agree that I really should have spent some time in Columbia first. What can I say? I slipped up there. I wanted to show that all sides were pretty wrong in trying to think they could fit their families and lives into a perfect agenda. Love, etc, has no rules and won't fit into any category. Trust me, if I were writing the story again, I would probably A) make our fleeing lovers meet up with a gay priest (on the confederacy side) who helped them cross the border. What can I say? Messed up there. Lord knows I don't want to pick on any gay folks. Don't want to pick on anyone...except folks who feel they perfectly fit into any political or social party line.

As a writer, I must also add that we writers often get the greatest feedback for a story AFTER it is published. We work alone in our room and the folks who crit our unpublished stories "know" what we're aiming for so they don't see what strangers see. Thanks again. If this story ever gets lengthened you will see that it's about love...the power of love, the power of acknowledging that no one but no one fits neatly into any man-made system of labelling. It's also about stress.

As for the need for escapism, I understand it being African-American. But heck, if a story comes out a story comes out, and there isn't much to do. Most black spec-fic writers deal with racial issues. Nnedi, Octavia (Kindred, Parable of the talents), David Durham (Acacia), Nalo (Black Girl in the Ring).

Generally, I am not so blatant. I write about oppression, restriction, imperialism and governmental excess but I like to think that, like Emily Dickinson, I tell the truth but I tell it slant. In my story, Lingua Franca, which was published in Nalo Hopkinson's book So Long Been Dreaming: Post-colonialism in science fiction, I created a world of deaf people which was being intruded upon by mouth-speakers. It was about race but not so near as to make anyone who likes escapism too uncomfortable. I DO have my blatant moments, too, as in my novel Wind Follower, which is about religion and imperialism and which is anthropological Christian fantasy. So it's hard. I can only try to be me.

And being one's self in society is a very hard thing. Because if one is one thing society tells you you can't be another thing also because they don't coincide in the same individual. I hope I explained that well. Among my gay friends, for instance, are Gays for Life, Feminists for Life, Evangelical gays,....and the list goes on. My feminist friends are an odd lot also, as are my Christian friends. As are my Jewish friends. But the world tells us we cannot be christian conservative and liberal at the same time. Or that we cannot be black and x and y at the same time.   I suspect that if everyone here were to examine themselves and their friends they would realize they themselves don't follow any strict political party line because no one is a cookie-cutter. That was what Mattilda's book, Nobody Passes: Rejecting the rules of gender and identity was about.

Again, some writers are less perfect than others. I did my best with the little talent God has blessed me with. The story wasn't perfect but it was heartfelt and in the end, the main character -- with a little help from an ally (because allies are always important if one is to truly be one's self) decide to be himself. It's all one can ask for. Thanks again so much for discussing my story. I really appreciate it and God bless you. -Carole

 
Title: The explosion from EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: bad_andy on March 10, 2008, 03:27:00 AM
Carole,

I appreciate the time you took to write to us and discuss the story further. If I'd met more people like you when I was a Christian I might not have become the happy Atheist I am today. :) I'm going to see if I can find that story you wrote about the planet of deaf people the next time I hit the bookstore. It sounds like a pretty intriguing premise. (...or if it hasn't already, a future episode of EP.) ;) You make some really interesting points discussing your goals for the story. I just wish more of them had ended up in the piece.

I'm relieved to hear that you were writing in character. The reason I think that parts of the story struck a nerve with me was the way some of the buzzwords hit home. The discussion of Columbia reminded me of things I heard coming out of the AM radio one of my coworkers used to have going constantly in his office as Glenn Beck, Dr. Laura and Rush kept him company throughout his day. If you were trying to hit that tone by the way the Midwesterners thought and talked, then you definitely nailed it. I did think that putting the god-fearing white Secessionists in middle America was an interesting choice as I live in the Midwest now and I've actually heard certain racial epithets more often in casual conversation here than when I lived in the South.

The problem with Columbia was that it reminded me of some of the misconceptions I repeatedly run into as an out Atheist. I've met a lot of very nice people who don't believe in God and don't really care what you believe as long as you don't try to force them to participate in it. Yet, Atheists are still a fairly reviled minority in this country. The gay minister and the baby snatching liberals sounded like something right out of AM talk radio and I guess I'm just tired of hearing that kind of thing. I'm active on the forums at RichardDawkins.net and I have yet to interact with one person who wants to outlaw religion or take children from religious parents.

(As an aside, I saw a round-table discussion between the four "New Atheists" where the question came up, in effect, "So, do we actually want religion to go away entirely?" None of them, not one, wanted to completely get rid of religion even if they had to power to do so. Daniel Dennett actually advocates not only teaching about religion in schools, he wants to see a comprehensive and mandatory curriculum developed to educate kids about all of the major religions. That way they'll have the context to understand a driving force behind so many world events. Harris' major argument is just that Bronze-Age thinking and 21st century weapons technology are a dangerous combination. I can think of plenty of Christians and Sci Fi authors that feel the same way. Hitchens and Dawkins don't think it's even possible to understand huge chunks of Western Lit without some familiarity with scripture. Safe to say, I don't think we have to worry about the Bible going anywhere any time soon.)

So when Stephen Eley identified you as a Christian author and then the story pulled out the scary version of what the liberals will do when they get their own country, I jumped to the conclusion that you were trying to make a much different point than you were trying to make. I'm glad I was wrong about my assumption. I think I'd be more interested in a longer and more nuanced version of the story. Humanizing the Columbians would do a lot to solve the apparent bias in what we heard. I'm still not sure if I could get past the whole "they're out to take your guns, your God and your kids" fantasy, but I think at least doing that much would broaden the appeal to a wider audience.

Good luck with your future writing.  :)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: birdless on March 10, 2008, 04:26:46 PM
I thought this story might engender a long string of posts. At first, I was a little frustrated at how many pages of post I was going to have to read before I posted, but by the end of it all, I was glad I hadn't posted earlier.

After all that I've read, though, I am struggling with knowing how to respond, but feel compelled to post something. So I'm just gonna try to take the ideas as they come (which is difficult, as they're all tumbling around at once).

I, too, am a Christian. When I heard Steve's intro, I was really glad that he was going to give this author and her views a chance.

When I heard the story, I had to keep reminding myself that these were her characters' voice, and not necessarily her voice. Plenty in the story made me angry. It was especially the gay pastor that was described in a "you know how they are" way that made me cringe the most. Please know that not all Christians are racists, homophobes or "everybody-else-haters." I do understand how this stereotype was developed, though. The only thing I can say about that is there is a lot of ignorance on the part of the people who fostered this stereotype, and that they had/have a very incomplete knowledge/understanding of the Bible and have taken a lot out of context. The same can be said of nonbelievers, though (like those who believe Paul was a "sexist and racist asshole" (Sorry, DVG, I really don't like to point people out, but this makes no sense in context of what Paul wrote, and, because of your eloquence (<- that's not sarcasm) and background, I don't want people who don't know for themselves to take what you say on this matter as fact)).

Oh, I'm also a Mississippian. The views expressed by the people in this story seem antiquated to me, but maybe I'm just naive (and i really, honestly, suspect that there is some validity to this). Generally speaking, people seem to keep wanting to keep us (the South in general, and Mississippi specifically) in the 1950s and 1960s, but the South has progressed in their stupid and intolerant views on race (I know this story was set in Wyoming, but even someone said they felt like the author had just turned the country on it's side to find the "dividing line" (that's a pathetic paraphrase on my part–my apologies to whoever posted that, but I don't want to look for the quote)). Honestly, it feels like I've read in the news about more racial violence and hatred in NY and LA. I'm speaking for the entire South, here, and unfairly so, perhaps, but, doggone it, we're tired of being pointed at as the standard of racial intolerance and bigotry when it seems like there's as much or more in some of the other 37 states. It was indeed fair to point at us for those reasons 50 years ago... even 25-30 years ago, but it feels like a lot has happened in the last quarter century in the way of mind-sets.

Ah.... I probably shouldn't have even posted. Most of what I've done is try to defend my beliefs and my region. So my apologies.

But as for the story, the characters were really confusing to me. I couldn't figure out what they believed or what their motivations were (except for the moms). And I had a hard time visualizing the setting (the cafe, not the two cultures). Mainly, though, it wasn't what I would consider sci-fi. Oookay, yeah, I guess social science is still science, it's just not what I watch/listen to/read SF for. But I'm fine with getting something like this from Escape Pod every once in a while. It's unexpected, but not abhorred.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: CGFxColONeill on March 10, 2008, 05:13:56 PM
Hey everybody. Long time listener, first time caller. I finally decided to check out the discussion forum, because I figured the feedback would be intense. I've been listening to Escape Pod for two years and this is the first episode I almost quit halfway through because I was genuinely annoyed by *both* the writing and the message the author wanted to convey. For the record, I was raised as an evangelical Christian in the southern United States. I'm familiar with small towns, segregation, secession, and right wing christianity from a personal perspective.

I also almost quit but I kept hoping for a payoff at the end of the story.  I definitely did not get what I was hoping for
I will not argue the point about it was or was not SF we have had the conversation on these forums before
I felt that the story was overly preachy and was well described earlier as about as subtle as an atomic bomb
The story while containing interesting subject matter was not something I would want to hear again on EP
if I want to get beaten over the head with the moral point of the story I can just go here http://librivox.org/newcatalog/search.php?title=Aesop&author=&status=all&action=Search

however that is not the kind of thing I want for entertainment

I, too, am a Christian. When I heard Steve's intro, I was really glad that he was going to give this author and her views a chance.

When I heard the story, I had to keep reminding myself that these were her characters' voice, and not necessarily her voice. Plenty in the story made me angry. It was especially the gay pastor that was described in a "you know how they are" way that made me cringe the most. Please know that not all Christians are racists, homophobes or "everybody-else-haters." I do understand how this stereotype was developed, though. The only thing I can say about that is there is a lot of ignorance on the part of the people who fostered this stereotype, and that they had/have a very incomplete knowledge/understanding of the Bible and have taken a lot out of context. The same can be said of nonbelievers, though (like those who believe Paul was a "sexist and racist asshole" (Sorry, DVG, I really don't like to point people out, but this makes no sense in context of what Paul wrote, and, because of your eloquence (<- that's not sarcasm) and background, I don't want people who don't know for themselves to take what you say on this matter as fact)).

Oh, I'm also a Mississippian. The views expressed by the people in this story seem antiquated to me, but maybe I'm just naive (and i really, honestly, suspect that there is some validity to this).


 you said some things in here that I was trying to say but did it better than I could good job
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: melopoiea on March 10, 2008, 06:58:48 PM
I've read another story by Ms. McDonnell, "Lingua Franca", in the collection _So Long Been Dreaming: Postcolonial Science Fiction and Fantasy_, and loved it to bits for its vivid setting and interesting main character, whatever its flaws. But "Homecoming at the Borderlands Cafe" just doesn't have the strength of that other piece for me, and its not just the unappetizing (and unconvincing) "Christian victim" trope either. Full disclosure, I'm liberal (or perhaps a radical....I'm not sure where the line falls) and I'm not a Christian, although I am a person who subscribes to a specific organized religion which I'm working on converting to at the moment. But the thing that broke this story for me, besides the unrealistic setting (the south would never succeed in breaking away nowadays) was the unbelievably wimpy main character, as well as the unbearably slow opening. I know I was supposed to learn something from hearing the point of view of the racist family members of the protagonist, but I really didn't. They just sounded dumb; I couldn't understand them, even when they were presented in a way that encouraged me to try.

I'm ok with losing the futuristic trappings; frankly I'm a person who really loves socially aware sf, and like to read stories written from a diversity of perspectives--straight white boys+shiny toys gets kinda tired after a while. Part of the reason I like Escape Pod is because its more than that.

I think this was a worthwhile attempt by both the author and Mr. Eley, but I didn't like it.

Try again, please? I really mean it. Egads, if we got "Lingua Franca" on here the forums would light up for a MONTH.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Liminal on March 10, 2008, 07:58:57 PM
What’s that old adage: show don’t tell. The best parts of this story were the opening lines, the picture that was evoked of the car, the snow, a couple resisting each other’s desires.

Then it all went downhill and, rather than present complex and interesting characters, the story relies on stereotypes, cliches, and a fatuous divide between liberalism and religion that demonstrates no real understanding of the historical or contemporary intersections between the two.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Biscuit on March 10, 2008, 09:36:15 PM
I also almost quit but I kept hoping for a payoff at the end of the story.  I definitely did not get what I was hoping for

Same feeling here.

I'd hope I'm an intelligent human being, willing to take on any discussion (and it has been interesting in this thread)...but all I could feel mid-way through this story was that my head was ready to asplode.

The Science Fiction of any real or fiction Them Versus Us discussion is that I BEG the interstellar emptiness every day to send me a higher thinking being to take me away from the quagmire that is the human condition. We're WAY to stuck on this bullshit to make any decent steps in our evolution.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Nobilis on March 11, 2008, 12:13:17 AM
This kind of discussion is exactly why I hope we don't get more of this kind of fiction on EP.  Very few people are talking about the story anymore.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Jason on March 11, 2008, 05:51:28 AM
Carol & Steve,

If we're talking this much, you obviously did something right. :p

Personally I kinda enjoyed it; not a favorite, but I liked that we can look at ourselves from a different point of view.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: DarkKnightJRK on March 11, 2008, 06:55:16 AM
I totally agree that I really should have spent some time in Columbia first. What can I say? I slipped up there. I wanted to show that all sides were pretty wrong in trying to think they could fit their families and lives into a perfect agenda. Love, etc, has no rules and won't fit into any category. Trust me, if I were writing the story again, I would probably A) make our fleeing lovers meet up with a gay priest (on the confederacy side) who helped them cross the border. What can I say? Messed up there. Lord knows I don't want to pick on any gay folks. Don't want to pick on anyone...except folks who feel they perfectly fit into any political or social party line.

As a writer, I must also add that we writers often get the greatest feedback for a story AFTER it is published. We work alone in our room and the folks who crit our unpublished stories "know" what we're aiming for so they don't see what strangers see. Thanks again. If this story ever gets lengthened you will see that it's about love...the power of love, the power of acknowledging that no one but no one fits neatly into any man-made system of labelling. It's also about stress.

As for the need for escapism, I understand it being African-American. But heck, if a story comes out a story comes out, and there isn't much to do. Most black spec-fic writers deal with racial issues. Nnedi, Octavia (Kindred, Parable of the talents), David Durham (Acacia), Nalo (Black Girl in the Ring).

Generally, I am not so blatant. I write about oppression, restriction, imperialism and governmental excess but I like to think that, like Emily Dickinson, I tell the truth but I tell it slant. In my story, Lingua Franca, which was published in Nalo Hopkinson's book So Long Been Dreaming: Post-colonialism in science fiction, I created a world of deaf people which was being intruded upon by mouth-speakers. It was about race but not so near as to make anyone who likes escapism too uncomfortable. I DO have my blatant moments, too, as in my novel Wind Follower, which is about religion and imperialism and which is anthropological Christian fantasy. So it's hard. I can only try to be me.

And being one's self in society is a very hard thing. Because if one is one thing society tells you you can't be another thing also because they don't coincide in the same individual. I hope I explained that well. Among my gay friends, for instance, are Gays for Life, Feminists for Life, Evangelical gays,....and the list goes on. My feminist friends are an odd lot also, as are my Christian friends. As are my Jewish friends. But the world tells us we cannot be christian conservative and liberal at the same time. Or that we cannot be black and x and y at the same time.   I suspect that if everyone here were to examine themselves and their friends they would realize they themselves don't follow any strict political party line because no one is a cookie-cutter. That was what Mattilda's book, Nobody Passes: Rejecting the rules of gender and identity was about.

Again, some writers are less perfect than others. I did my best with the little talent God has blessed me with. The story wasn't perfect but it was heartfelt and in the end, the main character -- with a little help from an ally (because allies are always important if one is to truly be one's self) decide to be himself. It's all one can ask for. Thanks again so much for discussing my story. I really appreciate it and God bless you. -Carole

Being a writer myself, I know the feeling of looking back at one of my stories and thinking, "God, I should have done that differently," so I can feel your pain there.

I can definately agree with your perspective on those societal and political squares and people trying to fit in them. I think Chris Rock said it best on the political lines, "Anyone who knows what to say before they even hear the issue is a f**king fool."

All and all, at least you wrote something that inspired civil dialogue, and there definately isn't no problem in that. ;D
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: gelee on March 11, 2008, 12:26:50 PM
I don't think I have much to add.  I'm not surprised at all to see this one generating a ton of discussion.  Lots of sensitive issues in there.
I don't have any problems with this story showing up on EP.  It's certain more "Spec Fic" than "Sci Fic", but I think that underlying question of "What If?" is at the heart of all SF (and maybe fantasy fic, too).
I'll give the writer credit for tackling a touchy subject.  I think this was an honest attempt at showing what things might be like if the extremists in the US, both right and left wing, got there wish: two seperate states, run by their respective ideologies.
Unfortuanately, I just don't think the story was very good.  I think this is a good example of what happens when a writer tries so hard to make a point that the story suffers.  The characters felt shallow and two-dimensional.
I also had to scratch my head a bit at the narrator.  How did this guy find himself moved to propose to a non-white woman, while still framing his ideas in the context "those touchy minority women"?  Seems that the two positions would be mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Swamp on March 11, 2008, 12:55:08 PM
Unfortuanately, I just don't think the story was very good.  I think this is a good example of what happens when a writer tries so hard to make a point that the story suffers. 

I completely agree.  I am convinced, by my own experience as well as reading other stories, that simply trying to make a political or religious point, or trying to be provocative is a bad genesis for any story.  Even if you try to be even handed or express a point you don't personally share.  There are ways to make a point that are less blatant and more effective.  I am interested in reading more by the author, though.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Biscuit on March 11, 2008, 08:15:27 PM
I also had to scratch my head a bit at the narrator.  How did this guy find himself moved to propose to a non-white woman, while still framing his ideas in the context "those touchy minority women"?  Seems that the two positions would be mutually exclusive.

I believe the author was trying to get across the idea that not everything is as clear cut as being liberal or conservative, religious or aethiest, black or white. While the narrator resented his mother for the interference in his inter-racial relationship, he still had an entire life time of indoctrination and family politics to fight against - which is why he never verbally told her to stuff it.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: ElSenorDelFuego on March 12, 2008, 03:18:47 AM
Hi all, I'm new to the forums here but not to Escapepod. love what Steve is doing.

 Its been really interesting to read all the backlog posts to work up to this point, and I'm thinking I will have to jump back and read some of the comments left on other stories I love from Escapepods past. I  guess I should say firstly that I really enjoyed the story. I'm not in any way try to advocate the story being a literary masterpiece of pacing, character progression or narrative style. I will however say that I genuinely liked the story. I agree with a large portion of those who pointed out problems the story had, but none the less the story really resonated with me. the story reached me so much I actually cried, this can be a problem for a six foot, two hundred pound construction worker on his way to work. An incident like that can lead to puffed chest disputes among men ranging from arm punches to the level of territory disputes between warring tribes of baboons. The reason the story got to me so much is simple, I am young, (only 20) am Hispanic (and an immigrant) and have a white girlfriend who, I hope one day will become my wife. I also live in a small town "behind the redwood curtain" in northern California.

despite being in California my town has a good sized chunk of bigoted racist people living here.
I don't think i have to point out a lot of them are also very religious. I know it sounds like I am accusing the religious community of being racist, but i know from experience that this same community has some of the warmest most understanding people in it. While in other communities with no such stereotypical characteristics in our collective conscience i have found some of the worst racist's in my life. I guess I found this story so appealing because i have seen so much of this story in my own life, from the general racism of the mother which to me exemplifies the general racism that can exist in a otherwise polite society, (my mother was once turn down for a loan at a well respected bank for nothing other than being a Mexican immigrant, I can claim this confidently as she had then and still now has perfect credit) to the directed disgust toward interracial couples shown by the crowd in the cafe. (I have always worried that people would treat my girlfriend different or even with hostility because of our relationship, not because of abstract accounts but because i have seen it myself)

The story was for me very much about my life as I try to make my way in the world, and I saw many things in the story that to me were scary because they were plausible, including the baby stealing liberals. Say what you will but i could see this happening and I happen to be a liberal, and I include the scary conservative state in plausible category. A society based on a radical form of any idealism should be feared no matter what the ideals are. To me the best SF is not the far off story about space wars, but the SF that hits uncomfortably close to home. That makes you think more and harder about life than space cadets could in my opinion.

Oh and Steve, keep em coming!
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: CGFxColONeill on March 12, 2008, 04:25:10 AM
The story was for me very much about my life as I try to make my way in the world, and I saw many things in the story that to me were scary because they were plausible, including the baby stealing liberals. Say what you will but i could see this happening and I happen to be a liberal, and I include the scary conservative state in plausible category. A society based on a radical form of any idealism should be feared no matter what the ideals are. To me the best SF is not the far off story about space wars, but the SF that hits uncomfortably close to home. That makes you think more and harder about life than space cadets could in my opinion.
Oh and Steve, keep em coming!

First off welcome to the forum
second I agree about the radical idealism ( best real world example I can think of is the Nazis in WW2) it just does not work
I disagree that SF has to be like this in fact I would not object to this story being called a deviation away from SF as an experiment for EP one which I hope does not get repeated soon b/c it was not entertainment ( not that it was a bad story but definitely not high not the entertainment scale).  That has its place but I listen to EP for entertainment.

looking forward to this Thursday Steve
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: ElSenorDelFuego on March 12, 2008, 04:54:29 AM
Before i say anything, i have to say i LOVE your name/icon

*ahem*

I disagree that SF has to be like this in fact I would not object to this story being called a deviation away from SF as an experiment for EP one which I hope does not get repeated soon b/c it was not entertainment ( not that it was a bad story but definitely not high not the entertainment scale).  That has its place but I listen to EP for entertainment.
point taken, but I am thinking i gave you the wrong impression with this comment:

To me the best SF is not the far off story about space wars, but the SF that hits uncomfortably close to home. That makes you think more and harder about life than space cadets could in my opinion.

I should say that while I enjoy most of all the SF that hits so close to home. I don't think by any means that it has to be like that (In fact is shouldent, or SF would have no flavor),and I agree with you that EP is mostly about entertainment.  however for me personally even when the SF is so painfully close to home, as this piece was for me, it was still entertaining for me. I also believe SF is a genre of speculation, and that leads to reflection. this in turn means if a story hits us close to home, would that not lead to reflection that much faster? or more intensely? for me at least that is true.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Darwinist on March 12, 2008, 01:30:50 PM
(my mother was once turn down for a loan at a well respected bank for nothing other than being a Mexican immigrant, I can claim this confidently as she had then and still now has perfect credit)

I hate to derail the thread temporarily but I've been in banking for 20 years and comments like this rile me.  There are several factors that go in to loan underwriting, not just credit rating/scores.  I find it hard to believe that a "respected" bank would allow a loan officer to make racist decisions, and loan denials are usually reviewed by a manager to make sure a proper decision was made.  A bank's loans and loan denials are gone over by state or federal (depending on the bank's charter) examiners as they are looking for lending issues like this.  Banks are also rated on the Community Investment Act, which grades their community involvement, lending to lower/moderate income individuals, and home/business improvement programs in their lending area.   Sure, your mother may have been the victim of a racist loan officer and if she was that sucks.  I just wanted to point out that there is more behind loan decisions that meet the eye. 

Back to the cafe...........
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: birdless on March 12, 2008, 02:15:28 PM
That has its place but I listen to EP for entertainment.
Oh, good! That's a relief. I'm glad I'm not the only one! After spending a little time as I have here (admittedly, not much at all, yet), I sometimes feel like it would be regarded as banal to simply listen for entertainment's sake. I mean, sure, if we get something out of it that we can take with us, all the better, but my main motivation for listening to EP (and eventually PC) is entertainment. And I agree. I just didn't find this story entertaining. Like I said in an earlier post, it almost seemed divisive rather than unifying, but I think TAD helped turn that around a little.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: ElSenorDelFuego on March 12, 2008, 05:45:24 PM
(my mother was once turn down for a loan at a well respected bank for nothing other than being a Mexican immigrant, I can claim this confidently as she had then and still now has perfect credit)

I hate to derail the thread temporarily but I've been in banking for 20 years and comments like this rile me.

Honestly enough i am so glad that pissed you off. In my original write up of my first post i went into greater detail but i cut it down to that comment because it felt to greatly like a tangent to me, but since you brought it up will will expand on the story. At the time my mother was applying for the loan she had perfect credit like i said, she had a good steady job and was married (now divorced) to my stepfather (who is white Btw) who himself has good credit. she went into the bank and the loan officer treated her suspiciously front the start, even outright badly. after being told she could not have a loan my stepfather went into the bank and asked the teller to speak to the bank manager. telling him what happened he wanted to know from him if they should have qualified for the loan. according to the manager they not only qualified for the amount asked for but more. the manger himself was nothing but polite understanding and truthful to him and told him that there was no reason to deny my mother the loan. As far as i know the loan officer made the call herself that mother could not or would not make the loan payment merely based on her race. I guess i should have mentioned that we got the loan from them in the end, and the bank itself did not deny us the loan but the loan officer did. however I missed that when i reedited my post and i apologize for that. However that the part of my post having riled you so tells me that in an incident similar to this one you would make sure that everything was in order when you receive a complaint. people like you are what makes the system stay fair. thanks for your concern and comment though!

Oh BTW, we haven't seen that loan officer since at the bank, and my step dad banks there regularly, and the manager stills say hi when he is there.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: CGFxColONeill on March 12, 2008, 06:15:35 PM
Before i say anything, i have to say i LOVE your name/icon

*ahem*

point taken, but I am thinking i gave you the wrong impression with this comment:

To me the best SF is not the far off story about space wars, but the SF that hits uncomfortably close to home. That makes you think more and harder about life than space cadets could in my opinion.

I should say that while I enjoy most of all the SF that hits so close to home. I don't think by any means that it has to be like that (In fact is shouldent, or SF would have no flavor),and I agree with you that EP is mostly about entertainment.  however for me personally even when the SF is so painfully close to home, as this piece was for me, it was still entertaining for me. I also believe SF is a genre of speculation, and that leads to reflection. this in turn means if a story hits us close to home, would that not lead to reflection that much faster? or more intensely? for me at least that is true.

cool glad you like it lol

thanks for clarifying the point
That has its place but I listen to EP for entertainment.
Oh, good! That's a relief. I'm glad I'm not the only one! After spending a little time as I have here (admittedly, not much at all, yet), I sometimes feel like it would be regarded as banal to simply listen for entertainment's sake. I mean, sure, if we get something out of it that we can take with us, all the better, but my main motivation for listening to EP (and eventually PC) is entertainment. And I agree. I just didn't find this story entertaining. Like I said in an earlier post, it almost seemed divisive rather than unifying, but I think TAD helped turn that around a little.


I am also glad I was not the only one that has my motivations in entertainment.  I have taken  some things away from some of the episodes but ya that is not something I look for in entertainment
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: DKT on March 12, 2008, 06:18:51 PM
I think the majority of us read/listen for entertainment (primarily).  However, if a story hits both the entertainment factor and is provocative, it's a double bonus.  Whether or not this story did either or both those things still seems to be up for debate :)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Russell Nash on March 12, 2008, 09:07:18 PM
[Moderator attitude]

Man, I'm not around for a little while a the place explodes. 

To the people who came here looking to talk about the story: I'm sorry I'm late splitting this one off.

To those I split off:  Couldn't one of you decide to start your own thread or send me a PM to let me know what was hitting the fan? 

It was a sloppy split, because it came so late.  If the post was mostly a liberal/conservative rant, it got split. Even if it had comments about the story

Anyway if you want to contribute to my headache, go here (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1399.0).  If you want to talk about the story, you're in the right place.  If you want to talk about the banking thing, keep your bank comments seperate from your story comments.  The banking thing is a couple posts away from getting split off too.

[/Moderator attitude]
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Darwinist on March 12, 2008, 09:12:42 PM
If you want to talk about the banking thing, keep your bank comments seperate from your story comments.  The banking thing is a couple posts away from getting split off too.

[/Moderator attitude]

The banking thing was handled via personal message.  Case closed. 
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Thaurismunths on March 12, 2008, 10:25:45 PM
Wow. Great episode Steve!
My thoughts on the story are neither here nor there, but over all I think this was one of the best EPs you've put together if only for the feedback it's generated. Tossing in my own to cents:
It sounds like you're doing something different with the audio, your voice sounds a little distant, and did you change up the computer voice at the beginning? I like the new accent too.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: deflective on March 13, 2008, 02:00:24 AM
the message i took was a relatively heavy handed 'live the change you want to see.' others will take courage from your example, within minutes apparently.

the attempt was respectable but the story took too many shortcuts to really address the issues. a good example is the way it tried to take a neutral stance by pissing everyone off equally. effective, maybe, but if this thread is any indication it also distracts.

i liked the protagonist's voice, seemed plausible for someone conflicted between upbringing and personal opinion but his last actions, were thoughtlessly cruel (if not necessarily out of character). greeting the couple that way then making a controversial announcement; there's no way that his mother doesn't blame them for her sons decision.

as if their life wasn't going to be hard enough now the community has a justification to try to alienate & ostracize.

If the post was mostly a liberal/conservative rant, it got split. Even if it had comments about the story

this is another thread where i would have really appreciated a link to the new thread at the beginning of the original one.
knowing that it's a split thread makes it easier to make sense of cryptic posts and makes sure that i post to the one appropriate for my comment.

is there any way that i can convince you to do this Russell?
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on March 13, 2008, 02:09:26 AM
I think the majority of us read/listen for entertainment (primarily).  However, if a story hits both the entertainment factor and is provocative, it's a double bonus.  Whether or not this story did either or both those things still seems to be up for debate :)

Everything I do is for entertainment... unfortunately for those around me, my idea of entertainment is a little like what they think of as work.  For example, diagramming sentences brings me hours of hilarious fun... but I digress.


Sorry to make your job harder, Russell... I, too, took the bulk of it to personal message, so only Mr. Tweedy would have to suffer my questions.  Now only Mr. Tweedy has to see how TRULY sorry I am.  :)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: The Outlaw Kyle on March 13, 2008, 03:15:27 AM
I really liked this story.  I was at first taken aback that it was even on escape pod, and I think it shows some considerable sand for Mr. Eley to present it.  He must have know it was going to rattle some cages, but did it anyway.  Stylistically, I think it was a good middle of the road "what if?" story.  But what really got me, what really cinched it for me, was that the "Union" (Columbia, what have you) was NOT portrayed as bastion of freedom, tolerance, love and rainbows.  The simple fact that so many people on here are shocked, SHOCKED, that anyone thinks "liberals" aren't the higher beings of love/tolerance shows how powerful this story was.  I'm sure many of you "free thinkers" would cheer if it was another story about how closed minded Christians are, and in the end they get shown up for the monsters they are by a gay robot.  But let someone imply that lefties aren't always on the side of right, and you cry foul.  Good SF is the SF that challenges your world view, no matter what that world view is.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Myst on March 13, 2008, 06:31:19 AM
I am sorry this EP episode left me flat. I just couldn't suspend my disbelief far enough to picture the setting as "real" it was a caricature of  what people in real life are like. Only the worst of people at that. There was no middle ground everyone was evil, spiteful, and bigoted. In real life people come in all shades and flavors. From the angel to the ape we flit and flutter over the course of our life. The author attempted to show this but failed.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Chodon on March 13, 2008, 11:38:42 AM
This story just didn't work for me.  I understand the author's goal to show no system is perfect, and I think it was a good execution of that theme.  However, to really get into a story I need someone for whom I can cheer.  I didn't find anyone like that in this story.  I didn't feel a connection with any of the characters, and really didn't care what happened with any of them.  The only characters I wanted to cheer for (the couple and the baby) hardly said anything, and when they did it was "liberal" bashing.

The story just left me wishing there was one decent person in the author's world.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on March 13, 2008, 12:37:24 PM
I really liked this story.  I was at first taken aback that it was even on escape pod, and I think it shows some considerable sand for Mr. Eley to present it.  He must have know it was going to rattle some cages, but did it anyway.  Stylistically, I think it was a good middle of the road "what if?" story.  But what really got me, what really cinched it for me, was that the "Union" (Columbia, what have you) was NOT portrayed as bastion of freedom, tolerance, love and rainbows.  The simple fact that so many people on here are shocked, SHOCKED, that anyone thinks "liberals" aren't the higher beings of love/tolerance shows how powerful this story was.  I'm sure many of you "free thinkers" would cheer if it was another story about how closed minded Christians are, and in the end they get shown up for the monsters they are by a gay robot.  But let someone imply that lefties aren't always on the side of right, and you cry foul.  Good SF is the SF that challenges your world view, no matter what that world view is.

You'll probably want to take these thoughts over to the other thread (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1399.0).

Moderator:  I think it's enough about the story and peoples' reactions in general to stay here.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: DKT on March 13, 2008, 04:03:20 PM
I really liked this story.  I was at first taken aback that it was even on escape pod, and I think it shows some considerable sand for Mr. Eley to present it.  He must have know it was going to rattle some cages, but did it anyway.  Stylistically, I think it was a good middle of the road "what if?" story.  But what really got me, what really cinched it for me, was that the "Union" (Columbia, what have you) was NOT portrayed as bastion of freedom, tolerance, love and rainbows.  The simple fact that so many people on here are shocked, SHOCKED, that anyone thinks "liberals" aren't the higher beings of love/tolerance shows how powerful this story was.  I'm sure many of you "free thinkers" would cheer if it was another story about how closed minded Christians are, and in the end they get shown up for the monsters they are by a gay robot.  But let someone imply that lefties aren't always on the side of right, and you cry foul.  Good SF is the SF that challenges your world view, no matter what that world view is.

Ah.  So you really enjoy all those stories where "lefties" are portrayed as "free thinkers"?  Because from your statement, that's clearly what would challenge your point of view (which this story, apparently, did not). 

While I agree with you that it was an interesting pick for EP because it wasn't as liberal-friendly (as some of the other more political stories played here are) and because it chose to find faults with both sides, I disagree that people are only crying foul because "the left" was portrayed as worse off than the right.  (Actually, I think that's the most interesting thing about this story, stereotypes aside.)

Also, I don't remember anyone "here" cheering in a story where "Christians are shown up" by gay robots (or straight robots, for that matter). 
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Anarkey on March 13, 2008, 05:45:36 PM
Also, I don't remember anyone "here" cheering in a story where "Christians are shown up" by gay robots (or straight robots, for that matter). 

DKT, please write this story, stat.  The one line summary made me smile, the story's sure to make me laugh.

Thanks!

(Bet you didn't know you took commissions!)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Russell Nash on March 13, 2008, 07:34:16 PM
But what really got me, what really cinched it for me, was that the "Union" (Columbia, what have you) was NOT portrayed as bastion of freedom, tolerance, love and rainbows.  The simple fact that so many people on here are shocked, SHOCKED, that anyone thinks "liberals" aren't the higher beings of love/tolerance shows how powerful this story was.  I'm sure many of you "free thinkers" would cheer if it was another story about how closed minded Christians are, and in the end they get shown up for the monsters they are by a gay robot.  But let someone imply that lefties aren't always on the side of right, and you cry foul. 


This story never showed us anything about Columbia.  We got the view of backwards and close-minded Wyoming and what the close-minded and backward thought of Columbia.  It was as unbiased as Rush Limbaugh.  Of course the people who have never been to the other side say bad things about it.  Of course the guy who couldn't stay has nothing good to say about it.  He is an unreliable narrator in his own subplot.

This was straight out conservative, christian, rural whatever bashing.  I say this as a liberal, city dwelling atheist.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Russell Nash on March 13, 2008, 07:36:18 PM
Sorry to make your job harder, Russell... I, too, took the bulk of it to personal message, so only Mr. Tweedy would have to suffer my questions.  Now only Mr. Tweedy has to see how TRULY sorry I am.  :)

There was no need to take it private.  Just take it to the proper area.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: FNH on March 13, 2008, 08:58:59 PM
This was a great story.  As a Christian it made me a little uncomfortable at first but as the story progressed I started to get a feel for it.

I laughed out loud ( on my bicycle! ) when I realised the story was describing Racist Christians and Facist Liberals, what a combination.

I loved the main characters development.  He seemed uninvolved at first, then beaten down, then angry and was then driven to action as he finally realised where he was going to stand.

A well written and well read story, congrats to all.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: High 5 on March 14, 2008, 10:28:56 PM
So the story isn't about race at all.

I agree, it was not about race, it was about fear.
No matter if your 'race' is white, black, liberal, christian, asian, gay, jewish, conservative, zoroastran, woman or taxcollector, there will always be another group that is afraid or aggressive towards you.
This story for me was about fear of being different, fear being an outcast and how to deal with that.
And also, to me it was all about the fear that perhaps we ourselves are the racists.
As a matter of fact, I think this story got so much heated debate because we know that we are:

Perhaps some of you have seen or heard this one before, perhaps not:
What would you call a black jewish lesbian woman in a wheelchair who is wearing a burka while playing a piano?
To give you time to think, the answer is written below this line in near invisible beige, to view it, click and drag the pointer over the text.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
She is called "a piano player", what else?
Her race, colour of skin, sexual preference, belief or handicap shouldn't matter to you.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Well, this was a first time for me, posting with special effects.  ;D
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on March 15, 2008, 02:11:23 AM
So the story isn't about race at all.

I agree, it was not about race, it was about fear.
No matter if your 'race' is white, black, liberal, christian, asian, gay, jewish, conservative, zoroastran, woman or taxcollector, there will always be another group that is afraid or aggressive towards you.
This story for me was about fear of being different, fear being an outcast and how to deal with that.
And also, to me it was all about the fear that perhaps we ourselves are the racists.
As a matter of fact, I think this story got so much heated debate because we know that we are:

Perhaps some of you have seen or heard this one before, perhaps not:
What would you call a black jewish lesbian woman in a wheelchair who is wearing a burka while playing a piano?
To give you time to think, the answer is written below this line in near invisible beige, to view it, click and drag the pointer over the text.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
She is called "a piano player", what else?
Her race, colour of skin, sexual preference, belief or handicap shouldn't matter to you.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Well, this was a first time for me, posting with special effects.  ;D

Ha, ha!  That's what I said, too, but Russell apparently spun my remarks about fear into the other thread!  (Only you were much more concise.)

As for the joke, I would have called her a "pianist"... which is funnier when you say it out loud, don't hit the final "t" very hard, and wink like Eric Idle when you say it.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: stePH on March 15, 2008, 04:48:21 PM
What would you call a black jewish lesbian woman in a wheelchair who is wearing a burka while playing a piano?

I don't know ... what's her name?
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: bad_andy on March 15, 2008, 07:01:03 PM
What would you call a black jewish lesbian woman in a wheelchair who is wearing a burka while playing a piano?

I don't know ... what's her name?

Ha! That's the best answer to any question I've heard in weeks.  :D
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: stePH on March 15, 2008, 10:28:56 PM
What would you call a black jewish lesbian woman in a wheelchair who is wearing a burka while playing a piano?

I don't know ... what's her name?

Ha! That's the best answer to any question I've heard in weeks.  :D

I only just realized that my reply could be read as "what's-her-name", when I actually meant it as a question (and by implication, that I would call her by her name if I knew it).
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: tpi on March 17, 2008, 01:56:41 PM
I was, however, impressed with the author's willingness to criticize both the ultra-left and the ultra-right and show the intolerance and dogmatism inherent in both sides. 

I am not impressed.
There is NO willingness to criticize both sides. "Ultra-left" is crude straw-man (there are no liberals who take babies out of bible-readers [well, in some cases that might even be better alternative to be brought up in a racist family]), but "ultra-right" is something with attitudes which are anything but rare.

 
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Chodon on March 17, 2008, 03:05:35 PM
I was, however, impressed with the author's willingness to criticize both the ultra-left and the ultra-right and show the intolerance and dogmatism inherent in both sides. 
I am not impressed.
There is NO willingness to criticize both sides. "Ultra-left" is crude straw-man (there are no liberals who take babies out of bible-readers [well, in some cases that might even be better alternative to be brought up in a racist family]), but "ultra-right" is something with attitudes which are anything but rare.
Okay, I'm really confused by this comment.  First you say no ultra-left person would take babies, then you say they should.  So if had a government based on your belief you would be the exact government protrayed in the story?  I'm not trying to antagonize here, just clarify.  Racism is useless and ignorant and horrible, but hiding it behind laws doesn't make it go away.  In fact it makes it harder to eliminate.

How can you say the author doesn't criticize both sides?  She paints the "right wingers" as racists and hicks.  She paints the "left wingers" as statists and baby-theives.  Both sides are pressing their beliefs on their society: the "righties" by social norms and the "lefties" by government mandate.  People are still arguing about the author's intent when she clearly described it.  The question needs to be if it was clearly conveyed, which I believe it was.  Both sides were demonized.  That's the reason the story didn't work for me.  I couldn't cheer for anyone.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Russell Nash on March 17, 2008, 03:53:40 PM
I was, however, impressed with the author's willingness to criticize both the ultra-left and the ultra-right and show the intolerance and dogmatism inherent in both sides. 
I am not impressed.
There is NO willingness to criticize both sides. "Ultra-left" is crude straw-man (there are no liberals who take babies out of bible-readers [well, in some cases that might even be better alternative to be brought up in a racist family]), but "ultra-right" is something with attitudes which are anything but rare.
Okay, I'm really confused by this comment.  First you say no ultra-left person would take babies, then you say they should.  So if had a government based on your belief you would be the exact government protrayed in the story?  I'm not trying to antagonize here, just clarify.  Racism is useless and ignorant and horrible, but hiding it behind laws doesn't make it go away.  In fact it makes it harder to eliminate.

How can you say the author doesn't criticize both sides?  She paints the "right wingers" as racists and hicks.  She paints the "left wingers" as statists and baby-theives.  Both sides are pressing their beliefs on their society: the "righties" by social norms and the "lefties" by government mandate.  People are still arguing about the author's intent when she clearly described it.  The question needs to be if it was clearly conveyed, which I believe it was.  Both sides were demonized.  That's the reason the story didn't work for me.  I couldn't cheer for anyone.

I'm still questioning the author's intent.  She stated that she tried to portray both sides.(I think, don't make me go back and reread it), but she didn't tell us about the "Liberals" at all.  We only have what the "Conservatives" say about them.  That doesn't tell us squat about how they really are. 

It's kind of like me writing a story about a drug using hypocrite talk radio host, who says all drug users should be thrown in jail for life.  If he spends his time shouting conserva-crap and screaming about the Libreral-nazis, I'm I portraying both sides of the story?  Or am I showing one side and showing you his opinion of the other side?  Unless someone can point me to something I forgot, that's my view of this story
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Thaurismunths on March 17, 2008, 04:19:25 PM
I'm still questioning the author's intent.  She stated that she tried to portray both sides.(I think, don't make me go back and reread it), but she didn't tell us about the "Liberals" at all.  We only have what the "Conservatives" say about them.  That doesn't tell us squat about how they really are. 

It's kind of like me writing a story about a drug using hypocrite talk radio host, who says all drug users should be thrown in jail for life.  If he spends his time shouting conserva-crap and screaming about the Libreral-nazis, I'm I portraying both sides of the story?  Or am I showing one side and showing you his opinion of the other side?  Unless someone can point me to something I forgot, that's my view of this story
Hey, come on now. Lets not Rush (http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/10/27/031027ta_talk_hertzberg) in to anything here.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Russell Nash on March 17, 2008, 04:21:58 PM
It's kind of like me writing a story about a drug using hypocrite talk radio host, who says all drug users should be thrown in jail for life.  If he spends his time shouting conserva-crap and screaming about the Libreral-nazis, I'm I portraying both sides of the story?  Or am I showing one side and showing you his opinion of the other side?  Unless someone can point me to something I forgot, that's my view of this story
Hey, come on now. Lets not Rush (http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/10/27/031027ta_talk_hertzberg) in to anything here.

Are you implying something?
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Thaurismunths on March 17, 2008, 04:25:29 PM
It's kind of like me writing a story about a drug using hypocrite talk radio host, who says all drug users should be thrown in jail for life.  If he spends his time shouting conserva-crap and screaming about the Libreral-nazis, I'm I portraying both sides of the story?  Or am I showing one side and showing you his opinion of the other side?  Unless someone can point me to something I forgot, that's my view of this story
Hey, come on now. Lets not Rush (http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/10/27/031027ta_talk_hertzberg) in to anything here.

Are you implying something?
Not at all. :)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Chodon on March 17, 2008, 04:26:39 PM
I was, however, impressed with the author's willingness to criticize both the ultra-left and the ultra-right and show the intolerance and dogmatism inherent in both sides. 
I am not impressed.
There is NO willingness to criticize both sides. "Ultra-left" is crude straw-man (there are no liberals who take babies out of bible-readers [well, in some cases that might even be better alternative to be brought up in a racist family]), but "ultra-right" is something with attitudes which are anything but rare.
Okay, I'm really confused by this comment.  First you say no ultra-left person would take babies, then you say they should.  So if had a government based on your belief you would be the exact government protrayed in the story?  I'm not trying to antagonize here, just clarify.  Racism is useless and ignorant and horrible, but hiding it behind laws doesn't make it go away.  In fact it makes it harder to eliminate.

How can you say the author doesn't criticize both sides?  She paints the "right wingers" as racists and hicks.  She paints the "left wingers" as statists and baby-theives.  Both sides are pressing their beliefs on their society: the "righties" by social norms and the "lefties" by government mandate.  People are still arguing about the author's intent when she clearly described it.  The question needs to be if it was clearly conveyed, which I believe it was.  Both sides were demonized.  That's the reason the story didn't work for me.  I couldn't cheer for anyone.

I'm still questioning the author's intent.  She stated that she tried to portray both sides.(I think, don't make me go back and reread it), but she didn't tell us about the "Liberals" at all.  We only have what the "Conservatives" say about them.  That doesn't tell us squat about how they really are. 

It's kind of like me writing a story about a drug using hypocrite talk radio host, who says all drug users should be thrown in jail for life.  If he spends his time shouting conserva-crap and screaming about the Libreral-nazis, I'm I portraying both sides of the story?  Or am I showing one side and showing you his opinion of the other side?  Unless someone can point me to something I forgot, that's my view of this story
I see your point and it is an interesting one.  However, I wouldn't call the couple at the center of the story part of the "conservatives".  They seem to be the closest thing to moderates, and are wrapped up in the whole mess between the two cultures.  I think they are about as neutral as anyone in this story can get.  I would find these claims much more suspect if they were coming from the narrator's mother.  I guess this is a perfect definition of YMMV.  I took the story at its word, which the author said was her intent. 

I think something a little more interesting than the story is that left-leaning individuals who listened to it had a totally different interpretation than the right-leaning or the neutral.  I think the story says more about the people who listen to it than it does about anything else.

As far as the verbal scat spewing drug addict in question, he has just as much of a right to yell about how ignorant he is as you or I.  Since I'm for legalization of all drugs I can't honestly say I think what he did should be against the law.  It doesn't mean he isn't a raving idiot though (especially because he is).
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Chodon on March 17, 2008, 04:30:35 PM
As far as the verbal scat spewing drug addict in question, he has just as much of a right to yell about how ignorant he is as you or I.  Since I'm for legalization of all drugs I can't honestly say I think what he did should be against the law.  It doesn't mean he isn't a raving idiot though (especially because he is).
Clarification: I don't think there should be laws against drug use.  I, personally, have moral issues against drug use so I choose not to use them (aside from delicious homebrewed alcoholic beverages).  I just don't think it's right to impose my morals on anyone else.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Russell Nash on March 17, 2008, 04:35:30 PM
I was, however, impressed with the author's willingness to criticize both the ultra-left and the ultra-right and show the intolerance and dogmatism inherent in both sides. 
I am not impressed.
There is NO willingness to criticize both sides. "Ultra-left" is crude straw-man (there are no liberals who take babies out of bible-readers [well, in some cases that might even be better alternative to be brought up in a racist family]), but "ultra-right" is something with attitudes which are anything but rare.
Okay, I'm really confused by this comment.  First you say no ultra-left person would take babies, then you say they should.  So if had a government based on your belief you would be the exact government protrayed in the story?  I'm not trying to antagonize here, just clarify.  Racism is useless and ignorant and horrible, but hiding it behind laws doesn't make it go away.  In fact it makes it harder to eliminate.

How can you say the author doesn't criticize both sides?  She paints the "right wingers" as racists and hicks.  She paints the "left wingers" as statists and baby-theives.  Both sides are pressing their beliefs on their society: the "righties" by social norms and the "lefties" by government mandate.  People are still arguing about the author's intent when she clearly described it.  The question needs to be if it was clearly conveyed, which I believe it was.  Both sides were demonized.  That's the reason the story didn't work for me.  I couldn't cheer for anyone.

I'm still questioning the author's intent.  She stated that she tried to portray both sides.(I think, don't make me go back and reread it), but she didn't tell us about the "Liberals" at all.  We only have what the "Conservatives" say about them.  That doesn't tell us squat about how they really are. 

It's kind of like me writing a story about a drug using hypocrite talk radio host, who says all drug users should be thrown in jail for life.  If he spends his time shouting conserva-crap and screaming about the Libreral-nazis, I'm I portraying both sides of the story?  Or am I showing one side and showing you his opinion of the other side?  Unless someone can point me to something I forgot, that's my view of this story
I see your point and it is an interesting one.  However, I wouldn't call the couple at the center of the story part of the "conservatives".  They seem to be the closest thing to moderates, and are wrapped up in the whole mess between the two cultures.  I think they are about as neutral as anyone in this story can get.  I would find these claims much more suspect if they were coming from the narrator's mother.  I guess this is a perfect definition of YMMV.  I took the story at its word, which the author said was her intent. 

I think something a little more interesting than the story is that left-leaning individuals who listened to it had a totally different interpretation than the right-leaning or the neutral.  I think the story says more about the people who listen to it than it does about anything else.

As far as the verbal scat spewing drug addict in question, he has just as much of a right to yell about how ignorant he is as you or I.  Since I'm for legalization of all drugs I can't honestly say I think what he did should be against the law.  It doesn't mean he isn't a raving idiot though (especially because he is).

Like you said, the closest the story gets to describing Columbia is second hand.  We have no idea how accurate it is.

I never said the hypocrite didn't have a right to rant.  I said a story about him ranting wouldn't portray both sides of the story.  The drug example was to illustrate the hypocracy.  If your a druggie, don't say other druggies should go to jail unless you're ready to go.  The same goes for hookers, cheap or expensive.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Chodon on March 17, 2008, 04:39:42 PM
Like you said, the closest the story gets to describing Columbia is second hand.  We have no idea how accurate it is.
Agreed.
I never said the hypocrite didn't have a right to rant.  I said a story about him ranting wouldn't portray both sides of the story.  The drug example was to illustrate the hypocracy.  If your a druggie, don't say other druggies should go to jail unless you're ready to go.  The same goes for hookers, cheap or expensive.
Agreed.

How bizarre is that?  I agreed with Russell twice in one post!
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Russell Nash on March 17, 2008, 04:41:45 PM
Like you said, the closest the story gets to describing Columbia is second hand.  We have no idea how accurate it is.
Agreed.
I never said the hypocrite didn't have a right to rant.  I said a story about him ranting wouldn't portray both sides of the story.  The drug example was to illustrate the hypocracy.  If your a druggie, don't say other druggies should go to jail unless you're ready to go.  The same goes for hookers, cheap or expensive.
Agreed.
How bizarre is that?  I agreed with Russell twice in one post!

We agreed all the time before you turned out to be a gun toting maniac. ;D
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Chodon on March 17, 2008, 05:05:35 PM
Like you said, the closest the story gets to describing Columbia is second hand.  We have no idea how accurate it is.
Agreed.
I never said the hypocrite didn't have a right to rant.  I said a story about him ranting wouldn't portray both sides of the story.  The drug example was to illustrate the hypocracy.  If your a druggie, don't say other druggies should go to jail unless you're ready to go.  The same goes for hookers, cheap or expensive.
Agreed.
How bizarre is that?  I agreed with Russell twice in one post!

We agreed all the time before you turned out to be a gun toting maniac. ;D
Like my avatar didn't give that away!  I'll remind you of that comment when either:
a) the King of England tries to take back the colonies and I have to fight the Redcoats off (not like you'll care though, being in the land of the Huns)
b) the zombie apocalypse comes and you're begging "please, Chodon!  Shoot the zombies trying to eat my brains!"

In both situations I won't hold it against you though... ;)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: CGFxColONeill on March 17, 2008, 05:07:11 PM
That's the reason the story didn't work for me.  I couldn't cheer for anyone.
I said the exact same thing to myself at work last night
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Russell Nash on March 17, 2008, 05:58:25 PM
Like you said, the closest the story gets to describing Columbia is second hand.  We have no idea how accurate it is.
Agreed.
I never said the hypocrite didn't have a right to rant.  I said a story about him ranting wouldn't portray both sides of the story.  The drug example was to illustrate the hypocracy.  If your a druggie, don't say other druggies should go to jail unless you're ready to go.  The same goes for hookers, cheap or expensive.
Agreed.
How bizarre is that?  I agreed with Russell twice in one post!

We agreed all the time before you turned out to be a gun toting maniac. ;D
Like my avatar didn't give that away!  I'll remind you of that comment when either:
a) the King of England tries to take back the colonies and I have to fight the Redcoats off (not like you'll care though, being in the land of the Huns)
b) the zombie apocalypse comes and you're begging "please, Chodon!  Shoot the zombies trying to eat my brains!"

In both situations I won't hold it against you though... ;)

The King will have to take back his own Parliament first.  The Huns are well south of me and they have discovered money.  You get more through trade than you do through war.  That's all the EU is really.  A big no war/free trade zone.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Listener on March 17, 2008, 07:24:13 PM
Like you said, the closest the story gets to describing Columbia is second hand.  We have no idea how accurate it is.

Someone call Gregory Maguire.  As I read the last quarter of "Wicked", and watched Elphaba's descent from what she was into what we know from the original Oz book and film, I really felt as though Maguire's portrayal was more accurate.

I wonder if the author has any plans for flash or other short fiction about Columbia, maybe an origin story for Brad and Jody.

I think a truly great author can write from the other side and make it seem completely believable and biased in the opposite direction (for example, if I, as a conservative, were to write a liberal character, I would have to consult my liberal friends to make sure I characterized her properly).  I -- and apparently most of the rest of the folks on here -- want to learn more about Columbia, probably from the POV of a Columbian.  Mike, after all, was a Confederate, and he told the story from the Confederate side.  One wonders if the Columbian would have similar opinions and attitudes.

One thing I will say is that, after reading all the debate in this forum (and trying to remember all the points I made back on page one), Ms McDonald's story seems very believable to me in that I'm sure many of the more-extreme individuals out there (ie: the ones who are incapable of rationally discussing the topic, and I am not talking about ANYONE on the forums, but instead the more foaming-at-the-mouth types we all know and vilify regardless of our personal opinions) would take one look at this story and say "wow, this seems like a good idea, and something we can aspire to."  Not the activities Mike talked about in the story, but the fact that the US could be split into two (or more) viable nations.

Stories like these remind me of a great quote I read back in the 90s:

"The metaphor of [America as] the melting pot is unfortunate and misleading.  A more accurate analogy would be a salad bowl, for, though the salad is an entity, the lettuce can still be distinguished from the chicory, the tomatoes from the cabbage." -Carl Degler, "Out of Our Past"
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on March 18, 2008, 10:29:34 AM

"The metaphor of [America as] the melting pot is unfortunate and misleading.  A more accurate analogy would be a salad bowl, for, though the salad is an entity, the lettuce can still be distinguished from the chicory, the tomatoes from the cabbage." -Carl Degler, "Out of Our Past"

That's an interesting analogy I never met 'afore... you could take it to many fascinating places, I think.  For example, growing up I only knew iceberg; as I got older, and really got to know some romaine and a few tomatoes, I began to appreciate what they added to the mix.  I keep hearing how horrible cabbage is, how it's bitter, and won't ever belong... but I think those folks are taking one or two bad leaves and judging the whole head.   (Yeah, I'm stopping.  Sorry.)

But if it makes anyone feel any better, I think the likelihood of the U.S. breaking up into smaller pieces is small... mainly because we are already broken up into 50 smaller pieces that have learned that they can't really live without each other.  There might be a couple of places that could survive on their own... California, maybe... but it would create far more problems than it would solve.  And I think most people either know that already... or are too busy watching Idol to mount a separatist movement.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: The_Witt on March 18, 2008, 11:47:54 AM
My first Thought was...EH not too much there.
However, it reminded me of the time i spent in Alabama with the Marine Reserves way back in...HMM I think the late 80'sThis was at a one of those yearly Deals where you spend 2 weeks on active duty at some place far away from your home base. Any Way, being from Ohio we really ddn't see much blant Racism or the like (we still had it though). The first thing our Commander told us as we left for our first Weekend of leave, was if you had Afircan american friands, they should not be your friends this weekend in the town bars that were close to the base. Well, being Marines ( the Term Jarhead stems from others things like being thickheaded) we did not listen to our commander, we could take care of ourselves. WEll, you guessed it, we got a first had look at what racism can really be like. Now, I am not saying that the treatment we got was in any way a characterization of the Great state of Alabama. But, this story brought back those memories, and how we, as a country have grown throught the years, AND what could have happened had things took a different turn back there in the Civil War.
T
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: CGFxColONeill on March 18, 2008, 03:07:37 PM
AND what could have happened had things took a different turn back there in the Civil War.
T
have you ever read guns of the south?
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: stePH on March 20, 2008, 12:59:47 PM
I never said the hypocrite didn't have a right to rant.  I said a story about him ranting wouldn't portray both sides of the story.  The drug example was to illustrate the hypocracy. 

I always enjoy this particular spelling error.  I know it hasn't anything to do with the story under discussion, but what form of government would a "hypocracy" be?  ;)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: stePH on March 20, 2008, 01:02:18 PM
AND what could have happened had things took a different turn back there in the Civil War.
T
have you ever read guns of the south?

I've read How Few Remain by the same author.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: CGFxColONeill on March 20, 2008, 06:11:25 PM
I ended up reading most of the cross time series he wrote
and enjoyed most of them
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Russell Nash on March 20, 2008, 06:53:14 PM
I never said the hypocrite didn't have a right to rant.  I said a story about him ranting wouldn't portray both sides of the story.  The drug example was to illustrate the hypocracy. 

I always enjoy this particular spelling error.  I know it hasn't anything to do with the story under discussion, but what form of government would a "hypocracy" be?  ;)

It wasn't a spelling error.  I can spell quite well.  I just can't type worth a shit.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on March 22, 2008, 07:00:54 PM
I never said the hypocrite didn't have a right to rant.  I said a story about him ranting wouldn't portray both sides of the story.  The drug example was to illustrate the hypocracy. 

I always enjoy this particular spelling error.  I know it hasn't anything to do with the story under discussion, but what form of government would a "hypocracy" be?  ;)

It would be ruled by the Doctor with the biggest needle.  ;)
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Windup on March 24, 2008, 04:47:24 AM

I always enjoy this particular spelling error.  I know it hasn't anything to do with the story under discussion, but what form of government would a "hypocracy" be?  ;)

It would be ruled by the Doctor with the biggest needle.  ;)


No, I think it would cleary be ruled by the most proficient hypnotist. ("Relax, this won't hurt a bit...")
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Chodon on March 24, 2008, 11:32:52 AM
I never said the hypocrite didn't have a right to rant.  I said a story about him ranting wouldn't portray both sides of the story.  The drug example was to illustrate the hypocracy. 

I always enjoy this particular spelling error.  I know it hasn't anything to do with the story under discussion, but what form of government would a "hypocracy" be?  ;)
Actually, it sounds like a pretty good form of government.  "Hypo" means beneath or under or less than, so it would be a government below something or less than something.  Less government is good!  I want to vote for the Hypocratic party in 2008!
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on March 25, 2008, 01:53:38 AM
I never said the hypocrite didn't have a right to rant.  I said a story about him ranting wouldn't portray both sides of the story.  The drug example was to illustrate the hypocracy. 

I always enjoy this particular spelling error.  I know it hasn't anything to do with the story under discussion, but what form of government would a "hypocracy" be?  ;)
Actually, it sounds like a pretty good form of government.  "Hypo" means beneath or under or less than, so it would be a government below something or less than something.  Less government is good!  I want to vote for the Hypocratic party in 2008!

Silly fool!  Don't you know that third parties can't win because no one will vote for them, because they can't win...because no one...  urgh... I'm getting that Perot dizziness again... Help!
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Russell Nash on May 02, 2008, 09:00:51 AM
The discussion on political devisiveness and terminology got its own set of legs and ran here (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1578.0).
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on May 02, 2008, 12:44:32 PM
And so, I hereby declare this to be the NEW 100th reply to this topic!

What do I win?
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: stePH on May 02, 2008, 12:54:28 PM
And so, I hereby declare this to be the NEW 100th reply to this topic!

What do I win?

Tell him what he wins, Bob!

"Well stePH, our lovely parting gifts include a full week's supply of D'artagnan's Onion Rings, Ronco's Bondage-In-A-Bottle, it won't chip, it won't slip, it won't crack, it won't peel, it won't fade, and of course a brand new, absolutely brand new, new, new, and of course, but also, a new car!"
 ;D
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: wintermute on May 02, 2008, 01:59:24 PM
Is the car second-hand?
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on May 03, 2008, 03:07:48 AM
Hmmmm..... Dumas' Funions... NOM NOM NOM
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: DDog on June 02, 2008, 11:49:18 PM
I don't really know what to say about this story. I definitely can't get through all the pages of discussion, scintillating as I'm sure it was, so I would be bound to repeat myself.

I don't think it's necessarily fair to criticize the story as just being full of 2D stereotypes--or rather, that in being so it is following in the footsteps of many a great science fiction story. It is difficult to juggle all the aspects of Story in a brief format, especially if the main point of writing the story is not necessarily Story but...Point. This story had a Point To Make, Damn It. In most of those cases, character development, plot, setting all bow to the conveyance of said Point. I listened to the first chapter or two of Cory Doctorow's Little Brother (http://www.amazon.com/Little-Brother-Cory-Doctorow/dp/0765319853), courtesy of Mur Lafferty (http://murverse.com/), and the point is clear: Watching people is dumb; the System is dumb; the tools "necessary" to retain the System are not worth their price, etc. But of course, that is one of Cory Doctorow's Points, both in fiction and out of it. Whether or not Doctorow's story ends up more than just a vehicle for moral injunction, I do not yet know, but I don't think this story succeeded in that way at all.

This story makes its Point, yes: whatever "side" you're on, you don't get everything right, and what do "sides" mean anyway? But I care nothing for the characters and therefore the story doesn't work for me. Plenty beloved science fiction stories rely on tropes, or have a single driving question or thought experiment, which is okay as long as I can form an emotional connection to the characters (or the thought experiment is really interesting), but it just didn't happen here. There's Story and then there's "story."

Sorry, but a meh.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Prince Bacarrati on June 03, 2008, 03:10:46 AM
I am still not sure this is really science fiction.  And, overall, it was a rather dull and boring story. 
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Boggled Coriander on June 03, 2008, 10:52:56 AM
I think if Harry Turtledove's "Joe Steel" (EP 72) is SF, then so is this story.  Alternate history may not always fit comfortably into mainstream SF, but there's a lot of room under the big tent.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Russell Nash on June 03, 2008, 04:04:30 PM
I am still not sure this is really science fiction.  And, overall, it was a rather dull and boring story. 

Arguements about whether or not something is SF are worthless.  We use to have story threads where 85% of the posts would be about that and it does nothing.  If you want to go to Gallimaufry and start a SF or not thread, go right ahead. 

Warning: it will be about the tenth thread like that and won't get very much action.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: rokin on January 17, 2010, 02:05:13 AM
If i ever met the mother from this story, I'm not sure i could refrain from punching her in the face. So if nothing else the store made me consider anger management training.

Btw, I love it when a story kicks my emotions i the groin.
Title: Re: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café
Post by: Unblinking on March 18, 2010, 05:41:36 PM
I didn't like this one at all.  Way too preachy.  I didn't see it as anti-conservative or anti-liberal:  both sides were painted as having plenty of bad traits.  I'm neither or both depending on the exact topic at hand.  Too often, people approach political parties like they approach sports teams--team loyalty trumps clear thinking, and party members are encouraged to follow party lines and villainize the other team.  But... that's a whole nother barrel of monkeys.

Rather than anti-conservative or anti-liberal, the message that I saw throughout the whole thing: "discrimination, for skin color or religion or any other reason, is bad".  Which is a worthwhile message, but not it's been done better in other stories.  If it'd had a great story attached to it, then I could cheer for it, but the story only existed to support the preach.

Also, I was confused for a little while about "Columbia".  Since it was audio, I assumed they were talking about "Colombia" the actual real-world country.  I suppose this would've been clearer in the original text form, but a country name that was audibly not an existing country would've helped clear that up.

It probably didn't help that I literally listened to this back-to-back with the newest Pseudopod episode "Charlie Harmer Looks Back", which began in a diner in the 50s, talking about an interracial couple during segregation, and that story also didn't do anything for me.

I really would've liked having someone that I could root for.  While the protagonist was supposedly less racist than his mother, I just never really believed that.  He had a Native American girlfriend, supposedly, yet the only thing he ever says about her is that she is Native American, her name is Nona, and she is his girlfriend.  How heartfelt.  Their relationship felt very hollow, and maybe even non-existent.  Maybe she doesn't consider herself his girlfriend at all, which would explain the lack of any sort of further information about her.  Though he disagreed with his mother, I got the impression that he was not disagreeing with his mother because he felt that she was wrong, but because she was his mother.  He uses Nona as his proof of his non-Racism, but by using her only to proclaim his belief and not treating her like a thinking human being he is no better than his mother.  So I had trouble really rooting for the guy.