Escape Artists

Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Russell Nash on March 28, 2008, 08:39:37 PM

Title: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Russell Nash on March 28, 2008, 08:39:37 PM
EP151: Behind the Rules (http://escapepod.org/2008/03/28/ep151-behind-the-rules/)

By Stephanie Burgis (http://www.stephanieburgis.com/).
Read by MA in PA (of Better Late Than Never (http://betterl8thannevr.net/)).
 First appeared in Forgotten Worlds (http://www.forgotten-worlds.co.uk/), July 2006.
 Closing music: “I Feel Fantastic” by Jonathan Coulton (http://www.jonathancoulton.com/).

The first Jacqui wrote me out a list of instructions thirty pages long. It contained all her history with Robert, in detail. It gave me a list of all the things to say and do when he’s hurt, or angry, or depressed. I think she was the perfect wife. When I think about how hard it is to measure up to her, my stomach feels twitchy.

I’d been doing this job for three months. It was supposed to get easier with time, not harder.


Rated G. Contains relationship drama.


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Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://media.rawvoice.com/escapepod/media.libsyn.com/media/escapepod/EP151_BehindTheRules.mp3)
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: birdless on March 28, 2008, 10:07:18 PM
Is it just me or is this saturated with symbolism? I'm gonna have to give it another listen... I kept distracting myself with trying to figure out if this character symbolized X, and if it did, what that meant in relation to this character/item, especially if they symbolized Y. Yeah, i know... that's why I'm gonna have to give it another listen... and hopefully be able to sort my thoughts and have an ability to express them clearly later.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: CammoBlammo on March 29, 2008, 09:31:00 AM
I don't know that it was saturated by symbolism, but I did come away feeling that I'd missed something. It was an okay story, but I can understand how birdless feels. It seems as if there is something else to the story, and I was waiting for it to jump out, but it never came.

I don't think I enjoyed the ending. Cloning issues aside, I have seen too many women (and men too) stick around to fix a self absorbed schmuck because they don't want to upset him. These people just keep sucking you dry. I've seen the sequel plenty of times, and it rarely ends happily. Jacqui, leave the putz. He ain't going to read the rule book.

Even Jacqueline (the original) wasn't quite able to give the guy what she needed. Instead, she spent a million dollars to make it easier on him. In the end, she just passed the problem on to someone else who looked like her.

Normally I like stories more after coming to the forum. I was going to keep this one, but I do have to make room for Podcastle.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: ajames on March 29, 2008, 12:07:14 PM
Overall, I liked this story. It kept me interested and it gave me a few things to think about.

I am probably overly-sensitive to the common stereotype of the artist as the sensitive, dramatic, self-absorbed diva. My father is an artist and I have known many of his colleagues, and that really isn't representative of my experience. But in its way this story may have been challenging that stereotype, but I'm not sure.

Anyway, the things to think about. We are told the original Jacqueline and Robert were very much in love and happy. So what happened and why? When did Jacqueline place her own happiness secondary to Roberts? When did she change from a wife to a handler? What changed in the original Jacqueline that gives us any hope that this pattern won't eventually be repeated with her new husband? (Sure they are happy now, but who's to say she won't start sacrificing her own happiness for his and start the pattern all over?).

This part of the story is left open. Instead, the transformation I would like to have seen in the original Jacqueline is shown in her clone. Sometimes you do need to leave a bad situation before healing can start. Perhaps Robert was an abusive bastard, in which case putting a clone in your place so he can continue his abusive behavior is abhorrent. However, if Robert were truly abusive, its likely he wouldn't settle for a clone, anyway. So assuming he's not abusive, but the artist stereotype self-absorbed diva, leaving without addressing the issues with Robert seems to me a cop-out. Give up, go on to something new, make the same mistakes, give up again... No. Tell Robert you're not happy, work at it. If Robert can't change, well then, move on. But doesn't someone you love(d) and were once happy with deserve that chance? And, really, how happy was Robert?

So for me the most interesting part of the story was to see the clone with so little life-experience actually take the steps that, in my opinion, the "original" should have. In just a few months, this clone has grown into a more complete person than her original. Anyway, that's my interpretation, others are certainly possible.

Now, when the original Jacqueline needs a heart transplant, will she have the right to take her clone's heart? That's a whole other area of answered questions on the fringes of this story.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Darwinist on March 29, 2008, 01:49:26 PM
I liked the story.   It would've been interesting to learn why a person would pay $1 million to leave another.  I guess if you are filthy rich $1 million isn't that big of a deal.   Interesting how Jacki handled it at the end.  I wonder if the jerk is going to change or blow it with this incarnation of his former wife, too. 


Now, when the original Jacqueline needs a heart transplant, will she have the right to take her clone's heart? That's a whole other area of answered questions on the fringes of this story.

Sounds like the movie "The Island". 
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: stePH on March 29, 2008, 07:00:34 PM

Now, when the original Jacqueline needs a heart transplant, will she have the right to take her clone's heart? That's a whole other area of answered questions on the fringes of this story.

Sounds like the movie "The Island". 

The movie with Michael Caine and David Warner, about 20th-century pirates?  ;D

Seriously, I found this one even more disturbing than the last ("This, My Body").  The notion of engineering a person to serve a specific function like this smacks of slavery, reducing said person to little more than a possession.

Of course, somebody else once pointed out that this aspect permeates the entirety of C.J. Cherryh's Cyteen, my favorite novel.  :-\
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Rain on March 29, 2008, 07:07:01 PM
My one word review : Boring. There was hardly any story to this, i dont get why anyone really bothered to write it. I dont mean to make it sound terrible, there just wasnt anything in it that will stop me from forgetting all about it in a week
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: deflective on March 29, 2008, 09:45:42 PM
woman's week on escapepod & pseudopod, not just the authors but also in theme. good stories too.

I don't think I enjoyed the ending. Cloning issues aside, I have seen too many women (and men too) stick around to fix a self absorbed schmuck because they don't want to upset him. These people just keep sucking you dry.

Even Jacqueline (the original) wasn't quite able to give the guy what she needed. Instead, she spent a million dollars to make it easier on him.

there are definitely high maintenance people that will always be takers in their relationships. in a best case scenario they have to constantly fight with their inner nature just to act acceptably. exhausting to be around.

on the other hand, Jacqueline married him and that's a promise that's more than money. she didn't spend the million to make it easier on him but herself.

she was the one who changed after marriage, she matured and realized that she could no longer play the role she had taken. she gave herself permission to be selfish and that's great, we need it for balance, but she took it too far by leaving without warning or explanation. she took it way too far when she thrust another woman into her place to deal with the fallout.

leaving may have been the right thing to do but she did it the wrong way.

It would've been interesting to learn why a person would pay $1 million to leave another.  I guess if you are filthy rich $1 million isn't that big of a deal.

i assumed that when cloning becomes viable a million won't be worth as much. still a lot but not what we think of now.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: the_wombat on March 29, 2008, 10:32:02 PM
I liked this story, I feel it actually had depth and interplay of the emotions of the characters, the confused and frustrated clone broke out of her shell and the emotional artist did as well, and for a moment they actually saw each other for who they really were...and that's where true love can begin. I think this was primarily an emotion story, and so the climax was the characters coming to some understanding, which can seem like a let-down in a genre that usually is more action focused, but I like that I'm seeing more and more of these kinds of stories in the genre.
Good Job SFEley
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: asqwasqw on March 30, 2008, 08:43:46 PM
after listening, i felt the story was more of a thought experiment, just to take a look at circumstances, and see how they would play out.
thats how i listened to it, and i was payed attention to see how the parts would come together in the mind of the author, and it kept me attentive. then i took a look at how it came together and i think i liked it. though the drugs part seemed a little off to me, i dont know what about them, but they just were an odd placement at the begining, and were symbolism at the end, but it felt weird how they were placed, like thier meaning was changed in the process of writing

just my take
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Subneutrino on March 30, 2008, 09:44:31 PM
Took a few minutes for me to get engaged in the story.  Sounded like some chick flicks I've seen before. Kept me thinking though.  Makes me wonder how much other people in our loves adapt themselves to us out of a sense of kindness, frequently to their own detriment.  Should we be condemned for unwittingly warping the souls of others?  Should we go through our days on eggshells, fearing that someone might hurt themselves to make us happy?  Perhaps its enough that we work hard for the happiness of others while preserving our own identity at the same time.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: shwankie on March 30, 2008, 10:25:08 PM
Ugh. Really, I mean that. Just ugh.

The problems with this story are so myriad I am not even sure I can start, because I am not sure I have the patience to type that much. I'd like to explain, but I think I'll just try to sum up for the sake of brevity.

In no particular order:

-Boring, as rain said. The writing was lackluster and colorless. Much was told, not shown, and the text had no flavor.

-Illogical to the point I couldn't get into the emotional. She had 2 months of "intensive" training, but they gave her a manual that she was supposed to keep secret while living in the same house as the person she's supposed to keep it secret from, and this is standard practice?  They've got the tech to create clones and accelerate aging, but not to burn a password coded, interactive CD if such knowledge couldn't be imparted during the training? Why would she need the manual after intensive training--it was only 31 pages long, and what we were given of it certainly didn't sound that complicated.

She spoke and acted largely like a 10-year-old, which was summarily explained by her not having any life experience or maturity. This seems like a rather large hurtle that a cloning company would address in some way, doesn't it? I mean, these clones go out to whoever commissions them, presumably including people who have children; but, they don't bother doing a bit of research or instilling them with any life experience to aid in social or parental interaction? It just sounds implausible.

The drugs. Why did the Artist have the drugs, and not the clone? She can be trusted to follow a rule book that makes her the perfect wife, to cook, clean, make coffee, critique his artwork, and she's clearly dependent on the drugs; so, why would he have to keep them? Is it a control thing? Is he punishing her? Are clones notoriously inept at opening pill packs? We don't know, and it irked me the entire time. 

There's a bunch more in this vein, but I'll move on.

-I had zero sympathy for any of the characters. The Artist, who was so unmemorable that I've forgotten his name less than two hours after listening to this, and the Clone have no chemistry. Jackie1's instructions lead you to believe that Artist is jealous and possessive, but really the Artist doesn't seem to have any attachment to the Clone through most of the story. There's no intimacy implied, and therefore I can't care about the relationship between them.  The plot "twist" where Jackie1 wasn't dead was pretty much obvious from the word "go," and I have problems having sympathy for cowardly people who foist their problems onto someone else instead of being honest and dealing with them directly. The clone was just too one-dimensional for me to relate to at all.

-The ending was just bad. Predictable, trite...everything a bad ending could be, it was. It also relates back to my point above about being illogical. This clone has, as stated in the story, no life experience; but, she suddenly blossoms into a mature woman who wants to work on helping a full-grown, life-experienced man make the necessary changes for them to stay together? That just seemed a huge jump for the all-of-10-minutes this story encompassed. Yes, I realize people do have epiphanies; but, they do need the emotional and metal tools/groundwork to experience epiphany. Given her previous statements and actions, I just didn't buy the clone having enough maturity or experience to get there in such a leap.

My personal take on this story is that it's an allegory for a relationship in today's world: Girl spend life trying to make Boy happy, while not worrying about her own happiness (Jackie1). Girl wakes up one day and realizes Boy is a self-absorbed idiot and needs to change or she'll leave (epiphany). It's like she's found herself (clone). Boy says he'll change (Artist). Walk off into sunset. The beginning, IMHO, sounded to me like something added to make the story SF, an excuse to start the story with someone being a doormat. She didn't need a clone, that part is extraneous.

JMHO, of course.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Chodon on March 30, 2008, 11:21:25 PM
More clones, less cliche.

Okay, I'll go in a little more depth this time:
Shwankie pretty much hit on all the main flaws in logic I could come up with except one: if they wanted to make the whole thing transparent why not make the clones chemically dependent on the drugs?  That's what I thought was going on with the headaches and hallucinations.  Just have them keel over if they don't get their pills.  They're already essentially disposable if you can put a price on them.  I'm thinking along the lines of Ketracel White (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ketracel-white)

Also, as Russell and I have discussed previously, $1,000,000 is going to be worth the current day equivalent of about $10 by the time they come up with cloning as described in this story.

I think the idea has some merit, it just seemed poorly executed for me, and very full of lame dialog and cliche characters.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: deflective on March 30, 2008, 11:51:27 PM
though the drugs part seemed a little off to me, i don't know what about them, but they just were an odd placement at the beginning, and were symbolism at the end, but it felt weird how they were placed, like their meaning was changed in the process of writing
The beginning, IMHO, sounded to me like something added to make the story SF, an excuse to start the story with someone being a doormat. She didn't need a clone, that part is extraneous.

the cloning did seem extraneous to the actual story. it was a simple rehash of a standard sf device; artificial construct accepted as a real person. that was one interpretation of throwing away the drugs. i prefer another; both people in a relationship giving up their attempts to control the other. she ditched the manual as a way to handle him, he threw away the drugs and accepted that she wasn't Jacqueline.

mostly i'm posting to suggest people check out the first episode of this american life (http://www.veoh.com/videos/v390606bCEDaPxj?confirmed=1). the first act, right after the intro, shows the sf/human interaction of the issue better than anything else i've seen.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Thaurismunths on March 31, 2008, 12:06:47 AM
the cloning did seem extraneous to the actual story. it was a simple rehash of a standard sf device; artificial construct accepted as a real person. that was one interpretation of throwing away the drugs. i prefer another; both people in a relationship giving up their attempts to control the other. she ditched the manual as a way to handle him, he threw away the drugs and accepted that she wasn't Jacqueline.
That's a really interesting view, but I'm not clear on what you meant.
As I understood it, she left the book out in a rush to attend to his needs: putting his needs (coffee) above hers (keeping it secret). In the end she took the drugs (control) from him, threw them away (creating equality/neutrality), then said they were going to write a new list of rules (control based on guilt?).
Or do you mean that she gave up using the 'rules' as a way to keep him placated, and he relinquished control over the drugs by not resisting when she threw the drugs away?

Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: deflective on March 31, 2008, 01:25:12 AM
Or do you mean that she gave up using the 'rules' as a way to keep him placated, and he relinquished control over the drugs by not resisting when she threw the drugs away?

this is what i had in mind, it may not be the author's original intention but i tend to read what i want into a story.

(if you'll indulge me... the original matrix was much more interesting if you thought of the 'real' world as just another layer of artificial reality and 'the one' as a three part entity: Neo, Morpheus & Trinity - Trinity being the hint. then, the prophesy that 'the one you love will be the one' is more of a cause/effect. her love for him in the outer matrix helped him to manifest his powers, with Morpheus facilitating their growth.

anyway, the movie was more enjoyable once it had a plot i could accept.)

i hadn't considered the possibility that she could have subconsciously left out the book to force the confrontation. interesting, but seems unlikely. i didn't get the passive-aggressive vibe from her.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: bolddeceiver on March 31, 2008, 02:41:13 AM
I'm surprised at how mixed the reaction was; I really liked the story.

I do wonder how cloning is extraneous to the story.  How would this story be told without it?  I felt like it wasn't just a story about a woman who is forced to subsume her personality and needs to a man, but also the story of the original Jacqueline putting off on the clone the responsibility for the situation she found herself in, rather than going through the difficulty of ending the relationship.  I suppose you could also say that space warfare was extraneous to Ender's Game, because Card could have made it an entirely different story about a rabbit farmer in rural Kentucky...
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: asqwasqw on March 31, 2008, 02:58:46 AM
ouch, but if there was no space warfare in enders game, then why would he go into space =P
i dunno about how the cloning here worked though, because the first jackie could have done all of this
had a diary that said all these things, and the drugs would dissapear.
well, the point is that enders game had space warfare as a driving force, and here
well here cloning could be removed, and the story would change, but the end could still be similar, but cloning does make the story more intresting, by alot
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: deflective on March 31, 2008, 04:11:55 AM
I do wonder how cloning is extraneous to the story.  How would this story be told without it? ...I suppose you could also say that space warfare was extraneous to Ender's Game, because Card could have made it an entirely different story about a rabbit farmer in rural Kentucky...

the setting is changeable in most character driven stories, this could easily be a fantasy setting similar to feudal japan. here lower class girls are bought from their parents and kept isolated, trained to do little more than devote themselves wholly to a man. it is a noble woman's responsibility to create and maintain a house book that details daily operations and her husband's preferences. this way if she should die the household could continue to operate.

ender's game is plot driven, select below for spoilers (can't imagine it's necessary, just in case).
it's essential that an army's leader can give orders without the troops knowing who he is, and he has to get intimate knowledge of troop movement without knowing whether or not it's the real thing. this isolation & instantaneous information naturally lends itself to space combat & computers, anything else would be forced.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: eytanz on March 31, 2008, 04:20:23 PM
shwankie pretty much expressed why I didn't like the story. This story adds a thin veneer of SF to trite relationship drama, but doesn't do so with neither enough commitment or thought to be worthwhile.

Also - I guess "Some girlfriends can" has been a while ago, so maybe most people forgot it (it's much better than this one but hardly one of EP's high points), but isn't this just a retread of almost exactly the same ground as the earlier story? Yeah, the ending is different, but the basic story of a woman, who is in a relationship with a self-absorbed jerk, and the relationship is really all about the guy's ex rather than about the protagonist, and she manages to miraculously grow a spine just in time for the story to end - those are the same components.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Yossarian's grandson on March 31, 2008, 06:26:37 PM
Can I just break the thread here and say that I really related to Steve's Geek Dad Intro?

Still here? OK. I have a 19-month old son and I find that watching his mind and personality develop is the most awe-inspiring, humbling experience of my life. From being just a bundle of instincts and not being able to differentiate between himself and ' the world', he's grown into what's starting to feel like a ' person'. What a trip. And he's just getting started.

Before I became a dad, I never considered this aspect of watching a child grow up. But witnessing the mind at it's beginning has tought me more about myself and people in general than any psychology course ever did. I thing Steve described this feeling really well. Surpisingly, this is something that I don't hear about from many other dads (or mums). But it's something special.

Just wanted to mention that. Really should say something about the story too. So here goes: trite and emotionally distant. Also, it reminded me of too much other stories in this vein (e.g. this weeks Pseudopod tale). Back to you....
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: wintermute on March 31, 2008, 08:18:26 PM
I have a 15-month-old daughter, and I know exactly what you mean. She's still a toddler, rather than a child, but every time I see her, she seems smarter and generally more capable.

Watching someone bootstrap themselves into sentience is the most science fiction thing you can do.

For extra fun, I can strongly recommend this book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553378252/escapepod-20). I found it fascinating.



Moderator: converted link
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Ocicat on April 01, 2008, 12:25:45 AM
As a science fiction view of the future, cloning, etc... this doesn't work, on many levels.  But it's not about that, any more than Animal Farm is about farm animals.

It's a metaphor, and I have to say the image of conducting a relationship by "following the rule book" is beautiful.  I suspect everything else was built as a way to bring us that central image.   
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on April 01, 2008, 12:39:07 AM
For Geek Dad Intro chat, be sure to check out the Geek Dad Intros (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1376.0) thread (Geek Moms and Geek Mums are welcome, too, of course).


But, metaphor or no, this was not my cup of tea.  (Woman, fetch my cup of tea!  *Ow!*  Never mind, honey...)

Seriously, though, I think Shwankie's synopsis covered most of what I thought... and I wanted to follow up what ajames said about the "solipsistic artist" stereotype: it's not being an artist that makes one a jerk; it's being so insensitive to another's needs that they pay $1 million to leave you.  If being stuck with a clone didn't get him to change his ways, then what makes it plausible that he'll change for the sake of the clone?  Not that the character needed to be convinced... I wasn't convinced.

On the other hand... the 1st Jacqui was pretty selfish in her way, too.  I'm very close to someone who does that "you have angered me, and I will silently wait for you to figure out that you're in trouble... the meter's running, pal" thing.  That's really not fair, either.  You HAVE to communicate to your partner that something is wrong, and give them a chance to fix whatever it is.  Now, if they are too thick-headed and/or stubborn to get with it in a timely manner... well, that's where you get into YMMV territory.

Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Listener on April 01, 2008, 12:39:32 PM
I liked that this was "small" SF -- it picked an element of SF and put it into a current setting (as far as we know) and didn't drown us in science.  I may have been the only person who didn't see the twist coming.

I too was not terribly sympathetic to Jackie2.  The whole drugs thing... I didn't feel as though it was adequately explained.  And there was way too much emphasis on small movements.  I do the same thing, but you have to know when to stop.  Maybe I know that, maybe I don't, but in the listening, I felt like this author didn't know when to let small movements go.  Especially with that coffee cup.

The reading was fine.  MA performed it sounding a little young for a character cloned from someone as calculating (apparently) as Jackie, but I don't know how old MA actually is, so maybe she is young.

Gave me an idea for an SF/erotica story though called "And Then There Were Four", so it's always good when someone else's work inspires you to write some of your own.

Overall not the best EP, but on the bright side, it was better than "Ishmael" :)

As for the intro... my daughter is 20 months on 4/11, and she's already starting to try to read (books are her very favorite things, more than toys) and just last weekend she made it abundantly clear that she wants to start potty-training... using the actual toilet, not the potty we got for her.  And we're starting to understand what she wants... although she doesn't seem to be able to articulate when she's upset, instead preferring to cry and point, and cry more when we guess wrong.  (Typical woman...  :P )*

* This statement was intended as fiction and should not be addressed in any way as my impugning of women.  Thank you.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: High 5 on April 01, 2008, 09:01:18 PM
This story would have been boring if it didn't have a clone in it.
Now, it was twice as boring.



Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on April 01, 2008, 09:30:47 PM
This story would have been boring if it didn't have a clone in it.
Now, it was twice as boring.





Then our job here is done.   ;D
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: CGFxColONeill on April 01, 2008, 11:04:17 PM
I felt like this was another social science fiction rather than regular SF
at least the borderlands cafe story did not pretend to be SF due to one very minor point in the story ( the cloning )
interesting story but definitely social science
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Nobilis on April 02, 2008, 05:20:25 PM
Ugh. Really, I mean that. Just ugh.

The problems with this story are so myriad I am not even sure I can start

...

My personal take on this story is that it's an allegory for a relationship in today's world: Girl spend life trying to make Boy happy, while not worrying about her own happiness (Jackie1). Girl wakes up one day and realizes Boy is a self-absorbed idiot and needs to change or she'll leave (epiphany). It's like she's found herself (clone). Boy says he'll change (Artist). Walk off into sunset. The beginning, IMHO, sounded to me like something added to make the story SF, an excuse to start the story with someone being a doormat. She didn't need a clone, that part is extraneous.
 

This isn't a story, it's a situation.  There's a story here, but the author hasn't told it.

I agree that this story was boring, trite, pointless, a true waste of space.  It was worse than "Lust for Learning" because it didn't even have an original idea going for it.  It's a big wad of nothing.

As much as I love EP, Steve, if you buy many more of these I'm going to stop listening.  Minus a thousand out of ten.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: DKT on April 02, 2008, 05:51:04 PM
I'm surprised by some of the hate on this one.  Some of it (the flaws of logic swhankie, in particular), makes a lot of sense to me -- somewhat blowing my own suspension of disbelief.

That said, I didn't feel the cloning was extraneous.  How would this be the same story if cloning wasn't involved?  I'm still not clear on that. 

I didn't see that Jackie1.0 was really alive fulfilling her dreams until the jogger stopped.  That surprised me.  And I thought she was the real villain of the story (although villain's a pretty harsh word -- maybe just the least sympathetic).  The Artist might've been so self-absorbed he didn't give Jackie1.0 but if we're to take him at his word, she didn't help him see it either.  And the Clone really got a crappy deal out of the whole thing.  This was the most fascinating part of the story for me -- how Jackie2.0 was groomed to be something, and then realized she didn't have to fall into the pre-selected mold, after all.  (She might have anyway, but she tried to be honest about it all with the Artist, which is more than Jackie1.0 did.)

The drugs reminded me of a number of things -- the drugs in the Giver, sure, but also the drugs in Garden State.   

So maybe not perfect, but I enjoyed listening to it.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on April 02, 2008, 09:49:44 PM

The drugs reminded me of a number of things -- the drugs in the Giver, sure, but also the drugs in Garden State.   

So maybe not perfect, but I enjoyed listening to it.

The drugs reminded me of a really cool, fast song I heard somewhere... maybe by JoCo?  ;)
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: DKT on April 02, 2008, 10:03:20 PM

The drugs reminded me of a number of things -- the drugs in the Giver, sure, but also the drugs in Garden State.   

So maybe not perfect, but I enjoyed listening to it.

The drugs reminded me of a really cool, fast song I heard somewhere... maybe by JoCo?  ;)

No more drugs for that man!
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: shwankie on April 02, 2008, 10:21:58 PM
Hm...maybe I should have explained the "cloning was extraneous" a bit better. So, here's a stab at it:

Leave out the word "clone" in the story, and you have the same story: A doormat of a woman, groomed by society/parents/religion/TV/whatever to be a Stepford wife. Smile, be sympathetic, and for cripe's sake don't mention have you needs. Your happiness is him being happy. She didn't need to be a clone for this to be the story. In fact, it's been told many times without a clone. Jackie1 was so removed from the story that leaving her out of it, or simply making her another ex-girlfriend, wouldn't have changed th story at all. Jackie 2's "She was so perfect, and now I have to live up to her" thing is the same obsession many women have. So, again, being a clone wasn't intrinsic.

I realize it would have changed it in small ways, but not the meat of the story.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: bolddeceiver on April 03, 2008, 02:27:11 AM
Jackie1 was so removed from the story that leaving her out of it, or simply making her another ex-girlfriend, wouldn't have changed th story at all.

I would argue that the original Jackie was central to the story.  If this were just about a a societally conditioned doormat, it would be an entirely different story; the Artist's displaced resentment of Jackie', Jackie's selfishness, and Jackie''s feelings of betrayal were the emotional content of the story, and I guess that if a reader so limited by the "oh no this isn't all about the big S" as to ignore all that the story would be as bad as everyone seems to think it is.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: eytanz on April 03, 2008, 08:27:45 AM
I'm surprised by some of the hate on this one.

As slight as the tale was, I don't get the hate.

Veering off topic here, but this is growing into a pet peeve. Why are all discussions reduced to a three-way contrast between "love", "sort of like", and "hate"? Why is it impossible to express any level of dislike for anything on an internet forum without people thinking that you hate it?

No-one who posted a negative review used the words "hate", "loathe", "can't stand". Shwankie said "ugh", and that was the strongest word used against it.

And it matters. You can say "As slight as the tale was, I don't get the hate" and sound reasonable. If you say "As slight as the tale was, I don't get why people disliked it" you sound silly. People can dislike things for all sorts of reasons, but hate is a strong emotion and needs justification. By calling the negative reactions "hate", you are trivializing the people holding them.

So, anyway, just to clarify - I don't like this story. I don't hate it, either. I don't have any emotions whatsoever about it. If there wasn't a forum thread about it for me to read, I'd probably have forgotten all about it by now, a few days after I heard it. That's a sign of a bad story. The few stories out there I really hate, I remember very well.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: DKT on April 03, 2008, 04:23:56 PM
I'm surprised by some of the hate on this one.

As slight as the tale was, I don't get the hate.

Veering off topic here, but this is growing into a pet peeve. Why are all discussions reduced to a three-way contrast between "love", "sort of like", and "hate"? Why is it impossible to express any level of dislike for anything on an internet forum without people thinking that you hate it?

No-one who posted a negative review used the words "hate", "loathe", "can't stand". Shwankie said "ugh", and that was the strongest word used against it.

And it matters. You can say "As slight as the tale was, I don't get the hate" and sound reasonable. If you say "As slight as the tale was, I don't get why people disliked it" you sound silly. People can dislike things for all sorts of reasons, but hate is a strong emotion and needs justification. By calling the negative reactions "hate", you are trivializing the people holding them.

So, anyway, just to clarify - I don't like this story. I don't hate it, either. I don't have any emotions whatsoever about it. If there wasn't a forum thread about it for me to read, I'd probably have forgotten all about it by now, a few days after I heard it. That's a sign of a bad story. The few stories out there I really hate, I remember very well.

Eh, sorry if I came across too harsh.  I didn't mean any offense.  Mostly, I used that word because I'd just read this:

This isn't a story, it's a situation.  There's a story here, but the author hasn't told it.

I agree that this story was boring, trite, pointless, a true waste of space.  It was worse than "Lust for Learning" because it didn't even have an original idea going for it.  It's a big wad of nothing.

As much as I love EP, Steve, if you buy many more of these I'm going to stop listening.  Minus a thousand out of ten.

(Emphasis mine, obviously.)  Those seemed like pretty strong words to me, mostly because I didn't find the story any of those.  But Nobilis, did, and that's cool.  I'm not picking on him, his opinion's just as valid as anyone else's.  I just didn't share it.  That's all I was saying. 

And like I said, I found some of the other responses to the story, including shwankie's, to be enlightening -- she made some good points and really blew some of this story's logic for me.

That said, I'll think twice about using the word now.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on April 04, 2008, 02:31:40 AM
I can certainly see where someone would read several posts in a thread from different folks "not liking" a story, and think "wow, they hated this!"  But for the record, if I REALLY hate something, I either don't say anything at all...


...or I say it about George Lucas (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1465.msg23282#msg23282).
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: deflective on April 04, 2008, 04:55:51 AM
Veering off topic here, but this is growing into a pet peeve. Why are all discussions reduced to a three-way contrast between "love", "sort of like", and "hate"?

habit from the social bookmarking (http://reddit.com/) sites? i make it a point to comment when i like a story, kind of an upvote to encourage similar stories.

maybe if we had a chance to rank stories (as at rotten tomatoes (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/)) it would open up the thread for more general discussion. then again, probably not.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on April 04, 2008, 12:42:57 PM
Veering off topic here, but this is growing into a pet peeve. Why are all discussions reduced to a three-way contrast between "love", "sort of like", and "hate"?

habit from the social bookmarking (http://reddit.com/) sites? i make it a point to comment when i like a story, kind of an upvote to encourage similar stories.

maybe if we had a chance to rank stories (as at rotten tomatoes (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/)) it would open up the thread for more general discussion. then again, probably not.

Bleh... I'm all for the "wisdom of crowds" stuff when it comes to wikis and social bookmarking, but stories like these are meant to be taken individually.  It's a very intimate thing, and having ratings attached to them would destroy a bit of that ... for me, at least.  I would say "do what you want, and I'll just ignore it", but I feel pretty strongly about this.  It's why I won't read forum threads before listening to a story.

I guess my opinion is that given a choice between "two thumbs up" and "YMMV", I'd rather have the latter.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Russell Nash on April 04, 2008, 12:46:23 PM
Veering off topic here, but this is growing into a pet peeve. Why are all discussions reduced to a three-way contrast between "love", "sort of like", and "hate"?

habit from the social bookmarking (http://reddit.com/) sites? i make it a point to comment when i like a story, kind of an upvote to encourage similar stories.

maybe if we had a chance to rank stories (as at rotten tomatoes (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/)) it would open up the thread for more general discussion. then again, probably not.

Bleh... I'm all for the "wisdom of crowds" stuff when it comes to wikis and social bookmarking, but stories like these are meant to be taken individually.  It's a very intimate thing, and having ratings attached to them would destroy a bit of that ... for me, at least.  I would say "do what you want, and I'll just ignore it", but I feel pretty strongly about this.  It's why I won't read forum threads before listening to a story.

I guess my opinion is that given a choice between "two thumbs up" and "YMMV", I'd rather have the latter.

This is why we just have normal threads.  No polls.  No point system.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Yossarian's grandson on April 05, 2008, 04:38:52 PM
For Geek Dad Intro chat, be sure to check out the Geek Dad Intros (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1376.0) thread (Geek Moms and Geek Mums are welcome, too, of course).

Thanks, I'll do my gushing there from now on. ;D
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Steven Saus on April 06, 2008, 01:18:08 AM
I liked this episode, especially when combined with Pseudopod's take on Heartstrings.  Steve's said more than once that science fiction is holding up a funhouse mirror to our own society (or something to that effect), and this does it well.

I haven't read other people's comments yet.  I'm sure that someone else thinks that it was over the top, too trite, too heavy-handed, and too improbable.  That things like that don't - and can't - happen any more.  I don't agree with them.  To me, this story is truth.

I heard this story earlier in the week.  It helped resolve a bad argument my wife and I were having yesterday.  It helped me understand things from another point of view.  The situations don't exactly match, but there were enough similarities to get me out of the cycle of just reacting.  It helped me stop following my manual long enough to help my wife put her manual aside too.

And then we smiled, and cried, and laughed.

Being able to remember this funhouse mirror helped me see my own situation a lot more clearly.

Thank you for bringing this story to us.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: wakela on April 07, 2008, 12:04:56 AM
I liked it, but I can't argue with any of Shwankie's points. 

I think the cloning was central the story.  The story was about being a clone, i.e. being created for a purpose, and being a child and an adult at the same time.  Maybe the theme of woman-as-doormat is so tired that I completely ignored that aspect.  Although I am usually very sensitive to whether or not the sciency part of a science fiction story is really necessary, I liked this story because I felt like it was one of the rare cases when it is.

There were lots of unbelievable aspects, but I was willing to give them a pass because I sympathized enough with Jackie2. 

Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Chey on April 07, 2008, 04:13:32 PM
I too agree that cloning was central to the story.  If not for cloning the Artist (as another commenter dubbed him) would have to court another woman, and perhaps risk learning from the mistakes of the prior marriage or grow with the new woman.  By cloning herself the Artist was able to just continue life with nary a hiccup.  What amazed me about this arrangement is that he was ok with it all.  If my spouse wanted to leave, would it really be a smooth transition.  I can just visualize the conversation.

“No really hon, you won’t even care that I’m gone.  I got you a Chris 2.0!  He’ll do everything I do now but without the angst and ennui.”

Riiiight, like I’d buy that for a moment.  And if the situation were to happen, why would I want an exact copy of what just left me?

I’m a bit surprised that instead of focusing on what type of person gladly accepts a replacement wife; most of the commentators are focused on her emotions and reactions.  I thought of her as a foil for him.  Her dependence on drugs to curb her emotions and retard the growth of her personality brought to mind ‘mother’s little helper’, and the frustrations of the fifties housewife trapped in a world where she exists only for the pleasure and comfort of her man.  We’ve moved past that in many ways, but there are still a lot of women (and some men) who are still in much the same situation.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: DDog on August 03, 2008, 09:56:43 PM
I kind of agree with eytanz, honestly. I thought the story was okay while I was listening to it, then forgot about it. I only remembered it other than now because Polyamory Weekly did a show called "Read The Fucking Manual" recently. The concept is valid, and I can definitely make connections to my own life (clones aside), but the story didn't really grab me.
Title: Re: EP151: Behind the Rules
Post by: Unblinking on July 20, 2010, 04:13:47 PM
I liked this one, but more for the horror aspects that it didn't talk about much explicitly--mostly the concept of giving away an "object" version of yourself as a decoy to escape your unhappiness.  I don't think I could ever do that--even if you're not a particularly empathic person, it's a little easier to imagine wearing someone else's shoes when they have the same feet as you.

I didn't much care for the doormat main character, but at least there was a reason for this incarnation to be a doormat.