Escape Artists

Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Russell Nash on June 27, 2008, 12:20:24 PM

Title: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Russell Nash on June 27, 2008, 12:20:24 PM
EP164: The Right Kind of Town (http://escapepod.org/2008/06/27/ep164-the-right-kind-of-town/)

By Christian Klaver (http://www.christianklaver.com/).
Read by Cunning Minx (of Polyamory Weekly (http://polyweekly.com/)).

Audible.com Promotion!
Get your free audiobook at: http://audible.com/escapepodsff (http://audible.com/escapepodsff)

In the civilized places closer to Hegemony space, you don’t see many bodies in the street in the first place. When you do, they’re always swarmed with sheriffs, marshals, constables, morticians and the like. Then the body gets moved fast, so as to not ruffle the civilized folk. The rest happens behind closed doors.

Some towns don’t ever get bodies in the street. The only deaths are from sickness or accidents or old age. But I don’t tend to get to those towns so much, since they frown on my whoring profession. The towns I work in, everyone carries a gun. Being a pretty woman in my line of work, I carry two.


Rated R. Contains sex, violence, profanity, the quick, and the dead.



(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://media.rawvoice.com/escapepod/media.libsyn.com/media/escapepod/EP164_RightKindOfTown.mp3)
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: wintermute on June 27, 2008, 12:25:46 PM
It did seem very FireFly.

Nice story, but too many unresolved questions about the main character and her motivations. I enjoyed it, but I'm left feeling I'd have enjoyed it more if I'd read other works in the same universe...
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: stePH on June 27, 2008, 01:33:08 PM
Haven't listened yet, but just reading the teaser I had a feeling Firefly fans would be all over it.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Void Munashii on June 27, 2008, 02:52:55 PM
  This is one of the better stories recently, and I was glad for the change. I've really not seen a lot of science fictions westerns, and even less space westerns, so this was fun and different for me. I may have to track down some of the author's other stories set in this universe, as it sounds like a fun one, sort of a 'Deadwood' on the final frontier.

  It goes without saying that the reading was wonderful, so I'll move on.

  The only problem I had with the story was at the very end. I know the author went to great lengths to demonstrate how little respect is given to dead bodies in this town, but I still would think that there must be some sort of law in town (or at least paidd thugs) who would react quickly and unkindly to the main character throwing the town's richest man off of a balcony.  Maybe too much of my western experience in through 'Deadwood', but I have to think that there would be some quick and violent retaliation from his cronies. This is just a small complaint now, and does not sour me on the story at all.

  Now let me stand aside for the flood of "If there weren't aliens, this wouldn't be sci-fi at all" comments  ;)

  *ducks*
 
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: wintermute on June 27, 2008, 03:03:30 PM
It has genetically-enhanced space-hookers! How could it not be science fiction?
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Darwinist on June 27, 2008, 03:06:49 PM
Liked it.  Loved Firefly.  The Right Kind of Town might work better as a longer story.  I thought the charachters and world were interesting, more information and background would have made it better perhaps.    
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: DKT on June 27, 2008, 03:22:33 PM
Something about the story didn't work so well for me.  Mostly, I think it was that I didn't really care that much about the characters.  Freeman, especially.  He turned out to be the bastard so quickly.  But also our protagonist.  I just never felt that connected to her.  Also, the info-dumping (and I have nothing against good infodumping) felt a bit forced. 

The reading was okay. 

I can see how people might put this kind of story in the same category, but it didn't feel at all like Firefly to me.  It was a space western, sure, but aside from that it lacked everything else I loved about the show, especially the characters, the dialogue, and the sense of adventure/romance.

It sounds like I hated this story and I didn't.  It just wasn't one I really enjoyed. 
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: stePH on June 27, 2008, 03:34:09 PM
  This is one of the better stories recently, and I was glad for the change. I've really not seen a lot of science fictions westerns, and even less space westerns, so this was fun and different for me. I may have to track down some of the author's other stories set in this universe, as it sounds like a fun one, sort of a 'Deadwood' on the final frontier.

Look for the movie Oblivion and its sequel.  They've got George Takei as the alcoholic town doctor.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Russell Nash on June 27, 2008, 05:20:43 PM
I think DKT summed it up for me on this one.

  The only problem I had with the story was at the very end. I know the author went to great lengths to demonstrate how little respect is given to dead bodies in this town, but I still would think that there must be some sort of law in town (or at least paidd thugs) who would react quickly and unkindly to the main character throwing the town's richest man off of a balcony.

She did mention she had to get out of town quickly.  SHe had time until word got back to his people, but that was about it.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Talia on June 27, 2008, 05:36:50 PM
Similar to firefly in "space western" general theme only, IMHO.. A huge part of firefly (for me)is the humor aspect, which wasn't reflected in the story.

An interesting story, but not enough character development for my tastes. Not enough information about what this .. person.. plant.. whatever thing was that died, either.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: DarkKnightJRK on June 27, 2008, 09:14:27 PM
No real complaints on this one. Love the world here and the idea of the Nightwalkers, when shown, was very interesting. I'll definately have to go to this guy's website to read some more of his work. In fact, the closest thing I can say for criticism is that while the tension between Kate and Freeman was interesting, when the reveal of her badassery was revealed, I was more interested in this not-all-that-explored part of it then in the conclusion.

Overall, a great EP. Kudos, good sir.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Void Munashii on June 27, 2008, 11:51:31 PM
Look for the movie Oblivion and its sequel.  They've got George Takei as the alcoholic town doctor.

  I've never seen that one, and I loved the Full Moon movies when I was in high school (I still have a 12 inch Blade doll). I hadn't even heard of this one (I sort of stopped watching FM films after the abomination that was Curse of the Puppet Master), so I'll have to check it out.

  Oh my!
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Chivalrybean on June 28, 2008, 06:09:58 AM
I liked it a medium amount. Wasn't fantastic, wasn't bad at all. I can't compare to FireFly because I have the boxed set, but I also have a 4 week old, so, yeah, but Steve got away without knowing who Phillip K. Dick was for a long time, so don't yell at me too much {;0)

I think a wild west setting can be lots of fun. I've gotten one story down in an alternate wild west setting (leans towards fantasy, not sci-fi), and this story did remind me that there is a whole lot of life to explore when choosing a story to tell in a wild west setting.

Are all Nightwalker stories western-ish, or was that just because of the planet? If it was located on say, a planet where cops swarm dead bodies, would that be a non-western planet?

I have a GeekDad shirt also! Same design. Go get one. Get robot t-shirt while you are there too, along with... ok, I wont plug it any more. But I do have one of the robots shirts too, it is really neat.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: eytanz on June 29, 2008, 04:29:14 AM
I enjoyed the story, but I felt that it could have done with some tightening up. There were quite a few sentences that were basically "Freeman said/did something, which relates to this intimate detail I knew about him because I had sex with him." It was fine the first time, but after a while it felt like she's just hammering the point over and over. She didn't sound so much like a mature, sexually experienced person, let alone a prostitue - she sounded like a teenager that's really proud of his or her first sexual encounter and trying to work it in to every conversation.

Other than that, as I said, I did enjoy it. Westerns don't do much for me as a genre, but space westerns are fun (though I'm nowhere near as big a Firefly fan as some around here).

One thing that I found weird was Steve's outro - what was the point of saying "we have to hurry through the feedback because there's a lot to catch up with" if he only gave feedback to one episode? I was expecting him to give a quick overview of 2-3 episodes feedback, but if he only covers one episode anyway, I can't see how it helps catch up if he hurries through it or not. Anyway, not particularly significant, just something I thought was a bit strange.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Void Munashii on June 29, 2008, 05:06:02 AM
She did mention she had to get out of town quickly.  SHe had time until word got back to his people, but that was about it.

  It sounded more to me like she was leaving because she had both killed her career and the town's economy along with Freeman. She makes a comment that she has to go pack soon. I would think that if she was fearing for her life she would either leave without packing, or would have packed already.

  "Nothin' would be left here for me"
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: eytanz on June 29, 2008, 05:17:50 AM
She did mention she had to get out of town quickly.  SHe had time until word got back to his people, but that was about it.

  It sounded more to me like she was leaving because she had both killed her career and the town's economy along with Freeman. She makes a comment that she has to go pack soon. I would think that if she was fearing for her life she would either leave without packing, or would have packed already.

  "Nothin' would be left here for me"

Yeah, I agree. She said something along the lines of "people don't visit whores who can crush bones" - she was not scared of retribution, it just seemed like her business relied on her appearing more vulnerable than she really was.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: bolddeceiver on June 29, 2008, 07:39:52 AM
This story left me absolutely cold.  I could understand how it should be an engaging story, but it just didn't pull it off for me.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Ocicat on June 29, 2008, 10:19:26 AM
I hate westerns.  Accordingly, this left me cold.  I didn't realy care enough about the people or setting to try and really figure out what was going on... she's a .... plant hybrid hooker?  With black skin that soaks up sunlight and makes her buffer than the biggest Western badasses?  Okay, whatever - moving along now.

Couldn't get into Firefly either, dispite being a huge fan of Buffy.  The western clothes and mannerisms just put me right the hell off.  And my brain never could get past the economics problems, either.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Sandikal on June 29, 2008, 01:36:24 PM
I liked the story, but it probably would have worked better in novel length.  I don't think the short-story format gave the author enough space to adequately develop either the characters or the setting.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: idratherbecaving on June 29, 2008, 06:17:25 PM
I enjoyed this story.  Kept my attention throughout.
The comment at the end about Westerns being out of place in Sci-fi got me to thinking.
That may be so, but in both this and Firefly, is Sci-Fi out of place in a Western?
If you look at it in that respect a Western story, trim with cowboys (galactic or not) has it's share of fun.
And even in the old Western's there are aliens, are there not?  I mean after all an Alien is From Latin aliēnus, "belonging to someone else", then "exotic, foreign".  So how out of place are they really?

I enjoyed this story because I was caught in the western appeal and thus when an alien lifeform was mention it didn't seem forced or out of place.  Similar to how Murder at Avedon Hill can seem like a Irish tale but still have Vampires etc and take place in another world other than what we concider to be Ireland.
Out of place... I don't think so!
Thanks for the great story!
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: eytanz on June 29, 2008, 08:02:31 PM
By the way, one thing I forgot to do in my comments yesterday is praise Minx's reading. I thought she did a really excellent job with this one.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Chodon on July 01, 2008, 11:35:34 AM
There were quite a few sentences that were basically "Freeman said/did something, which relates to this intimate detail I knew about him because I had sex with him." It was fine the first time, but after a while it felt like she's just hammering the point over and over. She didn't sound so much like a mature, sexually experienced person, let alone a prostitue - she sounded like a teenager that's really proud of his or her first sexual encounter and trying to work it in to every conversation. (snip)
Agreed.

Also, Freeman made the transition from benevolent town millionaire to murderer SO quickly it really threw me for a loop.  I think it would have worked better if she had suspicions about him the whole time, but couldn't keep herself away and in the end her suspicions were confirmed.  The fact that the narrator knew about his acts the whole time but we weren't let in on the secret didn't work for me at all.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: eytanz on July 01, 2008, 12:00:21 PM
Also, Freeman made the transition from benevolent town millionaire to murderer SO quickly it really threw me for a loop.  I think it would have worked better if she had suspicions about him the whole time, but couldn't keep herself away and in the end her suspicions were confirmed.  The fact that the narrator knew about his acts the whole time but we weren't let in on the secret didn't work for me at all.

I'm sorry to be contrary just after you were agreeing with me, but I disagree here. I thought the reveal worked. And it highlighted the nature of the world and of Freeman, where being a benevolent town millionaire and being a racist/specist murderer aren't mutually exclusive. He was generous to humans, but he didn't consider nightwalkers to be people, and didn't mind murdering them.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Listener on July 01, 2008, 12:08:28 PM
I don't mind the western aspect.  I often find myself, when reading westerns, wondering how a technological society can regress to westernism.

Didn't much care for the story, though.  Cates's motivations didn't do it for me; the escort falling in love with the town millionaire was cliche; she just so HAPPENS to be half-breed with the uber-powerful race that controls the spaceways; said interbreeding gives her superpowers; even though she's half-and-half, she's still had lemonade, which is apparently a delicacy; not enough given over to the other races in the Hegemony; who controls the Hegemony, anyway?  Too much was left open, and the story wasn't really long enough.  I think I could've forgiven most of it if Cates's motivations had been better (to me).

The reading was adequate, but Minx's voice sounded overprocessed.  Maybe that's how she really sounds; I've never spoken to her in person.  Or was it done that way because she's part-alien?

Overall... *shrug*
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: stePH on July 01, 2008, 03:00:11 PM
The reading was adequate, but Minx's voice sounded overprocessed.  Maybe that's how she really sounds; I've never spoken to her in person.  Or was it done that way because she's part-alien?

I wondered about that too.  It seemed there was a bit of phase-shift or "flanging" in the recording, and I wasn't sure if it was intentional or not.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Russell Nash on July 01, 2008, 06:26:39 PM
The reading was adequate, but Minx's voice sounded overprocessed.  Maybe that's how she really sounds; I've never spoken to her in person.  Or was it done that way because she's part-alien?

I wondered about that too.  It seemed there was a bit of phase-shift or "flanging" in the recording, and I wasn't sure if it was intentional or not.

I just thought the recording was of a lesser quality than normal.  If it was intentional, the effect went right past me.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: birdless on July 01, 2008, 09:09:06 PM
The reading was adequate, but Minx's voice sounded overprocessed.  Maybe that's how she really sounds; I've never spoken to her in person.  Or was it done that way because she's part-alien?

I wondered about that too.  It seemed there was a bit of phase-shift or "flanging" in the recording, and I wasn't sure if it was intentional or not.
It sounded over-processed to me, too. But i thought i remembered hearing the exact same sound in her reading of PC's "For Fear of Dragons," so i thought it must be intentional on her part for all her recordings. Maybe it's a quality issue, though.

edit: (Maybe it wasn't "For Fear of Dragons," but one of the one's she's read recently... well, maybe it wasn't recently... i'm still going through PP's backlog)
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: DKT on July 01, 2008, 09:11:21 PM
Maybe the Sloan Men over at PP?
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: birdless on July 01, 2008, 09:14:53 PM
Maybe the Sloan Men over at PP?
I thought of that one after i edited the comment once... it could have been that one.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Brian Deacon on July 01, 2008, 11:49:36 PM
Okee, I have nothing useful to say about the story other than I enjoyed it.  I just want to give Steve something to point to by saying that I just clickitied an audible credit for Kristine Rusch's The Disappeared based on his recommendation for the Retrieval Artist series.

And anyone tempted to do the same... do squint before you click, because it appears Audible is trying to be a pinch evil by tossing a $3.49 audiobook at you called "The Retrieval Artist" that you could burn a whole credit on, which appears to be just a 2 hour novella.  (Although narrated by Stefan Rudnicki who has a great, thunderous voice... I might spend the $3.49 on it, but I hate when I accidentally blow a credit on something cheap.)
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: CammoBlammo on July 02, 2008, 01:14:10 AM
I normally have trouble getting into a story, but I find if I wait five minutes I start to get involved. I got to the end of this one, but I'm still waiting.

I get the feeling I could get into it if I explored more of this world. It was the same with Firefly: it wasn't the spaceships or fancy guns that were important, it was the world building and story line. As DKT said, there was a lot of time spent info-dumping. This story needed to be twice as long and more needed to happen.

As it turned out, we just got Pretty Woman with Richard Gere actually turning out to be a bigger jerk. Prostitute meets rich man, rich man gives prostitute longer term employment, prostitute falls in love with rich man, situation becomes complicated when it transpires rich man is in fact a jerk who thinks he's above common whores. The stories diverge a little after that. Admittedly, I liked this ending a little better.

By the way, I also think an Eley-style warning might have been appropriate on this one. It didn't deserve an X-rating, but there was swearing, sex, violence and adult themes. My daughter heard exactly one word of the whole thing. Guess which one it was...
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Cerebrilith on July 02, 2008, 03:05:13 PM
  The only problem I had with the story was at the very end. I know the author went to great lengths to demonstrate how little respect is given to dead bodies in this town, but I still would think that there must be some sort of law in town (or at least paidd thugs) who would react quickly and unkindly to the main character throwing the town's richest man off of a balcony.  Maybe too much of my western experience in through 'Deadwood', but I have to think that there would be some quick and violent retaliation from his cronies.

The idea that something can be learned about a town by the way it treats dead bodies was interesting.  Though like Void Munashii I don't think it's credible that this super rich fellow doesn't have henchmen about to avenge him or someone to respond to his murder in some way.

My only other thought is a great big sarcastic "woohoo" for yet another prostitute story.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Dwango on July 02, 2008, 03:34:52 PM
I love the way Minx narrates stories, not overacted and more straight forward.  I just wish she had a better microphone.

As for the story, I'm with the consensus that the twists came out of left field and made them less believable.  I think some tells earlier in the story to Freeman's disposition and Cate's alien origin would have made it smoother and add an ah-hah feeling you get when you see the clues for what they are.  Yet, I still found the yarn interesting and worth the listen.

Now, when are we going to get a space pirates story?  space ninjas?
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: stePH on July 02, 2008, 04:34:51 PM
By the way, I also think an Eley-style warning might have been appropriate on this one. It didn't deserve an X-rating, but there was swearing, sex, violence and adult themes. My daughter heard exactly one word of the whole thing. Guess which one it was...

"Whore"?
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Russell Nash on July 02, 2008, 04:52:52 PM
By the way, I also think an Eley-style warning might have been appropriate on this one. It didn't deserve an X-rating, but there was swearing, sex, violence and adult themes. My daughter heard exactly one word of the whole thing. Guess which one it was...

"Whore"?

Was it "fuck"?
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: stePH on July 02, 2008, 05:12:02 PM
By the way, I also think an Eley-style warning might have been appropriate on this one. It didn't deserve an X-rating, but there was swearing, sex, violence and adult themes. My daughter heard exactly one word of the whole thing. Guess which one it was...

"Whore"?

Was it "fuck"?

Maybe it was "gun".  Or "body".
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: wintermute on July 02, 2008, 05:21:03 PM
I'm guessing "hegemony". I like that word.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: DKT on July 02, 2008, 05:22:07 PM
Firefly?  No, wait, that wasn't in the story. 

Nightwalker?
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Russell Nash on July 02, 2008, 06:29:08 PM
I knew jumping in on StePh's joke was asking for trouble, but I did it anyway.  Why do I do this?  Crap, I probably just started something else now.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: stePH on July 02, 2008, 06:46:29 PM
I knew jumping in on StePh's joke was asking for trouble, but I did it anyway.  Why do I do this?  Crap, I probably just started something else now.

FWIW, I'm not entirely sure that I was joking.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Russell Nash on July 02, 2008, 07:48:15 PM
I knew jumping in on StePh's joke was asking for trouble, but I did it anyway.  Why do I do this?  Crap, I probably just started something else now.

FWIW, I'm not entirely sure that I was joking.

That makes it twice as bad.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: CammoBlammo on July 02, 2008, 08:02:53 PM
By the way, I also think an Eley-style warning might have been appropriate on this one. It didn't deserve an X-rating, but there was swearing, sex, violence and adult themes. My daughter heard exactly one word of the whole thing. Guess which one it was...

"Whore"?

Was it "fuck"?

Ladies, gentlemen and smizmars, we have a winner!

I don't know if it's the way my speakers are set up, the acoustics of my house, the compression used in the mp3 or what, but that word seemed to have a percussive effect that resonated right up the hallway. And if there's anything that gets mum or dad in trouble in our house, it's bad language.

I forgot about those other words, which goes to my point even more. The escapepod site rates the story as 'R', so a warning might have been in order for reasons that go back before I started listening to EP.

Still, it could be worse. My mother-in-law doesn't arrive for another week yet.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Russell Nash on July 02, 2008, 08:06:07 PM
By the way, I also think an Eley-style warning might have been appropriate on this one. It didn't deserve an X-rating, but there was swearing, sex, violence and adult themes. My daughter heard exactly one word of the whole thing. Guess which one it was...

"Whore"?

Was it "fuck"?

Ladies, gentlemen and smizmars, we have a winner!

I don't know if it's the way my speakers are set up, the acoustics of my house, the compression used in the mp3 or what, but that word seemed to have a percussive effect that resonated right up the hallway. And if there's anything that gets mum or dad in trouble in our house, it's bad language.

I forgot about those other words, which goes to my point even more. The escapepod site rates the story as 'R', so a warning might have been in order for reasons that go back before I started listening to EP.

Still, it could be worse. My mother-in-law doesn't arrive for another week yet.

You have my pity.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Biscuit on July 03, 2008, 12:24:16 AM
I often find myself, when reading westerns, wondering how a technological society can regress to westernism.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I got to the end of it.

I want my Sci Fi to be progressive in morals and attitudes to violence, in the hope that it will reflect what will be our real societal evolution. I guess it's the old maxim of "Write What You Know" - and we only know violence and historic a-holes to make good drama.

So yeah, left me "meh" too.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on July 03, 2008, 05:14:52 AM
I often find myself, when reading westerns, wondering how a technological society can regress to westernism.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I got to the end of it.

I want my Sci Fi to be progressive in morals and attitudes to violence, in the hope that it will reflect what will be our real societal evolution. I guess it's the old maxim of "Write What You Know" - and we only know violence and historic a-holes to make good drama.

So yeah, left me "meh" too.

"Westernism"?  Been to China lately?  India?  Two ancient cultures, each sporting >1 billion people, both possessing space technology, and both overrun with poverty, disease, poor sanitation, and - yes - violence.  China has Tibet; India has Kashmir.  And pretty much everyone here would admit they are in "the East".  (Though the Middle Kingdom and its many neighbors might cavil on that point.)

I realize your point was not to say anything about "the West", so my choice of examples was not meant to reflect poorly on the Far East; however, I think the fact that there can be such economic disparity in a large, advanced culture is perfectly believable.  The idea that "a sufficiently advanced culture would get rid of all the bad stuff" is patent hogwash.  The U.S. has a sufficiently advanced culture... and we certainly haven't solved any of it.

But while it's not everyone's cup of tea, "westernism" certainly has a broad appeal (think of all those spaghetti westerns).  Australia has a romantic ideal similar to the Wild West, too, doesn't it, Biscuit?  Cowboy hats, horses, guns, etc.  I'm thinking of "Man from Snowy River" and "Quigley Down Under", but I'm sure there are many more.  I think the romantic appeal of that stuff probably comes from the fact that at the time, the Frontiers were just that... the unknown, possibility-rich future of an expanding nation.

Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Russell Nash on July 03, 2008, 10:27:21 AM
Australia has a romantic ideal similar to the Wild West, too, doesn't it, Biscuit? 

::cough::  She's from New Zealand. ::cough::

Wherethewild and Cammoblammo are Australian.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: CammoBlammo on July 03, 2008, 10:55:33 AM
Australia has a romantic ideal similar to the Wild West, too, doesn't it, Biscuit? 

::cough::  She's from New Zealand. ::cough::

Wherethewild and Cammoblammo are Australian.

It's true. I did live in New Zealand for 13 years though. I think it's fair to compare Australia to the Wild West.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on July 03, 2008, 11:53:04 AM
Australia has a romantic ideal similar to the Wild West, too, doesn't it, Biscuit?

::cough::  She's from New Zealand. ::cough::

Wherethewild and Cammoblammo are Australian.

Same general topographical POV... I'd feel justified asking a Canadian about American culture for the same reason.  We're all one, big, English-language-butchering family, aren't we?  ;)
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: errant371 on July 03, 2008, 02:40:32 PM
My two cents:  not a bad story; just not a great one.   The first line about learning alot about how a town treats its dead bodies was great, though.  It's too bad that Mr. Klaver couldn't follow up on it. 

I have no problem with S/F Westerns (Outland, Firefly, et al), they can be very enjoyable if they are Science Fiction.  "The Right Kind of Town" was not.  If we define a genre story as one having an intregal part of the plot which could not be replaced by another genre's convention, then it is a genre story.  To be more clear: "The Cold Equations" is a Science Fiction story because the plot turns on the fact that spaceships have limited fuel for their mass.  Mr. Klaver's protagonist could have been a vampire (and with a race name like Nightwalker, probably should have been) or a werewolf or a kung fu trained female shaolin monk.  Her being an alien had nothing to do with the story.  Only his info dump identified that this was supposed to be an S/F story, and that felt strained by having to pack so much information about his future world.  It was as if the author was running around with a sign reading "It's a Science Fiction Story".  There was nothing to distinguish it.

That, I think, is the reason why I am not all that impressed with "The Right Kind of Town".  No distinguishing features.  The protagonist is a prostitute (sigh), the antagonist is a rich asshole (sigh).  These are tired cliches.  I understand that certain cliches need to be in a story like this (obviously), but what matters is what is done with those cliches.  Other than making his hero half plant (interesting idea) there is nothing to distinguish her from any other prostitute hero?  One of the functions of speculative fiction (including S/F) is to subvert the genre's and reader's expectations.  Why not make her male instead of female?  Why not make the antagonist the good guy and the prostitute the bad guy? 

But like I said, it wasn't bad.  The plot was serviceable (if not dinstinguished), the characterization okay, and the prose was at times very good (like his opening line).  I think, however, that "The Right Kind of Town" would have worked better as a Weird (or Horror) Western better than as S/F.  Maybe if Mr. Klaver had another two or three thousand words with which to work, it might have been better.  There is potential in this universe  however.  I will head over to Mr. Klaver's website and see what else he has to offer.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Russell Nash on July 03, 2008, 06:33:57 PM
Before we get into an is or isn't SF battle, I'd like to step in and say a word.  This type of thing can get into a nasty argument and it really is a judgement call.  I'd like to change the vocabulary a little if I may.  A few stories back someone used the phrase "a thin veneer of SF".  I thought this was brilliant.  It grudgingly said, "OK, it may be officially SF, but Not enough for me." 

She's an Alien (Half-breed? I don't remember exactly) and talks about going to other planets and orbiting ships.  That qualifies it as "officially" SF.  The questions really are: "Is this your SF?", "Were the elements used well?", "Was the world interesting?"

errant371 would have answered something like: no. no. a little to begin with, but the author didn't keep it going. 

The is or isn't it battles get very boring and I tend to split them off.  This doesn't make anyone happy.  But feel free to call the elements weak and poorly used til the cows come home. 

Thank you and play ball.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: errant371 on July 03, 2008, 07:11:52 PM
Before we get into an is or isn't SF battle, I'd like to step in and say a word.  This type of thing can get into a nasty argument and it really is a judgement call.  I'd like to change the vocabulary a little if I may.  A few stories back someone used the phrase "a thin veneer of SF".  I thought this was brilliant.  It grudgingly said, "OK, it may be officially SF, but Not enough for me." 

She's an Alien (Half-breed? I don't remember exactly) and talks about going to other planets and orbiting ships.  That qualifies it as "officially" SF.  The questions really are: "Is this your SF?", "Were the elements used well?", "Was the world interesting?"

errant371 would have answered something like: no. no. a little to begin with, but the author didn't keep it going. 

The is or isn't it battles get very boring and I tend to split them off.  This doesn't make anyone happy.  But feel free to call the elements weak and poorly used til the cows come home. 

Thank you and play ball.

A good point.  The definition I used above is not one that everyone will agree with (and sometimes I don't myself, but that is a different story).  I used it as a way of pointing out that there was no science fiction element in this story that couldn't be replace with some other genre trope.  Sticking within the western motif, you could replace the spaceships with stagecoaches, the planets with Tombstone equivilents, the aliens with gunslingers etc.  You could do the same with a fantasy motif just as easily.  This author went with S/F.  Does this make it an S/F story?  Well, that is debatible, and as Russel Nash points out, perhaps a fruitless debate.  Did the author use these conventions well?  In my opinion, no.  That makes it a bad S/F story.  Your milage may vary.  In the end it doesn't matter if the story has a S/F, Horror or Fantasy gloss if the story is well plotted, well written and has interesting characters.  Did the author use these conventions well?  Sort of.  That makes it an okay story regardless of genre.

I read a lot of Science Fiction.  This one really didn't do much for me.  There was nothing really interesting or new here.  I am not calling down the author's skill, by any means.  His nuts and bolts writing is much better than some I have read.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Russell Nash on July 03, 2008, 08:20:39 PM
Back in the ep113 thread we had one guy (the only guy to ever get banned from these forums for something other than spamming) who was saying similiar things.  I said any SF story could be turned into a non-SF story.  I then turned Star Wars into the Alamo. 

When I challenged him to come up with a story that couldn't be changed, he came up with Soylent Green.  I turned it into a story about cannibalism on the Oregon Trail.  I still contend there isn't a single SF story that can't be turned into a non-SF story.

If you want to challenge me, start a new thread so we don't goop up this thread.  That sounds madder than I meant it.  It's supposed to be a fun challenge.   8)
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: errant371 on July 03, 2008, 08:56:45 PM
Back in the ep113 thread we had one guy (the only guy to ever get banned from these forums for something other than spamming) who was saying similiar things.  I said any SF story could be turned into a non-SF story.  I then turned Star Wars into the Alamo. 

When I challenged him to come up with a story that couldn't be changed, he came up with Soylent Green.  I turned it into a story about cannibalism on the Oregon Trail.  I still contend there isn't a single SF story that can't be turned into a non-SF story.

If you want to challenge me, start a new thread so we don't goop up this thread.  That sounds madder than I meant it.  It's supposed to be a fun challenge.   8)

Is all good. ;D  I will have to think about such a challenge.  The only thing that springs to mind at the moment would be "The Cold Equations" or perhaps "Mimsy Were the Borogoves" and possibly that one story by C.L. Moore where a singer's mind is deposited into a mechanical body (sounds pretty standard plot until you read it) whose name escapes me.

If you are up to it, we could start a thread to duel on this issue, but I can't guarantee that I have the time to give it my full participation!  I am almost done work for the day and may not be back on this forum until tomorrow.

/Also, I seem to be having trouble getting hyperlinks to work in posts (no biggie, but I like to link things like story names etc for those who might not recognize them).
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: DKT on July 03, 2008, 09:05:01 PM
Back in the ep113 thread we had one guy (the only guy to ever get banned from these forums for something other than spamming) who was saying similiar things.  I said any SF story could be turned into a non-SF story.  I then turned Star Wars into the Alamo. 

When I challenged him to come up with a story that couldn't be changed, he came up with Soylent Green.  I turned it into a story about cannibalism on the Oregon Trail.  I still contend there isn't a single SF story that can't be turned into a non-SF story.

If you want to challenge me, start a new thread so we don't goop up this thread.  That sounds madder than I meant it.  It's supposed to be a fun challenge.   8)

Is all good. ;D  I will have to think about such a challenge.  The only thing that springs to mind at the moment would be "The Cold Equations" or perhaps "Mimsy Were the Borogoves" and possibly that one story by C.L. Moore where a singer's mind is deposited into a mechanical body (sounds pretty standard plot until you read it) whose name escapes me.

If you are up to it, we could start a thread to duel on this issue, but I can't guarantee that I have the time to give it my full participation!  I am almost done work for the day and may not be back on this forum until tomorrow.

/Also, I seem to be having trouble getting hyperlinks to work in posts (no biggie, but I like to link things like story names etc for those who might not recognize them).

Keep in mind, we all have the Russell Nash vs. Everyone (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1069.0) thread. And Russell really doesn't like losing...
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Biscuit on July 03, 2008, 10:23:52 PM
Yes, we have aspects of "westernism"/"frontierism" (heh, are they words?) - I'd imagine any society with a farming culture has them. I've just never personally identified with them - as my husband gently teases me all the time, I'm a real townie.

Also, having a feminist leaning, I find it hard to identify with westernism because of it's dominant male focus.

Yes, I agree the possibilities of the "wild frontier" hold great prospects, but one would think if we're reaching out to the stars we have the finances, maturity and intellect to be doing so. If we're going to regress to our hind brain within a generation of colonizing, then we're not evolved enough to handle the jandal in space.

Or we're just gonna shoot the stoopids out into space, so the intelligenci can have the earth to themselves and run it the right way ;)
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on July 03, 2008, 11:48:53 PM

Yes, I agree the possibilities of the "wild frontier" hold great prospects, but one would think if we're reaching out to the stars we have the finances, maturity and intellect to be doing so. If we're going to regress to our hind brain within a generation of colonizing, then we're not evolved enough to handle the jandal in space.

Or we're just gonna shoot the stoopids out into space, so the intelligenci can have the earth to themselves and run it the right way ;)

I don't think that's entirely fair to the colonists.  Sure, you literally have to be a rocket scientist to get into space ... for now ... but we're close to commercializing space travel, and once that starts, it will be a matter of migratorial economics.  Most of these stories (Firefly being among the better examples) focus on people who choose to be on the fringes of a high-tech society.  Choosing to live on the fringes of society is NOT a good indicator of low intelligence.  Sometimes, depending on the society, it's an indicator of exceptional intelligence.

Of course, that's just *my* browncoat sensibility showing, now, I think.  ;)


Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Biscuit on July 04, 2008, 12:16:39 AM
There's a difference between living on the fringes (power within oneself/independence) and lawlessness (power over others).

If you're a rebel with a cause, cool - forge ahead into space. If you're there just to shoot 'em up and have your way with the lasses, stay right out of my colony ship plzktnx.

Follow a leader out of respect, not fear.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: wakela on July 04, 2008, 12:27:53 AM
I'm surprised at the positive feedback.  I thought this was one of the dullest EP stories I've heard.  The conflict is established more than half way through the story and then is resolved by saying, "oh and by the way I have superpowers."  The veneer of science fiction was thin to the point of literal non-existence for 90% of the story.    There was an awful lot of exposition, and it described nothing novel.

There was some potential with exploring the Nightwalker's code.  What would have happened if the code demanded that someone be protected who did not deserve it?  What happens when it conflicts with human law?  The western and science fiction genres have the ideal tools for exploring issues like this.  

Also the idea that the hookers were non-human could have been interesting.  What happens when a non-human is mistreated?  Do the plants really have feelings?  Do they have intelligence without having feelings?

Claim of ignorance: I missed how Cate realized that Mr. Big Shot killed her friend.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on July 04, 2008, 02:03:07 AM
There's a difference between living on the fringes (power within oneself/independence) and lawlessness (power over others).

If you're a rebel with a cause, cool - forge ahead into space. If you're there just to shoot 'em up and have your way with the lasses, stay right out of my colony ship plzktnx.

Follow a leader out of respect, not fear.

The thing about the fringes is, there ain't no leaders.

The Western genre has severely overblown the actual state of affairs in the westward expansion of the U.S. when it comes to all the shoot-outs and outlaws.  Most of the reality was that people saw the wide-open spaces as a chance to get away from others and make their own way.  Translate that to a Sci-fi setting, where it is feasible to transport people to many different, life-supporting planets, and I don't doubt you'll get the same kind of progression.  Surly individualists, religious idealists, expansionist exploitationists - your "rebels" with their sundry causes - will lead the way, and the various predators, parasites, and politicians will surely follow.

To drag this back on topic, we were told in one of the infodumps that the planet had a lot of populated areas.  I had the impression that some were "nicer", and some were seedier.  If you allow enough time for human expansion, and throw in aliens and lord-knows-what-all technology, you're bound to have areas that are lawless.  When humans are around long enough, they spring up on their own; they wouldn't necessarily have to be on your colony ship.

(And, Biscuit, I didn't mean to drag you personally into an argument; I only meant to engage a non-U.S. P.O.V.  I'm really a townie myself, so I would probably not find myself in a town like the one our protagonist seemed to enjoy so much.)
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Russell Nash on July 04, 2008, 05:36:24 PM
I still contend there isn't a single SF story that can't be turned into a non-SF story.

If you want to challenge me, start a new thread so we don't goop up this thread.  That sounds madder than I meant it.  It's supposed to be a fun challenge.   8)

Is all good. ;D  I will have to think about such a challenge.  The only thing that springs to mind at the moment would be "The Cold Equations" or perhaps "Mimsy Were the Borogoves" and possibly that one story by C.L. Moore where a singer's mind is deposited into a mechanical body (sounds pretty standard plot until you read it) whose name escapes me.

If you are up to it, we could start a thread to duel on this issue, but I can't guarantee that I have the time to give it my full participation!  I am almost done work for the day and may not be back on this forum until tomorrow.

/Also, I seem to be having trouble getting hyperlinks to work in posts (no biggie, but I like to link things like story names etc for those who might not recognize them).

As far as the code goes, put something up one of the moderators will fix it, especially if you say you know it isn't right.  Then you can come back click "modify" and look at what we did.  SMF uses BBCode.  It's a little obscure nowadays, so not everyone knows how it works.

As far as the challenge goes, try to stay with movies if you can.  There's a better chance more people will know it and can judge how I did.

Keep in mind, we all have the Russell Nash vs. Everyone (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1069.0) thread. And Russell really doesn't like losing...

You just keep bringing that thing up.  Wherethewild beat me.  She kicked me out.  The funny thing is I keep hanging out with her.  I guess I just have a thing for strong, smart women. 

Always aim high guys!

Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Russell Nash on July 04, 2008, 05:38:03 PM
The veneer of science fiction was thin to the point of literal non-existence for 90% of the story.

I guess I asked for this, but doen't it read really well?
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: errant371 on July 04, 2008, 05:48:00 PM
/Also, I seem to be having trouble getting hyperlinks to work in posts (no biggie, but I like to link things like story names etc for those who might not recognize them).

As far as the code goes, put something up one of the moderators will fix it, especially if you say you know it isn't right.  Then you can come back click "modify" and look at what we did.  SMF uses BBCode.  It's a little obscure nowadays, so not everyone knows how it works.

Interesting.  The Internet Review of Science Fiction (http://irosf.com) also uses BBCode, if I am not mistaken, but their tags run [a][/a] for hyperlinks.  I will keep trying to wrap my brain around it.  Give it a shot for the attempted IROSF link. Their url is http://irosf.com

Quote
As far as the challenge goes, try to stay with movies if you can.  There's a better chance more people will know it and can judge how I did.

Ahh, taking the easy way I see.  :D  I keed, I keed.  Movies make it easier all around anyway.  In any case, if I come up with one, I will be sure to make a thread for us to argue in!

Mod:  OK, I did the link.  Short explanation:  Highlight what you want to link.  Click the hyperlink button above the smileys. (In Safari it's directly below the underline button. YMMV)  That gives you:
Code: [Select]
[url]Stuff you highlighted[/url]In the first brackets type an equals sign after url and then type the address.
Code: [Select]
[url=http://crap.com]Stuff you highlighted[/url]You are done.

I realize you had already done some of this.  I figured since I was doing it, I might as well do it from the first step, so all the new folks could see.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Roney on July 04, 2008, 10:48:03 PM
Or we're just gonna shoot the stoopids out into space, so the intelligenci can have the earth to themselves and run it the right way ;)
I don't think that's entirely fair to the colonists.

Tad, we tend not to call you "colonists" any more and we know that not all of you are stoopid.  ;)

Seriously, I thought this story was pretty meh.  I love Firefly but not for the trappings of Western-in-space.  In fact, I find that whole concept boring, nostalgic, absurd and antithetical to the spirit of science fiction.  The point of Westerns is that they mythologize a brief period when very specific geopolitical and technological circumstances created a new culture.  Even if a future civilization has a similar remoteness from existing forms of authority it will not result in a recreation of the Western aesthetic.  As already mentioned in this thread, some remote regions of India and China face a subset of the pressures on America's West but nobody would mistake daily life there for life in the West -- if nothing else there's better cellphone coverage.

At the risk of derailing the thread (Russell, feel free to split it if I get some replies) can anyone recommend SF where future colonization is described in a way that reads plausibly without fetishizing the Western past?  I thought that the first couple of hundred pages of The Reality Dysfunction (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0446605158/escapepod-20) (seems to have been split into two paperbacks for the US market, which isn't a bad idea for a 1000-page book) did a fairly good job.  Any other suggestions for forward-looking frontierism?

Mod: link EPized
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Roney on July 04, 2008, 10:52:11 PM
SMF uses BBCode.  It's a little obscure nowadays, so not everyone knows how it works.

This page (http://docs.simplemachines.org/index.php?board=22.0;sort=subject) wasn't hard to find back in the day when I first felt the need to Google it, and it's never let me down.  It's not easily searchable but all the information is there.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on July 04, 2008, 11:34:36 PM
Or we're just gonna shoot the stoopids out into space, so the intelligenci can have the earth to themselves and run it the right way ;)
I don't think that's entirely fair to the colonists.

Tad, we tend not to call you "colonists" any more and we know that not all of you are stoopid.  ;)

...  As already mentioned in this thread, some remote regions of India and China face a subset of the pressures on America's West but nobody would mistake daily life there for life in the West -- if nothing else there's better cellphone coverage.


Not *ALL* of us... but my neighbors are drinking and ligthing off fireworks, which tends to argue against being S-M-R-T.   ::)

And, no, I didn't intend to compare India or China with the "wild west"; just to point out that advanced cultures can have a wide disparity of economic situations.  And that it's not a question of brainses... unless zombies get involved.

Hmmmm...
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Swamp on July 06, 2008, 03:55:02 AM
...can anyone recommend SF where future colonization is described in a way that reads plausibly without fetishizing the Western past?

I remember a story from the first issue of Orson Scott Card's Intergalactic Medicine Show (http://www.intergalacticmedicineshow.com/cgi-bin/mag.cgi?do=issue&vol=i1) called Respite by Rachel Ann Dryden.  As well as I can remember, I think it fits that criteia.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Biscuit on July 07, 2008, 12:49:02 AM
Tango - no probs :) All for the sake of intelligent discussion! (which is what I LOVE about these forums)

In fact, I find that whole concept boring, nostalgic, absurd and antithetical to the spirit of science fiction.  The point of Westerns is that they mythologize a brief period when very specific geopolitical and technological circumstances created a new culture.  Even if a future civilization has a similar remoteness from existing forms of authority it will not result in a recreation of the Western aesthetic.  As already mentioned in this thread, some remote regions of India and China face a subset of the pressures on America's West but nobody would mistake daily life there for life in the West -- if nothing else there's better cellphone coverage.

You summed this up far better than I would be able to articulate (and with more multi-syllable words too!).
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: zalpha on July 07, 2008, 01:21:17 PM
Being a big fan of the Firefly/Serenity Mythos, I found this story to come up tragically short. Like Neophytes and Neon Lights, the Sci-Fi was stapled on almost as an afterthought. In F/S, Sci-Fi is the setting, and needed for many of the twists and turns in the show and movie. Here, it seemed like window dressing. Science Fiction did not add to the story, nor did it detract from it, but it was barely used in the story at all.

I found myself eating this green eggs and ham and finding out that they are regular ham and eggs with food coloring added.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Swamp on July 07, 2008, 01:34:15 PM
Being a big fan of the Firefly/Serenity Mythos, I found this story to come up tragically short. Like Neophytes and Neon Lights, the Sci-Fi was stapled on almost as an afterthought. In F/S, Sci-Fi is the setting, and needed for many of the twists and turns in the show and movie. Here, it seemed like window dressing. Science Fiction did not add to the story, nor did it detract from it, but it was barely used in the story at all.

I found myself eating this green eggs and ham and finding out that they are regular ham and eggs with food coloring added.

This sentiment has been repeated oft in this thread, and I offer one consideration.  I believe it was mentioned that this was a stories from either a collection of stories in the same universe and/or possibly a novel.  Perhaps the the other stories in the collection delve deeper into the truly sci-fi aspects of the world.  Perhaps this story is sample of one of the "western" worlds, showing the sci-fi only as the previously-established backdrop.

Just a thought.  The story for me was OK, and that's about it.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: The Dunesteef on July 08, 2008, 10:19:19 PM
I liked the story, but comparing it to Firefly was not fair.  I guess the same will go for all films in the sword and sorcery genre that come after Jackson's Lord of the Rings movies.  They'll get the comparison and it won't be fair at all.

On the subject of colony worlds devolving into wild west type society, I find that totally believable myself.  Technology needs the infrastructure to exist.  If there's no factories to build Ipods, then no one will have Ipods.  For us, there's a factory in China or whatever, and it's easy enough for one to be shipped here.  But what if the factory was on Mars, how easy would that shipping be.  Eventually all the worlds will progress to where they can build their own technology, but to begin with, frontier planets could easily resemble the wild west.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: stePH on July 08, 2008, 11:15:35 PM
I liked the story, but comparing it to Firefly was not fair.  I guess the same will go for all films in the sword and sorcery genre that come after Jackson's Lord of the Rings movies.  They'll get the comparison and it won't be fair at all.

Comparing all sci-fi westerns to Firefly is particularly unfair since the aforementioned Oblivion movies, as well as the anime Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, and Outlaw Star, all predate Firefly by some years.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Void Munashii on July 09, 2008, 12:25:24 AM
Or we're just gonna shoot the stoopids out into space, so the intelligenci can have the earth to themselves and run it the right way ;)

  That didn't work out fo well for the Golgfrinchans, dirty telephones and all.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Biscuit on July 09, 2008, 10:32:31 PM
Perhaps the the other stories in the collection delve deeper into the truly sci-fi aspects of the world.  Perhaps this story is sample of one of the "western" worlds, showing the sci-fi only as the previously-established backdrop.

Fair enough, and I'm sure writers put out these short stories as tasters for their novels (which is how I got to Allen Steele's Coyote universe). But sometimes these short stories expect your foreknowledge of said universe to such an extent that anyone who hasn't read the novels/other stories can feel disconnected.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Alasdair5000 on July 09, 2008, 10:51:10 PM
SMF uses BBCode.  It's a little obscure nowadays, so not everyone knows how it works.

This page (http://docs.simplemachines.org/index.php?board=22.0;sort=subject) wasn't hard to find back in the day when I first felt the need to Google it, and it's never let me down.  It's not easily searchable but all the information is there.

Legacy of Heorot by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle is fantastic.  Likewise the relentlessly nasty Coyote by Allen Steele.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: birdless on July 10, 2008, 02:50:12 AM
Claim of ignorance: I missed how Cate realized that Mr. Big Shot killed her friend.
Wakela, i was wondering the same thing. I missed that, too. I was hoping someone would answer that question for us, because i didn't enjoy the story enough to listen to it again. :P

Comparing all sci-fi westerns to Firefly is particularly unfair since the aforementioned Oblivion movies, as well as the anime Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, and Outlaw Star, all predate Firefly by some years.
I can't speak for Outlaw Star (that's a new one to me), but Trigun and Bebop were certainly great sci-fi westerns. I may even like those better than Firefly, though i can't say i've seen enough episodes to make a fair judgment.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: stePH on July 10, 2008, 04:47:38 AM
Comparing all sci-fi westerns to Firefly is particularly unfair since the aforementioned Oblivion movies, as well as the anime Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, and Outlaw Star, all predate Firefly by some years.
I can't speak for Outlaw Star (that's a new one to me), but Trigun and Bebop were certainly great sci-fi westerns. I may even like those better than Firefly, though i can't say i've seen enough episodes to make a fair judgment.

I think the most "western" thing about Cowboy Bebop is simply the title, and that the main characters are bounty hunters.  And there's that one episode (out of twentysix) called "Cowboy Funk" with the rival bounty hunter who dresses like a cowboy.

I haven't seen Outlaw Star either.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: birdless on July 10, 2008, 06:05:19 PM
I think the most "western" thing about Cowboy Bebop is simply the title, and that the main characters are bounty hunters.  And there's that one episode (out of twentysix) called "Cowboy Funk" with the rival bounty hunter who dresses like a cowboy.

I haven't seen Outlaw Star either.
True, about Cowboy Bebop.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Roney on July 10, 2008, 08:17:12 PM
Legacy of Heorot by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle is fantastic.  Likewise the relentlessly nasty Coyote by Allen Steele.

Loved Legacy of Heorot.  Hadn't heard of Coyote (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0441011160/escapepod-20/) but it sounds fascinating -- I've added it to my ever-expanding to-read list...
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: stePH on July 10, 2008, 08:36:58 PM
mmmmmmm ... grilled samlon  :P
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Planish on July 11, 2008, 07:14:50 AM
My biggest problem was not knowing who/what Nightwalkers were. A company? A species? A profession? A travelling culture, like [the Hollywood notion of] Gypsies? Are they only up in orbit on a ship? Half the time I thought it was "nightworkers". Cate mentions being "half Nightwalker" - which of her characteristics were Nightwalker - the plant parts, or what?
Did Freeman know Cate was part Nightwalker? Evidently not, since she says he didn't notice a lot of things.

I got real confused right after she asked Freeman if it was a business arrangement or what. Her reaction to his answer really muddied some things up, like what her motivation was in doing him in.

There was some potential with exploring the Nightwalker's code.  What would have happened if the code demanded that someone be protected who did not deserve it?  What happens when it conflicts with human law?  The western and science fiction genres have the ideal tools for exploring issues like this.  
The Code... If she cared about the Code, why should it matter whether or not Freeman was aware of it?
Or is the Code more like guidelines?

Claim of ignorance: I missed how Cate realized that Mr. Big Shot killed her friend.
I had to replay it to figure that one out.
@14:23 - "The Nightwalkers didn't normally share information with outsiders. What happened in Nightwalker territory stayed in Nightwalker territory. Freeman should have been able to avail himself of any of the indentured pleasure slave there to any degree, without it getting back to any other Human ears. Still, Family's good for something."

Next she goes on about "We're not even people to someone like that." Did she mean "we prostitutes", or "we hybrids"? (Ooh - shades of Bladerunner.) Maybe the author intended it to have a double meaning.

At any rate, it confused me as to what Cate was, and how she's connected to Nightwalkers. Was she the "other human ears" (meaning she was Human) or did it mean she was treated as a Nightwalker, and hence privy to Nightwalker info.

So, I thought the beginning was okay, and the ending was pretty good, but I had the feeling I was reading a hard-copy book and accidently skipped 10 pages.

Loved Minx's reading though, as ever.

I believe the odd "overprocessed" sound quality is an artifact of overly-aggressive noise removal. If it's "spectral noise gating" such as used by Audacity 1.3.3 or later (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/), the more obvious artifacts can be quite loud and sound like a dozen tinkly glass wind chimes passed through a phlanger (http://audacityteam.org/wiki/index.php?title=HowAudacityWorks#Artifacts).
I find it less obtrusive simply to allow more of the original background noise to remain, since the natural analog noise is less alien to my ears than the artifacts, so I tend to adapt to it and forget about it sooner.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Ersatz Coffee on July 15, 2008, 11:00:27 PM
This was a so-so story for me. Kicked along nicely, but didn't really engage the intellect much. Not the sort of story I'll be thinking about weeks later.

I don't buy the theory that any SF story can be turned into a non-SF story (not without losing its essence, anyway). I think restricting the challenge to film is a bit dubious though - so much film 'SF' is actually fantasy anyway (Star Wars being a case in point - how many SF stories start 'Long ago...'?).

I guess this all turns on how we define story. If you just make it the human, interpersonal and emotional aspects of the thing, well they're pretty much bound by the parameters of human nature; but many a decent SF story is engaging on a level beyond that. Consider, for example, the 'what ifs?' that explore potential future technologies and examine their potential implications. When Ray Bradbury wrote a story back in the 1950s ("The Murderer") suggesting that cell phones (well OK, wrist radios) might be an intrusive pain in the butt, he was framing a distinctly SFnal argument. You could maybe forcibly transplant the story kicking and screaming into the fantasy genre, or even a historical setting (with messengers bursting in uninvited every 2 seconds) - but that would be entirely losing the point. The point was about the future of communications technology and how it might be more of a mixed blessing than anyone anticipated. That kind of story has its natural home in the SF genre, because the technology is an integral part of the thematic argument, not just window dressing.
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Rain on July 20, 2008, 06:20:52 PM
I liked it, but it has the same problem i find in most short stories, it was a nice first chapter but now where is the rest of it?
Title: Re: EP164: The Right Kind of Town
Post by: Unblinking on August 18, 2010, 04:51:25 PM
Regarding the question of SF movies that could have SF removed from them and still be the same movie, there are lots.  The most clearcut cases for me are those where the future technology is essential to the purpose.  For instance:
The Matrix
Inception
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind

Anyway, this story didn't do much for me.  Despite the space western setting, it was nothing like Firefly which managed to maintain a balance of action, humor, and emotion all within one setting.  My biggest problem with this one was the deus ex machina "Oh, by the way, I'm not human, I'm a plant-woman with super-human strength".  That especially bugs me when it's a major trait of the POV character.  I ought to know about her superhuman-ness looooong before it becomes vital to the plot.  Introducing it at the resolution JUST as it becomes important doesn't work so well.