Escape Artists
Escape Pod => Science Fiction Discussion => Topic started by: Swamp on January 08, 2010, 11:45:00 PM
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Here is a transcript of Steve's big announcement regarding Jeffrey R. DeRego's Union Dues universe on Escape Pod ep. 223 (http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=3246.0):
I've been going crazy trying to keep quiet about this one, but they finally told me I can talk about it. So, a while ago, I was contacted by Doug Nabors, one of the producers for the T.V. show “Monk”. He and his associate, Darren Bell have optioned the T.V and film rights for the Union Dues universe from Jeff DeRego, and are pushing hard to pitch this as a major television series. This is not a far out theoretical. They’ve hired concept artists who’ve worked on stuff like "Farscape" and "Fallout". Darren Bell was a visual effects producer on "Watchmen".
They’re putting this in front of agents and writers and studios, and at the core of their pitch is the fact that Union Dues already has an existing fan base, thanks to this podcast. I got to contribute a paragraph or two about this myself. So the project is real. That’s not the same as “yes, there will be a series.” A lot of cool stuff gets pitched in Hollywood and goes nowhere, but it could happen.
And they’re asking for your participation and feedback. There’s a site being developed at 1800gounion.com (http://www.1-800-go-union.com/). and you can follow Union of Supers (http://twitter.com/UnionOfSupers) at Twitter, and of course you can comment on our forums. Doug asked me to tell you that they welcome any fan art, suggestions, favorite characters, and most importantly, comments on the following question:
(This is a direct quote)
"Historically, costumed hero shows have failed, or have been perceived as juvenile camp. Why have they failed? What content/story/ angle can Union Dues provide that other live action super hero shows have not been able to? Although "Heroes" has been a commercial success, it has failed critically. We are pitching this series as the antithesis of this type of glossy, bubblegum hero fiction.”
I’ll have more to say about this later on I’m sure, and by the way, just to make clear, their option is with DeRego. If this succeeds, he makes money. Escape Artists doesn’t stand to get any benefit financially from this at all. It would be good publicity, but mostly I’m promoting this because it would be So Damn Cool. If you agree, help spread the word.
So what do you think?
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Wow. This is beyond awesome. Not only is this phenomenal for Mr. Derego, it's great to see someone out of Hollywood actually pursuing quality work material. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for this to go to production. Consider me a pre-built viewer.
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I've already started whoring it up on Twitter. Let me know anything else I can do to make this happen.
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I just talked it up on my blog (http://marshaldillon.livejournal.com/55052.html).
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What do you want for attribution, Swamp? I'm thinking about just copying and pasting your blog.
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We need a hashtag for Twitter so we can make it a trending topic.
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What do you want for attribution, Swamp? I'm thinking about just copying and pasting your blog.
Consider it creative commons. Do what you want with it, just don't change it, or sell it, and make sure to state where you got it from. :)
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Holy crap. Awesome. Crossing my fingers. (and gonna tweet about it).
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Am I the only one who actually dialed 1-800-GO-Union?
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Am I the only one who actually dialed 1-800-GO-Union?
LOL, no. When All That We Leave Behind was first published, several others did as that's the first mention of the Union recruitment hotline. Strangely, I never dialed it but I've heard it's a sex chat line.
Sorry about that.
Also, join the Union Dues fanpage on Facebook :)
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Following on twitter, fanned on FB, awaiting website! Congrats!
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Wow! I've been a fan of Union Dues since the very first story when I realized that it was very different from the standard "super heroes" story. I'm absolutely thrilled for you, Mr. DeRego, and I can't wait to see it on the big screen (my TV is large :)).
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We've been building the presentation for the pitch for the past three months.
As Steve gracefully mentioned, the value in this property is that it has a loyal fan base that has already been established here at Escape Pod. It is obvious to us all why we love the Union Dues stories. The challenge is translating that love to those who may not have been exposed to the UD world.
Our attack is two-pronged.
1. Activate and energize this fan base, and INVOLVE them in spreading the word, creating buzz, and turning this grassroots following into a raging wildfire.
2. Developing a pitch with accompanying concept art, talent attachments, and a unique angle on the subject matter.
The combination of these two fronts is what will peak interest in Union Dues as a television concept, and entice networks (on-air, cable or otherwise) to sit up and take notice.
Selling a show is very much like pulling the lever on a slot machine, and hoping for cherries. Currently, we're trying to rig the game a bit in our own favor- and your favor.
In the near future, you will start seeing concept art, an interesting web concept, and notifications of our progress. We really need your help in maintaining the momentum.
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I didn't listen to the episode, but I went back and listened to the outro and I wanted to wish the best luck with this to Jeffery and Doug and anyone else involved in the project. I've made no secret here in the past of the fact that I don't find Union Dues particularly to my taste, but I certainly can tell that it has what is necessary for an excellent television series. I probably won't watch it, b I have several friends who I think would love it; once there is something a bit more developed on the web I will direct them to it.ut
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I would be very curious to see how Union Dues stories play out as a TV series. Good Luck!!
Joined the FB group (saw BDoomed there ;).
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Joined the FB group (saw BDoomed there ;).
:D
'course I joined it, a UD tv show would quite possibly be one of the coolest things ever, especially since I'm part of the community that nurtured it's growth. I've loved UD since the first story aired, and seeing it culminate into a television show would blow my mind.
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RE: Feedback on television show concepts
One of the big strengths of the Union Dues series, in my opinion, is the way the characters find themselves so often helpless. I think "The Shield" and "The Wire" would both be good models for running a Union Dues series. Basically, a cop show with superpowered people rather than a "superhero show." Colorful costumes and whiz-bang villains just don't translate well to the screen.
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How to make it a good show?
Freedom with a Small f
Off White Lies
The Union cares not for its members. The Union cares for itself. The Union is Mother, The Union is Father...
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Zorag (and others) has a point that I'm going to take a step further. Perhaps the question should not be "How can we make this a good SUPERHERO TV show?" or "How did the other SUPERHERO TV show(s) go wrong?" but "How can we make this a good TELEVISION SHOW, period?"
Here's a big tip: The audience is quite a bit more astute, in tune, and intelligent than most of Hollywood seems to understand.
Consider: For years, all we had for sci-fi were things like Star Trek or Quantum Leap or Sliders. Almost every episode wrapped up nice and neat, with a bow on it, and the "reset" button was pressed so that the viewers didn't have to remember much of anything from episode to episode. Worf mad at Dr. Crusher? Not after this one episode, he won't be. What that said to viewers was "Don't worry your pretty little head. If you miss one--or two, or ten, or thirty--episodes, it won't matter. You can pick it right up without any difficulties." And maybe that was true when we didn't know any better.
But! Then along came Babylon 5. With a FIVE YEAR arc. With characters who lived and died. And Farscape. And Firefly. And Battlestar Frakking Galactica. (I'm sure there are others I'm leaving out. Stargate Universe...is trying. We'll see how it works out.)
What those shows did RIGHT (IMHO) is to treat their viewers with a little damned RESPECT. "You actually have an attention span!" those shows cried. "We can ask more of you!" And ask us, they did. They gave us characters with more than one dimension. Who had problems and flaws and, by golly, FAILED once in a while. They had episodes separated by weeks or months that referred back to events in prior episodes.
That being SAID, as good as Mr. DeRego's stories are, it would be a mistake to try to turn them into a cavalcade of special effects at the expense of the STORIES. That would be an hour-long "grit-com" with no substance.
How do you get us to get behind the show, should it eventually come to pass? Make us CARE. Treat us like intelligent people.
</soapbox>
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another good model would be dressing room scenes from Mickey Rourke's the wrestler. outside they put on outrageous larger-than-life personas but behind the scenes we see the human damage. one of the hardest things to do in a show like this is to create emotional sympathy for a massive bodybuilder in fabulous tights, the wrestler is a good place to start.
visual queues that show a character is in or out of the union persona could be effective. this is used in both st:tng and bsg, when Picard or Adama are off duty they undo the top button on their uniform (costume equivalent of loosening a tie). masked heroes that push back their hood when behind the scenes would give more full face exposure without always having to create silly excuses for it (really, how many times did spiderman lose his mask during the movies?). characters that choose to always keep their costume intact, like Johnny Toruko would, gives another kind of insight into the character.
in order to be taken seriously most shows like this tone down and darken the costumes (as per x-men & watchmen), i'd be interested to see if it's possible to take it to full on florescent tights and still pull it off. maybe use filters to really make the colours pop during media event scenes, create that shiny shampoo commercial effect used in aeon flux & the island, then dampen back to reality when the characters step out of the spotlight. the costumes could even be made from some unrealistic material (in show) that looks great in performance but quickly smudges and picks up dirt in practical circumstances. i like me some visual metaphor.
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The biggest problem i can see with this would be the story. Shows like lost and Heroes were great the first season but their lack of a planned end created a meandering plot that is hard to follow. If this is a show like heroes or lost and not CSI or Friends it needs to be a set number of shows with a storyline that is followed.
Tell me what you think
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I agree with YAY (yay by the way on the name).
A set number of episodes, a neatly wrapped up story, sort of like Cowboy Bebop (but hopefully longer haha).
You need to know when to stop, that's where Heroes failed, IMHO.
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Re: "Previously" segments:
I've seen "previously" segments that worked. For instance, on Stargate: SG-1, Stargate: Atlantis, and Stargate: Universe, they use "previously" segments that do a quick recap of what has happened but focusing on what will be relevant to this episode. As long as it doesn't go on for too long, it can work in small doses. Especially if, say, there is a long hiatus between two episodes. *cough*Leverage*cough* *cough*Stargate: Universe*cough*.
In my opinion, the way Babylon 5 did it was better. When the viewer was expected to remember some trivial fact from 20 episodes ago, rather than make you sit through three minutes of scenes from previous episodes, they just inserted a small flashback so that we saw that bit again, in sepia, in the place where it was relevant. It was very effective.
Dexter also uses the "previously" segment rather well, I think, although if you watch it like I do--back to back on DVD--it gets annoying fast. :)
Dexter! There's another excellent example of how to do characters right. The main character is a SERIAL KILLER. And yet, we sympathize with him. Want him to succeed. Get anxious when he might be found out. Surely, if a serial killer can be made sympathetic, a bunch of people with superpowers can be. :)
(Notice how I said "people with superpowers" and not "superheroes"? Emphasis on "people." :) Not to belabor my point. (he said, belaboring his point.))
And put me down as another vote on "knowing where to stop." Have an arc, not only for the world, but for each character. So that the world changes as the characters change with it.
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I'm very excited about the possibility of a Union Dues series. You asked what the Super-Hero genre is missing, I have some observations.
Battle Star Galacta was amazing. I know nothing of military life, and just a little about politics. However, seeing that show, it certainly felt like the writers and production staff had researched the workings of military and civilian organizations. It also seemed that they must have had some real understanding of how such groups, as well as individuals, have responded under high-stress circumstances.
Similarly, I know nothing about working as part of a First-World corporation in a developing nation, nor what it is like to be a refugee living in Africa. It certainly felt as though the folks who put together District 9 had developed an understanding of those topics before they set out to work.
The results of those shows are much preferable to those of X-men, for example. Not that the X-men aren't fun, but one comes away from it, and most of it's ilk, feeling more like you've learned something about the fantasies of a 14 year old boy than gotten a taste of reality-based speculative fiction.
So for my first request: Do some serious homework.
Get a solid understanding of real life unions and how they work. Good, bad, ugly, etc.
Then get a solid understanding of real life "Super-Humans." Bruce Lee, Bjork, Wayne Gretzky spring to my mind. Maybe you'd prefer Olympic Atheletes, (who have the added bonus of being take out of "normal life" at a young age, much like most of the Union characters), or maybe historical and present day geniuses. Whatever seems inspiring.
Add a bit of knowledge about the characters of a few political or business heavy hitters. Doesn't have to be huge, but develop a bit of a sense of what it would be like to know the kind of person who might lay off a few thousand workers or send a lot of soldiers to their death just as a matter of course in their work.
Second request: Trust the creative process / team.
Doing the background work should be a source of inspiration and provide a solid foundation for you, and the audience, to really latch onto. It shouldn't overshadow the fascination of the super powers or impose unnecessary limits on the plot.
The only hard limits I'd like would be that nobody who thinks or acts like an immature idiot (Heroes springs to mind) lasts long in the real world, so don't let it fly in yours. And nobody comes back to life. Dead people stay dead, and the consequences of one show permeate those that follow.
Third request: Ice the cake!
This is my favorite gimick idea:
In the story, the Luminaries work with a PR team to re-tell actual events as larger-than-life Super-Hero events. Do the same thing by having a "Previously on Union Dues" section for every show, and use that as an opportunity to show events the way a comic-book author might. Where the main show should feel like you are leaning on real life for inspiration, the "Previously ..." should be re-shot with bigger, bolder colors, actors hamming it up just a little bit, and the whole thing coming together so that it feels like the preview for the next summer blockbuster, a corporate PR statement, and a public service announcement all rolled into one.
The real trick is to start off having it just be an amusing piece of the show, with the in-show characters occasionally being shown as they go through the paces of putting together the PR retelling. And then, just when everybody is used to the entertainment of the "Previously ..." section being used to make fun of all the cheesy Super Hero movies, do Something Horrible. In my head, somebody who we thought was a main character dies as a result of the Union deciding they were expendable, and when the next "Previously..." comes out, everyone suddenly leaves their seat, points at the screen, and says "THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED!" And we watch in horror as folks are simultaneously grieving their lost companion and being made to participate in a vile cover up for their superiors. While normally fun, there should be a few "Previously ..." sequences that are about as ugly and dishonest as would be a US government campaign that claimed JFK died driving drunk or MLK Jr. over-dosed on heroin, and we should take their lives as a precautionary tale against drug abuse.
Hope this is useful, good luck and thanks!
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Heroes failed on making things stick.
It would do things, and then try desperatly to undo it and make a mess.
Mr Bennett is a perfect example of this. He's a bad guy, no wait... but he is a bad guy, no wait... but ... no ... wait...
After the original reveal we liked the character. Everything he did up to that point suddenly made sence.
But then continued to try and make him be morally dodgy, to try and make us not like him again.
Union Dues. Have a set arc for the characters. But then know when to let them go into the background. You don't have to kill or get rid of them, but you can move onto other people, and tell that story.
But first it is the nature of comic books that people move in and out of the story, so the Union move people around a lot to keep up with that. Also injury and so on. Heroes isn't willing to let its characters go.
Second it doesn't have a scope. You have no idea how big the Heroes universe is, despite it being set across America.
Now I've rewritten this multiple times. Mostly because many times I have written lots about heroes flaws, and oh the many flaws it has. But this is the core of it.
The only other thing I'd add is remember what you have done previously. Heroes forgets the past on a regular basis often ignoring or contradicting what happened previously.
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Get a solid understanding of real life unions and how they work. Good, bad, ugly, etc.
Yeah, like that union guy at the plant...and there is always at least one...who never goes out of his way to get any of his work done, and will never ever work one minute past shift or during break, even if you're at a crucial part of a project, all the time quoting union regualtions. You know what I mean, the guy who works the system, and gives other hard-working union members a bad name.
Applying those characteristics into a super in the UD universe would be interesting.
Actually, I think the best use of Union Dues as an analogy to real life unions was "Iron Bars and the Glass Jaw", though not in the way I mention above.
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You know how NCIS does the black and white scenes when they come back from break as a tease for later?
Do something similar to that, but do it as a comic book panel. You don't have to do it the same way, but it is a cool tool, IMO.
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The biggest problem i can see with this would be the story. Shows like lost and Heroes were great the first season but their lack of a planned end created a meandering plot that is hard to follow. If this is a show like heroes or lost and not CSI or Friends it needs to be a set number of shows with a storyline that is followed.
Tell me what you think
There's an ending, don't worry.
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If any of the Escapepod UD stories are used, I hope it's Off White Lies.
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If any of the Escapepod UD stories are used, I hope it's Off White Lies.
All of the original stories have been treated for adaptation in one way or another so far.
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Get a solid understanding of real life unions and how they work. Good, bad, ugly, etc.
i disagree, the 'union' in union dues is pretty much a euphemism. real life unions have secondary relevance at best.
The biggest problem i can see with this would be the story.
of course the story is a big part of any show but that isn't the biggest problem facing union dues tv.
tv's sf/f programming has exploded over the last decade but there hasn't been a real attempt to create a serious live action costumed superhero show. some abortive comedy efforts that lasted one season (the tick & no heroics) but i can't think of anything serious recently. smallville might have got costumed at some point but it eased you into it, it didn't start that way.
i assume that tv execs still see costumes, particularly masks, as silly and hard to play serious onscreen (i'd welcome correction if that's wrong). the recent success of masked heroes on the big screen might create an opening though.
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Lots of good comments, especially about respecting the audience by allowing longer plot arcs than a single episode.
My two cents: take a lesson from Heroes Season 1, back when it was amazing and not just another heap of Hollywood-endorsed turds. Real emotions, real motivations, some characters with ambiguous intentions (like horn-rimmed glasses). In particular I loved Hiro for his naive enthusiasm and Sylar for his mystery and malice. And then take lessons from the terrible seasons 2 and 3 (which is where I finally gave up). When you take that time to set up a character don't have them pull a 180 without cause. Do your homework (solar eclipses are not a global event and don't happen in the same place very frequently). Find good actors (I'm looking at you, Kristen Bell, and whoever played the speedy girl for lowering standards). When a character dies, let them STAY dead (at least most of the time). Colorful costumes are hard for anyone to take seriously, it could be like Heroes with no costumes, or like the newer X-Men movies where most of the costumes are less flashy and seem more serviceable--no spandex!
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People keep harping on the "no costumes" thing.
But...isn't that kind of part of the POINT of Union Dues? The characters don't necessarily like the costumes, either. They're being forced to wear them to conform to some comic book artist's conception of them and not who they really are. It's either wear the costume and be a good boy/girl, or learn to like the cold. It all comes down to contracts and sponsorship deals. (I seem to recall that this led to one of the funniest moments in Mystery Men, when Captain Amazing's agent/manager had literally sold AD SPACE on his costume to Pepsi and Pennzoil and such.)
Done with THAT in mind, I think the colorful spandex costumes could work on TV. It could be a point of contention just like it is in the stories. Some characters could LIKE them, others hate them. Others (like Johnny Toruko(?)) wear them as a way of hiding who they really are. Etc.
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People keep harping on the "no costumes" thing.
But...isn't that kind of part of the POINT of Union Dues? The characters don't necessarily like the costumes, either. They're being forced to wear them to conform to some comic book artist's conception of them and not who they really are. It's either wear the costume and be a good boy/girl, or learn to like the cold. It all comes down to contracts and sponsorship deals. (I seem to recall that this led to one of the funniest moments in Mystery Men, when Captain Amazing's agent/manager had literally sold AD SPACE on his costume to Pepsi and Pennzoil and such.)
Done with THAT in mind, I think the colorful spandex costumes could work on TV. It could be a point of contention just like it is in the stories. Some characters could LIKE them, others hate them. Others (like Johnny Toruko(?)) wear them as a way of hiding who they really are. Etc.
Costumes are integral. If the Union Dues stories have done anything it's imparted that the person beneath the costume is viewed as much less important than the costume. They are, by design, comic book characters who interact with the real world. Without costumes it wouldn't be Union Dues.
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i, for one, never suggested that the costumes should be dropped. in fact i suggested going with bright spandex instead of the muted colours hollywood has adopted.
when selling the show it helps to be prepared for the objections you will face. union dues' selling strength & weakness is tied to the costumes, there's nothing else like it on air but there's a reason for that. talking about objections and answering them is one of the points of this thread.
i believe the strategy should be to mention big screen costume success (people have become used to costumed drama) cite the wrestler as an example of spandex having a role in critical success (though make the point that union dues is in no way the wrestler for the small screen) and have some killer concept art.
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How are you going to handle all the powers? I don't need an answer, but this is very important. The fact that there are a set number of powers helps.
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Have a set arc for the characters. But then know when to let them go into the background. You don't have to kill or get rid of them, but you can move onto other people, and tell that story.
That's all well and good, but TV showrunners and the channels they run on are notorious for giving "notes" that end up changing things in unexpected directions that the creators weren't quite planning to go. It's the give and take of the business.
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This is a stupid, superficial point, but one of the major things that has irritated me about Heroes in the later seasons is the fact that it seemed like they were constantly adding new hot blonde chicks onto the show that were all attractive in the same boring way. It seemed like the point where I gave up on the series (somewhere in season 3), half the female cast was super hot blonde chicks, which just felt... silly to me.
The other part that bothered me was the fact that it didn't seem like the show was ever *going* anywhere with any particular plan. I've done NaNoWriMo enough times to know what it looks like when writers are winging it, and after the first season Heroes always had that general feel to it, both to the detriment of all of the characters and to any semblance of plot.
To Union Dues: The sort of "regulated monopoly" feel that the Union has is one that I find really interesting, and the obvious conflict with the mercenary police force is something I find fascinating. The arc of this season of Dollhouse, which is related to the take down of a powerful organization with tendrils in government, academia, etc has a dark feel to it that I could definitely see Union Dues taking on, though I see a much grittier world in the Union Dues story. (Since Dollhouse has been canceled, it might not be the best thing to be taking lessons from, but I still thought that the world-feel of it's current story arch is really interesting.)
The part of Union Dues that I find really interesting-- and different from most superhero stories-- is how helpless all of the heroes are, individually, against the Union itself. Between the imprinting and the general power-- and governmental sway-- that the Union holds, you get the idea that the heroes have a lot of the same problems with modern society that the rest of us do. Like us, they're cogs in a machine that's being controlled by people we'll never have a chance to influencing; because of the regulations regarding their powers they really have even less agency than we do.
Also: Holy shit this is awesome.
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I'm glad it'll have an ending.
Now, the following opinion is not the opinion of a moderator, rather just the opinion of a person. So feel free to ignore it.
I feel like telling Sir DeRego what to do with his story is pretty damn dumb, after all he's already brought us multiple awesome stories that are very well written and intelligent. I feel most of what is said here he either A. already knows B. already knows or C. isn't the direction his stories go so do not pertain to him. I mean I can already see that Union Dues is very much unlike Heroes and the like. It has its own personality, and the show, if made, will have a similar if not identical personality.
anyway, continue with the ideas. I guess it's better to put them out there and have them ignored or merely noted than to not have them there at all. After all, a few of them probably help. :P
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I'm glad it'll have an ending.
Now, the following opinion is not the opinion of a moderator, rather just the opinion of a person. So feel free to ignore it.
I feel like telling Sir DeRego what to do with his story is pretty damn dumb, after all he's already brought us multiple awesome stories that are very well written and intelligent. I feel most of what is said here he either A. already knows B. already knows or C. isn't the direction his stories go so do not pertain to him. I mean I can already see that Union Dues is very much unlike Heroes and the like. It has its own personality, and the show, if made, will have a similar if not identical personality.
But, um, he (and Doug) specifically asked.
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aye, you're missing the primary purpose of this thread: showing that an established fan base exists that's engaged with the union dues universe. from this perspective there are no bad posts, more the better. if they could back up their pitch by saying that there were thousands of posts in response to the posibility of a tv series then it helps their case.
i understand where you're coming from, it's naive to think that a writer needs pointers about how to handle episode story arcs & seasonal story arcs, but it's just as naive to think that it's your place to play white knight to other people's ego. your post implies that you have a greater trust and appreciation of union dues than the people making suggestions and that simply isn't the case. (btw, this rant isn't really targeted at you. these kind of posts show up all over the internet)
specific suggestions are probably more useful than general 'write a good story' comments. at least these create a slushpile of ideas that could be used if needed. i'm a fan of the start of episode recaps being union-sanctioned comic montages, how cool would it be to actually see this idea implemented?
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Please! Keep the conversation going! I am pasting comments into a google wave that Doug and I use to communicate. This helps us refine the vision in conversation! Talk about costumes, endings, story elements, arcs and plots, actors you think fit certain parts, etc... All of that is more than welcome, it's solicited! Keep it coming!
I, for example, hear this song and immediately think "Union Dues Theme Song".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in5VExTM4eA
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Any chance of getting a promotional comic released? Something that explains the basic structure? Or maybe do the Union Sanctioned Recap as a web comic?
Actors: any SciFi names. Personally, I beg you to find a way to get Walter Koenig to play one of the Luminaries. I'd give a huge girlish squeeeeeeeeee for that.
Getting Lou Ferrigno to play an aging super strong would rawk, too.
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i'm a fan of the start of episode recaps being union-sanctioned comic montages, how cool would it be to actually see this idea implemented?
Oooooooh! Now THAT does sound interesting. For the record, the just-for-DVD release of the Dead Like Me movie did this. I thought it was an odd idea for that, but for a show whose entire raison d'etre is being about comic book superheroes....
Yes.
(As an aside, why can't I use ê to make an e-circumflex? :( )
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Please! Keep the conversation going! I am pasting comments into a google wave that Doug and I use to communicate. This helps us refine the vision in conversation! Talk about costumes, endings, story elements, arcs and plots, actors you think fit certain parts, etc... All of that is more than welcome, it's solicited! Keep it coming!
I, for example, hear this song and immediately think "Union Dues Theme Song".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in5VExTM4eA
It sounds a little 80s to me...
I'd think something along the lines of a remake of "I Need a Hero" -- it worked to amazing effect in Shrek 2; I bet someone could do a great cover of it.
I can almost see the opening credits as a group-save with each superhero getting long enough facetime to show the actor's name, then at the end, the adrenaline collapse... or perhaps two scenes per main superhero where the first is the save and the second is the recovery... *shrug*
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I, for example, hear this song and immediately think "Union Dues Theme Song".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in5VExTM4eA
It sounds a little 80s to me...
Then how about this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT3PvY3FEa4). ;D
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I, for example, hear this song and immediately think "Union Dues Theme Song".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in5VExTM4eA
It sounds a little 80s to me...
Then how about this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT3PvY3FEa4). ;D
Oh man that song sucks even more now than it did the first time I heard it, and the first time I heard it I thought it sucked more than anything that could ever suck. I used to skip the first five minutes of Enterprise to avoid that crapola.
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I'm glad it'll have an ending.
Now, the following opinion is not the opinion of a moderator, rather just the opinion of a person. So feel free to ignore it.
I feel like telling Sir DeRego what to do with his story is pretty damn dumb, after all he's already brought us multiple awesome stories that are very well written and intelligent. I feel most of what is said here he either A. already knows B. already knows or C. isn't the direction his stories go so do not pertain to him. I mean I can already see that Union Dues is very much unlike Heroes and the like. It has its own personality, and the show, if made, will have a similar if not identical personality.
But, um, he (and Doug) specifically asked.
And we don't know just how involved he'll be with the show. Head writer? Script editor? Creative consultant? "Executive Producer"* ? This advice is not necessarily for Mr. DeRego himself, but for whoever will be writing and producing the stories (and the suits making decisions about same).
* this credit is essentially "we're throwing you a bone by putting your name here", am I right?
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I'm glad it'll have an ending.
Now, the following opinion is not the opinion of a moderator, rather just the opinion of a person. So feel free to ignore it.
I feel like telling Sir DeRego what to do with his story is pretty damn dumb, after all he's already brought us multiple awesome stories that are very well written and intelligent. I feel most of what is said here he either A. already knows B. already knows or C. isn't the direction his stories go so do not pertain to him. I mean I can already see that Union Dues is very much unlike Heroes and the like. It has its own personality, and the show, if made, will have a similar if not identical personality.
But, um, he (and Doug) specifically asked.
And we don't know just how involved he'll be with the show. Head writer? Script editor? Creative consultant? "Executive Producer"* ? This advice is not necessarily for Mr. DeRego himself, but for whoever will be writing and producing the stories (and the suits making decisions about same).
* this credit is essentially "we're throwing you a bone by putting your name here", am I right?
Not really. I will be receiving a "created by" credit and we have an agreement that keeps me involved in the storytelling and some other stuff if the show goes into production. I don't think I can get into that much detail about that agreement though.
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I would love it if the emphasis stayed on the interpersonal relationships between the supers, and how they struggle to deal with normals, rather than on superheroic exploits. Mind you, I love me some explosions, but I hope the emphasis stays mostly on these people trying to deal with what they are and what they aren't.
As to characters, I'd love to see Megaton featured, as well as the super-smart (whose name I can't remember) from EP080, Clean Up in Aisle Five.
For story arcs, it seems like there's a conflict brewing between disillusioned supers and paranoid normals, and maybe even between the supers and the Luminaries. That might make a great long-term arc.
Also, people need to die. Not just for kicks, but to support the story. The A-Team was great when I was kid, but did anyone notice that, amid all the automatic weapons fire, no one ever got shot?
My .02, anyways. I'm looking forward to watching this develop.
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And we don't know just how involved he'll be with the show. Head writer? Script editor? Creative consultant? "Executive Producer"* ? This advice is not necessarily for Mr. DeRego himself, but for whoever will be writing and producing the stories (and the suits making decisions about same).
* this credit is essentially "we're throwing you a bone by putting your name here", am I right?
Not really. I will be receiving a "created by" credit and we have an agreement that keeps me involved in the storytelling and some other stuff if the show goes into production.
I meant specifically the credit of "Executive Producer". My understanding is that it's just a "vanity" credit.
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StePH: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-an-executive-producer.htm
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StePH: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-an-executive-producer.htm
Okay, so it's a "You've put up your money for this joint, so we'll put your name on it" credit. :P
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The idea of Lou Ferrigno playing an aging hero is inspired. I was thinking that it would be cool for all the aging supers to be played by actors who played supers, but most of the are still too famous (Tobey) or dead (Reeve). Still, it would be fun for famous actors to play the aging supers.
Did anyone see that show "Sports Night?" It was about the behind the scenes work that went into making a show called "Sports Night." Each episode of the real ended with the fictional show starting. "Welcome to Sports Night. We have a great show lined up for you. First an interview with Raider's coach...[roll closing credits]". Then again, not every UD story is about the putting together of a TV show...
Someone above mentioned Hiro from "Heroes." In such a dark and complex world of The Union, I think you need to have a guy like this who loves saving people and who's spirit is not crushed. Not a phony "Rah Rah! Go Union" type of guy that everyone hates, nor a hero who is too blind to see what's really going on, though. The vibe I get from the short stories is utterly hopeless. I think people are fine with a dark show, but they need some shred of hope to cling to. In 24 everything looks hopeless, but you know Jack is going to get the guy in the end. In BSG you not sure they will ever find Earth -and most episodes they don't even mention it- but it's something. In UD this could be occasional, cryptic messages from a resistance group (there are 12 cylon models), or rumors of a rogue pyramid in Africa or something. Now that I think of it, this could be an interesting contrast. The UD comics and (fictional)TV show are more like 24 with a villain and a clear outcome. But the lives of the UD characters (on the actual TV show) are more like BSG.
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I think it's interesting that lots of people are talking about Union Dues as a Superhero series, and how to balance fighting villains and saving people with character arcs.
But this is Union Dues. In my mind, there are no superheroes in this universe. Think back to the stories... when did any of them involve fighting a supervillain? How often do the Union members go on missions to save civilians? They wear costumes, yes. They have superpowers, yes. But they're not heroes. Some of them might want to be, but Union *won't let them*. And the only villain is the Union itself.
That, more than anything, is what should differentiate this series from Heroes.
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I think it's interesting that lots of people are talking about Union Dues as a Superhero series, and how to balance fighting villains and saving people with character arcs.
But this is Union Dues. In my mind, there are no superheroes in this universe. Think back to the stories... when did any of them involve fighting a supervillain? How often do the Union members go on missions to save civilians? They wear costumes, yes. They have superpowers, yes. But they're not heroes. Some of them might want to be, but Union *won't let them*. And the only villain is the Union itself.
That, more than anything, is what should differentiate this series from Heroes.
Exactly. We see the Union heroes performing disaster relief and the like, not crime-fighting. Doesn't their charter forbid them from encroaching on the job of law enforcement?
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The audience needs someone to root for. No one wants to watch something hopeless.
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In my mind, there are no superheroes in this universe.
Exactly. We see the Union heroes performing disaster relief and the like, not crime-fighting.
so someone using super-strength to dig out earthquake survivors isn't considered a superhero unless they also spend time putting bruises on purse snatchers?
you draw a narrow line my friends.
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Well, yes... but even so, the UD stories aren't about digging out earthquake survivors. In theory, the characters do that, but how often has Union members going to a disaster site actually been shown? I think maybe once. There are scenes of them saving people from "disasters" caused by their own powers several more times - which hardly makes them heroic.
I really get the idea that not only does it got get shown much, but that Union members doing actual heroics doesn't happen very much. The mundane Fire and Rescue people don't want them there. The Union will get called in on really big Katerina style disasters, or the Union will send them in if there's going to be a good photo op. And that's what they're there for: not the heroics, the photo op.
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I think that the fact that most of the public (?) seems to support the Union needs to be played up as well. It's only the people who actually interact with the Union that get to see the Union's true face.
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I'd like to put a vote in for Neal Mcdonough, firstly because he's awesome and secondly because I think he'd fit as the lead character in Clean Up in Aisle Five.
Regarding other casting, it might be interesting to play against type, especially with the super strong characters. I know it's established in the stories that they're physically very large but it would be interesting to see someone with a slight build but incredible muscle density or something similar. Essentially The Thing minus the largeness and orange rock:)
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I'd like to put a vote in for Neal Mcdonough, firstly because he's awesome and secondly because I think he'd fit as the lead character in Clean Up in Aisle Five.
Oh my goodness, yes. He'd be swell.
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I'd like to suggest Jason Mollett in a one line role. ;D
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Hello? Lynda Carter, anyone? :)
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The idea of Lou Ferrigno playing an aging hero is inspired. I was thinking that it would be cool for all the aging supers to be played by actors who played supers, but most of the are still too famous (Tobey) or dead (Reeve). Still, it would be fun for famous actors to play the aging supers.
Adam West. Burt Ward. Dean Cain. Lynda Carter. Kevin Conroy (he MUST play someone, or at least someone's voice). Terence Stamp. Sarah Michelle Gellar (Buffy counts, damn it!). Some of the folks from the crappier superhero shows that didn't get renewed, maybe?
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The idea of Lou Ferrigno playing an aging hero is inspired. I was thinking that it would be cool for all the aging supers to be played by actors who played supers, but most of the are still too famous (Tobey) or dead (Reeve). Still, it would be fun for famous actors to play the aging supers.
Adam West. Burt Ward. Dean Cain. Lynda Carter. Kevin Conroy (he MUST play someone, or at least someone's voice). Terence Stamp. Sarah Michelle Gellar (Buffy counts, damn it!). Some of the folks from the crappier superhero shows that didn't get renewed, maybe?
OK, I was trying to avoid this list of older actors, but I will suggest including Lee Majors in there. He was the Six Million Dollar Man after all.
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First time I've ever posted to a discussion group...be gentle.
It seems to me that the whole underlying theme of UD is the difference between the comic book persona and how it really works in the "real" world. The wonderful, creative stuff this material brings to the table is the anti-hero grime of how comic book (and TV) solutions don't work. Dead is dead. Good/Evil is often morally gray.
I love the idea of a Union Approved comic montage for the Previous section as the Union PR spins the reality into something they can work with. Could also be used to show some of the things that the Normals think the Supers are doing which they really aren't. It would help the viewer get into the mindset of a normal living in this world. And then the episode can squash that perception with it's brand of reality. Especially if the Supers themselves get to know about the montage and react to it ("I didn't capture that guy...he tripped and broke his leg. The cops got to the scene the same time I did...", Captain Wonderful says as he drinks his beer in the break room.)
I would also love to see more of a "Outer Limits" feel where the show doesn't always have to follow the same set of character, but can introduce new characters to tell a story and then let them fade into the background as other stories are being told. I understand that Hollywood needs to have contracts and that means persistent characters, however that seems to get in the way of a story like this where we need to see different viewpoints from lots of different characters.
Regardless, you can count on me being there when this rolls out.
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Another idea that I'm not sure would work but sounds good is to have the "sanctioned" comic montage for the "previously" segment...but have it be glaringly different than what actually happened "previously." (There was a South Park episode that was essentially a clip show, but each "clip" was different than what was originally broadcast. Regular viewers got it immediately. It was a scream.)
You could make it a running joke. In the episode right after the first one with a "previously" segment, you could have the characters in the show saying "Did you SEE that crap they put in the comic book? That is NOT how it happened at ALL." (Like kendelsmith said.)
Then after that, it would be kind of fun to see how the PR people twist reality to make the comic sell better.
Obviously, you'd have to use it sparingly or it would get old, but....I don't know, maybe I'm weird, but I think that would be neat. :)
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To the question that was asked about how to make a heroes show critically successful, well I think you need to look at another genre that tried to answer the same thing: sci fi.
For the longest time, sci-fi shows would have good popular demand but no critical demand. And I think this was the case because they made the sci-fi the centerpiece of the show. What broke the mold and crossed over into both sci-fi and critical acclaim was the reboot of Battlestar Galactica. And I think it did so precisely because it didn't focus on the science fiction - it focused on the dramatic elements of human life as they relate to the science fiction. The corollary to this is that the science fiction was rooted in real physics and math as much as possible - the fighters flew largely following the rules of real orbital mechanics, or at least much more real than something like Star Trek.
And I think that's the key element of why the Union Dues stories have been so popular. The super hero elements are very believable because they are rooted in the possible and not dreamed up just because of what sounds cool. That realism element allows the story to take place in a very realistic world and environment which then becomes the backdrop for the dramatic elements. And it is those dramatic story elements of how the characters react to this realistic super hero environment that makes the stories so damn good.
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the super-strategics (smarties) are really hard to write for. i mentioned this before in one of the ud threads but it bears repeating.
superpowers are mostly straight forward, if you say a dude can lift a car then the dude lifts a car, but super intelligence must be shown to be believed. if we're told that a character is so smart they have superhero status then they need to think of every possibility before we do. every time they're caught by surprise while they're searching a building because they forget to check the vents it breaks suspension of disbelief.
of course, this depends on what kind of show this is. plenty of successful shows are happy to designate a couple characters as 'smart' and then give them a pair of glasses and have them use the occasional scientific word. csi built multiple shows around being smart when their science is actually garbage.
but if the show is shooting for some level of realism then it's worth double checking the smarties' actions every episode. particularly if there are going to be multiple script writers, an editor that makes sure Skeleton Steele isn't missing the obvious could make all the difference.
played realistically, there's an interesting dynamic between the telepathic & strategic supers. the union uses the telepaths to mindwipe & control their members but the strategics that figure this out (which they will) can start taking steps to counter it. computers with deadman switches will send them emails or their reports will have coded messages in them. in order for the mindwipes to have any chance of working their minds will need to be turned against themselves with orders like, 'think of any way you may be reminded of this event and come up with a way to prevent it from happening.'
the best example of a superstrategic battle i can think of is in deathnote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Note), L is an excellent example of superintelligence played well.
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There are a ton of things that differentiate "Union Dues" from traditional superhero-type TV shows and films, mostly because the concept is really, really different.
"Union Dues" isn't so much about superheroes as it is about people who have terrible jobs. And jobs that they can't quit, to boot. It's a story about folks who were forced to relinquish every other ambition and dream they had, as well as family, friends, house, and home for the sake of working for an extra-governmental organization they hate at worst or tolerate at best.
It's a story about the child soldiers who don't die. It's about folks who struggle to form any sort of identity, much less a secret one.
And it's about a world where people with powers aren't revered, but rather feared. The Union exists to protect those with powers, not those without.
It's an inversion of most every superhero trope. "Union Dues" can work in the way that shows about other civil servants who hate their jobs work. It also carries the running plot of the Union itself, a morally-complex organization.
It's a bad thing that the Union exists, but the alternatives may be even worse.
No superhero TV show will ever fly without villains with powers, and where those guys come in is in the moral gray area. The Union appropriates its own personnel, but what about governments, powerful groups, and others? Children with powers are a commodity to be fought over, which is truly interesting, especially because the Union's indoctrination may not be as good as that of the other groups.
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i went back and relistened to a couple of ud stories and found that the superstrategic issues in my last post are pretty much ignored in this universe. at best, the smarties have some savant-like abilities that activate when they think to turn them on. the first person perspective from superstrategic characters gave no real indication of exceptional intelligence. actually, the characters seemed like a couple of schlubs unable to take any initiative. completely counter to their assigned roles in the group.
this could be accounted for by retcon. the pyramids are afraid of low level members exposing the union's dark side so they're pummeled with telepathic commands that make them pliant, almost to the point of making them useless. alternatively this is the way that the super-strategics are supposed to work (savant-like skills that aren't always active) which is fine so long as you let us know that's how things work. that also makes the value of smarties questionable at best.
i took a closer look at one story, cleanup in aisle five (http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1550.0), to see how i would have represented superstrategy in the character. this isn't something i'd normally do, especially when i'm not sure about the author's intentions, but since opinions were solicited i'll give it a go.
when dealing with any type of superintelligence the reader should be given the sense that an enormous amount of information is being processed even when the story doesn't explicitly say so. a good way to do this is to give a few early examples that show the character's abilities & tendencies so we have that impression. for example:
"Skeleton Steele noticed that keiko cameras weren't fully stocked despite super-mart's policy of giving grand openings the first access to the national supply. since global weather patterns have been relatively calm over the pacific there shouldn't have been any problem with delivery, a good indication of a disruption in manufacturing.
Steele made a mental note to check keiko's supply & labor situation, if they weren't having trouble then there they may be scaling back production for a new product launch. either way, keiko's stock value was moving towards crisis and the opportunity & danger that represented."
doing this once or twice shows his intelligence instead of just telling us he's smart. this example also exposes one of the background problems in this universe, why does the union hurt for money when it has dozens of people that can play the stock market like a child's game? the union doesn't strike me as too moral to set up dummy corporations.
an example of Steele's totally passive nature came when he was directed to his card table & misspelled sign. he was aware of his camouflage, why didn't he use it?
"Steele was well trained in the theory cryptic camouflage, there were times when his life depended on it, but right now it provided a comprehensive list of rules he needed to break to attract attention. he went to the store's toy section and collected a variety of brightly coloured union bubble packs, concentrating on the heroes who's colour scheme complemented each other and contrasted with his own drab grey. five minutes later he had them arrayed across the table and shelving, creating lines that naturally drew the eye towards him."
this is one situation where a superstrategic showed less understanding & initiative than a corporate drone. additionally, superstrategics should be taken by surprise only very rarely. when you're in first person this can be represented by the character expecting many events before they happen:
"Steele noted the table's location in relation to the doors and main aisles, if he had to choose a bad location for his display this was one of the worst. he was out of sight of the customer's eyeline but still taking up space where a lot of people would be walking. people would try to turn right into the table as they came around the corner.
he eyed the manager carefully, unsure if the placement was an intentional slight or just incompetence. seconds later he decided he didn't care enough to find out. either the manager would be surprised by the traffic problems and move him somewhere better or the manager would use it as an excuse to get angry at him. he'd deal when it happened."
a superstrategic would be like Bourne sitting in the diner and knowing that the waitress was left handed, the locations of all five exits (including windows) and the most likely place to find a gun. most store layouts and fire escape placement would be mildly frustrating because they could see better ways to arrange things.
but the part that struck me as most contrary to superstrategic nature was his reaction when, outside, one of the kids that were taunting him came back and asked for a signature. there was only two possible situations there, the kid genuinely wanted a signature but was embarrassed to get one in front of his friends or he was a distraction for an ambush. and even if he genuinely wanted the signature there was a real chance that his friends saw him come back and would come back as well.
either way, it was a situation of hightened danger that the superstrategic was completely oblivious to. the superstrategic. the guy who's superpower it is to read situations and anticipate actions. we are given the impression that the superpowers in this universe are real but i have a hard time believing that the superstrategics have real powers in the stories so far.
debatably this is a pretty minor problem, certainly it seems like this isn't something that many people notice, but i'd argue that it creates a major problem for the people who do notice it. one of union dues' main themes is trying to create idolized, comic characters in a messy, morally ambiguous world. in order for that realistic world to be created properly the hero's superpowers need to written to interact naturally with it. if powers stop working when it's convenient for the plot then it stops being superheroes in a realistic world and becomes superheroes in a dark world. less watchmen and more judge dredd.
all this is to say that superstrategics are an unexpectedly difficult element to include in a world. they have wide-reaching, unintuitive results and puts writers into the position where they need to think of everything before the audience does in order to maintain suspension disbelief. it's not a decision to take lightly.
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A good example of super strategy was in the new Sherlock Holmes movie when he calculated the procedure and outcome of his fights before they happened. Maybe on episodes focusing on strategists you could explore a similar vein of cinematics.
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Speaking of the cinematics of superstrategy, I can think of two examples that would be a neat way to show it happening in a compact way without too much extra effort.
In the movie Stranger than Fiction, the main character played by Will Ferrell is obsessed by numbers. He continually counts things and calculates things. The way they chose to show this was, in my opinion, brilliant: as he walked around, his counts and calculations were superimposed on the screen. He'd walk across the street toward a building, and each step was numbered as he made it. He was waiting for a bus and the bus schedule would be overlaid on the screen. There are tons of examples in the movie.
The other way is to switch to a superstrategic's POV for a few seconds and just show their point of focus as, say, a blinking bull's-eye on things he's noticing or including in his calculations. Rapid-fire, like he'd notice it. Then have him analyze it and only deliver his solution, not his entire reasoning. If you have someone question it, he could launch into a rapid-fire explanation.
But I agree with deflective: a superstrategic would never be surprised unless something COMPLETELY unforeseen should occur, and even then, he'd be the first to react. A superstrategic character would look almost prophetic or clairevoyant.
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"Union Dues" isn't so much about superheroes as it is about people who have terrible jobs. And jobs that they can't quit, to boot. It's a story about folks who were forced to relinquish every other ambition and dream they had, as well as family, friends, house, and home for the sake of working for an extra-governmental organization they hate at worst or tolerate at best.
This made me think that there could be an episode somewhere in the middle, a la "Epitaph One" (Dollhouse), where we see Antarctica, where all the supers who didn't join the Union and didn't escape ended up.
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I'd say depict the superstrategists the way they do in the stories: vaugely Batman-ish heroes (dark, less eye-catching costumes; reliance on cunning and gadgets) that give out orders and are usually team leaders or the right hands of the team leader. Their costumes/personas don't seem to be based around intellect either. Darksider, Emerald Blaze, Skeleton Steele, and so on. Of course despite Steele's bit of narration about the costumes of strategists, Emerald Blaze's name would suggest that "non-eye-catching" is not a hard and fast rule.
The Union seems to go out of their way to give each super an individual and distinct costume and persona, make them into a character, but beneath that skin-deep layer they seem to be treated like interchangeable parts; several codified tactical roles. Of course there are exceptions, like the solo missions that show up in the stories a little.
The fact that they're a bunch of highly trained professionals in body armor working together as a team should help the costumes work. And when you have a single hero in the spotlight, narratively depicted as more comicbooky, sheer characterization should pull off the feat.
Also, what will overall make the costumes work is how important they are to the story. Inside the Pyramids Union members have to wear domino masks at all times, even when they're alone in their rooms. How creepy is that?
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Like it or not, in the American cultural lexicon, superhero costumes = kids and geeks (Power Rangers, Cartoons, etc). Geeks as a demographic, don't really represent well on the Neilsen, tending to use the internet to watch videos. You can argue the validity of ratings if you want, but I have a feeling that's what the TV execs are going to look at. I think these (perception & rating) are going to be the biggest hurdles.
Looking at the 800gounion website, I like the theme of "the union" as a bad corporate entity. I think there's promise of using spoofy/ironic "go union" commercial in the theme of Starship Troopers or Battlestar Galactica. That's be a good way to introducing costumed superheroes in a non-kids-show kind of way, and instantly communicates what the show will be about. I also think the lighting and coloring of the Watchmen movie was good in communicating that this isn't some golden-age-era superhero show.
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i've written union dues fanfic! hope it's your first.
this is the opening act for a pilot episode that combines all that we leave behind & off white lies. by starting with these two stories there are two staple superhero tropes: an origin story and a superpower battle. only the fight from off white lies is included in the pilot, the first season story arc will be an investigation of the battle under the radar by the main characters. the goal is the characters' (and audience's) gradual disillusionment in the union as the season progresses until the revelation in the finale that the union created & killed the supervillians.
[Mod: Story edited out at request of Author]
also, saw this (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mckitten/4311818435/) and thought of Kinetic Girl:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4009/4311818435_d1a9ee9ed0.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mckitten/4311818435/)
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While I am flattered that you've taken the time to write this, please don't create Union Dues fanfiction, there are rights issues with this intellectual property that fanfiction severely complicates. So I'm asking nicely, please don't write more. I've asked the mods to remove the story as well. Hope you understand.
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fan art still okay?
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fan art still okay?
Art, i.e. drawing, multimedia, that sort of stuff is fine. But please no fan fiction.
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While I am flattered that you've taken the time to write this, please don't create Union Dues fanfiction, there are rights issues with this intellectual property that fanfiction severely complicates. So I'm asking nicely, please don't write more. I've asked the mods to remove the story as well. Hope you understand.
i don't really understand but i'm not vested enough to be upset if that's what you mean. the only thing that irritates me at all is that you felt that you needed to get a moderator to edit my post instead of asking directly.
out of curiosity, there's a legal difference between people giving plot ideas in an open forum and people giving plot examples?
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fan art still okay?
That isn't fan art either, it's something unrelated deflective found on the net - actually it's a character study done for a webcomic some friends of mine are putting together. Should be fantastic when it comes out!
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While I am flattered that you've taken the time to write this, please don't create Union Dues fanfiction, there are rights issues with this intellectual property that fanfiction severely complicates. So I'm asking nicely, please don't write more. I've asked the mods to remove the story as well. Hope you understand.
i don't really understand but i'm not vested enough to be upset if that's what you mean. the only thing that irritates me at all is that you felt that you needed to get a moderator to edit my post instead of asking directly.
My guess is that it was quicker and easier to have a mod do it than wait for you to come back on. Chill, pickle.
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While I am flattered that you've taken the time to write this, please don't create Union Dues fanfiction, there are rights issues with this intellectual property that fanfiction severely complicates. So I'm asking nicely, please don't write more. I've asked the mods to remove the story as well. Hope you understand.
i don't really understand but i'm not vested enough to be upset if that's what you mean. the only thing that irritates me at all is that you felt that you needed to get a moderator to edit my post instead of asking directly.
My guess is that it was quicker and easier to have a mod do it than wait for you to come back on. Chill, pickle.
Basically, it was less complicated for me to go in and quickly edit it out instead of waiting for you to come back online. I did email you about it (at the email on your forum profile) at around the same time, but in these situations it's better to get it down quicker.
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While I am flattered that you've taken the time to write this, please don't create Union Dues fanfiction, there are rights issues with this intellectual property that fanfiction severely complicates.
Let me start by saying that I'm all for this Union Dues on TV venture, and would hate for anything to complicate it, and I am glad you were so pleasant when asking that fanfiction be removed from this forum. Also, I realize that this is a private forum, and not any one person's blog or website, which means the moderators and owner(s) have the right to remove anything as they see fit. Further, my question is only out of curiosity, wanting more information, and NOT a "who do you think you are" thing, or anything like that. I'm on your side. ;D
My question is, how does fanfiction complicate things (if you can tell us)? Is it because it's not an established TV production yet? (The paperwork isn't signed yet.) I see fanfiction online all the time for works like Harry Potter, Buffy, Star Trek, etc., which doesn't seem to have any legal repercussions. What makes this different?
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While I am flattered that you've taken the time to write this, please don't create Union Dues fanfiction, there are rights issues with this intellectual property that fanfiction severely complicates.
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My question is, how does fanfiction complicate things (if you can tell us)? Is it because it's not an established TV production yet? (The paperwork isn't signed yet.) I see fanfiction online all the time for works like Harry Potter, Buffy, Star Trek, etc., which doesn't seem to have any legal repercussions. What makes this different?
There are a few basic problems here. The first is that DeRego likely doesn't have sole ownership of the Union Dues rights anymore, and so probably couldn't authorize it on his own. The second problem is that if a fanfic were posted that resembled a story that one of the show's writers did on their own the show would be open to lawsuit over it (one of the shows in Babylon 5's first season was killed due to a similar spec script coming in, and I think Trek has had a few lawsuits over the years with these issues). Especially given that this thread was created on behalf of the people trying to make a TV show it would be dubious if they claimed to have never seen it.
Now, there is a lot of fan fiction out there off of already created shows, and most of it the original content creators let it be because the shows are over it would be an enormous hassle to go after the tens of thousands of fan fiction stories. Some have fairly explicit hands off policies — like Lucasfilm — for not going after it, but I'm certain there's been a lot of work done to ensure that writers for the upcoming and ongoing Star Wars TV shows aren't exposed to fan fiction.
Edit to add: These are fairly good sum-ups (http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/author-responds-to-salinger-lawsuit/) of a related case (http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/06/02/a-closer-look-at-the-jd-salinger-lawsuit/tab/article/) where someone wrote a sequel to Catcher in the Rye, and the late J.D. Salinger sued over it before he was late.
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The difference is primarily that he's here, reading what's posted. Therefore, if the show used an idea similar to what you wrote, you could reasonably claim that he stole your idea. Usually when fanfic is being posted somewhere, the various authors avoid the spots where it's posted.
Also, fan fic is never really okay legally. It is using creator's intellectual property. Some creators personally mind, some don't - but legally they can't just allow it and still claim sole rights to the characters. Of course, fan fic is impossible to stop, and few creators want to alienate their biggest fans by actively trying to shut it down. But at a minimum it needs to be off somewhere that the creator can avoid it.
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fan art still okay?
That isn't fan art either, it's something unrelated deflective found on the net - actually it's a character study done for a webcomic some friends of mine are putting together. Should be fantastic when it comes out!
Oh I know, the question was if making fan art was okay. I know that the piece in deflective's post isn't anything to worry about.
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if fanfic were posted that resembled a story that one of the show's writers did on their own the show would be open to lawsuit over it
this is what i assumed but this is a thread where they're literally asking us to post plot ideas. there must be a legal distinction between laying out a plot in point form and actually writing character dialogue.
i wasn't trying to be snarky before, i genuinely don't understand where the line is and have an interest in the television making processes.
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if fanfic were posted that resembled a story that one of the show's writers did on their own the show would be open to lawsuit over it
this is what i assumed but this is a thread where they're literally asking us to post plot ideas. there must be a legal distinction between laying out a plot in point form and actually writing character dialogue.
i wasn't trying to be snarky before, i genuinely don't understand where the line is and have an interest in the television making processes.
I think it's not so much that there are clear legal distinctions, but more that there aren't. Rather, it's more that if it does come to court, both sides will be trying to present their contribution as substantial. Remember, all that Jeff has done, so far, is write stories in the UD universe. Thus, from a certainly (albeit skewed) perspective, if you write a story in this universe, you could make the point that you have had equal contribution. That's what they need to prevent. They do run the risk of someone else on this thread writing bulletpoints and taking them to court over that - but the risk there must be much smaller.
And note that this is not exactly a thread soliciting for plot ideas. Doug made a specific list of requests:
1. fan art
2. suggestions
3. favorite characters
4. comments on the success/failure of other superhero themed shows.
Note that plot points are not mentioned; there is a blanket request for "suggestions", but I think it's worth keeping in mind that plot points were not specifically asked for.
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Talk about costumes, endings, story elements, arcs and plots, actors you think fit certain parts, etc... All of that is more than welcome, it's solicited! Keep it coming!
note that i talked very generally until this post and even then only wrote a couple paragraphs of narrative at a time before posting a full act. it's definitely possible that this is a case of jrderego pulling the plug when he felt uncomfortable, that's his prerogative, but it feels like a line was crossed at some point and if it's a legal line that's something i'd be interested to know.
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Talk about costumes, endings, story elements, arcs and plots, actors you think fit certain parts, etc... All of that is more than welcome, it's solicited! Keep it coming!
note that i talked very generally until this post and even then only wrote a couple paragraphs of narrative at a time before posting a full act. it's definitely possible that this is a case of jrderego pulling the plug when he felt uncomfortable, that's his prerogative, but it feels like a line was crossed at some point and if it's a legal line that's something i'd be interested to know.
I just want to step in make it clear that deflective is not on trial here. Everyone knows that only the best of intentions were the desire.
As far as a line, I don't believe there is a hard and fast line where fan fiction is concerned. One might venture to say the line is between a suggestion like "I think it would be really cool if you combined these two story lines" to actually writing narrative and dialog, but that would just be one opinion.
Fan fiction is kind of a black box. Nobody really knows what could come out of it, but the potential for trouble and litigation is waiting there like a "snake in a can" gag. The best rationale I've heard for not writing fan fiction is that it's the best way to insure that your idea will never see the light of day.
Remember this is new territory for Mr. DeRego, too. He's excited about the prospects and wants to engage us as a fan base. He didn't really anticipate a "line not to be crossed". We, as fans, are also excited about the prospects, and want to contribute to something we believe in. Just like deflective said, that contribution got to a point where Mr. DeRego felt uneasy. Now a line has been recognized and labeled. At least that's my take on it.
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Fanfiction hardly belongs here, but I don't think anyone can just say "no fanfiction" and it actually mean anything, or else there would be no fanfiction of major network television shows.
The tendency of more insular fandoms where creators come down and meddle among the fans often to feel like they somehow have a right or ability to stop this is a hot button subject, with me anyway. And I really don't like disrupting threads, but this is a forum on the internet so I couldn't really think of a good reason for not expressing my opinion.
Because opinions about the potential show are being listened to here by the people who might make that show happen, I'm glad that something that would disconnect that interaction is not occurring. But as a general principle, I think expecting one's fandom to respect one's wishes for no fanfiction just because it's a more closely knit fandom than other things is quite unfair; and to be honest, not realistic. If anyone was going to successfully shut down fanfiction, the major networks would of killed fanfiction.net and related places years ago through lawsuits.
So the idea that Jeffrey R. DeRego or Matthew Wayne Selznick (love Brave Men Run but he tried to do the same thing with his fandom) can somehow swoop down and change all that is rather wrongheaded and is really an example of over-closeness in a fandom...on behalf of a creator instead of a fan, oddly enough.
I never want the creator of something I like to be so approachable as to think they can ask me for favors, as I certainly wouldn't do that to them.
Maybe this is not the kind of thing anyone wants to here in this place at this time, but if I didn't stick with my opinion and express it I wouldn't be the person that I am.
I really think those sorts of personalized requests that break the unspoken conventions of media are very unprofessional and cross over a line. There is a line and you don't want fans crossing it so as an author you should not cross it either.
Just my opinion, and I hope I've stated it in a civil manner.
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This may already be covered, since it looks like UD would have a pretty strong web presence, but bonus content on the UD website would be awsome. Out takes from filming, concept art, interviews with J. Derego himself, character bios, and maybe even webcomics, maybe running story lines parallel to the TV series.
I honestly don't know how feasible any of that is, but I'd love to see it. I think it would help keep the UD fan community strong and involved.
Can't wait till the website goes live!
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It occurs to me that if it is made into a series, you could hardly find a better example of how a series creator interacted with his fans than J. Michael Straczynski (creator of Babylon 5). :)
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Just my opinion, and I hope I've stated it in a civil manner.
You have, but you're ignoring two factors:
A - First, Union Dues is not a major television franchise. It's a deal in planning. At the moment it's a lot more fragile. Fanfic for a major tv franchise may be a minor annoyance to its creators, here it can actually sabotage the deal.
B - This isn't some random corner of the internet, it is a thread created by the creators in a forum run by their friends. If anyone wanted to create Union Dues fanfic and post it to their personal blog, or to a fanfic website, then I doubt there would be any reaction. Jeff Derego can't stop fanfiction, whether or not he wants to, but he can - and has every right to - stop fanfiction here.
(And note, by the way, that I don't think Deflective did anything wrong, and I didn't mean to imply that in my earlier posts. I was just trying to explain why I think the "no fanfic" policy is a reasonable and sound one)
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While I appreciate everyone's take on things, and most of it sounds reasonable, I find it interesting that everyone EXCEPT Jeff replied.
As an added note, I have nothing but respect for those of you who can call yourselves authors, whether amateur or professional. Writing fiction, fan or otherwise, is something I've never been able to do
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Megaton
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/65673990.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1266119137&Signature=65JKqTKzHjgZr%2Bc2iQgaz1wFxN8%3D)
Mod:Fixed.
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Megaton
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/65673990.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1266119137&Signature=65JKqTKzHjgZr%2Bc2iQgaz1wFxN8%3D)
Mod:Fixed.
I see a question mark now. :(
Here is the shortened URL for the twitpic page. Sorry for any confusion this may be causing.
http://twitpic.com/133mdi
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Megaton
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/65673990.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1266119137&Signature=65JKqTKzHjgZr%2Bc2iQgaz1wFxN8%3D)
Mod:Fixed.
I see a question mark now. :(
Here is the shortened URL for the twitpic page. Sorry for any confusion this may be causing.
http://twitpic.com/133mdi
Ah, ok. Twitpic does a thing where they expire the url for the Jpgs after a short time. Annoying.
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That. Was. So. Cool.
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I squee'd
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Kinetic Girl
http://twitpic.com/15hp6o
Comments welcome :)
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OK, you ALMOST made me squee with those pics.
And I don't squee...
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I didn't squee.
What I did do, however, was say, "Holy s**t! That's amazing!"
And then I realized I was still at work.
Oops. :)
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I squeed
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I squeed as well. The pics so far are looking amazing. Can't wait to see the finished product
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I squeed as well. The pics so far are looking amazing. Can't wait to see the finished product
There are some other images coming soon. I've seen one of the other finished ones from this artist and it looks amazing - for you guys it'll be a character that's only had one line in all of the Union Dues stories, but he's a critical player in the series vision, the whole storyline of a tale named "A Handshake, A Gold Watch, A Candle" is going to provide a first season story arc and the main characters from that story are the main characters, i.e. the First Team, for the whole first season.
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I know I'm incredibly late to this thread, but I just heard about it and wanted to contribute at least a little bit.
Union Dues would be compelling because it has something that I like - the superheroes, the powers, etc - but that's the sideshow. The main event is people wrestling with situations they aren't prepared for, weighing difficult ethical choices, and trying to exist in a power structure that is both necessary for the society that built it to function, and totally screwed up on so many levels.
Build a show around that - similar to the wire, or even something like rescue me. Show us folks doing a difficult job and dealing with the fallout. Sure, they have the powers and stuff, but treat those as a minor effect. An episode where someone has to come and take a baby away from a family that loves it - and arguably, it's the right choice - holy crap, that would be compelling.
I'm a geek, and while I love me some incredibly detailed pseudo-science explanation of how everything works, don't do that. The people are the thing to focus on.
To answer the original question that was asked - the costumey hero shows have failed because they *were* juvenile. The heroes only encountered problems that could be solved with the special effects budget that the show had available.
For union dues, you want to show that the problems that can be solved with powers are often the easiest and simplest things the characters need to deal with in any given episode. It would be a whole different ball of wax, and one I would really love to watch.
Thanks for the great stories - I hope you get to write some more. I'm pulling for you. :-)
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Johnny Proton! Enjoy! (I totally love this one)
http://twitpic.com/17l6dy
Art by Tariq Raheem.
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Wow! Another great image. I managed not to exclaim out loud at work, this time. I kept it inside. :)
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Wow! Another great image. I managed not to exclaim out loud at work, this time. I kept it inside. :)
:)
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These are really looking good. Can't wait to see more
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This artist is great! I'm loving these updates!
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gar!
i have to run off and re-listen to all the UD now!
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good greef! i had forgoton how many of theas EP had published :-)
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Only just now listened to the ep where this was announced, so I'm late; also, I haven't yet read through the whole thread, so I'm probably repeating things people have said elsewhere. But I want to get my thoughts down before I lose them, so here you go. :-)
To me, a successful superhero story would find a balance somewhere between (say) the old Adam West Batman show and Heroes. Batman, of course, belonged to an older period of TV, where shows were usually purely episodic -- as my friends and I kept saying for Smallville, "what happens in the previous episode stays in the previous episode." These days you need growth and change and arc plot to keep people interested. BUT! Heroes, I think, shows how this can go wrong. Certain characters "grew" by getting more powerful, and the problem with that is, it can easily become silly; they start looking like Mary Sues/Gary Stus, and the scale of threat needed to cause trouble for them ends up being so over-the-top it's just not engaging anymore. Also, the show overlapped its various narrative threads so thoroughly that very few episodes felt like they provided any degree of closure; I enjoyed Heroes (for a while, anyway), but I don't think I could name off a single specific episode I'd go back and watch. Because none of them stand out from the rest.
The example I would pick, though it's from a totally different genre, is Supernatural. That show has its own problems -- missteps on the race and gender fronts, for example -- but the professional writer in me is deeply admiring of the way they balance Monster of the Week-ness against long-term growth. Most episodes are relatively self-contained narratives, but contain material that builds both character change and arc plot over the course of five seasons. And it does a nice job with the power curve, less for the protagonists (who mostly are just highly-trained humans) than for the threats they face, such that by S5 they've built to a pretty epic pitch without ever making a jump that seems unreasonable. They also manage, though not always quite successfully, to keep enough humour in to leaven the otherwise constantly-darkening narrative.
I've only heard about half of the Union Dues stories, so I don't have a particularly strong opinion on which specific characters should show up, etc, but I *can* say that character in general would be the thing that draws me in. An ensemble (a small one, not the giant and ever-growing herd of Heroes) with a strong dynamic, where the external threats they face both reflect and drive the characters' growth and change over time . . . I am THERE. I far prefer that to the solo-hero style of Batman or Superman. Heroes almost managed it, but never quite pulled together firmly enough for me to really get engaged.
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I can't find the Union Dues Fan Page on Facebook?...Is it still there? Is the dream dead?
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Here (http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=208365675635) is a link the Union Dues FB group page. My last update was March 11.
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Here (http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=208365675635) is a link the Union Dues FB group page. My last update was March 11.
I'll see if I can get Doug to be more active. There isn't much to report at the moment, commissioned artwork is coming in slowly, and pitch materials are being assembled. I've written two more Union Dues stories that need additional editing. The Union Dues website, 1800gounion.com is coming along slowly.
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Darksider (from the Union Dues Facebook group)
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4461453&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=208365675635&aid=-1&oid=208365675635&id=504941296
"Darksider: Super Strategist and member of the “Special Services” division- a department which handles intelligence and internal affairs for The Union of Superhumans. Shrouded in mystery, Darksider seems to have the ability to be almost anywhere, at any given time. Darksider's “Special Services” is as terrifying as the KGB, and as protective as mom and dad."
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The Union Dues website is live at www.1800gounion.com!
Go Union!
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awesome. Looks great.
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awesome. Looks great.
Thanks! Once they found the right web-guy it came together quickly :)
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The Union Dues website is live at www.1800gounion.com!
Go Union!
Great site!!
One minor issue... In the Contact Us web page, there is no option for "I am manifesting Superhuman abilities" in the Subject dropdown list. One would expect to see something like that, considering the banner subheading "Feeling different?...We may want to speak with you." Or are we to assume that at this point in Union history, no one would actually join voluntarily???
Sorry, my software tester background is showing ;)
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The Union Dues website is live at www.1800gounion.com!
Go Union!
Great site!!
One minor issue... In the Contact Us web page, there is no option for "I am manifesting Superhuman abilities" in the Subject dropdown list. One would expect to see something like that, considering the banner subheading "Feeling different?...We may want to speak with you." Or are we to assume that at this point in Union history, no one would actually join voluntarily???
Sorry, my software tester background is showing ;)
Normals typically manifest as kids. So their parents, neighbors, or principals would be obligated to make contact. There are other ways to self identify that are not related to The Union website. ;)
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Darksider (from the Union Dues Facebook group)
I realize that the Darksider character has NOTHING in common with the Darkseid character, but aren't you worried about some flak over that name?
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Darksider (from the Union Dues Facebook group)
I realize that the Darksider character has NOTHING in common with the Darkseid character, but aren't you worried about some flak over that name?
No
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Darksider (from the Union Dues Facebook group)
I realize that the Darksider character has NOTHING in common with the Darkseid character, but aren't you worried about some flak over that name?
No
A very Steve-Jobs-ian response. :)
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Darksider (from the Union Dues Facebook group)
I realize that the Darksider character has NOTHING in common with the Darkseid character, but aren't you worried about some flak over that name?
No
A very Steve-Jobs-ian response. :)
Thanks :)
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OMG It's JR Derego! on the fourum :O *mini freakout* oh wow. fangirl moment.....I'll go now...
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OMG It's JR Derego! on the fourum :O *mini freakout* oh wow. fangirl moment.....I'll go now...
LOL, no need to freak out.
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Oh man, I would LOVE to see this TV show! I'm rooting for you Mr. Derego!
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Oh man, I would LOVE to see this TV show! I'm rooting for you Mr. Derego!
Thanks Clutron, as of May 17th, I've resold the option rights to the same guys. They are doing some social media stuff at the moment and trying to generate interest.
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Sorry for the thread necromancy but just wondering what the status is on Union Dues coming to TV?
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Sorry for the thread necromancy but just wondering what the status is on Union Dues coming to TV?
Deader 'n Elvis
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:-(
Would've been better'n "Alphas." And "Heroes" because it wouldn't have taken the crazytrain to Noplotsville in its second season.
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Sorry for the thread necromancy but just wondering what the status is on Union Dues coming to TV?
Deader 'n Elvis
:'( i has a sad. I suppose between Arrow and AoS (which has also had some missteps) they feel they have more than enough comic book superhero types on TV. Too bad.
Well good luck on your continued writings.
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Sorry to hear that. Do the rights revert back so you can try again later?
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Sorry to hear that. Do the rights revert back so you can try again later?
Yes, the rights were sold only for a relatively short period of time. I have them now. I also have the rights to all the stuff I wrote in support of that effort, the film script, and teleplay, TV series treatment etc... I'll probably convert some of that into more short stories at some point. Who knows, maybe one of the tens of people who bought my book Escape Clause is a Hollywood producer and it'll shamble back to life like a superhero zombie.