Escape Artists
Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Russell Nash on July 11, 2008, 10:29:19 AM
-
EP166: The Something-Dreaming Game (http://escapepod.org/2008/07/11/ep166-the-something-dreaming-game/)
By Elizabeth Bear (http://www.elizabethbear.com/).
Read by Mur Lafferty (of The Takeover (http://zombinc.net/) and The Murverse (http://murverse.com/)).
First appeared in Fast Forward 1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591024862?ie=UTF8&tag=escapepod-20&creativeASIN=1591024862), ed. Lou Anders.
Audible.com Promotion!
Get your free audiobook at: http://audible.com/escapepodsff (http://audible.com/escapepodsff)
First, there’s the pressure.
A special kind of pressure, high under Tara’s chin, that makes her feel heavy and light all at once. She kneels by the chair and leans across the edge, because if she faints, the chair will roll away and she won’t choke. She’s always careful.
After the pressure she gets dizzy, and her vision gets kind of… narrow, dark around the edges. It’s hard to breathe, and it feels like there’s something stuck in her throat. Prickles run up and down her back, down her arms where the pain used to be, and a warm fluid kind of feeling sloshes around inside her. She slides down, as things get dark, and then she starts to dream.
But not like night time dreams. These are special.
Rated R. Contains children engaging in extremely dangerous practices. Parental guidance STRONGLY recommended.
Referenced Sites:
Brave Men Run: A Novel of the Sovereign Era (http://bravemenrun.com/)
(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://media.rawvoice.com/escapepod/media.libsyn.com/media/escapepod/EP166_SomethingDreamingGame.mp3)
-
Dude! I forgot it was Friday! Now I'm at work, and I need to do this the hard way...
-
I really liked this one. It reminded me of some other cool stuff in fantasy / sci-fi: Pan's Labyrinth (are the girl's visions real or not?), Robert Chas Wilson's "Blind Lake", and that STNG episode where Picard gets knocked out by a beam from something they find floating in space and Picard "lives" for a bit in the extinct civilization. One of my fav STNG episodes. Anyway, neat episode this week. I was a little unsure about it at first but when the quantum computer implant and aliens showed up I was hooked.
-
This was a good story, and well read as always by Ms. Lafferty. While the experimental-medical-procedure-with-unexpected-side-effects is hardly a new theme, this story pulled it off in a fun and refreshing new way.
I only have two criticisms, if they're even that:
I initially had trouble pinning down Tara's age (I may have missed an early mention of her actual age). With the reference to her being too old for a baby seat, but too young to sit in the front seat I thought she was five or six, not ten. This may be because I'm not totally up on exactly how old kids have to be before they can stop needing baby seats (I know it's an obnoxiously old age now compared to when I was a kid).
I did not understand the shift in POV during the cafeteria scene, why it suddenly changed from "Tara and I" to "Tara and Mom". I know there were some references in that scene that only Tara and an omnipotent 3rd person could know, but it still seemed somewhat jarring compared to the other POV shifts in the story which all seemed more necessary.
Between here and Star Ship Sofa, I'm really beginning to like Bear's stories. I shall probably have to go get her book (and Playing for Keeps)
-
The reading was good. I like how Mur only slightly changes the characters' voices and you still know who she's talking about.
I also really liked the story. As I'd said in the "Timeline" commentary, I'm not opposed to Elizabeth Bear, just hadn't liked that story. Well, this one vindicates what I have said -- I like her writing.
I also like the writing because it vindicates my own style; I write similar to Bear in that I have a lot of stuff between pieces of dialogue. I'm not saying I'm as good as her (because I'm not; at least, I wouldn't say so; YMMV) but the fact that she can sell stories written this way means that, hopefully, I'll be able to sell stories written like that.
However, those stories don't lend themselves to audio, because there's so much going between each piece of dialogue that sometimes I forget what I've heard. But maybe that's just me.
Anyway, two thumbs up from me.
-
I enjoyed this story although I hit a couple snags that I was wondering if anyone else experienced.
First of all, I loved "Tideline" ... it was my favorite of the Hugo Nominees played on "Escape Pod".
This story, however, lost me at two points:
#1. Why did the experienced Psychiatrist of a mother suddenly seem to believe her child and make the decision to stop the doctor from performing the Heimlich maneuver? That seems very out-of-character for a grown professional who, throughout the whole story, is completely rational about her daughter's experiences, not believing -for an instant- that she was really in contact with alien life.
#2. We are constantly told how clever the daughter is (and I suppose this is to justify the utilization of the grape to suffocate herself once she was under constant care) but I don't think we were ever shown just how clever (or dedicated to her alien friend) she was. I kept thinking, "Wow, that's trickery on a level most adults can't achieve; I wish I'd known she was capable of that kind of deception before she pulled it off..."
Those two points said, I enjoyed this story. Autoerotic Asphyxiation is definitely not a topic I'd ever expect to be put forth in a story about children and teens, although that may say more about my insular nature than anything else. It was a great strength of the story that while this idea was creepy to me, it engaged me in a way that had me concerned and caring about all involved. It never seemed unrealistic (in terms of the act, itself) and, rather, pulled me in to wish I could intercede and help get this child help.
The best part about the story, however, was how terrifying it was for the mother. Can you imagine a child you are responsible for -ANY child- having that kind of personal power and willfullness to do something potentially lethal? If that were me, I'd be on pins and needles for YEARS praying that when I wasn't looking the kid wouldn't accidentally hurt him or herself. That was terrifying and deeply personal. My congratulations to the author on that point; it drove home the personal humanity of the story.
Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)
-
I'm new here. Hi everybody.
First, I thought this was a great story. The various elements were brought together into a beautiful, seamless whole.
Second, I noticed we have here a bright, precocious girl joining a giant catapillar in a tunnel--oh, and the size of a doorway is noteworthy: it's reminiscent of Alice In Wonderland. I wonder if that was conscious or subconscious.
Finally, I wonder if there is any real reason to suppose this asphyxiation is erotic. I can remember a fainting game being popular with my friends very briefly in 4th grade. A kid would hyperventilate, then hold his breath. Passing out and weird dreams were the result. It was a thrill that got old soon, and it sure had nothing to do with anything sexual. (And no, I also don't recommend anyone give it a try!)
-
I think Steve has been waiting for 166 episodes to say "Don't try this at home!"
-
First off, welcome Fredoshphere!
#1. Why did the experienced Psychiatrist of a mother suddenly seem to believe her child and make the decision to stop the doctor from performing the Heimlich maneuver? That seems very out-of-character for a grown professional who, throughout the whole story, is completely rational about her daughter's experiences, not believing -for an instant- that she was really in contact with alien life.
I didn't think the mother believed her daughter was really speaking with an alien at this point - she did know, however, that her daughter was going to keep on trying to keep herself "under" longer and longer, and made the decision that it was better to let it happen while she was there to help than some other way. At least that was my interpretation. And kudos for Elizabeth Bear on this scene. It kept me on the edge of my seat, even as I though 'there's no way I could have stopped the doctor from clearing my child's airway.' But if any parent could, this one could, as is made clear throughout the story.
Enjoyed this one, another winner from this author as far as I am concerned. Even if I didn't quite get how it all was supposed to work exactly.
-
It reminded me of...that STNG episode where Picard gets knocked out by a beam from something they find floating in space and Picard "lives" for a bit in the extinct civilization. One of my fav STNG episodes.
That is exactly what flashed into my mind as soon as "Albert" revealed its intentions. Yes, a great ST:TNG episode.
Why did the experienced Psychiatrist of a mother suddenly seem to believe her child and make the decision to stop the doctor from performing the Heimlich maneuver? That seems very out-of-character for a grown professional who, throughout the whole story, is completely rational about her daughter's experiences, not believing -for an instant- that she was really in contact with alien life.
Both the mother and the doctor waited to dislodge the grape and let Tara breathe. I cringed when I heard the words: "Please, let Tara talk to Albert". It ruined the credibility that had been developed for the mother and the doctor. It would have been better to have let Tara's plan have worked despite all of their efforts to revive her. The impact would have been more powerful; instead it was kind of sappy.
This just in: (while I was writing)
I didn't think the mother believed her daughter was really speaking with an alien at this point - she did know, however, that her daughter was going to keep on trying to keep herself "under" longer and longer, and made the decision that it was better to let it happen while she was there to help than some other way. At least that was my interpretation. And kudos for Elizabeth Bear on this scene. It kept me on the edge of my seat, even as I though 'there's no way I could have stopped the doctor from clearing my child's airway.' But if any parent could, this one could, as is made clear throughout the story.
Okay, I could go with that, but, if that was truly the motivation, it should have been clearly laid out that way, and the "let her talk to Albert" line should have been removed.
Anyway, I do want to make it clear that I liked the story as a whole. Ms. Bear pulled obscure elements together to craft an intriquing tale.
----------------------------------------
Sideline:
With the reference to her being too old for a baby seat, but too young to sit in the front seat I thought she was five or six, not ten. This may be because I'm not totally up on exactly how old kids have to be before they can stop needing baby seats (I know it's an obnoxiously old age now compared to when I was a kid).
Although I understand the concern and I want my kids to be safe, the child seat laws can be frustrating. Depending on where you live, the laws can be based on age, weight, height, or any conmbination of those.
On the other side of the spectrum, I remember seeing an old Popular Mechanics magazine from the '50's where they had plans to build a cushioned platform that would fit on the backseat floor of a station wagon so that when you applied your brakes, your kids wouldn't topple to the floor, but merely roll onto the cushion. Ha Ha. What Fun. I guess we've come a long way since then.
-
On the other side of the spectrum, I remember seeing an old Popular Mechanics magazine from the '50's where they had plans to build a cushioned platform that would fit on the backseat floor of a station wagon so that when you applied your brakes, your kids wouldn't topple to the floor, but merely roll onto the cushion. Ha Ha. What Fun. I guess we've come a long way since then.
Wasn't that also about the same time they developed the notion that hiding under your desk was a good strategy for surviving a nuclear strike?
-
imaginary friend week on escape artists!
tiny, tall or chitinous; only one person sees them and we can only wonder at their motives (unless you're listening to the horror podcast. that's pretty much all the foreshadowing you need).
the extra bit of scientific rigour in this story was much appreciated. it hasn't been escape pod's thing but i'd like to see more of it.
-
I certainly don't subscribe to the mundane sci-fi school of thought that Steve skewered a year or so ago, but I'm not sure if you can really make the "rigor" case for this story. The physicians seemed a little too eager to accept that the daughter really was receiving transmissions from aliens. More to the point, even if the brain is capable of processing large amounts of data quickly as they posit, you still run into the problem that Tara is interacting with the transmissions from the aliens. If she was just receiving the transmissions that would be one thing, but she's teaching Albert her language and holding down a conversation with him. Assuming the aliens aren't hanging out on Mars, that conversation would take centuries at best. I'm not saying its impossible that the Aliens have found some way to beat the limitation that in physics we like to call "c," but if they have it kind of makes the whole implant element of the story a little silly. If it's picking up waves of radiation of any sort, those waves had to originate somewhere and then travel at a constant speed that obeys the laws of physics.
And that's all fine. Like Steve said before, if science fiction has to abide by the known tenets of science that would seriously impoverish the genre. But I think that a special sort of praise should be reserved for science fiction that has the ambition to try. This piece could have tried to explain how interstellar conversations could happen in real time, but that would probably have detracted from the pace and tone. It's hard to make hard science compelling in fictive form and "The Something-Dreaming Game," though a solid piece of story-telling, doesn't really aspire to meet that challenge.
-
Schreiber - google "quantum entanglement" and "quantum teleportation" - those are the bits of real science Bear is using to support her story (and why we kept hearing that the device in Tara's head was a "quantum computer." (And, yeah, we don't think that they work quite like that - but it's IMO closer to being realistic than, say, hyperspace).
I am, of course, perfectly happy to read stories with hyperspace in it - but given that there's not much evidence that that's possible, it is nice to see stories that: (1) don't use hyperspace or similar mechanisms; but (2) still provide for a means of alien contact.
-
maybe rigor isn't quite the right word. the stories we get on escape pod very rarely dip into anything that would be called hard sf, usually they just establish what a tech does without giving any page space to how. and this is fine; i wouldn't want any huge changes made but it's nice to get that 'ah, neat!' moment now and again. right now i can't think of another episode that's given me that moment.
the psychiatrist's discussion of quantum entanglement was brief but sufficient. it established that the chip's processor could have a connection to remote particles without any sort of electromagnetic radiation. this combined with the two-way communication between the processor and Tara's nervous system very neatly created sufficient circumstances for a type of telepathy. i thought of the chip as an antenna and Tara interpreting the signal. this way the information dump could go directly into the chip, it didn't have to go through Tara at all.
edit: i wrote it, gonna post it. even if its already been said. =)
-
What I thought was best with this story was the characterization of the child. I work with kids that age, and even if the circumstances were fantastic, her behavior and dialogue and reactions felt really real.
-
Schreiber - google "quantum entanglement" and "quantum teleportation" - those are the bits of real science Bear is using to support her story (and why we kept hearing that the device in Tara's head was a "quantum computer." (And, yeah, we don't think that they work quite like that - but it's IMO closer to being realistic than, say, hyperspace).
So far as I was aware, the doctor was saying that these experiences were occurring because Tara's implant was quantumly entangled with the other implants. That Albert was using a computer that had been made from the same Bose-Einstein condensate as Tara's implant seems unlikely at best.
However, all of this was in a conversation between two people who didn't have advanced physics degrees, and didn't have any real idea as to how quantum computers actually function, so I don't imagine it was intended to be taken as a real explanation. Especially as it's an explanation for how Albert isn't actually real, and it's strongly implied that he is.
-
I liked it. Strange. But I liked it.
As for the way Albert was talking to her... we don't know the theory put forward was correct; that it was connected to the condinsate, its just what they came up with. So it is enough for us to get to grips with, but we don't know its the truth. I can't explain the doctor, but the mother seemed to be grasping at straws, and she knew it.
As for the mother stopping the doctor helping her daughter; this didn't break character for me. She desperatly wanted to believe that her daughter was not crazy, no matter how crazy some actions seemed. She wanted to believe in her daughter beyond everything rational that she knew. It was a gut instinct move. Almost an act of passion.
Her instincual mind was in 2 totally different places and it took a while for them to resolve into helping the daughter breathe with the help of logic.
The only part that messed with me was how easily the doctor accepted the mothers explanations. I've seen scrubs, I know that doctors know doctors make the worst parents because they know the bad stuff that can happen. Also they know kids lie, fib and many other ways of hiding stuff or distorting the truth; so I don't see why they accepted what the kid said as true.
As for...
It reminded me of...that STNG episode where Picard gets knocked out by a beam from something they find floating in space and Picard "lives" for a bit in the extinct civilization. One of my fav STNG episodes.
It is one of the best eps... but its Patrick Stewart acting everyone else off the screen, showing the normal crew he is actually a serious actor, and can prove it.
but the story was very similar to that...
I realise what it felt like though... an X files episode. But the end of it where they show you everything, and it all comes together...
I could see this story make to be another hour longer with the FBI investigating the strange things this girl can do and create. And what others on the trial may be able to do... <_< but then you know... people may have to be presecuted for you know... letting the kid choke...
I don't know. I listened to it at work... I was in a strange mood... maybe it's just me
-
I loved this one, especially the characterization was spot on. And the reading was very good as usual.
But as I read through previous posts I was wondering why nobody seemed to really pick up on the creepyness of CHILDREN STRANGLING THEMSELVES. Is it just me and my (unfortunately unfulfilled or rather 'lacking-an-outlet-and-therefore-being-oversensitive-at-the-moment') mothering instinct that found it extremely *cringeworthy*. It made me incredibly uncomfortable to hear about the children's autoerotic asphyxiation, not the fact that children display autoerotic behaviors, we know it is a major part of a child's development and how parents and other people react can shape the child's attitude towards sex etc. etc. (makes me wonder how parents actually deal with it, but that is a different discussion) ... what I really struggled with is that in this case the game is so NOT a game... one that leads to children loosing control and end up dying.
Creepy. .... but good. (We do love a bit of creepyness in our stories, don't we.)
-
The only part that messed with me was how easily the doctor accepted the mothers explanations. I've seen scrubs, I know that doctors know doctors make the worst parents because they know the bad stuff that can happen. Also they know kids lie, fib and many other ways of hiding stuff or distorting the truth; so I don't see why they accepted what the kid said as true.
I think that was covered by the doctor's line about 'Something might be wrong with the implants, or right.' Then she goes on to theorize about the functional telepathy. Who wouldn't want to be the discoverer of a device that can functionally link minds? Also, she's a doctor so she knows it takes 3-4 minutes with out oxygen for brain damage to occur, and they were only talking about a matter of seconds.
I realise what it felt like though... an X files episode.
Know why else it felt like an x-files episode?
Because Agent Mulder is supposed to die from autoerotic asphyxiation (http://x-files.wikia.com/wiki/Autoerotic_asphyxiation).
-
But as I read through previous posts I was wondering why nobody seemed to really pick up on the creepyness of CHILDREN STRANGLING THEMSELVES. Is it just me and my (unfortunately unfulfilled or rather 'lacking-an-outlet-and-therefore-being-oversensitive-at-the-moment') mothering instinct that found it extremely *cringeworthy*. It made me incredibly uncomfortable to hear about the children's autoerotic asphyxiation, not the fact that children display autoerotic behaviors, we know it is a major part of a child's development and how parents and other people react can shape the child's attitude towards sex etc. etc. (makes me wonder how parents actually deal with it, but that is a different discussion) ... what I really struggled with is that in this case the game is so NOT a game... one that leads to children loosing control and end up dying.
The narrator treated it as something that all kids did, including herself. Because, to the best of my knowledge, most if not all kids do do it... not for the erotic aspect at Tara's age, but because of the drug-like effect it has. IMO.
-
ok I do not post often here. But i have been Listening for a long time.
This is the first and only Escape Pod I have ever turned off.
THIS STORY FREAKED ME THE FUCK OUT <sorry for the cursing> 2 mins in to this story i was like OMG and just turn it off.
-
ok I do not post often here. But i have been Listening for a long time.
This is the first and only Escape Pod I have ever turned off.
THIS STORY FREAKED ME THE FUCK OUT <sorry for the cursing> 2 mins in to this story i was like OMG and just turn it off.
One person who thinks it should have been on PP.
-
But as I read through previous posts I was wondering why nobody seemed to really pick up on the creepyness of CHILDREN STRANGLING THEMSELVES. Is it just me and my (unfortunately unfulfilled or rather 'lacking-an-outlet-and-therefore-being-oversensitive-at-the-moment') mothering instinct that found it extremely *cringeworthy*. It made me incredibly uncomfortable to hear about the children's autoerotic asphyxiation, not the fact that children display autoerotic behaviors, we know it is a major part of a child's development and how parents and other people react can shape the child's attitude towards sex etc. etc. (makes me wonder how parents actually deal with it, but that is a different discussion) ... what I really struggled with is that in this case the game is so NOT a game... one that leads to children loosing control and end up dying.
The narrator treated it as something that all kids did, including herself. Because, to the best of my knowledge, most if not all kids do do it... not for the erotic aspect at Tara's age, but because of the drug-like effect it has. IMO.
Really? OMG, that is so scary, and to be honest I never heard of it. I doubt that I did it when I was a child and none of my friends who have kids ever mentioned something like this. I am thinking of a friend's son who is 9, I think, and not very responsible at all, I could imagine him in his youthful enthusiasm killing himself by accident, overdoing it trying to increase the effect with every attempt, passing out and losing control over his means of strangulation.
ALL (or maybe most) kids strangling themselves on a regular basis to get a kick out of it ? Well, even if this is true it does not make it less of a cause for concern IMO and I don't think it should be taken as a 'part of being a kid'.
-
ok I do not post often here. But i have been Listening for a long time.
This is the first and only Escape Pod I have ever turned off.
THIS STORY FREAKED ME THE FUCK OUT <sorry for the cursing> 2 mins in to this story i was like OMG and just turn it off.
One person who thinks it should have been on PP.
Nope I listen to PP to nothing there has ever creeped on that come look at my nickname that is my Real life nickname I got it cause I'm the one that does the creeping out of people all the time. I think maybe it was cause i have kids this aged in my house that are around the same age as the feel of the kids at the start of the story. that tied to the fact that i Tried this a few times as a Teenager I knew how bad this could get. I do not know what it was to put a finger on it.... but this one gets a golf clap for Creeping out a low level master of creepy
PS
OH I think cuddlebug nailed
-
Full disclosure: This went through my school when I was in fourth grade or so. I tried it once. I didn't get any big euphoric experience or anything.
-
Because, to the best of my knowledge, most if not all kids do do it.
I think this is overstating the case. There don't seem to be any solid numbers about this that I can find, but I'd be surprised if it's above 50%.
Edit: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fainting_game)
-
Oh Steve Big Thank you for the no kids Warning. I sometimes let my 9 year Listen and Really Glad that warning was there
-
Because, to the best of my knowledge, most if not all kids do do it.
I think this is overstating the case. There don't seem to be any solid numbers about this that I can find, but I'd be surprised if it's above 50%.
Edit: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fainting_game)
Perhaps I should've said "have tried it at least once."
Stories we did on this last year (during sweeps, naturally):
http://www.11alive.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=92487
http://www.11alive.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=92567
Full disclosure: I did try it once or twice, but it was more painful than anything. No euphoria. I'll stick to drugs, thank you. ;D
-
I remember kids talking about playing "light as a feather, stiff as a board" or something like that. I think it was this same thing.
I never did that, but as a kid, to make my friends laugh, I did used to tense up really hard and push all the blood to my head to make my face turn deep red. Once I did this for too long or something and felt tingly and kind of out of it, but I didn't actually pass out.
-
Because, to the best of my knowledge, most if not all kids do do it
I very much doubt that. Like cuddlebug, I never did it and never knew anybody who did. wintermute's estimated 50% seems quite high; I'd be surprised if it's over half that.
-
Because, to the best of my knowledge, most if not all kids do do it
I very much doubt that. Like cuddlebug, I never did it and never knew anybody who did. wintermute's estimated 50% seems quite high; I'd be surprised if it's over half that.
Yeah, that 50% was more based on the use of the "most" than my own guesstimate (does that deserve to be a word?), which would be significantly lower.
Perhaps I should've said "have tried it at least once."
Stories we did on this last year (during sweeps, naturally):
http://www.11alive.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=92487
http://www.11alive.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=92567
OK, so we have two fatalities in a city of 5 million. Neither story gives any indication of how widesoread the game is; no "we interviewed 50 students in this school and 40 of them said they'd tried it at least once", for example. Given that this is an incredibly dangerous thing to do, the fact that single deaths are so newsworthy (in the way that fatal car crashes aren't) leads me to suspect that it's really not that common. True, a fair number of cases are probably misidentified as less sensational forms of choking, but it just seems unlikely that tens of millions of kids do this, and even "safety advocates" are unwilling to suggest that there might be more than a thousand deaths from it every year.
If you're right, then the choking game is safer than riding a horse, and I find that hard to believe.
Full disclosure: I never even heard of this until I was 10 years out of school. I went to school in Britain, which is a possible explanation, but it was a public school with a catchment area covering several very bad neighbourhoods; if it was known at all in Britain, that's exactly where I'd expect it to be seen.
-
I remember kids talking about playing "light as a feather, stiff as a board" or something like that. I think it was this same thing.
No, I actually did that in Physics class in 8th grade... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_as_a_feather_stiff_as_a_board
-
Because, to the best of my knowledge, most if not all kids do do it
I very much doubt that. Like cuddlebug, I never did it and never knew anybody who did. wintermute's estimated 50% seems quite high; I'd be surprised if it's over half that.
Yeah, that 50% was more based on the use of the "most" than my own guesstimate (does that deserve to be a word?), which would be significantly lower.
Perhaps I should've said "have tried it at least once."
Stories we did on this last year (during sweeps, naturally):
http://www.11alive.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=92487
http://www.11alive.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=92567
OK, so we have two fatalities in a city of 5 million. Neither story gives any indication of how widesoread the game is; no "we interviewed 50 students in this school and 40 of them said they'd tried it at least once", for example. Given that this is an incredibly dangerous thing to do, the fact that single deaths are so newsworthy (in the way that fatal car crashes aren't) leads me to suspect that it's really not that common. True, a fair number of cases are probably misidentified as less sensational forms of choking, but it just seems unlikely that tens of millions of kids do this, and even "safety advocates" are unwilling to suggest that there might be more than a thousand deaths from it every year.
I don't know; I'm not the reporter. But apparently when she was pitching the story she was under the impression a LOT of kids do it.
-
I don't know; I'm not the reporter. But apparently when she was pitching the story she was under the impression a LOT of kids do it.
Or it's just more of the sensationalistic journalism that seems to be prevalent these days, particularly during "sweeps" periods.
The Choking Game appeals to some kids because they get a drug-free high or buzz by choking themselves to the brink of unconsciousness so oxygen rushes back to the brain.
Marijuana is a lot safer, trust me ;D
-
I still say there's no reason to call it autoerotic asphyxiation. Autoerotic is not a synonym for "pleasurable" or "stimulating." I mean, no one calls smoking pot "autoerotic foliage combustion" and no one calls listening to Escape Pod "autoerotic aural stimulation."
(Although, knowing this crowd, I half expect to be told that y'all really do call Escape Pod "autoerotic aural stimulation.")
-
I still say there's no reason to call it autoerotic asphyxiation. Autoerotic is not a synonym for "pleasurable" or "stimulating." I mean, no one calls
Agreed. I thought actual masturbation had to be involved in order to qualify it as "autoerotic" asphyxiation.
There's also the non-auto type which involves strangling/being strangled by one's sex partner, as I've seen in the films Rising Sun and In the Realm of the Senses.
-
OK, so we have two fatalities in a city of 5 million. Neither story gives any indication of how widesoread the game is; no "we interviewed 50 students in this school and 40 of them said they'd tried it at least once", for example. Given that this is an incredibly dangerous thing to do, the fact that single deaths are so newsworthy (in the way that fatal car crashes aren't) leads me to suspect that it's really not that common.
If you're right, then the choking game is safer than riding a horse, and I find that hard to believe.
i suspect that if it gets popular somewhere then most of the kids at a school try it. this clustering of occurrences creates the impression that either everyone/no one tries it.
it went through my school when i was in grade eight. it was never something you did by yourself tho, you were always with friends so there wasn't the safety problems you'd think.
there wasn't much erotic about my one experience, just flashbacks and an odd resetting of perspective as i woke up. it took a little time to remember who & where i was so i would look at things so familiar i normally wouldn't notice them (my best friend must have hit a growth spurt, he looks like the oldest now. the girl i was crushing on? actually quite bossy. that sort of thing).
-
i suspect that if it gets popular somewhere then most of the kids at a school try it. this clustering of occurrences creates the impression that either everyone/no one tries it.
This sounds entirely right to me. It's very popular amongst a small subset of the population.
it went through my school when i was in grade eight. it was never something you did by yourself tho, you were always with friends so there wasn't the safety problems you'd think.
It reduces the risks, but doesn't remove them entirely. But if you're determined to do something like this, having people around would be a good thing.
-
About two weeks ago someone clued me in on Escape pod and Pod Castle. I have been listening to past episodes at work to help my day pass.
This one really made me think. About kids in general and why they do the things they do. Why I did the things I did as a kid. I thought it was really great. By the end I could even see all the colors in my head as she painted her "poem".
Really great stuff. I am glad that I came across this and look forward to listening to all the other stories.
-
This story was alright. The "Quantum Computer" thing hit me as a bit of an annoyance - I'm really tired of this getting thrown around as a magic tech. Quantum is the new "radioactive" - it can do whatever you need it to do for the story. But getting lost in those details really isn't the point, so I tried to get past it.
The kid did behave pretty realistically. I really liked that she wouldn't lie to her mother about her intentions. I was a lot like that as a kid - if I said it, you could trust it. If I thought I might not be able to hold to a promise, I didn't make one.
And for the record, when I was a kid, one of my best friend's sisters liked knocking people out after they had hyperventilated. I let her do it to me a couple of times. Nothing particularly erotic about it, and I certainly recognized at the time how dangerous it was. But, being a kid, I did it anyway.
-
Overall I liked the story.
But I felt I was promised a story about a rash of children who were mysteriously strangling themselves to death, and that this was somehow sexual in nature. I found this very original and disturbing. But then I was delivered a story about no-the-aliens-are-real, which is pretty well worn ground.
Pet peeve: Instead of saying, "you know I think it might be sexual," people who say "obviously it's sexual, and if you are skeptical then you are a Victorian prude." I think this is a minor quibble, but Bear does spend some of the most valuable real estate in the story making this point.
And to satisfy the informal poll: I did the thing where you hyperventilate, stand up quickly, then faint. It was going around a summer camp when I was about 10. Got a cool buzz, weird images that were dreams but not dreams, but nothing sexual.
-
Back in high-school I did something similar,(unintentionally). Attempting to see how long I could hold my breath, and timing myself with a stopwatch; somewhere around three and a half minutes, I must have passed out. No memory of the actual loss of consciousness, but coming back was definitely one of the most interesting experiences. Strangely enough; I am physically unable to get myself to hold the breath anywhere near that long anymore. Not that I ever plan to try again. Also, not a good idea to attempt standing up in a school hallway with a cement floor (broke my glasses, a front tooth, and needed about five stitches in the bottom lip).
-
About two weeks ago someone clued me in on Escape pod and Pod Castle. I have been listening to past episodes at work to help my day pass.
Welcome to the party! :)
-
Other than making my throat hurt while listening, it was a very interesting story.
-
Other than making my throat hurt while listening, it was a very interesting story.
you're doing it wrong
-
Other than making my throat hurt while listening, it was a very interesting story.
you're doing it wrong
That's definitely not how you listen. Try not wrapping the wire around your neck.
-
Other than making my throat hurt while listening, it was a very interesting story.
you're doing it wrong
That's definitely not how you listen. Try not wrapping the wire around your neck.
Oh.
;D
-
No memory of the actual loss of consciousness
Yeah, that's how being unconscious works.
-
About two weeks ago someone clued me in on Escape pod and Pod Castle. I have been listening to past episodes at work to help my day pass.
Welcome to the party! :)
Thanks! Great to be here!
-
Enjoyed this story. Nicely written, and well read.
On the hard SF-ness or otherwise of the quantum communication aspect, there's currently no known way to use quantum entanglement to send information faster than C. If such a method were discovered, physicists would have to rethink the whole theory of relativity. Entanglement does imply a weird sort of instantaneous transaction between the entangled particles, but this can only be used to send information in conjunction with a 'classical' (sub-C) information channel. A little on this here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement#Background).
My only other quibble: last I heard we weren't supposed to be calling it the Heimlich manoeuvre any more, following various allegations against Henry Heimlich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimlich).
-
One of the best I have heard since starting to listen about a month ago.
-
The narrator treated it as something that all kids did, including herself. Because, to the best of my knowledge, most if not all kids do do it... not for the erotic aspect at Tara's age, but because of the drug-like effect it has. IMO.
That's my recollection. It was much like the "spinning around to make yourself dizzy" kind of fun.
It didn't involve choking. More like hyperventilating and holding your breath while somebody else lifted you from behind as if they were performing the heimlich maneuver.
Could the author have conflated the two activities?
-
I'm really sorry, but I found the use of a very real and very dangerous "game" some children "play" for a story inappropriate on many levels.
Not interesting; not creepy; just wrong.
Why not leave it with the fibromyalgia brain-implant malfunctions and contacts aliens? That would seem like a great story.
Why make it into children trying to have a sexual euphoria by choking?
After all, you can't really have paraphilia until you have sexual desire, can you? The "pleasure" from asphyxiation is not sexual by itself; it's sexual activity while asphyxiation takes place that makes it erotic.
Plus, it seemed entirely unrealistic that a mother would react this way, or that a child who was "always careful" would choke herself with a grape to help "Albert" the alien who speaks in colours.
Not for children, indeed.
-
Not interesting; not creepy; just wrong.
I didn't find it inapropriate but...
Why not leave it with the fibromyalgia brain-implant malfunctions and contacts aliens? That would seem like a great story.
Why make it into children trying to have a sexual euphoria by choking?
I was wondering this the whole time. Maybe I missed something and someone could fill me in?
The erotic kid choking seemed to be an unnecessary component to the story, almost utilized for shock value.
-
Did I completely miss the eroticism element of the choking? I just don't remember it at all...
-
Did I completely miss the eroticism element of the choking? I just don't remember it at all...
i remember some time focused on it right near the beginning and then it was dropped for the actual story.
Why not leave it with the fibromyalgia brain-implant malfunctions and contacts aliens? That would seem like a great story.
The erotic kid choking seemed to be an unnecessary component to the story, almost utilized for shock value.
there wouldn't be the same sort of conflict if the choking element was replaced with an illness. the mother had to make the choice whether or not to let Tara risk herself, to make the adult decision that this was something worth risking her life for. Tara wasn't a victim of illness when she made her choice, she was proactively risking her life to accomplish something.
the emphasis on the erotic side of choking does seem out of place. especially since our society places such a strong taboo on anything that may sexualize children. this thread shows plainly that there are a lot of people that simply wont get past it no matter how it's used in the story. using an element that alienates so many people is an odd decision.
one possible reading is that it's the story's subtext. letting go of your children, letting them be adult and make adult decisions even if you can still see them as nine years old and know it will permanently change them.
-
I hadn't really heard about anything much like this before, certainly never involving kids. What I'd heard and seen before was a politician who suffocated during a sexual fantasy with an orange in his mouth, as well as seeing special devices called ball gags after that. As for the technology involved in this story, I think it's all just theoretical. Obviously the game described in this story is dangerous and I don't think the warnings are going to prevent some people from trying it for themselves.
-
Gosh golly I really liked this! I kept meaning to not like it! Especially since it's about the terrible breath play thing. However, gosh darn it, this worked wonderfully. The story was beautifully told by her high mighty-ness Mur. And I can't help but like the stories written by this author. Now I'm all perplexed and befuddled trying to figure out WHY I liked a story about a girl choking herself. DRAT it all.
-
It took me a while to get to this one, but I really enjoyed it. I just found the characters really sympathetic and got the feeling that though they were making hard choices - both the mother and the girl - they made the right ones. Even if they did carry both a risk and a price.
Did I completely miss the eroticism element of the choking? I just don't remember it at all...
The story itself wasn't about erotic choking. I think the point was - generally, a trend of autoerotic asphyxiation has started among young kids. Tara is introduced to it by other young kids, but while they do it for kicks, she discovers that it allows her to connect to aliens.
-
Did I completely miss the eroticism element of the choking? I just don't remember it at all...
The story itself wasn't about erotic choking. I think the point was - generally, a trend of autoerotic asphyxiation has started among young kids.
Autoerotic asphyxiation without an erotic component is just "asphyxiation".
-
I also loved the story but am still confused as to why the asphyxiation was
EROTIC rather than EROGENOUS. Sorry if I am being pedantic - but I work as a Psychologist and like to get such facts straight especially when they concern children!
There's no suggestion in the story that asphyxia leads to specific sexual arousal rather than a non-specific physical pleasure (unless I missed something more subtle regarding the relationship between the alien and the child?). Simply because asphyxia may heighten sexual pleasure doesn't mean that its effects are specific to erotic activities. The lack of oxygen supply to the brain may just give a nice warm fuzzy feeling which supplements a wide range of pleasure reactions ... but of course, it is not healthy, not recommended and certainly not something to be tried alone!
-
I hadn't really heard about anything much like this before, certainly never involving kids. What I'd heard and seen before was a politician who suffocated during a sexual fantasy with an orange in his mouth, as well as seeing special devices called ball gags after that.
A ball gag isn't meant to suffocate the wearer, only to silence him or her. But if the nasal passage were blocked as well, it would have that effect.
-
Did I completely miss the eroticism element of the choking? I just don't remember it at all...
The story itself wasn't about erotic choking. I think the point was - generally, a trend of autoerotic asphyxiation has started among young kids.
Autoerotic asphyxiation without an erotic component is just "asphyxiation".
Um, no, Autoerotic asphyxiation without an erotic component is auto-asphyxiation (as opposed to asphyxiation by others or by accident).
There's no suggestion in the story that asphyxia leads to specific sexual arousal rather than a non-specific physical pleasure (unless I missed something more subtle regarding the relationship between the alien and the child?). Simply because asphyxia may heighten sexual pleasure doesn't mean that its effects are specific to erotic activities. The lack of oxygen supply to the brain may just give a nice warm fuzzy feeling which supplements a wide range of pleasure reactions ... but of course, it is not healthy, not recommended and certainly not something to be tried alone!
I'm not sure how you can say there's no suggestion in the story, given that the first few sentences are a pretty explicit claim by the mother (who is a psychiatrist) that the general trend is motivated by erotic pleasure. It later turns out that she is wrong as far as her own daughter's motivation for self-choking, but the issue of whether she is right or wrong about the trend in general is left unaddressed.
-
I thought it was a very interesting story and i liked it, but i think the ending made it a little too 'safe'.
The whole concept of kids strangling themselves is extremely scary and in the story it was justified in that aliens used it to communicate to this girl, this also made the mother and doctor to seem very negligent, i cannot imagine how they would think it was ok to let the girl just choke.
I know this is just is story and not a moral message, but i kinda think it should have been a message, instead of just saying "hey kids are trying to kill themselves and it's ok because they might be communicating with aliens", especially considering that according to responses in this thread, that 'game' is more common than i thought
-
Obviously the game described in this story is dangerous and I don't think the warnings are going to prevent some people from trying it for themselves.
I think Steve (and by extension Elizabeth Bear) has presented this story for an audience that's primed for disturbing material. By that I mean, we know what we're getting into. It is POSSIBLE, but not AS likely, that someone would just pick up this story either in print or audio form, listen to it, and try to contact aliens. For the most part, the literary SF/F/H consumer is intelligent enough to not do this without first researching all the risks. (Hey, if you're into autoerotic asphixiation or any form of asphyxiation during sex, whatever you choose to do consensually with your partner is your business.)
I would be more concerned with someone emulating the scene in "The Dark Knight" when Batman rides the BatCycle up against the wall and turns it for quick braking. I'm sure someone in the next couple of weeks will end up in the hospital from THAT.
-
I'm not sure how you can say there's no suggestion in the story, given that the first few sentences are a pretty explicit claim by the mother (who is a psychiatrist) that the general trend is motivated by erotic pleasure. It later turns out that she is wrong as far as her own daughter's motivation for self-choking, but the issue of whether she is right or wrong about the trend in general is left unaddressed.
The mother says in the story that she doesn't specialize in child psychiatry, so I think we can forgive that unreliable aspect of her narration. But OTOH -- this next bit is a little squicky so I'm going to put it in white -- I think the narrator may be not only remembering her own experiences with the game but her own self-exploration at Tara's age. By extension, I think Bear is hearkening back to the days of childhood and finding out about all the useful and interesting things a body can do/feel. Some people feel them through choking, some through alcohol or other drugs, some through physical touching. Maybe you (vosotros) didn't choke yourself regularly, but replace "choking" with the adult behavior you indulged in well before you were capable of making the informed decision to do or not to do, and it makes a little sense.
Pardon my ramble. I'm thinking specifically as I write it about the scene in "The World on Blood" where Lourdes explains to Whistler about her own explorations leading up to discovering that she's a vampire, which gives you an idea of where I'm coming from.
-
Obviously the game described in this story is dangerous and I don't think the warnings are going to prevent some people from trying it for themselves.
I think Steve (and by extension Elizabeth Bear) has presented this story for an audience that's primed for disturbing material. By that I mean, we know what we're getting into. It is POSSIBLE, but not AS likely, that someone would just pick up this story either in print or audio form, listen to it, and try to contact aliens. For the most part, the literary SF/F/H consumer is intelligent enough to not do this without first researching all the risks. (Hey, if you're into autoerotic asphixiation or any form of asphyxiation during sex, whatever you choose to do consensually with your partner is your business.)
I would be more concerned with someone emulating the scene in "The Dark Knight" when Batman rides the BatCycle up against the wall and turns it for quick braking. I'm sure someone in the next couple of weeks will end up in the hospital from THAT.
"Think of it as evolution in action." -- Niven & Pournelle, Oath of Fealty
-
This is my first post on the message boards.
I thought the way Mur read the story seemed to emphasize the leap of faith the mother places in the daughter at the climax more than other people who have commented on this thread have mentioned.
I thought the story was great, but I agreed with those who feel the asphyxiation segment of the story was unnecessary.
The device to drive the plot (autoerotic asphyxiation) reminded me of the novel "The Terminal Man" by Michael Crichton, where someone with a neurological disorder that results in blackouts accompanied by frenzied violence is given a neural implant to short circuit the neurological thunderstorm in his brain that causes the blackouts.
They do so by using electrodes to stimulate the happiness and sense of well-being centers of the brain, as well as the sexual release center. Both the markers monitored by the device and the activation for the device are involuntary on the part of the patient.
And well everyone knows about the rats that starve to death when given the choice between food and activating sexual release electrodes implanted in their brains.
The end result is biology misusing technology to fulfill urges deep seeded in our very makeup for the advancement of the plot.
Now, activation of electrodes on the sexual pleasure centers can be argued as an even more undesirable action for a pre-teen than autoerotic asphyxiation.
But I think the idea that some tenant for the involuntary operations of biological beings results in the misuse or unconventional use of the neurological implant could have been a useful avenue to advance the plot, play up the mother's pivotal leap of faith and make people squirm less.
my $0.02.
-
This is my first post on the message boards.
Welcome to the party. :)
The device to drive the plot (autoerotic asphyxiation) reminded me of the novel "The Terminal Man" by Michael Crichton, where someone with a neurological disorder that results in blackouts accompanied by frenzied violence is given a neural implant to short circuit the neurological thunderstorm in his brain that causes the blackouts.
They do so by using electrodes to stimulate the happiness and sense of well-being centers of the brain, as well as the sexual release center. Both the markers monitored by the device and the activation for the device are involuntary on the part of the patient.
And well everyone knows about the rats that starve to death when given the choice between food and activating sexual release electrodes implanted in their brains.
The end result is biology misusing technology to fulfill urges deep seeded in our very makeup for the advancement of the plot.
Which in turn reminds me of Niven again, specifically the "droud" device used by Louis Wu in The Ringworld Engineers. It was a recreational device to directly stimulate the brain's pleasure center.
-
I don't know if its just me, or the stories Steve has been running, or what, but for nearly two months now, nothing that has aired on Escape Pod has really caught me enough to make it through the first 30 min, let alone the full episode. This story especially was a giant meh. I made it to the conversation in the car, and said "Ok, you know what, I have other things to listen to that are far more interesting" and turned it off. I guess it either stretched the limits to which I can suspend disbelief within a realistic setting, or wasn't fantastic enough for me to ignore the attempted realism.
I guess what I'm saying is that I just don't buy any of the premise of this story on any grounds, and as such it fell totally flat for me.
-
Welcome to the party. :)
Thanks!
Which in turn reminds me of Niven again, specifically the "droud" device used by Louis Wu in The Ringworld Engineers. It was a recreational device to directly stimulate the brain's pleasure center.
I haven't read much Niven. Mostly Neutron Star and the Mote in God's Eye.
Good stuff.
Given how much the people in the known space universe enjoy thier recreation, I can see him coming up with such a device.
-
Welcome to the party. :)
Thanks!
Which in turn reminds me of Niven again, specifically the "droud" device used by Louis Wu in The Ringworld Engineers. It was a recreational device to directly stimulate the brain's pleasure center.
I haven't read much Niven. Mostly Neutron Star and the Mote in God's Eye.
Good stuff.
Given how much the people in the known space universe enjoy thier recreation, I can see him coming up with such a device.
That was mostly in the early stages of Known Space, when we'd only gotten as far as the asteroid belt. Though a ranged version (known as a "tasp") appeared in one of the Ringworld novels.
-
That was mostly in the early stages of Known Space, when we'd only gotten as far as the asteroid belt. Though a ranged version (known as a "tasp") appeared in one of the Ringworld novels.
It was in Ringworld. Louis Wu got the "wirehead" habit later on after somebody used a tasp on him in the space between that and The Ringworld Engineers
-
It was in Ringworld. Louis Wu got the "wirehead" habit later on after somebody used a tasp on him in the space between that and The Ringworld Engineers
Ah, that sounds right. It's been a few years since I read Ringworld, but I go back to the Gil the ARM stories every so often.
I like a good science fiction detective story.
-
there wouldn't be the same sort of conflict if the choking element was replaced with an illness. the mother had to make the choice whether or not to let Tara risk herself, to make the adult decision that this was something worth risking her life for. Tara wasn't a victim of illness when she made her choice, she was proactively risking her life to accomplish something.
the emphasis on the erotic side of choking does seem out of place. especially since our society places such a strong taboo on anything that may sexualize children. this thread shows plainly that there are a lot of people that simply wont get past it no matter how it's used in the story. using an element that alienates so many people is an odd decision.
one possible reading is that it's the story's subtext. letting go of your children, letting them be adult and make adult decisions even if you can still see them as nine years old and know it will permanently change them.
I agree to a point. In retrospect, I wonder what the reception would have been like if Tara was drinking alcohol or doing drugs (other adult behaviours we are not comfortable seeing in children)? Or how about simply having sex? Why make it into something more extreme? Breath play, as a paraphilia among adults is, as I understand it, related to/classified with BDSM. Why did we need to go beyond "Tara is having sex/drinking/doing drugs to contact aliens and Mom is conflicted" to "Tara is unable to have sex, drink alcohol or do drugs, so she chokes herself to contact aliens and Mom is conflicted."
I would also note, popular culture has no problem sexualizing children, it has a problem being honest or consistent about its reaction to this depiction. As in: Britney Spears bumping and grinding like a stripper on stage is okay, but remaking Lolita is not.
Mod: Tried to clarify quoting
-
there wouldn't be the same sort of conflict if the choking element was replaced with an illness. the mother had to make the choice whether or not to let Tara risk herself, to make the adult decision that this was something worth risking her life for. Tara wasn't a victim of illness when she made her choice, she was proactively risking her life to accomplish something.
the emphasis on the erotic side of choking does seem out of place. especially since our society places such a strong taboo on anything that may sexualize children. this thread shows plainly that there are a lot of people that simply wont get past it no matter how it's used in the story. using an element that alienates so many people is an odd decision.
I disagree. If it was simply some involuntary biological reaction that was causing issues with the implant that caused blackouts and, as a side effect, contact with the alien, the choice to stop the daughter to save her health/life and whether to "power down" the device and risk the loss of the devices usefulness versus letting her continue and trust in her judgment would still be possible.
I'd like to point out that although I have come out claiming the autoerotic asphyxiation was an unnecessary part of the story, I do feel the need to proclaim that Elizabeth Bear made a wonderful piece of fiction and respect her right as the author to craft her story any way she chooses.
So, would anyone else say there are similarities in the changes in the personality and behavior of the daughter after the alien info dump and bene gesserit reverend mothers who go through the spice agony (another kind of massive info dump (and more))?
-
So, would anyone else say there are similarities in the changes in the personality and behavior of the daughter
I'm not 100% convinced that the daughter received an info dump. I think Bear intends that she did, but it's more likely that she never experienced an actual alien contact, and her weirdness at the end is the result of brain damage. Though the mother may prefer not to believe that.
I hear this story on a SF podcast so I think maybe she talked to aliens. But if I had heard it in real life there is no way I would believe that.
-
So, would anyone else say there are similarities in the changes in the personality and behavior of the daughter
I'm not 100% convinced that the daughter received an info dump. I think Bear intends that she did, but it's more likely that she never experienced an actual alien contact, and her weirdness at the end is the result of brain damage. Though the mother may prefer not to believe that.
I hear this story on a SF podcast so I think maybe she talked to aliens. But if I had heard it in real life there is no way I would believe that.
Damn man, you did it to me again. More than a week after I listen to a story, you come along and give me an entirely different perspective on the ending. Since the daughter hasn't started spouting great wisdom, there is nothing to directly contradict your reading of it.
-
So, would anyone else say there are similarities in the changes in the personality and behavior of the daughter
I'm not 100% convinced that the daughter received an info dump. I think Bear intends that she did, but it's more likely that she never experienced an actual alien contact, and her weirdness at the end is the result of brain damage. Though the mother may prefer not to believe that.
I hear this story on a SF podcast so I think maybe she talked to aliens. But if I had heard it in real life there is no way I would believe that.
The fact that the implant's memory was filled up with the equivalent of 25 Libraries of Congress (or whatever it was) is obviously intended to be proof that an alien society has downloaded everything they deemed important to her. But it could equally be a glitch in the table of contents.
-
the emphasis on the erotic side of choking does seem out of place. especially since our society places such a strong taboo on anything that may sexualize children.
I would also note, popular culture has no problem sexualizing children, it has a problem being honest or consistent about its reaction to this depiction. As in: Britney Spears bumping and grinding like a stripper on stage is okay, but remaking Lolita is not.
you make a valid distinction. american pop culture seems to be all right with underaged kids acting sexy so long as they claim that they're not actually having sex. i assume that you're talking about Spears seven or eight years past (showing your age a little =P), back when she was dressing like a schoolgirl and claiming chastity. it would have been more accurate me to say 'promote sexual activity' rather than 'sexualize'.
there wouldn't be the same sort of conflict if the choking element was replaced with an illness. the mother had to make the choice whether or not to let Tara risk herself, to make the adult decision that this was something worth risking her life for. Tara wasn't a victim of illness when she made her choice, she was proactively risking her life to accomplish something.
I disagree. If it was simply some involuntary biological reaction that was causing issues with the implant that caused blackouts and, as a side effect, contact with the alien, the choice to stop the daughter to save her health/life and whether to "power down" the device and risk the loss of the devices usefulness versus letting her continue and trust in her judgment would still be possible.
that may be a conflict but it isn't the same sort of conflict. there is a substantial difference to the story if Tara is a victim instead of actively risking herself.
I thought it was a very interesting story and i liked it, but i think the ending made it a little too 'safe'.
The whole concept of kids strangling themselves is extremely scary and in the story it was justified in that aliens used it to communicate to this girl, this also made the mother and doctor to seem very negligent, i cannot imagine how they would think it was ok to let the girl just choke.
I know this is just is story and not a moral message, but i kinda think it should have been a message, instead of just saying "hey kids are trying to kill themselves and it's ok because they might be communicating with aliens", especially considering that according to responses in this thread, that 'game' is more common than i thought
first of all, no one was trying to kill themselves. people were risking their lives.
mainly i'm responding because your position reoccurs repeatedly throughout this thread: Jillian and the doctor are acting negligently & irrationally. it kinda bugs me since they acted incredibly rationally. just real world rational not hollywood rational.
unsupported claims are discounted and mocked in the standard hollywood formula. it's a cheap way to build some outraged sympathy. these glasses let you see aliens? no way. there's a monster in the window behind me? i'm not gonna fall for that. you say that your friends were brutally devoured in the basement? good joke.
so, instead of taking ten seconds to put on the glasses or turn my head i'm gonna spend minutes on end acting stubborn and building audience resentment so that they feel like i deserve it when things inevitably turn against me.
in this story Tara is incredibly honest. when Jillian asked her about the fainting game the easiest thing Tara could have done is promise to stop and then do it behind her mother's back. instead she winds up under suicide watch because she refuses to tell a convenient lie. someone like that doesn't make up stories for attention, she really believes that something unusual is happening and Jillian trusts that.
when Tara is choking, Jillian has to overcome her emotional response in order to wait to revive her. she's giving Tara the chance to work out whatever issues she has. she doesn't have to beleive in aliens or telepathy or anything else except that Tara really wants to do this. the actual risk is minimal, a doctor has a very good idea how long someone can go without oxygen. just because it seems scary doesn't make it irrational or negligent.
-
...
the emphasis on the erotic side of choking does seem out of place. especially since our society places such a strong taboo on anything that may sexualize children. this thread shows plainly that there are a lot of people that simply wont get past it no matter how it's used in the story. using an element that alienates so many people is an odd decision.
one possible reading is that it's the story's subtext. letting go of your children, letting them be adult and make adult decisions even if you can still see them as nine years old and know it will permanently change them.
I agree to a point. In retrospect, I wonder what the reception would have been like if Tara was drinking alcohol or doing drugs (other adult behaviours we are not comfortable seeing in children)? Or how about simply having sex? Why make it into something more extreme? Breath play, as a paraphilia among adults is, as I understand it, related to/classified with BDSM. Why did we need to go beyond "Tara is having sex/drinking/doing drugs to contact aliens and Mom is conflicted" to "Tara is unable to have sex, drink alcohol or do drugs, so she chokes herself to contact aliens and Mom is conflicted."
I would also note, popular culture has no problem sexualizing children, it has a problem being honest or consistent about its reaction to this depiction. As in: Britney Spears bumping and grinding like a stripper on stage is okay, but remaking Lolita is not.
This is an excellent point and I do agree that teenagers in our society seem to be forced to conform to a very strong trend in sexualized behavior, including the language they use, the way they dress and the things they do, and it does not matter whether that is due to peer pressure, the media or a very natural development. But maybe I 'read' this story completely wrong, to my mind, or rather in my imagination, Tara could not be compared to these teenagers, and comparing Tara with Britney Spears (and I am glad JoeFitz is not exactly suggesting that) is just wrong. I saw her as a CHILD, eight or nine -or however many years old, and I personally saw nothing sexual about her, not even the kind of figure that Britney Spears already used to show off in her early career.
I guess this is a problem of definition, who qualifies as a CHILD and who is a teenager, which in my definition has a very strong sexual component to it. Tara, as I imagined her while listening to the story, had nothing sexual about her, and comparing her to other CHILDREN her age who use the 'Something-Dreaming-Game' for sexual pleasure did not make sense to me. Therefore, Tara was shown as the exception from the rule, since she used the game to communicate with aliens rather than to get some kind of pleasure out of it. So I for one was glad Elizabeth Bear did NOT write about a nine-year-old (? was that her age, can't remember) Tara having sex and doing drugs etc. for whatever reason. I still see childhood as somewhat sacred and if that makes me a prude then so be it, but when we are talking about a teenager at about say 14, well, then that is a different issue.
-
I guess this is a problem of definition, who qualifies as a CHILD and who is a teenager, which in my definition has a very strong sexual component to it. Tara, as I imagined her while listening to the story, had nothing sexual about her, and comparing her to other CHILDREN her age who use the 'Something-Dreaming-Game' for sexual pleasure did not make sense to me. Therefore, Tara was shown as the exception from the rule, since she used the game to communicate with aliens rather than to get some kind of pleasure out of it. So I for one was glad Elizabeth Bear did NOT write about a nine-year-old (? was that her age, can't remember) Tara having sex and doing drugs etc. for whatever reason. I still see childhood as somewhat sacred and if that makes me a prude then so be it, but when we are talking about a teenager at about say 14, well, then that is a different issue.
I'm not really sure about the motivation for the choking game in Tara's case. Her older friend taught it to her in the hospital. Tara did it "safely" at home. And she had contact with Albert but never was able to "stay" long enough. It's not clear to me that her motivation was the same over time.
-
I guess this is a problem of definition, who qualifies as a CHILD and who is a teenager, which in my definition has a very strong sexual component to it. Tara, as I imagined her while listening to the story, had nothing sexual about her, and comparing her to other CHILDREN her age who use the 'Something-Dreaming-Game' for sexual pleasure did not make sense to me. Therefore, Tara was shown as the exception from the rule, since she used the game to communicate with aliens rather than to get some kind of pleasure out of it. So I for one was glad Elizabeth Bear did NOT write about a nine-year-old (? was that her age, can't remember) Tara having sex and doing drugs etc. for whatever reason. I still see childhood as somewhat sacred and if that makes me a prude then so be it, but when we are talking about a teenager at about say 14, well, then that is a different issue.
I'm not really sure about the motivation for the choking game in Tara's case. Her older friend taught it to her in the hospital. Tara did it "safely" at home. And she had contact with Albert but never was able to "stay" long enough. It's not clear to me that her motivation was the same over time.
I think you can make a stronger statement than that - it's clear that the motivation was not the same, at least not the first time she did it. She couldn't have known about the alien at the time, so she must have been doing it for the same reason the other kids were - it was "fun".
That said, I don't think the children are doing anything *overtly* sexual - saying that children are getting a kick out of enjoying themselves that is partially or wholly sexual doesn't mean they understand the sexual element in it. Most of the children doing it probably know they enjoy it and don't have the experience or perspective necessary to know it's a sexual enjoyment.
But as the narrator said very early on, if you think children don't experience sexual pleasure until puberty (hell, most infants masturbate), or that they don't experiment with their sexuality, then you don't remember being a child.
-
So, would anyone else say there are similarities in the changes in the personality and behavior of the daughter
I'm not 100% convinced that the daughter received an info dump. I think Bear intends that she did, but it's more likely that she never experienced an actual alien contact, and her weirdness at the end is the result of brain damage. Though the mother may prefer not to believe that.
I hear this story on a SF podcast so I think maybe she talked to aliens. But if I had heard it in real life there is no way I would believe that.
Damn man, you did it to me again. More than a week after I listen to a story, you come along and give me an entirely different perspective on the ending. Since the daughter hasn't started spouting great wisdom, there is nothing to directly contradict your reading of it.
It's all part of my evil plan to make you ... well, I haven't worked it out that far yet. But somehow it leads to "profit." However...
The fact that the implant's memory was filled up with the equivalent of 25 Libraries of Congress (or whatever it was) is obviously intended to be proof that an alien society has downloaded everything they deemed important to her. But it could equally be a glitch in the table of contents.
I had missed this and I think Wintermute is right. Though it could be a glitch, I think Bear intends it to be very strong evidence that the kid was talking to aliens.
Sorry Russell, it seems my messing with your head was unwarranted this time. But I'll be back. Oh yes, my friend. I'll be back.
-
i assume that you're talking about Spears seven or eight years past (showing your age a little =P), back when she was dressing like a schoolgirl and claiming chastity.
Good thing I didn't use the Brooke Shields reference I had intended, then. ;)
-
unsupported claims are discounted and mocked in the standard hollywood formula. it's a cheap way to build some outraged sympathy. these glasses let you see aliens? no way. there's a monster in the window behind me? i'm not gonna fall for that. you say that your friends were brutally devoured in the basement? good joke.
This is a good point, but I actually think the opposite. Unsupported claims shouldn't necessarily be mocked, but they should be discounted. I think people in movies are too credulous. In your examples I would probably turn around and look out the window because the cost to me is very small, but the odds that the glasses are some kind of joke are way higher than seeing aliens. And there is no way I would believe someone's friends were devoured in the basement without a lot of solid evidence.
In this story we have a little girl who is depriving her brain of oxygen then claiming to see aliens. As I mentioned in an above post, I had a hard time believing the aliens were real in a science fiction story. So I agree that it seems like very risky behavior for a mother and a doctor to deliberately starve a child of oxygen in the hopes that she won't do it again. I don't remember if she said that this would be the last time she would try to communicate with Albert, but even if she did I don't think a mother and a doctor could watch a child choke herself any more than they could watch her drop acid.
And hey, even if the mother was 100% sure her little girl was talking with alien scientists, it is still very dangerous behavior. She wouldn't let her child spend time alone with a human being she doesn't know, much less an alien.
-
As for the mother stopping the doctor helping her daughter; this didn't break character for me. She desperatly wanted to believe that her daughter was not crazy, no matter how crazy some actions seemed. She wanted to believe in her daughter beyond everything rational that she knew. It was a gut instinct move. Almost an act of passion.
I like this explanation. My initial reaction (based on what I've always been told about a mother's protectiveness) was that stalling the Heimlich was really pushing suspension of disbelief. But other clues in the story reinforce the idea that Tara's mother may instinctively prefer to believe that her daughter is rational, principled and determined instead of hallucinating, contrary and addicted to oxygen deprivation. To save her daughter she's prepared to delay resuscitation and slightly increase the risk to her daughter's life.
I think that it is intended this way -- maybe it's just the audio form obscuring the hints, but I could have done with a slightly more explicit nudge towards this interpretation, because it's quite radical (for most readers, I imagine, not just me).
Overall, good story. I think the visceral reactions in this thread show why auto-asphyxiation added meaning that simple child-disease-victim scenarios don't carry.
-
ok I do not post often here. But i have been Listening for a long time.
This is the first and only Escape Pod I have ever turned off.
THIS STORY FREAKED ME THE FUCK OUT <sorry for the cursing> 2 mins in to this story i was like OMG and just turn it off.
I've been listening in short segments and haven't gotten very far. This has been an interesting discussion to read, but I won't be listening to the rest of the story. It's just way too disturbing to the mommy in me.
-
ok I do not post often here. But i have been Listening for a long time.
This is the first and only Escape Pod I have ever turned off.
THIS STORY FREAKED ME THE FUCK OUT <sorry for the cursing> 2 mins in to this story i was like OMG and just turn it off.
I've been listening in short segments and haven't gotten very far. This has been an interesting discussion to read, but I won't be listening to the rest of the story. It's just way too disturbing to the mommy in me.
Even though there have been a few stories I haven't liked at all, there isn't an Escape Pod or Podcastle yet that I haven't listened to from front to back. A story really has to be made of suck for me to abandon it.
-
unsupported claims are discounted and mocked in the standard hollywood formula. it's a cheap way to build some outraged sympathy. these glasses let you see aliens? no way. there's a monster in the window behind me? i'm not gonna fall for that. you say that your friends were brutally devoured in the basement? good joke.
This is a good point, but I actually think the opposite. Unsupported claims shouldn't necessarily be mocked, but they should be discounted. I think people in movies are too credulous. In your examples I would probably turn around and look out the window because the cost to me is very small, but the odds that the glasses are some kind of joke are way higher than seeing aliens. And there is no way I would believe someone's friends were devoured in the basement without a lot of solid evidence.
i wasn't quite clear. unsupported claims definitely shouldn't be accepted at face value but the person making the claim should be given a fair shake to make their case. dismissing them out of hand or (all too often in movies) actively working against them is a negligent & irrational act.
what exactly the fair shake should be depends both on the credibility of the person and the nature of the claim. this process is a common sense extension of scientific method & peer review which is why i have a tough time calling Jillian's actions irrational.
Roney did a reasonable job putting it in emotional terms:
To save her daughter she's prepared to delay resuscitation and slightly increase the risk to her daughter's life.
although that's a bit melodramatic. i didn't think that Jillian was particularly vested that Tara was actually talking to aliens, just willing to give her the chance to work things out while under medical supervision.
I don't remember if she said that this would be the last time she would try to communicate with Albert, but even if she did I don't think a mother and a doctor could watch a child choke herself any more than they could watch her drop acid.
how about running an electric current through her? if it would help her resolve self destructive issues and function in society?
And hey, even if the mother was 100% sure her little girl was talking with alien scientists, it is still very dangerous behavior. She wouldn't let her child spend time alone with a human being she doesn't know, much less an alien.
it would be a little tragic to deny your child's wish to be humanity's first contact ambassador because the unknown scares you. =)
-
it would be a little tragic to deny your child's wish to be humanity's first contact ambassador because the unknown scares you. =)
I know this has little to do with what you were gettiing at, but something that one line brought to my mind is the notion of parents' anxiety over their kids making frequent and unsupervised use of email, instant messaging, and such. More so if the parents are not as internet-savvy as their kids, other than what they learn from Fox News Infotainment. "What are they saying and reading, and who are they saying it to? School chums, or middle-aged perverts posing as kids?"
-
I know this has little to do with what you were gettiing at, but something that one line brought to my mind is the notion of parents' anxiety over their kids making frequent and unsupervised use of email, instant messaging, and such. More so if the parents are not as internet-savvy as their kids, other than what they learn from Fox News Infotainment. "What are they saying and reading, and who are they saying it to? School chums, or middle-aged perverts posing as kids aliens?"
Let's tie that back into the story ;)
-
I know this has little to do with what you were gettiing at, but something that one line brought to my mind is the notion of parents' anxiety over their kids making frequent and unsupervised use of email, instant messaging, and such. More so if the parents are not as internet-savvy as their kids, other than what they learn from Fox News Infotainment. "What are they saying and reading, and who are they saying it to? School chums, or middle-aged perverts posing as kids aliens?"
Let's tie that back into the story ;)
"Hello, Albert. Why don't you take a seat over there? So what were your plans here tonight alone with this young girl?"
"I was going to pass on the history of my people to her before I disappear."
"Is that so? That's not what you say in your chat logs here...."
-
So, would anyone else say there are similarities in the changes in the personality and behavior of the daughter after the alien info dump and bene gesserit reverend mothers who go through the spice agony (another kind of massive info dump (and more))?
I thought of Dune too. I've only read the first book, but the girl born near the end of that one made me think of this.
-
I'm very conflicted about this story. I like the quantum communication element, and the child being the ambassador to the aliens, the building of language through games in a child's mind.
But auto-asphyxiation just creeps me the hell out. Count me under those who'd never heard of it as a kid--and I had one friend who was into pretty much ANYTHING so I think if he'd heard about it he would've told me. The first I'd heard of it was probably around high school age on some cop show, where they find someone who's hanged themselves in the closet, but they learn that it was not a suicide but a botched autoerotic asphyxiation. Even for adults it made me shudder thinking of strangling yourself for pleasure, and even more so when it's kids. I don't know if it was common in general, but I sure never heard about it, so it's definitely not ALL kids and I really doubt that it's MOST kids either.
And, while the asphyxiation of the girl in the story did not appear to be erotic, the story began with a huge lecture about auto-erotic asphyxiation, so I just assumed throughout that it was the case--I didn't realize until this comment thread that the story never actually said that.
-
I thought of Dune too. I've only read the first book...
Lucky you. Recommend you leave it that way.