Escape Artists

Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Russell Nash on September 20, 2008, 11:45:51 AM

Title: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Russell Nash on September 20, 2008, 11:45:51 AM
EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth (http://escapepod.org/2008/09/20/ep176-how-the-world-became-quiet-a-post-human-creation-myth/)

By Rachel Swirsky (http://rachelswirsky.com/).
Read by Frank Key (of Hooting Yard (http://hootingyard.org/)).

Humans laid the foundation for the sixth apocalypse in much the same way they’d triggered the previous ones. Having recovered their ambition after the Apocalypse of Serotonin and rebuilt their populations after the Apocalypse of Grease, they once again embarked on their species’ long term goal to wreak as much havoc as possible on the environment through carelessness and boredom. This time, the trees protested. They devoured buildings, whipped wind into hurricanes between their branches, tangled men into their roots and devoured them as mulch. In retaliation, men chopped down trees, fire-bombed jungles, and released genetically engineered insects to devour tender shoots.

The pitched battle decimated civilians on both sides, but eventually — though infested and rootless — the trees overwhelmed their opposition. Mankind was forced to send its battered representatives to a sacred grove in the middle of the world’s oldest forest and beg for a treaty.


Rated PG. Contains war, invasion, exodus, mass extinction, religious revival, and a lot of mud.


Referenced Sites:
Resonance FM (http://resonancefm.com/)
Reality Break Podcast (http://realitybreakpodcast.com/)


(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://media.rawvoice.com/escapepod/media.libsyn.com/media/escapepod/EP176_HowTheWorldBecameQuiet.mp3)
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Darwinist on September 20, 2008, 03:27:35 PM
Meh.   Loved the idea and great narration as always by Frank Key but for me the story bogged down with all the talk of the droves of insect men.   I liked the ending, so I'm glad I stuck with the story.   

Why didn't the cockroach men worry more about sanitation when they controlled the earth?  Where were all the dung beetle men, on vacation with the sow bug men?
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: alllie on September 20, 2008, 04:11:34 PM
Well, err… aahhh… I hate to not like something by Podcastle’s wonderful Rachel Swirsky since I enjoy Podcastle so much (and Podcastle has been putting out lots more content lately, go check it out and aren’t all the pods great)…but I didn’t like it. I know it was done in the style of some of the old pulps but it just didn’t work for me. Every time I started to get into it (and here comes the protestation of “It’s not you. It’s me”) there would be a reference to the whaleMEN or cockroachMEN or butterflyMEN EVEN when the character was female and my feminism would buzz and I would twitch and grit my teeth and hate whoever wrote the story, even Rachel.

Yeah, it is me. But even so the reversion to an old style sexism kept me from having any chance of enjoying it.  How about whalePeople or cockroachPEOPLE or ButterflyHUMANS. Do we have to be reminded of the days when most men (the gender) didn’t consider women (the gender) human or equal or anything but slaves and brood mares and sex toys and maids?

Sorry.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: slic on September 21, 2008, 03:22:36 AM
Definitely agree, as Mr. Ely mentioned in his outro, that this was a stylistic story.  I loved the reading, and loved the idea of the great sweeping time spans.  Unfortunately, I didn't feel that the story really lived up to the idea.  It definitely dragged during the time of the insect people.

There were some really cool ideas (I loved the Crab people), but there were also a few of story points that just sent me right out of the story thinking "WTF?".  First was the Tree War - really we couldn't get some big bombers, some napalm or herbicide and wipe out some trees*? And the trees made hurricanes from waving their branches?
Second was when out of nowhere all the animal people started attacking each other.  The Crab vs Seal made really good sense and was intriguing - but the Parrot people got all violent because a Crab guy walked into their camp?  I can imagine some plausible reasons - like Crab guy is describing the seal people and their evilness, but since the Parrots have no context, perhaps because they have never seen a seal person, they confuse them with another species - but IMHO that's the job of the author. 
Third was when the Butterfly people seemed to suddenly re-appear.  I say that because I had got the feeling that once the cockroach-people had forgetten where they had put the Butterfly people, I figured they would have died out.  They hadn't seemed very hearty nor inventive, and we had been told they survived on honey (not something normally found underground). 

Steve, in case you need any more ammunition for this being sci-fi versus fantasy - don't forget the genetic mutation ;)



*Now I know this isn't without precedent - I recall a story (but not the title) of giant plants that attacked humans.  Now the plants walked slowly, but the ctach was that whatever had "liberated" the plants had also rendered all humans blind.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: alllie on September 21, 2008, 10:01:39 AM
*Now I know this isn't without precedent - I recall a story (but not the title) of giant plants that attacked humans.  Now the plants walked slowly, but the ctach was that whatever had "liberated" the plants had also rendered all humans blind.

The Day of the Triffids? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_of_the_Triffids)
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: cede on September 21, 2008, 02:18:29 PM
i don't think it would be disrespectful to the crickets to know what the apocalypse of darkness is if it can destroy cockroaches
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: slic on September 21, 2008, 06:38:00 PM
*Now I know this isn't without precedent - I recall a story (but not the title) of giant plants that attacked humans.  Now the plants walked slowly, but the ctach was that whatever had "liberated" the plants had also rendered all humans blind.

The Day of the Triffids? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_of_the_Triffids)
Yes, exactly.  I kept thinking of "The Chrysalids" which I knew was wrong, but now I realize it's because it's the same author.

Thanks alllie.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Talia on September 22, 2008, 12:11:32 AM
Fun story. Imaginative. I enjoyed how the trees ended up being the narrator. I tend to agree with them that us humans are pretty much a bunch of jerks :D

Well, err… aahhh… I hate to not like something by Podcastle’s wonderful Rachel Swirsky since I enjoy Podcastle so much (and Podcastle has been putting out lots more content lately, go check it out and aren’t all the pods great)…but I didn’t like it. I know it was done in the style of some of the old pulps but it just didn’t work for me. Every time I started to get into it (and here comes the protestation of “It’s not you. It’s me”) there would be a reference to the whaleMEN or cockroachMEN or butterflyMEN EVEN when the character was female and my feminism would buzz and I would twitch and grit my teeth and hate whoever wrote the story, even Rachel.

Yeah, it is me. But even so the reversion to an old style sexism kept me from having any chance of enjoying it.  How about whalePeople or cockroachPEOPLE or ButterflyHUMANS. Do we have to be reminded of the days when most men (the gender) didn’t consider women (the gender) human or equal or anything but slaves and brood mares and sex toys and maids?

Sorry.


well, one of the main points of the story was how barbaric the human race was. Consider the "sexism" (I wouldnt use the label myself, stuff like that doesn't bother me in the least. Its just a word. In this day and age everyone knows it refers to both genders when used generally. Hell, I even say mailman and fireman sometimes. Mailman, at any rate, is way catcher than mailperson or postal worker or whatever the ultrauberPC term is)a reflection of that, of  a sorts.

Wow, I could probably rephrase that last sentence in a way that doesnt make the parenthesis longer than the regular sentence, but I'm tired.



Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: wintermute on September 22, 2008, 12:41:35 PM
I find it amusing that Rachel is now being accused of not being feminist enough.

I understand allie's point, and at least half agree with her, but (in a grammatical sense, at least) she's possibly not entirely right. The word "man" comes to us from two separate roots: the Germanic "Mensch", meaning "male", from which we get "fireman", "snowman" and so on; and the Latin "humanum", meaning "person", which is derived from "manos", "hand", the same root as "manipulate" or "mandible". I believe that the "man" used in "parrot-man" or "crab-man" is from the Latin and therefore ungendered. I don't think I could definitively defend that, though.

However, there were only a couple of instances of people's gender being mentioned (crab matrons, and the three insectiod that threw themselves off the cliff), and no instances of it actually being relevant. In the main part, it was dealing with broad historical strokes, too large for individual people to be relevant, so a method of drawing distinction between the genders is a needless irrelevance.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: stePH on September 22, 2008, 01:16:33 PM
I found the narrative interesting, but lacking in characters.  There was nobody to latch onto and identify with.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Chivalrybean on September 22, 2008, 02:11:49 PM
I imagine it really wasn't a treaty so much as a treety.

Did the trees talking remind anyone of Ents? If so, you may want to check out this (http://irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/IrregularPodcast008.mp3) episode of Irregular Podcast. Word of warning though, if you drink coffee but don't like laughing it up your nose, don't listen while enjoying your java.

So far as the story itself, I liked the imaginativaty of it. Since it was written as a sort of history, the lack of any characters didn't put me off. If it had been boring, though, it would have been really boring. But it wasn't boring.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: evo.shandor on September 22, 2008, 07:10:48 PM
I am not a fan of humanity in general, but do think we are just as capable of compassion as well as destruction, and I like to see a balance.  This story felt a little too heavy-handed in the "humans are evil" theme without mention of redeeming qualities.

I did like the imagery the piece evoked, though, of humans crossed with mosquitos, cockroaches and butterflies.  Very colorful and unusual images in my head as I listened.  I did not mind that this was "textbook-y" and lacked any characters to follow.  I don't think that was the point.

The closing quote put me in a foul mood: never mind countries looking to buy and use chemical weapons, world leaders who threaten to wipe other countries off the map and want to jump start Armageddon, or a culture that feels suicide bombing a marketplace is a ticket to eternal paradise.  It’s those bloody Americans who are going to ruin everything.

Last thing: I think Frank Key is a great narrator, although he will always be the talking gas mask from "How Lonesome a Life Without Nerve Gas".
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: stePH on September 22, 2008, 08:41:40 PM
Did the trees talking remind anyone of Ents?

Not me; it reminded me of the Parliament of Trees from Swamp Thing during Alan Moore's run.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: contra on September 22, 2008, 09:05:48 PM
First.  I enjoyed the story a lot.  I've never really been exosed to this sot of tale (other than the Shape of Things to Come... >_>)... so I will be at least trying to check out what steve talked about in his intro.  Awesome stuff. 

The story itself.  Well it would have been nice to have looked into the tree side of it more, or how the transition of humans actually happened.  But it could have got bogged down, and its a creation myth... you just have to say 'this happened', and its not really questioned.  At least not at the time the tale is told.  As for all the types of human, at first I was dissapointed; just crossing humans with animals didn't seem that interesting, and well I've seen that movie.  But by making who races of people like that, split by species and not just belief; we could be more brutal to each other.  Its probably easier to dehumanise someone what is half bee, when if you are half cat yourself.  And we've never really needed a reason to murder people.

This is why humans were put as warlike beasts that needed to be destroyed.  At the point we changed over, we were.  So we were stuck in that for as instinct took over.  We are then warlike once things started going well for each specific race. 

I think it would have been interesting to see this story a few million years down the line, when they are actually telling it to humans again.  I'd like to see how it twisted and turned with each telling down the ages.

For the sexism.  I didn't see it.  In almost all cases I saw it as man, as in human.  And only when refering to individuals it seemed to go into detail.  And crabperson, butterflyperson, and whaleperson just don't work as well when you say them.  Whalepeople dounds like a band from the 70's. 

And for evo.shandor who didn't like the closing quote.  When I heard the quote I didn't take it as being about a war disaster, I saw it as refering to other disasters; from global warming or something else.  In this case, it may have been America that was a part of it.  And if its War that ended it; well your country sold weapons all over the worlds for decades.  It breeded the idea of war, and sometimes would fund both sides.  Even if you stop weaponising them, it won't stop the country acting exactly like it was before.  It will get them from somewhere else.  And for rogue states, and other things; America may have been involved or at least been able to do something about it, but chose not to.  As for suicide bombers... not American caused I grant you, but they themselves will not end the world; because it doesn't ever work.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Listener on September 22, 2008, 11:17:12 PM
Do not want.

The reading was good, but I prefer my morality much less heavy-handed than this story. While I am actually writing a "humans are evil" story, it's not in the vein of humans destroying earth. At least, that's not the focus.

I agree with the people who said it lacked characterization. I'm just not the kind of reader who can identify with a story if there are no distinct characters, even if they're all evil.

The concept of how slowly the trees speak was very interesting.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: evo.shandor on September 23, 2008, 12:01:40 AM
And for evo.shandor ... your country sold weapons all over the world

I'm Canadian.  And CANADA will bring about the apocalypse by withholding good beer and hockey players from the world, eh.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: contra on September 23, 2008, 12:13:16 AM
Sorry evo, from your use of the word Bloody I assumed you were from the UK >_>
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Darwinist on September 23, 2008, 02:01:18 AM
And for evo.shandor ... your country sold weapons all over the world

I'm Canadian.  And CANADA will bring about the apocalypse by withholding good beer and hockey players from the world, eh.

No thanks on the hockey players.  What brand of beer?
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: stePH on September 23, 2008, 02:33:24 AM
And for evo.shandor ... your country sold weapons all over the world

I'm Canadian.  And CANADA will bring about the apocalypse by withholding good beer and hockey players from the world, eh.

Hockey means less than nothing to me, and I can find many a fine American beer without even trying.  Widmer Brothers and Deschutes brew right here in Portland, and when last I lived in the Seattle area the Red Hook brewery was a short drive away -- and that's just a small sampling of the local brands.  And if I want something imported, plenty of fine product comes from Mexico, Europe, and Japan.  So you can keep your Canadian lager; I have no particular need of it either.  :P
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Russell Nash on September 23, 2008, 09:19:56 AM
I thought the use of man instead of person was very deliberate.  Every time man was used it was all about destruction and death.  When the Matrons came forward to try and stop the violence, their hands were cut off.  The trees referred to each other as sister and they're the ones who were rebuilding, giving birth, to the new world.  It was the women who jumped from the cliff, refusing to mate, that brought an end to the violence.  You can say that the use of man is generic, but then the only specific use of gender is for our female heroes. 

I think if male and female terms were reversed in this story, there would be blood on he floor from all the screams of sexism.

About the story itself:  I was hoping for Dobson, the out-of-print-pamphleteer to show up.  That would have been a bit more interesting.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Corydon on September 23, 2008, 01:12:00 PM
I very much enjoyed this story... it really did remind me of Stapledon, down to the old-fashioned language and style of the piece.  (Speaking of Stapledon, any fans of Odd John out there?  That's a great story right there.)

Seems to me that the "-man" formulation was part of the old-fashioned flavor of the piece, evoking an older style of narrative that's appropriate for a creation myth.  I envisioned it as hyphenated and capitalized-- Butterfly-Men, Crab-Men-- but that might be taking it a little too far. 

Russell's point is an interesting one, though.  I'll listen to the story again (something I rarely do, but I think it'd be worth it this time) and see if it makes sense to me.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: WillMoo on September 23, 2008, 02:37:13 PM
I liked the idea of the story and, in a general sense, the story itself. I do have some issues with it though. Once the hybrids came about they were no longer "human" thus anything following that could hardly be blamed on "human kind" and as the story points out, they became separate species unto themselves. There was also a line near the beginning that "...they once again embarked on their species' long term goal to wreak as much havoc as possible on the environment through carelessness and boredom ...".  Being an active member of the human race and going to the regular meetings I don't recall this ever being discussed as our "long term mission". There was also the flaw in the idea that the butterflybeings were designed to remember through instinct genetics but then couldn't remember it when it became problematic for the story line. Overall a good story though.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Zathras on September 23, 2008, 04:24:17 PM
Ugg.  I need a beer. 

Did not like this at all.

Excuse me while I go step on some insects, and possible cut down some trees.  Well, after I dump my antifreeze and used motor oil down the drain.

Blech.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Talia on September 23, 2008, 05:43:42 PM
I liked the idea of the story and, in a general sense, the story itself. I do have some issues with it though. Once the hybrids came about they were no longer "human" thus anything following that could hardly be blamed on "human kind" and as the story points out, they became separate species unto themselves. There was also a line near the beginning that "...they once again embarked on their species' long term goal to wreak as much havoc as possible on the environment through carelessness and boredom ...".  Being an active member of the human race and going to the regular meetings I don't recall this ever being discussed as our "long term mission". There was also the flaw in the idea that the butterflybeings were designed to remember through instinct genetics but then couldn't remember it when it became problematic for the story line. Overall a good story though.

The story's narrator wasn't exactly unbiased. The line about  carelessness and boredom was to my mind clearly a snipe from a disgusted tree. Although looking at humankind's history so far I can't disagree. ;p
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Rachel Swirsky on September 23, 2008, 05:50:35 PM
I was kind of shocked to hear that the word "sisters" was in the document, so I did a search... the word "sisters" does not appear in the story. The word "sister" does, but only once, and not in relation to the trees:

Quote
In the past millennia, these cults have gained power. Everyone has lost a sister or a cousin or a parent to their undeniable allure. Whispers among the fine-powdered aristocracy indicate that the cults have even gained sympathy among the inbred monarchy in their velvet-draped cocoons. Soon perhaps, every butterfly will believe.

The trees call each other "seedlings" and "startings-to-grow" (well, technically they call the kids to whom they're telling the story "seedlings" and "startings-to-grow.") I guess maybe "seedlings" sounded like sisters? Anyway, here's the text:

Quote
Interlude – Whisperings from Branch to Branch

So, little rootlings, little seedlings, little starting-to-grows, that is why the earth is quiet now. Feel the snails trail across your bark. Listen to the birds trilling in your branches and the insects nibbling your leaves. Hear the snap of monkeys brachiating from branch to branch. With mankind gone, we are free to enjoy these things. Are they not good?

--

Just for whatever it's worth to the people who were wondering why I used the word "man" instead of "people" -- it was a reference to translations of indigenous mythologies which I'd been reading at the time, which are about humans coming from races of anthroporphized animals. The editor of Electric Velocipede asked me if I wanted to change it to "humans" or "people" for inclusivity, but I liked the mythological sound of "men" which I felt went with the story's tone, so I declined to make the change. That's just what I intended of course; people are welcome to their own interpretations.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: stePH on September 23, 2008, 06:40:14 PM
Just for whatever it's worth to the people who were wondering why I used the word "man" instead of "people" -- it was a reference to translations of indigenous mythologies which I'd been reading at the time, which are about humans coming from races of anthroporphized animals. The editor of Electric Velocipede asked me if I wanted to change it to "humans" or "people" for inclusivity, but I liked the mythological sound of "men" which I felt went with the story's tone, so I declined to make the change. That's just what I intended of course; people are welcome to their own interpretations.

You're only the author -- what do you know?  ;D
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Ocicat on September 23, 2008, 08:12:19 PM
The story had me when it mentioned that there were two apocalypses of "despite certain promises to the contrary" or something to that effect.   That set the tone as silly and irreverent, but smart.  And it would be just like Jehovah to go back on his word about something like that...

It also set it up as not really a Science Fiction story.  Which I'm fine with, of course.  And indeed, the whole thing was as implausible as the millennium is long, but it was good absurdist fun. 
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: thomasowenm on September 24, 2008, 10:00:12 PM
Wow I have such a headache from being constantly bludgened with the wickedness of humanity and their agenda of environmental destruction.   On a lighter note however, in order to save humanity,  all tree huggers: Sierra Club, Greenpeace, and others need to be executed as traitors to humanity.  Defoliate now!!!   
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: eytanz on September 24, 2008, 11:21:22 PM
Ok, I should start by saying that while I really like Rachel as an editor, what I've seen/heard of her as an author so far convinced me she's not really to my taste. All of her stories I were exposed to so far seem to have overt political messages which feel like over-simplified versions of my own views. Hearing your own views reduced to platitudes is fine when politicians do it, but it's really irritating when it comes from literature.

This story fits the mold, in part. There were a handful of moments that I really felt like groaning loudly, and I probably would have if I were listening to it at home rather than a crowded train. But between those moments? I really loved the imagery, and the mythological tone. And while I would have been happier if the trees, having mastered slow arts of speaking, would have had something better to say than cliches, overall I felt the story was a great success.

Also, awesome reading.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Rachel Swirsky on September 25, 2008, 12:03:38 AM
Quote
overt political messages

Well, this is another one of those moments when being the author is weird. When I was writing the story, an environmentalist or "humans are evil" message was seriously not in the equation (on the other hand, the idea that most "apocalypses" aren't apocalypses at all, but just new beginnings in slightly altered forms, was on my mind... I had intended to make fun of the idea of apocalypses). While there are a lot of good reasons for environmentalism, I would be seriously concerned if this story *did* change anyone's behavior. I really don't believe the trees will persecute anyone. ;)

My intention was to enter a world where weird things were happening and take it on its own terms, not to imply that world was literally our own.

The initial round of reviews and such for this story didn't seem to find a political message, but I wonder whether that's because the original setting in which this story was published was a forum well-known for surrealist stories rather than for science fiction, so people were expecting more playfulness in terms of what was "real?"
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: eytanz on September 25, 2008, 12:12:21 AM
This is also one of the moments were familiarity with the author is weird, in the sense that I can't tell what part of my reaction to the story arises from the story itself and what from the outside context where I've read other fiction by you, and more importantly, I've listened to quite a few editorials by you and read quite a lot you've written on the forum. This story does appear to me to fit in a more general pattern, but such a pattern is never indepedent from the vantage point of the person observing it.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: slic on September 25, 2008, 02:43:45 AM
I think it is the well known case of a reader's personal interpretation when given less specific, vivid details. 

Like dreams, when there is a theme, the listener will have their own interpretation, and when listening our brains will grab onto specific words or what words we think should be there (see Rachael's comment about sisters "below"). 
When allie heard ButterflyMan and CockroachMan, etc she saw it as chauvinism. Rachael explained what she was going for (see below "Just for whatever it's worth to the people who were wondering why I used the word "man" instead of "people"...") - and having loved reading ERB's Mars series and other of that time period, my take happened to line up with the author's.
The enviro theme is another example.  I did take it that way a bit, but that's because of, imho, the current and often overwhelming "we must save the enviroment " sense sci-fi/fantasy can have.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: CammoBlammo on September 25, 2008, 11:38:06 AM
I enjoyed this piece, and I must say I am a bit surprised at some of the negative comments. I can understand people not liking it---it's not your usual sci-fi fare, after all. I have two reactions to this discussion:

First, I'm normally the one who complains about a misplaced -man in conversation. However, it seemed to fit right into the Stapledon-esque style of the piece, and it didn't jump out at me. As others have said references to the cockroach-people just wouldn't work. Given that Rachel has been accused of being overly feminist around these here parts, I think we can let it go.

Second, I didn't get that the story was overly moralistic. To me it was a frank admission that humans won't always be the dominant species on this planet. Whether we kill ourselves off, evolve (naturally or technologically) into something else or simply leave there will always be something else ready to fill our ecological niche. If it happens to be trees, well, I won't be too upset!
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Hatton on September 25, 2008, 07:15:25 PM
Wow I have such a headache from being constantly bludgened with the wickedness of humanity and their agenda of environmental destruction.
I don't think it was so much an environmentalist message, rather that it would take less to piss of trees than a mountain.

I liked the story, I LOVED the reading and that makes so much of the story for me.  My favorite part was when the insect-men take over and the trees spoke again: "Well, that didn't take long!"

To be truthful, though, my mind is now going along a tangent of how many volumes of dead trees could be filled with stores of "what happened between now and then."  This is the same problem that we get with a lot of PodCastle episodes, there's a whole world to explore and we only have a 30 minute window into it.  I *love* the idea of the Giants that PodCastle has started with and I hope we get to see them on EP as well!
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Corydon on September 25, 2008, 07:24:05 PM
I have to say, the notion of the story having an "overt political message" is downright silly.  The only judgments that could be called "political" come from the mouths branches of trees.  And it's hardly outrageous to imagine that trees might have a different perspective on human behavior than humans do... exploring those different perspectives is what science fiction is supposed to do.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: eytanz on September 25, 2008, 07:42:27 PM
I have to say, the notion of the story having an "overt political message" is downright silly.  The only judgments that could be called "political" come from the mouths branches of trees.  And it's hardly outrageous to imagine that trees might have a different perspective on human behavior than humans do... exploring those different perspectives is what science fiction is supposed to do.

Ah, but there's the rub. The trees didn't have a "different perspective". They have a perspective I've heard many, many times before. Hell, it's a perspective I myself share to a significant degree. Sure, SF is about exploring different perspective, and it is equally about exploring familair perspectives by placing them in unfamiliar contexts. Making the judges of humanity's nature be trees certainly qualifies. But that doesn't make it any less political.

Real trees might have a different perspective, but unless Rachel and Steve have been lying to us in intros, Rachel isn't a tree. And I don't think she can talk to trees, though I don't have first hand evidence for that. Regardless of the species of her characters, the opinions they express have been thought up by an actual human and worded by the same human.

I should point out that my original comment wasn't intended as a qualitative criticism. As I said, I think this is a very good story. And I think it expresses its political message - intended or not - quite well. And certainly in an SF/fantasy way. But the fact that I can recognize that it's done well doesn't mean it appeals to me.

But saying that it's silly that a story has an overt political message just because that message is expressed in a non-standard way is, it seems to me, a denial of SF's ability to express messages. Which I don't think is what you intended.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Corydon on September 25, 2008, 09:27:19 PM
You seem to be making the assumption that the author's opinions and those of her characters are identical.  Which isn't necessarily the case (you can easily think of any number of examples of unreliable or biased or just plain different narrators in literature.)  So while the trees have an opinion, it doesn't do justice to the story for us to take it as "overt."  Rather, it's an opinion that's filtered through the experience of the story's characters.

I can think of examples of stories in which the author's political opinions are put into the mouths of characters... those stories are pretty dreary, though.  This one is more subtle, and more interesting.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: MacArthurBug on September 25, 2008, 09:53:57 PM
Well, I liked it.  This said, there did seem to be lacking a main charactor or even sect of charactors to latch onto. The story wandered a bit far from it's main point in places.  That said, overall, this was a fine piece of fiction.  I also like how we can get reactions and interactions right here with the lady herself. So, thanks Rachel.  This was nice. Keep writing!
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: eytanz on September 25, 2008, 10:27:28 PM
You seem to be making the assumption that the author's opinions and those of her characters are identical. 

No, I am making no such assumption. I quite explicitly state (though not in my first post in this thread) that author intentions are not particularly relevant.

I said nothing more and nothing less that, when listening to the story, I percieved an overt political message. That's not a fact about the author or her politics. It's a fact about me, and about the story, and about the interaction between me and the story.

Quote
Which isn't necessarily the case (you can easily think of any number of examples of unreliable or biased or just plain different narrators in literature.)  So while the trees have an opinion, it doesn't do justice to the story for us to take it as "overt."  Rather, it's an opinion that's filtered through the experience of the story's characters.

I don't understand what you mean by this. "Overt" just means "not concealed". The tree's political message was not hidden, they said it out loud. Does the author agree with it? I don't know. Does the story agree with it? I'd say yes, but I certainly am not saying that it's the only valid view.

Let me be entirely clear. I did not mean to say anything like "This story make's the author's opinions overt" (and I don't quite see how what I did say can be construed as meaning that, though maybe that's my failure to communicate). Far from it. What I was trying to say is "this story contains characters spouting their own political agendas in an overt manner that does not appeal to me".

I am certainly able to tell apart a character's actions from the author's. If I responded to a horror story on Psuedopod with "I liked this story, except the overt scenes of torture" I would not be accusing the author of actually being a torturer. Why would my saying "I like this story, except the overt political messages" be taken any differently?
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: ajames on September 25, 2008, 10:48:48 PM
Brilliant writing and an interesting story.

Whatever Rachel's intentions when writing it, though, I felt that humanities' wickedness in its mistreatment of the world was being drubbed into me, and it did adversely affect my enjoyment of the story.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Corydon on September 26, 2008, 12:34:30 AM
Let me be entirely clear. I did not mean to say anything like "This story make's the author's opinions overt" (and I don't quite see how what I did say can be construed as meaning that, though maybe that's my failure to communicate). Far from it. What I was trying to say is "this story contains characters spouting their own political agendas in an overt manner that does not appeal to me".

Fair enough.  I misunderstood your comments to mean "this story had a political agenda being pushed by its author", but I see now that that wasn't what you meant.  I certainly agree that the trees have a distinct point of view.  My own feeling is that because that point of view belongs to a character (or set of characters, in this case), there's room for disagreement or reinterpretation.  In other words, it's not lecturing-- something that, for me, would ruin the story.  But that, like your own reaction to the story, falls into the realm of taste.

Also, let me apologize for calling your take on the story "silly."  That was a rude overreaction, and out of line.  I shouldn't have used that language, and I'm sorry I did.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: stePH on September 26, 2008, 04:37:05 AM
Real trees might have a different perspective, but unless Rachel and Steve have been lying to us in intros, Rachel isn't a tree. And I don't think she can talk to trees, though I don't have first hand evidence for that.

Stuff and nonsense.  Anybody can talk to trees; King George III of England did it all the time.

Whether the trees actually understand what is said to them, however, is open to debate.  ;D
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Zathras on September 26, 2008, 02:33:24 PM
You can talk to yourself.

You can answer yourself.

You can even talk to trees.

It's when the trees start answering that you need to be concerned.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Void Munashii on September 26, 2008, 02:58:22 PM
  This was an odd one. I really loved the read, I liked the concept, and a couple of bits of the story itself reminded me of Douglas Adams (although I'm sure the read enhanced that), but I cannot say that this is one of the better stories recently.

  To be fair, I was listening to this one in short chunks during short drives between places while running errands, so maybe it would leave a better impression on me if I listen again all at once, and without someone talking over it every 45 seconds.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Talia on September 26, 2008, 04:03:59 PM
unless Rachel and Steve have been lying to us in intros, Rachel isn't a tree.

I should point out its never been specifically said Rachel wasn't a tree.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Dwango on September 26, 2008, 08:10:56 PM
So many big ideas, but no personal interactions.  Its hard to get into a concept piece when you really don't relate to anyone.

I think it could have been more personal if you had someone talking to the trees, asking them why they are doing this destructive action.  Maybe he could be some teacher and... oh, yeah, that was done before.  That didn't work so well for Shyamalan...

Never mind :-)
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: JoeFitz on September 27, 2008, 02:49:41 AM
I did enjoy the world-building and the awesome scope of the story, however I thought a few episodes within rung hollow.

The overall trope that humanity is self-destructive seemed heavy-handed and lacked a real discussion of why this was so, or why this human stain was so powerful that it persisted through such enormous expanses of genetic variation. I didn't buy it, but perhaps that was the point (it's a tree telling the story after all). Also seems like a truly bizarre way to end a war. Get your enemy to genetically graft themselves to other species based on the individual characteristics of the person?

Still, it worked.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Rain on September 27, 2008, 12:35:46 PM
unless Rachel and Steve have been lying to us in intros, Rachel isn't a tree.

I should point out its never been specifically said Rachel wasn't a tree.

And so what if she is?  Trees have rights too, i for one dont judge a person by the color of their bark!
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Rachel Swirsky on September 27, 2008, 09:39:14 PM
Well, you've all guessed my carefully kept secret.

Excuse me -- my roots are getting dry.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: eytanz on September 29, 2008, 08:00:23 AM
To attack the myth as a factual futuristic condemnation of homo sapiens

Wait, what? I just re-read this entire thread. No-one does that. For one, no one has been attacking the story. Several of us have been criticizing the story, though, but not on the grounds that it is a "factual futuristic condemnation of homo sapiens". It seems to me that everyone who has a problem with the story's "political" side does so because we feel that the story contains a present condemnation of human nature, which is at odds with the futuristic myth setting. In other words, for me at least, the (only) problem with the story is that some of the tree dialogue made it difficult to for to do what you think I should - I found myself pulled out of imagining I was listening to a myth in the distant future.

I should point out that, having spent quite a few posts here clarifying the negative component of my feedback, I've given it undue influence, so let me also restate that I really liked this story, and that I thought that the majority of it worked really well, and was enjoyable, imaginative and overall great.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Windup on September 29, 2008, 12:46:10 PM

One thing that bothered me was the impliction (intended by the author or not) that it was our "humaness" that makes us environmentally destructive.  I tend to think the opposite -- we get in trouble when we try behave like we're just another species.  Because after all, it's the evolutionary ambition of every species to wipe out the competition and expand to the absolute carrying capacity of the environment.

What will save us -- if we are to be saved -- is using our intelligence to comprehend our power and grasp the implications of our actions. That implies that we accept the role as gardeners or tenders of the planet that our gifts thrust upon us.  If we decide we can't or won't do that, the Earth has cleared the slate and started over before, and there's no reason it can't happen again.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Thermonuclearpenguin on September 30, 2008, 03:02:45 AM
My bad, I just realized that I copied the wrong text out of my word file. It was meant for the comment section of the web site.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Hatton on October 01, 2008, 12:24:41 PM
You can talk to yourself.

You can answer yourself.

You can even talk to trees.

It's when the trees start answering that you need to be concerned.
No, answering yourself is fine.  It's when you get into an argument with yourself and loose that you've got problems!
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: yicheng on October 01, 2008, 10:32:57 PM
I, for one, liked the story and found it very imaginative.  As for the "humans are evil" slant of the story, I guess read the story title with the big emphasis on the last word: "Myth".  The setting of the story is in a post-human world, and as Churchill notes: History is written by the victors.  You honestly think that any non-human would have anything positive to say on the legacy of humankind, after an all-out war of annihilation no less?  What do Homo Sapiens say about Neanderthals?  the Americans say about the Iroquois? or the Romans say about Carthage?
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: goatkeeper on October 04, 2008, 11:34:39 PM
I hate to critisize a story where crab men war with seal men, I really do, but...

ugh, nevermind.  I just can't bring myself to do it. 
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Roney on October 10, 2008, 11:32:32 PM
Whatever Rachel's intentions when writing it, though, I felt that humanities' wickedness in its mistreatment of the world was being drubbed into me, and it did adversely affect my enjoyment of the story.

I'm feeling lucky that I read Last And First Men a couple of months ago and have had a bit of schooling in this style of SF with the long historical perspective.  Because I didn't get that impression at all.

If you told the history of the last 2,000 years to a citizen of the Roman empire it would be easy for them to see it as a fable of humanity's destructiveness when unmoderated by the Pax Romana.  On a 100 year timescale, does it look proportionate for Europe to have wasted millions of lives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties) in a spat over the killing of Franz Ferdinand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_9GR9kdZ3o)?

In a story that counts time by apocalypses, it seems almost inevitable that there will be an emphasis on the perceived destructiveness of the creatures who trigger each one.  The narrator is much less likely to linger on the vast majority of decent, law-abiding humans and Creature-Men when history is shaped by the few who give us all a bad name.  And viewed from the perspective of "not being there at the time", war always sounds petty, self-destructive or just plain nuts.  This story would have rung false if it had described tens of thousands of years of peaceful progress or had made the violent interludes sound justifiable.

I thought this story was a lot of fun, and every time it seemed to be getting predictable it came up with something I didn't predict.
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Raving_Lunatic on October 25, 2008, 12:00:32 PM
I have to say that the brilliance of this story inspired me to buy a copy of Last and First Men. I cannot believe I have been a Sci-fi fan without reading it- fantastic and really obvious that the author thinks a lot about philosophy as well as telling an interesting story. This story, again I loved it. Superb storytelling, beautiful landscape, and a world that gripped the imagination and refused to let go. And it was read by Frank Key, who seems to do all the stories I love (How Lonesome A life is a good example.)
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: McToad on November 13, 2008, 04:14:23 AM
Read like a bad fictionalization of a good Rush song.  I did not enjoy this one on any level.

McToad
Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Unblinking on June 22, 2010, 04:54:04 PM
I, for one, liked the story and found it very imaginative.  As for the "humans are evil" slant of the story, I guess read the story title with the big emphasis on the last word: "Myth".  The setting of the story is in a post-human world, and as Churchill notes: History is written by the victors.  You honestly think that any non-human would have anything positive to say on the legacy of humankind, after an all-out war of annihilation no less?  What do Homo Sapiens say about Neanderthals?  the Americans say about the Iroquois? or the Romans say about Carthage?

I've got nothing against the Iroquois.  Just sayin.

Anyhoo, I liked the idea of this story, the multiple apocalypses, the bizarre permutations in between.  Most of all I liked the contracts signed on wood-pulp paper with human blood for ink--neat idea.

But I wish there had been some characters, any characters in the story.  And, though Rachel didn't intend it, it was hard not to see it as a bludgeoning political message.  By itself it's not so bad, but pretty much since the word "green" stopped meaning a pigment, I tend to dislike any story that pushes an environmentalism message.  I don't even disagree with most environmental messages, and I'm trying to change my habits to be more environmentally friendly, but I still get sick of hearing about it.

Title: Re: EP176: How The World Became Quiet: A Post-Human Creation Myth
Post by: Unblinking on June 22, 2010, 04:55:35 PM
Well, you've all guessed my carefully kept secret.

Excuse me -- my roots are getting dry.

Well, on the bright side, whenever you interview for a new job, and they ask that time-old inane interview question "If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?" you have an immediate answer for it.   ;D