Escape Artists

Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Swamp on July 08, 2010, 06:33:11 AM

Title: EP248: Spar
Post by: Swamp on July 08, 2010, 06:33:11 AM
EP248: Spar (http://escapepod.org/2010/07/08/ep248-spar/)

By Kij Johnson  (http://www.kijjohnson.com/)

Read by Kate Baker of Clarkesworld Magazine (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/)

Originally published in: Clarkesworld (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/) — Download and read the text (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/johnson_10_09/)

The alien is not humanoid. It is not bipedal. It has cilia. It has no bones, or perhaps it does and she cannot feel them. Its muscles, or what might be muscles, are rings and not strands. Its skin is the color of dusk and covered with a clear thin slime that tastes of snot. It makes no sounds. She thinks it smells like wet leaves in winter, but after a time she cannot remember that smell, or leaves, or winter.

Its Ins and Outs change. There are dark slashes and permanent knobs that sometimes distend, but it is always growing new Outs, hollowing new Ins. It cleaves easily in both senses.

It penetrates her a thousand ways. She penetrates it, as well.


Rated X.  Graphic language and sexual situations. Not for kids. Seriously.

(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://c2.libsyn.com/media/18601/EP248_Spar.mp3?nvb=20100708061644&nva=20100709062644&sid=66277b243b6015f1b2f206e550dfc1a7&t=0c4c3edc3b011a4572ccb)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 08, 2010, 01:39:22 PM
Man, this story even made it to Metafilter (where a lot of people didn't get it at all.)

I'm eager to hear the audio version.  The print version really stuck with me.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: KenK on July 08, 2010, 03:50:10 PM
Even creepier than Bridesicle was. If this one wins a Hugo it will both elevate and degrade the whole process at the same time. A win for Spar would be like a triple-X porn film winning an Oscar. Interesting times we live in.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 08, 2010, 04:08:56 PM
 :o

..."Spar" is not pornography. 

Pornography is intended to titillate.  One consumes pornography for a sexual thrill.  "Spar" is not about titillating or eroticizing much of anything.  The presence of the word "fuck" and the act of sex does not make something erotic or sexual.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: KenK on July 08, 2010, 05:04:46 PM
@ Scattercat
I never said it was porn. I said it was creepy, which IMHO it is.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Yargling on July 08, 2010, 08:10:31 PM
No comment on the story this week as I decided to skip this one and just listen to the meta - Only comment to add about the meta is that I would not accept the word of Orson Scott Card without backing from somewhere else when it comes to matters of sex as the man is an extremely active homophobe.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: gelee on July 08, 2010, 09:45:36 PM
First, nice reading by Kate Baker.  I've only started listening to their 'cast recently, so I hadn't heard this before.
The story itself, while a nicley crafted piece of writing, just didn't have enough 'story' for my tastes.  To me, it seemed more of a thought experiment than an actual story.  I kept waiting or something to happen, and then the piece ended.  The premise is utterly horrifying, and I think it would have been right at home over at PP.
I understand that the MC had been more or less stripped of personality, and nearly her mind, by her ordeal, but what was left wasn't much of a character, awful as her situation was.  Gary was certainly the lucky one.  I might have been able to connect to the story better if it had started before the collision, but as it was, everything was pretty much done by the time we see the scenario.  So, a well written scene, but it just doesn't hit me as a story.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Heradel on July 08, 2010, 10:02:46 PM
If this one wins a Hugo it will both elevate and degrade the whole process at the same time. A win for Spar would be like a triple-X porn film winning an Oscar.
@ Scattercat
I never said it was porn. I said it was creepy, which IMHO it is.

Er, you didn't? Kinda reads like you did.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: ElectricPaladin on July 08, 2010, 10:55:59 PM
Wow, that was the least sexy story about sex that I have ever heard, and I've heard a lot of stories about sex, sexy and otherwise. Wow.

But, of course, it wasn't really about sex. It was about love and grief and communication and alienness. This is definitely a beautiful-ugly story, in the tradition of some of the best science fiction has offered, and I loved it. I think the only thing I didn't like - the only thing I would have done differently - is the end. I think the story would have been stronger if the character had gotten herself out of her mess rather than simply being rescued. I kept on waiting for her to find a way to turn the endless fucking into communication and win her own way free.

The ending the author chose was probably better for the kind of story it really was - a character study of a person in utmost extremity and an exploration of what sex really is, with everything else stripped away. For all that I loved the story for what it was, I think I would have liked it better if it had been something else.

Though to be fair, this might be THIS is a Hugo-award winning story and I'M still working on making that first sale...  :-[.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: alllie on July 09, 2010, 12:39:47 AM
I really can't decide how I feel about this story. Would I like it if I was into porn? What was it really about? When an alien does a probe is it sex or research?
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: heyes on July 09, 2010, 02:07:59 AM
First of all:
Mur, thank you so very much for putting a meaningful advisory at the head of this episode.  It was great to be a little prepared for what was to come (no pun intended).
This is a hugo nominee so what does my opinion bring to bear?  Not much I imagine.

That being said, the concept was interesting, deeply interesting. It skirted the edge of being needlessly graphic and crossed back and forth over that edge regularly.  After the concept was made clear, it became repetitive. For my taste would have made a much better flash.  This bizarre timeless moment of mutual (rape? fornication? combat? desperation? comfort?) is stretched too far, but would have been rendered too graphic if we knew more about either character.

That being said I very much enjoyed the exploration of what is suggested to be alien sexuality, and is certainly alien anatomy.  I dig non-bipedal aliens, what can I say.

For the record, from my reading (listening) this is a story that starts with rape and moves forward from there - regardless of the unreliable narrator's claim to be otherwise.

2 cents? paid.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on July 09, 2010, 02:10:56 AM
If this one wins a Hugo it will both elevate and degrade the whole process at the same time. A win for Spar would be like a triple-X porn film winning an Oscar.
@ Scattercat
I never said it was porn. I said it was creepy, which IMHO it is.

Er, you didn't? Kinda reads like you did.

Not to me.  To me it read like an analogy that used porn as a comparator.

I'm not sure that it was a good analogy, given what KenK said.  I can see how a triple-X porn film winning an Oscar would degrade the process, but not how it would elevate it.  An analogy should illustrate your point and this one doesn't, really.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on July 09, 2010, 02:42:52 AM
Wow, that was something alright. A really rather startling, and beautiful in a way, juxtaposition of the crudeness of their act with the protagonist's grief and her sense of losing herself. I think Im gonna like this one the more I think about it. I see why it took home the Nebula. (though I'm still rooting for Bridecicle personally - that one had more of an emotional effect on me).

Oh and man - "When she does not have enough Ins for its Outs, it makes new ones. "

That line just made me go "............ACK! Holy crap."

The ending is a bit abrupt, but Ive decided I liked it. Its, I think, hopeful. She doesn't surrender and continue to fade to nothing. She has her chance to regain some measure of separate identity and seizes it.

Weird, awesome story.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: kibitzer on July 09, 2010, 04:12:30 AM
(where a lot of people didn't get it at all.)

...meaning? Not sure what you're saying here. That folks couldn't get past the sex? If so, in looking past that, what should they see? And I'm genuinely interested in what you mean -- a glance at what I've said here could be mistaken for belligerence. Its not.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 09, 2010, 05:16:28 AM
...meaning? Not sure what you're saying here. That folks couldn't get past the sex? If so, in looking past that, what should they see?

Well, mostly I meant that people literally didn't get it and posted, "I don't get it."  There were a couple of scoffs at genre fiction, and I remember one person saying that it was written at a tenth-grade level.  That sort of thing.

As for what I see in it, well... I think ElectricPaladin summed it up best as a "beautiful-ugly" story.  It's vicious and visceral, but also thought-provoking.  That is, it uses the shock to ask a question, several questions, and to address a difficult theme (sex and communication) in an interesting way.  It's not shocking just so it can say, "There! Ha! I made you flinch!"  I love stories that make me think, and I love stories that play with language.  (I've read enough of Kij Johnson's work to recognize much of this story as written in a certain manner and with a certain cadence in order to achieve a particular effect, and that sort of language game intrigues me immensely.)  This story does a lot on both counts.  I'm not much at all into shock for shock-value's sake or sex and sexuality as a theme, and while this story has shock in spades and is almost single-mindedly about sex, I like it for the intricate structure supporting it and the complex issues it addresses.  That's what's past the sex, to me.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: mikegoodstadt on July 09, 2010, 06:12:35 AM
So this what really happened to Ripley on the way home? Always wondered what such a penetrating encounter would be like. Is her reaction Stockhold-syndrome or the listless boredom of an 'performer'?
Should the title be "Waiting for - god oh no!".
This progressive exploration feels drawn out if you fix on the acts. However if you fix on the feelings you may want to hug her, wipe her eyes (etc!) give her a glass of hot cocoa/hard liquor and say "Time to move on girl - there are plenty more slimey fishy things in the sea..."
All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Listener on July 09, 2010, 02:18:58 PM
I still don't know what to say about the story. It was more horror than anything else, to my mind -- being stuck in a tiny spaceship, sucking food from a tube, pooping into another tube, having sex with an alien via every opening on your body including some it makes itself, no stimuli whatsoever beyond that... which begs the question, did it somehow avoid her ears? Otherwise how would she have been able to hear?

A good story, but not the best of the bunch.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Schreiber on July 09, 2010, 07:11:23 PM
a well written scene, but it just doesn't hit me as a story.

I'm right there with you. Nothing is at stake here. If I had to guess, I'd say the author's personal kinks are at play. Not that that's a bad thing. It's a fantastic thing, when harnessed in an interesting and dynamic way. But this story is far too claustrophobic (and transparently self-gratifying) to be interesting or dynamic. It's the equivalent of a man seducing enthusiastic woman after enthusiastic woman with no complications, embarrassments, or consequences. Less vanilla, sure, but just as uncreative.

I'm afraid I have to file this Nebula Award in the same category as Charlton Heston's Honorary Doctorate and Henry Kissinger's Nobel Peace Prize.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on July 09, 2010, 07:17:49 PM
Nothing is at stake here. .

I disagree on that point. I think her individuality was at stake. The majority of the story was showing how it was being drained from her and she was losing herself, and at the end she made a concious decision to move towards reclaiming herself rather than continuing to be a victim.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: ElectricPaladin on July 09, 2010, 07:20:08 PM
Nothing is at stake here. .

I disagree on that point. I think her individuality was at stake. The majority of the story was showing how it was being drained from her and she was losing herself, and at the end she made a concious decision to move towards reclaiming herself rather than continuing to be a victim.

I'd like to second this. She survived her terrible experience with her individuality - her sanity - intact. That's a victory.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Schreiber on July 09, 2010, 07:49:18 PM

I'd like to second this. She survived her terrible experience with her individuality - her sanity - intact. That's a victory.

A victory for the character perhaps. Not for the story. "She survived" is setting the bar a little low, isn't it?

She is not a participant in her survival, merely its passive beneficiary. How this character would have coped with the experience after the fact had the potential to present a hornet's nest of choices, dilemmas, and challenges. But that isn't the story the author chose to write. The author chose to write a story in which the main character -really, the only character- has no control over anything, not even her own brain space. Under the terms of the story she is made to be utterly unaccountable. It may be titillating, but fantasizing about helplessness is kind of like fantasizing about superpowers. A good start, but without any force to problematize the conceit, it inevitably lacks emotional and intellectual depth.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 09, 2010, 11:47:01 PM
...within the course of the story, she maintains her mental barriers as best she can.  What else would you have her do in the situation?  The whole structure of the story is geared to remove every possible physical escape and explore what it means to be that helpless.

Not every story can have the hero pick up a raygun and take the fight to the enemy.  Sometimes all you can do is try to withstand the assault and hope it ends before you do.

(I'm still trying to understand the apparently consistent interpretation that the helplessness is somehow a good thing and meant to be enjoyed.  I can't see anything in the story that would lead me to the conclusion that we're supposed to get some sort of pleasure out of her rape.)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: ElectricPaladin on July 09, 2010, 11:59:15 PM
A victory for the character perhaps. Not for the story. "She survived" is setting the bar a little low, isn't it?

I'm not sure what you mean by a victory for the character but not for the story. The character's victory is the story. It is the story of her victory. They're one and the same.

And a lot of stories have "survival" as their main goal - the entire genre of wilderness survival fiction and autobiography, for example (my mother-in-law-to-be is a big fan of this genre). The aptly named "survival horror" is another. Sometimes a story is just about somebody wanting to get out with their mind and body intact, and that's not a bad thing.

That said, I do think the story has a flaw, and it occurs to me that we're looking at the same flaw but having a hard time communicating it to each other. I'd argue that Spar's biggest problem is that the character's victory is a bit content-free. We don't know why she has the strength to survive, what cunning tactic she employs or inner strength she finds. She survives by just surviving. While this might be the way it sometimes shakes out in the real world, I think the story would be stronger with more definite content.

That said, I still liked the story - I don't want anyone reading this to lose sight of that - but it wasn't perfect.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: heyes on July 10, 2010, 01:11:28 AM
Quote
A victory for the character perhaps. Not for the story. "She survived" is setting the bar a little low, isn't it?

She is not a participant in her survival, merely its passive beneficiary. How this character would have coped with the experience after the fact had the potential to present a hornet's nest of choices, dilemmas, and challenges. But that isn't the story the author chose to write. The author chose to write a story in which the main character -really, the only character- has no control over anything, not even her own brain space. Under the terms of the story she is made to be utterly unaccountable. It may be titillating, but fantasizing about helplessness is kind of like fantasizing about superpowers. A good start, but without any force to problematize the conceit, it inevitably lacks emotional and intellectual depth.

I agree with this point, hits it right on the head.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Schreiber on July 10, 2010, 01:17:16 AM
it occurs to me that we're looking at the same flaw but having a hard time communicating it to each other. I'd argue that Spar's biggest problem is that the character's victory is a bit content-free. We don't know why she has the strength to survive, what cunning tactic she employs or inner strength she finds. She survives by just surviving. While this might be the way it sometimes shakes out in the real world, I think the story would be stronger with more definite content.

I can get on board with that. Thanks, Paladin.

(I'm still trying to understand the apparently consistent interpretation that the helplessness is somehow a good thing and meant to be enjoyed.  I can't see anything in the story that would lead me to the conclusion that we're supposed to get some sort of pleasure out of her rape.)

Scattercat, I'm going to go ahead and assume that you're well aware of the many people get off on bondage and domination fantasies and that what you're saying here is that the author did not portray the sex act that is central to this story (really, it is the story) in an erotic fashion. I disagree.

She is literally fucked senseless. Fucked out of any and all attachments to her life. Which is kind of the appeal of bondage. No choices mean no responsibilities, which is a very liberating feeling in the face of the omnipresent obligations life throws at us. A very liberating feeling for about an hour in the dungeon. Or the length of a short story. It's a nice place to visit and we don't have to live there. Bondage, in short, is healthy fun.

Which is why this piece basically is pornography. There's nothing else at play. Only the simulated gratification of a particular itch. Her boyfriend and the poems are meant to be forgotten, not only by the narrator but by the reader as well. Her rescue is little more than a punctuation mark.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Darwinist on July 10, 2010, 01:38:56 AM

Which is why this piece basically is pornography. There's nothing else at play. Only the simulated gratification of a particular itch. Her boyfriend and the poems are meant to be forgotten, not only by the narrator but by the reader as well. Her rescue is little more than a punctuation mark.

Well put.

What a mind-blowing piece of fiction that is.  Great narration.   Yow!
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 10, 2010, 02:45:26 AM
She is literally fucked senseless. Fucked out of any and all attachments to her life. Which is kind of the appeal of bondage. No choices mean no responsibilities, which is a very liberating feeling in the face of the omnipresent obligations life throws at us. A very liberating feeling for about an hour in the dungeon. Or the length of a short story. It's a nice place to visit and we don't have to live there. Bondage, in short, is healthy fun.

Which is why this piece basically is pornography. There's nothing else at play. Only the simulated gratification of a particular itch. Her boyfriend and the poems are meant to be forgotten, not only by the narrator but by the reader as well. Her rescue is little more than a punctuation mark.

Just because someone could get off on it doesn't mean that it's meant to be gotten off on.  You say, "There's nothing else here."  Except her boyfriend.  And the poems.  And her rescue.  But those don't count?  Then why are they in the story?  If the piece was meant as a pornographic celebration of actual rape (there's no play here, no consent and control, no safety and sanity), then why is the rest of it there?
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: stePH on July 10, 2010, 02:47:33 AM
And a lot of stories have "survival" as their main goal - the entire genre of wilderness survival fiction and autobiography, for example (my mother-in-law-to-be is a big fan of this genre). The aptly named "survival horror" is another. Sometimes a story is just about somebody wanting to get out with their mind and body intact, and that's not a bad thing.

Such stories typically feature the main character actually doing something toward furthering their own survival.  All this character did was fuck the alien, with occasional breaks only to eat or shit.

If this one wins the Hugo, I will lose all faith in the process.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on July 10, 2010, 02:56:16 AM
Which is why this piece basically is pornography. There's nothing else at play. Only the simulated gratification of a particular itch. Her boyfriend and the poems are meant to be forgotten, not only by the narrator but by the reader as well. Her rescue is little more than a punctuation mark.

Again, I disagree. I don't see gratification taking place here. I see replacement.

She lost her love. She lost seemingly everything. She seemed to be taking the sex as a replacement of sorts, and .. as a way to forget, because she was hurting too much.

That's why ultimately the story to me is not mere pornography. Because of the underlying of tragedy, and the extreme suffering thinly veiled. (perhaps not so thinly, judging by people's responses... heh).

Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 10, 2010, 03:14:05 AM
Such stories typically feature the main character actually doing something toward furthering their own survival.  All this character did was fuck the alien, with occasional breaks only to eat or shit.

She does do something: she fucks the alien.

Remember, just because we see only her point of view doesn't mean there isn't another one.  The alien is dealing with her just as she deals with the alien.  She takes an active role and 'attacks' as well as 'defending.'  There's just not a lot of room to maneuver, as it were, physically or mentally.  She is blocked, and so she endures and fights skirmishes that lose ground even as they gain it. 
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on July 10, 2010, 03:19:30 AM
Also, she did do something towards her own survival. She left.

The bulk of the story demonstrated how she was emotionally dying. The conclusion, as I saw it, showed, given the opportunity, she instead chose to live, despite her grief.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: KenK on July 10, 2010, 03:52:24 AM
How can Spar be considered porn? It has an artistic purpose and therefore redeeming value. Porn, says SOCTUS, does not. It reminded me of such works as The Story of O or Venus in Furs which also had lots of sex but very limited erotic appeal. And just like those two classics of the genre I am kinda at a loss about what Spars artistic purpose actually is.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: ElectricPaladin on July 10, 2010, 04:19:20 AM
I'd like to go out on a limb now and say - as I sit here preparing rope to tie my fiancee up with later - that Spar is not an erotic BDSM story. That's not to say that some people wouldn't find it erotic - some people will find anything sexy - but I think there's a clear intent to tell a story here, not to titillate. For one thing, the market for alien fuck stories is pretty small. Most of us kinky folks aren't into that sort of thing. Just sayin'.

Like it or hate it, Spar is not about sex. Spar uses sex, which is a different thing altogether.

Whether or not Spar uses sex to tell a story you find interesting or compelling, that's the question.

Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: tamahome on July 10, 2010, 05:09:04 AM
So when does the novel come out?
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: ElectricPaladin on July 10, 2010, 05:13:17 AM
So when does the novel come out?

Oh, I'm still in the rewrites stage, and I haven't even found an...

Oh, you weren't talking to me, were you?

I'll be going now.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on July 10, 2010, 05:21:19 AM
How can Spar be considered porn? It has an artistic purpose and therefore redeeming value. Porn, says SOCTUS, does not.

That's the authority you go by?  ... More to the point, you allow someone else to decide that for you?
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 10, 2010, 05:35:48 AM
Pornography is erotic material that doesn't have a purpose beyond being erotic.  You use porn to masturbate. 

This is the commonly understood meaning of the word.  Obscenity without artistic merit. 

A story can have explicit sex without being pornography, and something can be porn (in a looser linguistic sense) without nudity or even sex.  (Witness "blank-porn" as slang for something which only titillates rather than having a deeper or broader use.  "Gadget-porn" for ad-like photos and gushing descriptions of new electronics, "torture-porn" for movies that display gore for the sake of shock without other meaning, etc.)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on July 10, 2010, 05:52:13 AM
Pornography is erotic material that doesn't have a purpose beyond being erotic.  You use porn to masturbate. 

This is the commonly understood meaning of the word.  Obscenity without artistic merit. 

I doubt you needed the Supreme Court to tell you that.

Also, that definition puts pornography - like beauty - in the eye of the beholder, even outside the intent of the material.  One person might define, say, "Spar" as pornography because they don't see a purpose beyond titillation (erotic or otherwise). But others see an artistic purpose and so to them, it isn't pornography.

It isn't something with an objective measure.

It also raises* the question of the definition of obscenity (or even erotic).  I'm sure, for instance, that yours and my criteria for what is obscene overlap greatly but do not match exactly.  Again, no objective measure.


*but does not beg.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Schreiber on July 10, 2010, 06:59:15 AM
I certainly don't think anyone would deny that the story has artistic aspirations. If intention is really what counts, maybe pornography is the wrong word. That being said, it does feel...well, masturbatory. I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that roughly 90% of the words in this story are devoted to describing and contextualizing  sex with the alien. Songs and poems can get away with that sort of thing, but fiction runs out of steam awfully fast.

I had a similar feeling about "Lust for Learning" back in the day. All speculative fiction has to spend a certain fraction of its energies on the What If angle of the story, but that's all these two stories seem to be interested in. What If you could hardwire people to get off on academic learning? Well, wouldn't that be cool! What if you crashed your spaceship into an alien spaceship and it brought you on board and ceaseless, brutal sex with you? Well, wouldn't that be horrible!

"This My Body" was a more successful take on the subject, in my humble opinion. "Little Worker" too. Stories like "Spar" and "Lust for Learning" are masturbatory not because they deal with sex but because they can't move past their preoccupation with their conceits. The fact that the conceits are sexual in nature might have something to do with their respective authors' lack of interest in expounding upon them, but that's just a speculation.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: ElectricPaladin on July 10, 2010, 08:27:11 AM
To be honest, IMHO, the term "pornography" is so vague as to be useless. If I think it has artistic merit, it's art. If you object to its degree of sexiness, it's porn. Porn isn't a category, it's a pejorative. Think something is inappropriately sexy? Want to ban, limit, or otherwise control it? Call it porn! Even porn doesn't want to be porn - it wants to be "erotica."

So, porn is a meaningless word.

I think this conversation would be a lot more interesting if we abandoned it and moved on. Spar is what Spar is; without the use of a dismissive label, what did you think about it?
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: stePH on July 10, 2010, 02:34:15 PM
I think this conversation would be a lot more interesting if we abandoned it and moved on. Spar is what Spar is; without the use of a dismissive label, what did you think about it?

Pointless waste of time.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Sandikal on July 10, 2010, 03:10:38 PM
I just couldn't listen to more than the first few sentences of this story.  I'm not even much of a prude.  I do read books that have graphic sex in them, including sex that disturbing and/or against my personal preferences.  However, the first few sentences of this story were so disturbing to me, I couldn't continue.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: stePH on July 10, 2010, 04:11:59 PM
I just couldn't listen to more than the first few sentences of this story.  I'm not even much of a prude.  I do read books that have graphic sex in them, including sex that disturbing and/or against my personal preferences.  However, the first few sentences of this story were so disturbing to me, I couldn't continue.

I own the Urotsukidouji Perfect Collection on DVD, and I still found nothing to like in this story.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: dreamophelia on July 11, 2010, 03:55:59 AM
....Stories like "Spar" and "Lust for Learning" are masturbatory not because they deal with sex but because they can't move past their preoccupation with their conceits. The fact that the conceits are sexual in nature might have something to do with their respective authors' lack of interest in expounding upon them, but that's just a speculation.

I kept thinking that it might make a stronger story as flash fiction, cut down to it's barest bones and unabashedly just an interesting idea that could be taken so much further. As it is, it felt to me like a very long writing prompt.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Seraphim on July 11, 2010, 04:49:56 AM
I'm glad this one had a warning. I've no interest in any of the territory this story is purported to explore. To this day I've never encountered any sex scene in any book or story that had any serious purpose beyond titillation I could discern. I found if I read them anyway I could not see what those scenes added and was generally disgusted by having let those images inside my head. Since then whenever they occur, I skip ahead and apparently miss nothing of substance to the rest of the story. So if a story such as Spar is so heavily invested in sex and blue language about sex then it is one that I might as well skip from the get go. I tried the first few lines of this story...just to be fair, but my reaction was (as expected) yuck, yuck, and yuck and that was all I could stand and I was sorry I had even bothered at all. Stories about sex, with sexually graphic scenes, with scads of obscene reference and a vocabulary seldom untethered from the scatological...just leave me reaching for a handy gallon of Purell. It grosses me out every time and not in a good way.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on July 11, 2010, 05:20:10 AM
It grosses me out every time and not in a good way.

I can't think of the good way to be grossed out...
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: deflective on July 11, 2010, 08:17:53 AM
this story wasn't really my thing but i respect the author for the effort.

what does interest me is that i remember escape pod running five first contact stories over the last year (this, Almanac (http://escapepod.org/2009/07/23/ep208-an-almanac-for-the-alien-invaders/), Strangers (http://escapepod.org/2009/09/24/ep217-the-kindness-of-strangers/), Ambushes (http://escapepod.org/2009/10/22/ep220-little-ambushes/), Thargus (http://escapepod.org/2010/05/20/ep241-thargus-and-brian/)), four had female protagonists, all of those had the woman losing their partner in some way.  a couple spent more time on the breakup than the aliens.

since scifi often uses it's speculation as an analog it seems like, from a woman's perspective, losing the comfort of a familiar relationship and going out to meet new people has the same qualities as meeting an alien species for the first time.  i'd be interested to hear female perspectives on this trend.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 11, 2010, 01:19:29 PM
This, to me, is an extraordinary piece of work and I nearly missed it because of the warning about graphic language. No criticism, I'm just inclined to avoid what is often the tedious over-use of some common expletives as a badge of 'authenticity'. Nevertheless, some words do make me squirm even though I can also see that offence arises simply because social convention says it should. We live in a world where sex and violence are standard TV fare (cf CSI) but the particular arrangement of a few letters gives some of us apoplexy.

I'm glad I wasn't put off. To me, this was not pornographic although with a different voice it very easily could be and if it were a film, how it came across would depend on what the director thought it was about. To me, neither the content nor the language were gratuitous, put there to shock me, or lacking in any purpose other than to capitalise on titillating exploitation. I don't know who was the victim here; the woman, the alien, or maybe both. There is no guarantee that the bipedal creature appearing at the end was a saviour to either of them and so no ultimate salvation. She may have been climbing to her death or to further exploitation, who knows?

What I do know is that the sense of dissolution of personality, reason, hope, and time created by the endless sexual encounters of each insular and solitary individual gave insight into the lengths human cognition will go to maintain its sense of self and to rationalise its actions. I don't know if the alien was experiencing something siliar but it felt pain and it locked the woman out after something inside it broke. I don't need to know what that was, I was happy to conceptualise it as a part of its spirit, its own survival repertoire, a valuable something that had to be protected.

The story didn't end but then some don't. It didn't leave me hanging either because I could occupy my thoughts with the uncertainties. Where was she going? Was she rescued? Or was the alien being rescued from her? Or were both about to be subject to further de-personalising experiences? In the end, the sexual content and the language seemed to be just vehicles for the expression of attempts at survival in the context of desolation, depersonalisation and loss.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: alllie on July 11, 2010, 03:55:34 PM
To this day I've never encountered any sex scene in any book or story that had any serious purpose beyond titillation I could discern. I found if I read them anyway I could not see what those scenes added and was generally disgusted by having let those images inside my head.

I wonder if that is deliberate, so they can be censored, if necessary, without losing any of the plot.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: ElectricPaladin on July 11, 2010, 04:14:54 PM
It's interesting that some of you react so negatively to sexy scenes. In the novel I'm writing, I'm actually running into the problem of there not being enough sex. That is, it's a combination of two things: first, the romance between two of the main characters isn't really selling itself without more obvious displays of affection, and second, the setting is supposed to be this incredibly lush, striking, and vital place. Adding some sexier scenes - maybe not actual screwing, but something a little sexier than the stiff conversation I wrote in my first draft - would give the piece a lot of kick.

And while I'm defending sexiness, there are books where the sex is incredibly important. In the Kushiel's Legacy series by Jacqueline Karey, for example, every sex scene serves to develop a character, explicate the setting, or both. Hell, remember Clan of the Cave Bear and its sequals? I know you read that as a kid - probably scarred me for life. Anyway, while it was certainly a little over the top, most (ok, some) of the sex in those books served a purpose in describing the development of the characters' relationship and cavegirl's sexual and mystical awakening.

So yeah. Don't undersell the sex.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on July 11, 2010, 05:16:41 PM
To this day I've never encountered any sex scene in any book or story that had any serious purpose beyond titillation I could discern. I found if I read them anyway I could not see what those scenes added and was generally disgusted by having let those images inside my head.

I wonder if that is deliberate, so they can be censored, if necessary, without losing any of the plot.

I suspect its a matter of perception and/or what books were read as I, conversely, have read a number of sex scenes that definitely had purposes beyond titillation.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Yargling on July 11, 2010, 06:31:01 PM
I'm glad this one had a warning. I've no interest in any of the territory this story is purported to explore. To this day I've never encountered any sex scene in any book or story that had any serious purpose beyond titillation I could discern.

I've read three, to my knowledge, though all 3 glide over the details for the most part - the 2 Dragon Ages books (a good read even if you aren't into the games) and Isaac Asimov's "Robots of the Dawn"

That said, the majority are that.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: stePH on July 11, 2010, 09:06:00 PM
It's interesting that some of you react so negatively to sexy scenes. In the novel I'm writing, I'm actually running into the problem of there not being enough sex. That is, it's a combination of two things: first, the romance between two of the main characters isn't really selling itself without more obvious displays of affection, and second, the setting is supposed to be this incredibly lush, striking, and vital place. Adding some sexier scenes - maybe not actual screwing, but something a little sexier than the stiff conversation I wrote in my first draft - would give the piece a lot of kick.

And while I'm defending sexiness, there are books where the sex is incredibly important. In the Kushiel's Legacy series by Jacqueline Karey, for example, every sex scene serves to develop a character, explicate the setting, or both. Hell, remember Clan of the Cave Bear and its sequals? I know you read that as a kid - probably scarred me for life. Anyway, while it was certainly a little over the top, most (ok, some) of the sex in those books served a purpose in describing the development of the characters' relationship and cavegirl's sexual and mystical awakening.

So yeah. Don't undersell the sex.

I don't mind a sex scene in a book or movie... my favorite novel Cyteen has a teen boy drugged and molested by an older, very powerful woman in a pivotal early scene that's critical to the story (it's also written rather non-explicitly, but the gist of what's going on isn't hard to figure out).  Jane Fancher's science fiction trilogy (Groundties, Uplink and Harmonies of the 'Net) also has several sex scenes running the gamut from hetero to (male) homo and BDSM; most of these were also integral to the story and not there for simple titillation or shock.

But "Spar", apart from the accident that set up the situation, was nothing but sex.  Feh.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: ElectricPaladin on July 11, 2010, 09:26:53 PM
I don't mind a sex scene in a book or movie... my favorite novel Cyteen has a teen boy drugged and molested by an older, very powerful woman in a pivotal early scene that's critical to the story (it's also written rather non-explicitly, but the gist of what's going on isn't hard to figure out).  Jane Fancher's science fiction trilogy (Groundties, Uplink and Harmonies of the 'Net) also has several sex scenes running the gamut from hetero to (male) homo and BDSM; most of these were also integral to the story and not there for simple titillation or shock.

But "Spar", apart from the accident that set up the situation, was nothing but sex.  Feh.

I'm not sure I agree. Interspersed with the sex was a great deal about the POV character's life before the accident, her relationship with her husband, and her struggle to stay sane and maintain a sense of self in the madness of the lifeboat. The story might have had its flaws, but I don't really see it as "nothing but sex."
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on July 12, 2010, 12:15:50 AM
Yeah I also have to disagree. Sex was definitely  not the only thing going on in this story, though the other stuff was subtle.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 12, 2010, 01:21:23 AM
More to the point, the story is in a lot of ways ABOUT sex and what sex means (or doesn't mean).  It would be hard to write a story about the meaning of war without including some gunshots in it, ne?
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: lmh on July 12, 2010, 03:53:48 AM
For me the story wasn't at all about the sex. It was about the utter desolation of the protagonists plight. In her situation it seemed that sex, and self mutilation were the only escape from total sensory deprivation. The sex was the only way she could interact with her rescuer.

For her sex was distraction, entertainment, control, communication and even something familiar in such an alien environment. I did not get the sense that it was in any way satisfying.

Reading/hearing it in such graphic detail was very unsettling, but was a powerful way to get me to feel the desparation of her situation. I could understand her hopelessness, resignation, fear and loss, and indeed her fight to retain some semblence of herself.

There was nothing nice about this story and even the ending was not filled with hope, rather it was just the end of misery, not a happy rescue.

I love a happy ending, which is why I loved Bridesicle so much. Spar was too disturbing for my taste, but I think that is part of what makes it such a powerful piece of writing. For this particular story it was the only way it could be told.

Should the story have been told at all? That  is a different question, and one that we usually leave up to authors.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Kaa on July 12, 2010, 04:02:26 AM
I purposefully didn't read any of the other comments on this one because I wanted to say that I just didn't like this one. It was an interesting little vignette, but...It just didn't have anything for me to latch onto.

Your mileage may very well vary, of course, but: meh.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: wakela on July 12, 2010, 07:07:45 AM
Very enjoyable and thought-provoking, but more of a scene than a story.  I didn't get any character development.  The intensity remains they same throughout.  Her challenge is sort of to stay sane, but she doesn't seem to be actively trying to do so.  She does retain her humanity, but it's not because of anything she did deliberately.  She said she tried the airlock, so we know that if she had a choice she would not have survived.   I think all these were intentional on the author's part, and helped paint the mood.  But they made the story a little less engaging. 

I think I would have enjoyed a story about this character after the rescue, flashing back to her experience in the lifeboat. 
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: lmh on July 12, 2010, 07:18:11 AM

So I would counter while our literature does have a history of sexual reference, the more explicit and graphic literary forays have tended to be sources of long standing public disdain regardless of their other literary merits. The whole notion that art needs to shock the sensibilities or challenge tradition, or the common cultural mores never had much traction with me. I'll admit there are limited occasions when use of the arts to challenge some conventions are warranted but that would be more when dealing with some entrenched injustice like Jim Crow laws, or filthy meat packing plants, hence works like To Kill A Mocking Bird, Invisible Man, the Jungle, or the children's books Beautiful Joe.


Seems to me that "long standing public disdain" = "Shock the sensibilities or challenge tradition, or the common cultural mores"

Great writing challenges us to think, pushes the envelope, opens up society and says, "look at this, is this right?". From a story it launches debate. To Kill a Mockingbird, 1984, Lady Chatterley's Lover, Brave New World, much of Shakespeare, the Bible (to mention the ones already mentioned), and countless other of the world's great stories. This is what I really love about great writing, the lingering possibilities of creating social change.

Otherwise it is just entertainment. Not a bad end in itself, and l love a great narrative for its own sake, but there is power in those life changing pieces, where the telling of the story pushes at the edges and confronts something about or within us.

Do I think Spar is one of these? Not really, I think its explicitness is overwhelming, but I think it is a story of despair powerfully told. It has, however, pushed and confronted and created a rollicking debate.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: SanguineV on July 12, 2010, 10:10:24 AM
For me this story had a wonderful collection of pieces that somehow never came together properly. The scene was open to many possibilities. The loss of self, isolation, cabin fever, loneliness and state of mind was definitely thought provoking. The sex/rape, particularly as the definition of the relationship but never having communication was both clever and posed a question. The writing was artfully done, allowing the impact of the scene through clever language instead of blunt words.

... Yet they never all came together.

I agree with those who felt the scene was too static. The endless sameness of it was something that either needed to be better built upon by other aspects, or just cut down to one scene. As a flash piece this could have been done very nicely. But the lack of development over time of the character never shone through, the result was the piece felt like one scene, not a real story.

Which leads into the portrayal of state of mind. The scenario was one that could have gone many ways, insanity, communication, acceptance, introspection to name some off hand. Early on I was curious to see where the character went, what does she turn into or discover when left only with herself and an alien she cannot really communicate with? Ultimately this fell very flat for me in delivery, the questions were never really posed significantly and the story seemed to be that she survived and chose to keep doing so. This was perhaps where the story most fell apart for me, no real "story", just a moment (albeit a very long one) of existing and not dying.[1]

The sex/rape I thought was quite well done in how it was presented. The interaction was simply all they could do and the lack of communication kept it from being erotic (although I am sure some people found it so). I think it added to the horror, closeness and isolation of the character, but occasionally it felt over-emphasised: yes they are constantly intimate, but it didn't always add to the story.

The writing was very nicely done. The reuse of words and phrases really drove home the right points and the language was well chosen. I never found this a distractor from the work which is good (and somewhat rare).

Overall I found Spar one of the better Hugo nominees, although I preferred Bridesicle. Definitely more interesting and memorable than the other 3.

One final minor irk, I found myself working hard to suspend belief enough for this one. The premise of the crash being so highly unlikely is fine. What broke it for me what that the alien and human are so perfectly matched they can share atmosphere/pressure/bodily fluids/injuries/environment for so long without any harmful effects... That seemed extremely unlikely. Add in the waste disposal system that apparently collects faeces (and urine, I can't recall), but not other discharges from the genitals? (How does it collect these when the alien is inside those orifices that discharge it anyway, wouldn't the alien get in the way?) Also, why build an escapepod for your spaceship that can adapt for the nutrition of any known alien, yet doesn't support even primitive communication? If you can determine all the chemicals to insert/remove from the environment of any alien then why not also have a minimal translator? (Mobile phones can do this now... So either the computer is powerful enough to work things out on the fly, so should be able to do some communication, or it isn't but has a catalogue of aliens... but not their language.)

1 - I can't help but consider that this was a mixture of lack of cerebral development and vague discussion of the physical. Seeing as her mental state is degenerate it can be helpful to have the mental/emotional fall apart. However, the physical was similarly disjoint, as a result the sense of time and change in physical behaviour didn't line up. Only the brief discussion of how she tried to track time and failed seemed to make any attempt to manage this. Ultimately I think the story would be stronger with a better sense of time passing, not necessarily in any measurable way for the character, but for the audience to perceive the transitions in state of mind.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: DKT on July 12, 2010, 04:23:29 PM
The topic of Sex in SF and Literature has been moved to the SF Discussion area of the boards (http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=4053.msg71095#msg71095).

It's an interesting discussion, and we appreciate everyone being so polite during it, so have it over there. We're going to try and maintain focus on the story in this thread, though.

Carry on!
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Listener on July 12, 2010, 04:43:52 PM
Yeah I also have to disagree. Sex was definitely  not the only thing going on in this story, though the other stuff was subtle.

It's like writing a story about a drive from Miami to New York: the story is about driving, but other stuff happens -- listening to music, eating, trying not to fall asleep on the road...
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on July 12, 2010, 04:49:36 PM
Yeah I also have to disagree. Sex was definitely  not the only thing going on in this story, though the other stuff was subtle.

It's like writing a story about a drive from Miami to New York: the story is about driving, but other stuff happens -- listening to music, eating, trying not to fall asleep on the road...

I disagree. Its like writing a story about driving from Miami to New York in the wake of severe personal trauma, half numbed. Yes, the story is on the surface about driving, but its what you went through that's the meat of it.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Listener on July 12, 2010, 04:58:59 PM
Yeah I also have to disagree. Sex was definitely  not the only thing going on in this story, though the other stuff was subtle.

It's like writing a story about a drive from Miami to New York: the story is about driving, but other stuff happens -- listening to music, eating, trying not to fall asleep on the road...

I disagree. Its like writing a story about driving from Miami to New York in the wake of severe personal trauma, half numbed. Yes, the story is on the surface about driving, but its what you went through that's the meat of it.

Okay, I'll give you that.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Mercurywaxing on July 13, 2010, 01:41:05 AM
I found this to be an interesting almost feminist tale (feminist in that the woman is a victim and survives) but oddly undercooked.  I understand how the repetitive nature of the scene and the language was meant to draw you into her situation.  While it works as an audiobook this would rapidly loose the interest of many readers.  The problem with the tactic the author took was that even though the character was trapped we as readers could end the ordeal at any time by simply putting the story down.  That seriously blunts the effectiveness of her style.  It's a shame because it began with an interesting idea.

Those ideas, about victim-hood, loss of self, and sex as communication are actually very strong.  Some people and relationships are based solely on sex.  The people in those relationships take out their love, aggression, sadness and fear in the act.  It's also a well established notion in sci-fi that many creatures communicate through physical touch or other means and it's a great twist on that old trope.  Sadly the execution wasn't up to the ideas.

(To see and interesting twist on the idea of being in someone's head during a rape I strongly suggest the film Strange Days by Katherine Biggelow and James Cameron)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Swamp on July 13, 2010, 02:40:42 AM
I started to listen to "Spar" on the Clarkesworld podcast, but stopped as it obviously wasn't for me.  I am glad EP obtained it to complete the line up of Hugo nominees.  I also appreciate, as always, the rating of the stories at EP, as well as the audio warnings.  Those who want to listen can, but there is always the choice of others, like me, to hold off and come back next week.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Listener on July 13, 2010, 04:55:33 PM
(feminist in that the woman is a victim and survives)

That doesn't sound feminist. It sounds like a Lifetime movie -- if the story had had a couple hundred more words maybe she'd have grabbed a security guard's gun and vaporized the alien, and then it really WOULD be.

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist):

Quote
Feminism refers to political, cultural, and economic movements aimed at establishing greater rights, legal protection for women, and/or women's liberation. Feminism includes some of the sociological theories and philosophies concerned with issues of gender difference. It is also a movement that campaigns for women's rights and interests. Nancy Cott defines feminism as the belief in the importance of gender equality, invalidating the idea of gender hierarchy as a socially constructed concept.

Not to be a nit-picker, but I've had it drummed into my head what a feminist is and how UNBELIEVABLY AWESOMELY AMAZING IN EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE WAY* they are by working for a college English department** for three years.***

* Hyperbole

** Apparently, at least at the university I attended, "feminist" meant "believes women are superior", not "believes women deserve the same rights as men".

*** In all seriousness, I respect feminists, and I look forward to a world where we won't need them because we'll realize that, at bottom, we're all the same: we're all humans.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on July 14, 2010, 12:57:14 AM
Apparently, at least at the university I attended, "feminist" meant "believes women are superior", not "believes women deserve the same rights as men".

That's femdom, not feminism. ;)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: KenK on July 14, 2010, 02:42:49 AM
Whatever point the author was trying to make just didn't come through to my dim level of consciousness. And so, I, for one, can hardly wait until the Hugo voters make their picks already and for EP to move to something else. We've picked this carcass clean to the bones. I've read Spar once and listened to it twice, so please nobody tell me I didn't try or give it a chance to sink in. And, if truth be told, if I had access to a workable "brain eraser" I would use it on my brain cells that are devoted to the remembrance of Spar. And that's a damned fact.  ;)
So until that happy day when such a device is available I'll just have to rely on copious amounts of Merlot, vodka, and gin instead. Cheers!  ;D

Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: knigget on July 14, 2010, 12:02:16 PM
I listened to it on a long commute.  Definitely dreary enough to be a Nebula winner, although the Hugo crowd might like lighter fare.

I like and dislike it not for sex or graphic details, but for the same reasons I liked and disliked Kafka's Metamorphosis, to which it is a mirror twin:  "...to find HER PARTNER transformed into a giant slimy shapeless alien."  A rather jarring riff on the "you always marry a stranger (or even alien)" theme, this one taken to rather extreme ends.  The alien who almost never appeared to learn a damn thing from any attempts at communication is, I am sure, a familiar image to many a person in a committed relationship.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: DKT on July 14, 2010, 04:14:34 PM
I've very curious to see how people react to "Spar," which is a very different kind of space opera.

It's in space, yeah, but "space opera" to me involves an epic story with a large cast of characters... not just two beings fucking in a can.

Well, it's a pretty epic fuck.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Unblinking on July 14, 2010, 04:34:33 PM
This could have been an amazing story if it had known where to quit.  The setup has a lot going for it with the questions of what is rape, what is sex, what makes us human, what is rescue, what should be taboo, etc..  This was all conveyed very well in the first few minutes.  And then it kept going on, and on.  The dark material was a bit shocking at first, then thought-provoking, but then it kept on going on and on and on, saying the same things over and over.

As flash fiction, this could've been really amazing, to show it's premise, get through the ideas, and then be gone before I'd recovered from the initial shock, leaving the consequences to linger.  But as a full length story this was all diluted and repeated to the point that I just didn't care for it anymore.  I'm a firm believer that every story should only be as long as it has to be and this one was way longer than that and loses major points for it.  Add into that the higher expectations I always have for a Hugo nom and this did not meet them.

For me Bridesicle is an easy favorite of the five.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Thunderscreech on July 14, 2010, 06:28:17 PM
Interrsting story.  I think I've been on this date.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 14, 2010, 07:02:39 PM
Interrsting story.  I think I've been on this date.
I bet he drinks Carling Black Label..
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on July 14, 2010, 07:07:28 PM
Interrsting story.  I think I've been on this date.

Condolences, I think.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Thunderscreech on July 14, 2010, 07:15:54 PM
Interrsting story.  I think I've been on this date.

Condolences, I think.
Well...
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 14, 2010, 07:24:25 PM
  And then it kept going on, and on.  The dark material was a bit shocking at first, then thought-provoking, but then it kept on going on and on and on, saying the same things over and over.

I think audio isn't kind to the story, just by virtue of stretching the experience from 7-10 minutes out to 20. 
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Unblinking on July 15, 2010, 05:54:59 PM
  And then it kept going on, and on.  The dark material was a bit shocking at first, then thought-provoking, but then it kept on going on and on and on, saying the same things over and over.

I think audio isn't kind to the story, just by virtue of stretching the experience from 7-10 minutes out to 20. 

You might be right about this.  I suspect that I'd still think it was longer then it needed to be.  But in text, I probably would've also skimmed the last half and maybe would've been left with a better overall impression.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Thats What She Said on July 16, 2010, 12:10:15 AM
Episode summary for busy people: A woman fucks a shoggoth.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: ElectricPaladin on July 16, 2010, 12:16:26 AM
Episode summary for busy people: A woman fucks a shoggoth.

That's what she said.

Also, did you actually listen to the episode, or just read the commentary?
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Thats What She Said on July 16, 2010, 01:07:43 AM
Also, did you actually listen to the episode, or just read the commentary?

I did listen to it. The reading was pretty good (that's the only positive thing I can saw about the story), but I just didn't see the point of the story. Nothing happened. A woman fucks a shoggoth for 99% of the story and then at the very end something happens but we don't really know what because the author just seemed to give up at that point. The whole thing just seemed pointless. There must have been a more deserving story out there that could have been nominated.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on July 16, 2010, 02:20:04 AM
Also, did you actually listen to the episode, or just read the commentary?

I did listen to it. The reading was pretty good (that's the only positive thing I can saw about the story), but I just didn't see the point of the story. Nothing happened. A woman fucks a shoggoth for 99% of the story and then at the very end something happens but we don't really know what because the author just seemed to give up at that point. The whole thing just seemed pointless. There must have been a more deserving story out there that could have been nominated.

a few people have agreed with you and some of us have disagreed and stated our cases - if you havent yet, try reading through the feedback here. Its an interesting mix.

The story generated a whole bunch of discussion. :)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: tamahome on July 16, 2010, 03:57:24 PM
Samuel R. Delany called me up and told me he loved it.  (j/k)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: KenK on July 16, 2010, 07:10:54 PM
Samuel R. Delaney? The only thing I've read in the sf genre that was creepier than Spar was his work Dahlgren.   :D
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: alllie on July 17, 2010, 02:38:10 PM
Samuel R. Delaney? The only thing I've read in the sf genre that was creepier than Spar was his work Dahlgren.   :D

Hey, I loved Dahlgren. Though it was creepy. But that made it better, that I could never figure out what was happening.

Spar, well, it was just alien porn.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Divarancher on July 17, 2010, 05:48:33 PM
Totally agree.  How did this even get onto Escape Pod?  This "short story" is an insult to the wonderful creativity and talent this podcast is known for, to listeners and previous artists.   Come on Escape Artists, not all is art.  :-\  :'( ???
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: KenK on July 17, 2010, 07:07:26 PM
@Divarancher
Spar is a Hugo nominee and by EP tradition (which many of us are grateful for) are presented here.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 17, 2010, 07:34:47 PM
Totally agree.  How did this even get onto Escape Pod?  This "short story" is an insult to the wonderful creativity and talent this podcast is known for, to listeners and previous artists.   Come on Escape Artists, not all is art.  :-\  :'( ???
I'd say that's your opinion and not a universal truth. There's been quite a debate here about this story with detailed critiques that both pull it apart and dissect its attributes. They are all pretty vehement but they generally amount to a bit more than either an 'insult' or unqualified praise.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Divarancher on July 17, 2010, 08:43:00 PM
Thanks for the reminder that Spar is a Hugo nominee, that is what I meant when I stated that not all is art. In many situations we are similar to wilderbeasts, one starts to run and we all stampede behind without knowing why.  If we thought for ourselves without the bias of others, where would this story stand?   :o  Of course this is only my opinion, that is what forums are about, stating ones opinion.  If we wanted universal truths, we would not be on this site, but reading something much less entertaining. ;)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Divarancher on July 17, 2010, 08:54:09 PM
Oh, one more thing.  I am in awe of all the great authors and talent on Escape Pod, thanks for sharing your wonderful minds with us. Even though I did not care for this story, and was actually offended by it, I  appreciate the work, talent,  and that as authors you share your gift with us.  Those of us who are only capable of writing shopping lists, dream about capturing your imagination...Thanks



Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 17, 2010, 09:04:49 PM
Thanks for the reminder that Spar is a Hugo nominee, that is what I meant when I stated that not all is art. In many situations we are similar to wilderbeasts, one starts to run and we all stampede behind without knowing why.  If we thought for ourselves without the bias of others, where would this story stand?   :o  Of course this is only my opinion, that is what forums are about, stating ones opinion.  If we wanted universal truths, we would not be on this site, but reading something much less entertaining. ;)
I don't know if you've scrolled back through this thread and others but if you do, I think you'll see that no one is stampeding anywhere. The debate has been quite heated and some people are not giving up their views, come Hull, Hell or Halifax, and quite right too! Good though that you're finding the site entertaining, I certainly do and, as a new-ish writer, I really value the going-over the stories here get.  :)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 17, 2010, 09:55:37 PM
Thanks for the reminder that Spar is a Hugo nominee, that is what I meant when I stated that not all is art.

I read the story in a vacuum and liked it for its own merits.  I'd say more, but I'm having a hard time making it sound polite.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Listener on July 18, 2010, 02:42:19 AM
In many situations we are similar to wilderbeasts, one starts to run and we all stampede behind without knowing why. 

Do you work in TV news? Because you just described exactly how it works with one lovely metaphor.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: CryptoMe on July 18, 2010, 07:51:58 AM
I did not like this one. I felt the sex was gratuitous and didn't add anything meaningful to the story. Here's why I say that:

I could go on, and on, but (unlike the author of this story) I won't. This was the literary analog of watching someone masturbate. The author may have enjoyed themselves, but I did not.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: knigget on July 18, 2010, 12:47:37 PM
Reminds me of the fight that broke out over Stravinsky's Rite of Spring at the Paris Opera. 

Saw INCEPTION yesterday, and this story would not feel out of place in the movie.  Or at least a remake or a sequel.  It has that relentless, claustrophobic, interminable quality of a really bad dream.  Not to mention nudity and flying.

Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 18, 2010, 01:07:38 PM
In many situations we are similar to wildebeests, one starts to run and we all stampede behind without knowing why. 

Do you work in TV news?
Or TV Gnus, even. ;D
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 18, 2010, 04:30:58 PM
Quote
The important themes of alienation, grief, abandonment, and even communication could all have been addressed without that much sex.

Another important theme was sex itself.  That could not have been addressed without sex.

Quote
and she does get some gratification from it (I don't think she would be releasing secretions otherwise),

That is not how the female body works.  It does not work like the male body.  The vagina actually lubricates itself pretty much at the drop of a hat, even during horrific rapes etc.  Best theory right now is that this is a defensive measure, evolved to prevent internal injuries in the event of sexual assault (most animals don't do a lot of asking permission first.)

Quote
The woman's motivation is never addressed... but for the life of me, I can't figure out why. In this respect, it's very much like porn.

Motivations can be complicated.  She can both enjoy it and loathe it.  Again, it speaks a lot to abusive relationships, where there are complex and conflicting desires at work.  Porn is sex without any motivations at all.

Quote
I find it completely unbelievable that the characters (either of them) couldn't come up with something else to do with their time.

The alien WOULDN'T STOP, so the woman didn't have a lot of choice. 

Quote
If sex was the alien's attempt at communications, then what kind of moron is it

The whole point was that we and the protagonist couldn't figure out what the alien wanted.  Because it was alien.  It might have been trying to communicate.  Maybe it thought it was hearing something back, like someone chatting to an AI chatbot, on whatever frequency or method it used.  Maybe it was just a mindless creature trying to attack her.  Maybe it was insane.  It was Other, and they were together; again, a strong thematic connection to an abusive relationship.

Quote
The author may have enjoyed themselves, but I did not.

I am getting REALLY tired of people insinuating that Kij Johnson wrote this to get her jollies off.  I linked to an interview with her about the piece and its genesis.  You can read it for yourself.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 18, 2010, 04:54:34 PM
Quote
The important themes of alienation, grief, abandonment, and even communication could all have been addressed without that much sex.

Another important theme was sex itself.  That could not have been addressed without sex.

Quote
and she does get some gratification from it (I don't think she would be releasing secretions otherwise),

That is not how the female body works.  It does not work like the male body.  The vagina actually lubricates itself pretty much at the drop of a hat, even during horrific rapes etc.  Best theory right now is that this is a defensive measure, evolved to prevent internal injuries in the event of sexual assault (most animals don't do a lot of asking permission first.)

Quote
The woman's motivation is never addressed... but for the life of me, I can't figure out why. In this respect, it's very much like porn.

Motivations can be complicated.  She can both enjoy it and loathe it.  Again, it speaks a lot to abusive relationships, where there are complex and conflicting desires at work.  Porn is sex without any motivations at all.

Quote
I find it completely unbelievable that the characters (either of them) couldn't come up with something else to do with their time.

The alien WOULDN'T STOP, so the woman didn't have a lot of choice. 

Quote
If sex was the alien's attempt at communications, then what kind of moron is it

The whole point was that we and the protagonist couldn't figure out what the alien wanted.  Because it was alien.  It might have been trying to communicate.  Maybe it thought it was hearing something back, like someone chatting to an AI chatbot, on whatever frequency or method it used.  Maybe it was just a mindless creature trying to attack her.  Maybe it was insane.  It was Other, and they were together; again, a strong thematic connection to an abusive relationship.

Quote
The author may have enjoyed themselves, but I did not.

I am getting REALLY tired of people insinuating that Kij Johnson wrote this to get her jollies off.  I linked to an interview with her about the piece and its genesis.  You can read it for yourself.
I agree with the Cat on every point. Many women are horrified by their physical reaction to sexual assault and often blame themselves for years afterwards, thinking that at some level, they must have been complicit. As to the repetitive nature of the encounters, abusive relationships do just that, becoming normalised and horrifically routine to the victim. The abuser often sells it as love and the victim can come to believe that too. Sexual abuse is shocking to all but the abuser, especially when it is repeated endlessly in a closed relationship. The more I think about this story, the more it seems to be describing abuse and the more I wonder if the two entities are not co-victims with no way out of their helplessness.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 18, 2010, 05:41:12 PM
Quote

I am getting REALLY tired of people insinuating that Kij Johnson wrote this to get her jollies off.  I linked to an interview with her about the piece and its genesis.  You can read it for yourself.
Where link? Sorry, wasn't paying attention :-\
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 18, 2010, 06:33:09 PM
Interview with Kij Johnson about "Spar." (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/johnson_interview/)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: MCWagner on July 18, 2010, 06:34:59 PM
(I know this is reaching back a bit, but I only just saw this...)

It grosses me out every time and not in a good way.

I can't think of the good way to be grossed out...
Check out the art/genres of Grindcore, Gorecore, splatterpunk, splat-stick, and the Japanese "ero-goro."  (...actually, you should probably avoid that last one.)  The "gross out" is a thrill similar to the "fright" from horror flicks/stories.  Perhaps more rarified, but one can develop a taste for being "grossed out" in the same way one can seek out the thrill of being frightened.  Both are counter-intuitive for one to enjoy, but humans are emotionally f***ed-up creatures.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 18, 2010, 06:44:32 PM
Interview with Kij Johnson about "Spar." (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/johnson_interview/)
Thanks. That doesn't disappoint.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: knigget on July 18, 2010, 06:46:25 PM
I agree with the Cat on every point. Many women are horrified by their physical reaction to sexual assault and often blame themselves for years afterwards, thinking that at some level, they must have been complicit. As to the repetitive nature of the encounters, abusive relationships do just that, becoming normalised and horrifically routine to the victim. The abuser often sells it as love and the victim can come to believe that too. Sexual abuse is shocking to all but the abuser, especially when it is repeated endlessly in a closed relationship. The more I think about this story, the more it seems to be describing abuse and the more I wonder if the two entities are not co-victims with no way out of their helplessness.

I don't think the author is quite so simplistic in her outlook.  "Sexual abuse is shocking to all but the abuser, especially when it is repeated endlessly in a closed relationship." -- yes; and much of the time it's because the abuser (who may actually be female) is unaware of the precise location of the fine line between persuasion and coercion.  Her alien isn't an abuser or the victim; it's -- the alien.  Is the MC victimized by the alien,  or by the alienation?  
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on July 18, 2010, 07:07:55 PM
Thanks for the link, Scattercat. I enjoyed that.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 18, 2010, 07:21:20 PM
I agree with the Cat on every point. Many women are horrified by their physical reaction to sexual assault and often blame themselves for years afterwards, thinking that at some level, they must have been complicit. As to the repetitive nature of the encounters, abusive relationships do just that, becoming normalised and horrifically routine to the victim. The abuser often sells it as love and the victim can come to believe that too. Sexual abuse is shocking to all but the abuser, especially when it is repeated endlessly in a closed relationship. The more I think about this story, the more it seems to be describing abuse and the more I wonder if the two entities are not co-victims with no way out of their helplessness.

I don't think the author is quite so simplistic in her outlook.  "Sexual abuse is shocking to all but the abuser, especially when it is repeated endlessly in a closed relationship." -- yes; and much of the time it's because the abuser (who may actually be female) is unaware of the precise location of the fine line between persuasion and coercion.  Her alien isn't an abuser or the victim; it's -- the alien.  Is the MC victimized by the alien,  or by the alienation?  
I don't think we know if either is an abuser or a victim, just that they're both caught up in an endless locked-in cycle of helpless interaction. Just because the alien is, well, alien, doesn't mean it can't be one or the other. For all I know, there's another group of hypothetical and tenticularised readers seeing this through its own lens and coming to a different conclusion. We don't even know if the bipedal individual at the end is human. Perhaps its species captured both of them and then observed their 'ins and outs' wondering what the f*** was going on!
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on July 18, 2010, 08:52:22 PM
Perhaps its species captured both of them and then observed their 'ins and outs' wondering what the f*** was going on!

I thought 'the f***' was what was going on! ;)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 18, 2010, 09:09:12 PM
Perhaps its species captured both of them and then observed their 'ins and outs' wondering what the f*** was going on!

I thought 'the f***' was what was going on! ;)
;D
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: knigget on July 18, 2010, 09:17:56 PM
Interview with Kij Johnson about "Spar." (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/johnson_interview/)

Just read that.  Summed up in one brilliant line:

And a story about sex with an alien because it's that or die of boredom.

Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Thunderscreech on July 18, 2010, 11:16:57 PM
CryptoMe: With respect, the comment about her being aroused because the character lubricated is ignorant.  It is an autonomic process, your statement reminds me of a senator who speculated that pregnancy from rape was impossible because 'the juices just don't flow'.  Adding the bit about the author using the story as a sexual release is repugnant, I hope I misunderstood your insinuation.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Unblinking on July 19, 2010, 01:44:08 PM
It is an autonomic process, your statement reminds me of a senator who speculated that pregnancy from rape was impossible because 'the juices just don't flow'. 

Wow, somebody actually said that? 
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on July 19, 2010, 01:54:27 PM
It is an autonomic process, your statement reminds me of a senator who speculated that pregnancy from rape was impossible because 'the juices just don't flow'. 

Wow, somebody actually said that? 

There are a lot of seriously ignorant uninformed politicians out there.  The worst ones are the ones who make a 'virtue' out of it ("Don't need none o' that there book learning...").
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Thunderscreech on July 19, 2010, 02:13:37 PM
It is an autonomic process, your statement reminds me of a senator who speculated that pregnancy from rape was impossible because 'the juices just don't flow'. 

Wow, somebody actually said that? 
Henry Aldridge: ""The facts show that people who are raped, who are truly raped—the juices don’t flow, the body functions don’t work, and they don’t get pregnant.""

CryptoMe's comment suggests to me that this type of thinking still exists.  Embarrassing.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: stePH on July 19, 2010, 02:14:55 PM
In many situations we are similar to wildebeests, one starts to run and we all stampede behind without knowing why. 

Do you work in TV news?
Or TV Gnus, even. ;D

I'm sure we've all herd that joke before.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 19, 2010, 06:24:16 PM
In many situations we are similar to wildebeests, one starts to run and we all stampede behind without knowing why. 

Do you work in TV news?
Or TV Gnus, even. ;D

I'm sure we've all herd that joke before.
Ooooooof. Multitudinous oooooofs, in fact... :-*
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Kaa on July 19, 2010, 06:26:12 PM
Ooooooof. Multitudinous oooooofs, in fact... :-*

You might even say thundering 'oof-beats. That you herd. On the gnus.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 19, 2010, 07:12:05 PM
Ooooooof. Multitudinous oooooofs, in fact... :-*

You might even say thundering 'oof-beats. That you herd. On the gnus.
UNCLE!!! ;D
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Kaa on July 19, 2010, 07:14:59 PM
Ooooooof. Multitudinous oooooofs, in fact... :-*

You might even say thundering 'oof-beats. That you herd. On the gnus.
UNCLE!!! ;D

You sure you don't mean "ungulate"?
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: CleverScreenName on July 19, 2010, 07:25:52 PM
This was the first Escape Pod story I listened to. A rather horrifying introduction, really, but also kind of reassuring: I'll never have to worry about this podcast pulling its punches or sacrificing artistic integrity to avoid offending people. I consider this a good thing, even if some of the individual stories might not be up my alley.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 19, 2010, 07:34:35 PM
Ooooooof. Multitudinous oooooofs, in fact... :-*

You might even say thundering 'oof-beats. That you herd. On the gnus.
UNCLE!!! ;D

You sure you don't mean "ungulate"?
I'd like to think I've unguligraduated above that sort of thing!
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on July 19, 2010, 07:47:55 PM
This was the first Escape Pod story I listened to. A rather horrifying introduction, really, but also kind of reassuring: I'll never have to worry about this podcast pulling its punches or sacrificing artistic integrity to avoid offending people. I consider this a good thing, even if some of the individual stories might not be up my alley.

Haha, welcome. You picked a heck of an episode to start with! :p
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on July 19, 2010, 07:52:46 PM
This was the first Escape Pod story I listened to. A rather horrifying introduction, really, but also kind of reassuring: I'll never have to worry about this podcast pulling its punches or sacrificing artistic integrity to avoid offending people. I consider this a good thing, even if some of the individual stories might not be up my alley.

Haha, welcome. You picked a heck of an episode to start with! :p
And how! This one's really sorted the men from the boys from the indeterminate putative cephalopods! Paul the Octopus must be gnashing his beak for getting railroaded into football predictions!
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Leslianne on July 20, 2010, 06:21:09 AM
I haven't actually listened to Spar yet, but I read it a while back. It's interesting to see so many takes on it. The main thing that struck me was the alienation of intimacy with someone you don't understand and who doesn't understand you... I always thought that's why the bit with the poems was there. She tries to tell her boyfriend that's not what she wants or likes, but he keeps on with it anyway, trying to make that connection. That and the part where she touches something inside the alien that actually hurts it, the only thing that ever gets a change or a reaction, and she spends her time hunting for that spot but never finds it again. When I read it, I sort of got the idea of the alien as an extrapolation of the parts of other people you don't understand. You still have to share space with people, sometimes you even try to make that intimacy happen, but so many times, it's a miss, you know? You don't know what they want and they can't seem to tell you, and you hurt each other, or make each other miserable, or just do something that feels empty and meaningless, because you don't know how to bridge that gap.

Anyway, that's what I got out of Spar. A parable about terrible relationships.

Thanks to Scattercat for posting the interview link. I'ma go read that now.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Obleo21 on July 21, 2010, 06:32:13 PM
I never got  the sense that the alien ever considered what they were doing to be sex as it is perceived by humans.  I also thought that the MC also thought this, but didn't know how else to express it.  Perhaps this is why the MC refers to it's malleable body parts as ins and outs rather than by more anatomical terms.  It's impossible however to ignore the sum of individual experience, so the MC could still have the visceral reaction of the interaction being rape.

At a fundamental level, it is still interpersonal interaction.  If the MC didn't return to the alien after eating/pooping, than she'd be truly alone.  Which would be worse?

What if the alien wasn't one creature but a community like coral, and each time she was penetrated it was with a completely unique individual...

I think I'll read Johnson's interview now...
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: knigget on July 21, 2010, 11:35:08 PM
I never got  the sense that the alien ever considered what they were doing to be sex as it is perceived by humans.  I also thought that the MC also thought this, but didn't know how else to express it.  Perhaps this is why the MC refers to it's malleable body parts as ins and outs rather than by more anatomical terms.  It's impossible however to ignore the sum of individual experience, so the MC could still have the visceral reaction of the interaction being rape.

At a fundamental level, it is still interpersonal interaction.  If the MC didn't return to the alien after eating/pooping, than she'd be truly alone.  Which would be worse?

What if the alien wasn't one creature but a community like coral, and each time she was penetrated it was with a completely unique individual...


I didn't think there was a way to make the MC's experience worse, in the story.

I didn't think of a gang rape, though.  Guess I'm just not... evil enough.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Obleo21 on July 21, 2010, 11:49:05 PM
I never got  the sense that the alien ever considered what they were doing to be sex as it is perceived by humans.  I also thought that the MC also thought this, but didn't know how else to express it.  Perhaps this is why the MC refers to it's malleable body parts as ins and outs rather than by more anatomical terms.  It's impossible however to ignore the sum of individual experience, so the MC could still have the visceral reaction of the interaction being rape.

At a fundamental level, it is still interpersonal interaction.  If the MC didn't return to the alien after eating/pooping, than she'd be truly alone.  Which would be worse?

What if the alien wasn't one creature but a community like coral, and each time she was penetrated it was with a completely unique individual...


I didn't think there was a way to make the MC's experience worse, in the story.

I didn't think of a gang rape, though.  Guess I'm just not... evil enough.

Yes, very very evil (should have included the  :P emoticon)

But really, we know nothing at all about the alien.  It could be anything.  It could have been surviving by ingesting the salt from her bodily secretions.  It could have been looking for the off switch.  What if it was an infant alien.  Maybe it thought it was playing a musical instrument. 
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: knigget on July 22, 2010, 02:26:17 AM
I never got  the sense that the alien ever considered what they were doing to be sex as it is perceived by humans.  I also thought that the MC also thought this, but didn't know how else to express it.  Perhaps this is why the MC refers to it's malleable body parts as ins and outs rather than by more anatomical terms.  It's impossible however to ignore the sum of individual experience, so the MC could still have the visceral reaction of the interaction being rape.

At a fundamental level, it is still interpersonal interaction.  If the MC didn't return to the alien after eating/pooping, than she'd be truly alone.  Which would be worse?

What if the alien wasn't one creature but a community like coral, and each time she was penetrated it was with a completely unique individual...



I didn't think there was a way to make the MC's experience worse, in the story.

I didn't think of a gang rape, though.  Guess I'm just not... evil enough.

Yes, very very evil (should have included the  :P emoticon)

But really, we know nothing at all about the alien.  It could be anything.  It could have been surviving by ingesting the salt from her bodily secretions.  It could have been looking for the off switch.  What if it was an infant alien.  Maybe it thought it was playing a musical instrument. 

GO WRITE THAT STORY!  NOW!  :D
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on July 22, 2010, 02:33:09 AM
I wonder if writing a "human having sex with a baby alien" story would get the police called on you.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: gateaux on July 22, 2010, 04:36:40 AM
No comment on the story this week as I decided to skip this one and just listen to the meta - Only comment to add about the meta is that I would not accept the word of Orson Scott Card without backing from somewhere else when it comes to matters of sex as the man is an extremely active homophobe.

Card is a homophobe? I did not know! That surprises me since Ender's Game is chock full of male nudity and slippery soaped up nude boys grappling each other. That actually makes me laugh a lot.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: gateaux on July 22, 2010, 04:59:36 AM
I've got to say I was disappointed with "Spar". I was expecting more, given some comments I saw on "Bridesicle". Not too much I can say that others haven't already; cop out ending, not too much plot. However, the piece was gripping, memorable and made me feel a bit icky so it did its job. I thought it was really good writing with a crazy concept, though may have been relying on shock value a bit.

There was so much penetration in "Spar" that I felt like I should be pregnant at the end of it. No alien babies yet, though, guys. Just a heads up.

Can't really conclude if I liked it or not yet... But I can say that "Bridesicle" still stands as my favourite from this Hugo round.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: CryptoMe on July 22, 2010, 07:28:07 AM
Quote
and she does get some gratification from it (I don't think she would be releasing secretions otherwise),

That is not how the female body works.  It does not work like the male body.  The vagina actually lubricates itself pretty much at the drop of a hat, even during horrific rapes etc.  Best theory right now is that this is a defensive measure, evolved to prevent internal injuries in the event of sexual assault (most animals don't do a lot of asking permission first.)

LOL!! I would love to know who you have been sleeping with, because this has NOT been my experience!!
Vaginal tearing most definitely does occur with rape, and even sometimes in consentual sex, because this "drop of a hat" lubricating vagina just doesn't exist for most women. 

Quote
The woman's motivation is never addressed... but for the life of me, I can't figure out why. In this respect, it's very much like porn.
Motivations can be complicated.  She can both enjoy it and loathe it.  Again, it speaks a lot to abusive relationships, where there are complex and conflicting desires at work.  Porn is sex without any motivations at all.
Not arguing about the complexity of motivations. Just saying the author never addressed them.


Quote
The author may have enjoyed themselves, but I did not.
I am getting REALLY tired of people insinuating that Kij Johnson wrote this to get her jollies off.  I linked to an interview with her about the piece and its genesis.  You can read it for yourself.
Sorry. Didn't mean to imply the author got sexual gratification in writing this. What I was trying to say is that whatever enjoyment the author did get in writing this (pride, catharsis, what-ever), they failed to take me with them.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: CryptoMe on July 22, 2010, 09:00:17 AM
CryptoMe: With respect, the comment about her being aroused because the character lubricated is ignorant.  It is an autonomic process, your statement reminds me of a senator who speculated that pregnancy from rape was impossible because 'the juices just don't flow'.  Adding the bit about the author using the story as a sexual release is repugnant, I hope I misunderstood your insinuation.
Wow, somebody actually said that? 
Henry Aldridge: ""The facts show that people who are raped, who are truly raped—the juices don’t flow, the body functions don’t work, and they don’t get pregnant.""
CryptoMe's comment suggests to me that this type of thinking still exists.  Embarrassing.

Wow. Thunderscreech, I don't even know where to begin...Yes, you definitely misunderstood me.

I did not say she was aroused because she was lubricated. What I said was:
She herself initiates it at times and she does get some gratification from it (I don't think she would be releasing secretions otherwise).
1) This was all in the context of trying to understand the character's motivations. The main point being that she *does* initiate the sex at times. Why? Her motivations are not explored in the story and that is a big weakness for me.
2) The story talks about both of their "ejeculations"; I interpret this to mean female ejactulation in her case. This is the "released secretions" I was referring to, not normal vaginal lubrication. Sorry if I was unclear.
3) Female ejaculation does require some kind of climax, and therefore provides physiological gratification. Whether this is consentual in this case, I don't know. I wish the story addressed that better, so that I could understand the character's motivations.   

I said nothing about the author using the story as a sexual release. What I said was:
This was the literary analog of watching someone masturbate. The author may have enjoyed themselves, but I did not.
I was using a metaphor, to say that the author made me feel abandoned. They may have enjoyed the process of writing this story (felt pride, accomplishment, whatever), but they failed to take me along with them. Maybe I should have just said "It's like watching someone else play a video game".... but then I'm sure someone could have interpreted that sexually too.

In regards to your senator quote, this is a strawman. It is a well established fact that enjoyment or even consent is not required for conception. And, it is completely unrelated to what I actually said. Please be a bit more careful about putting words in my mouth and then judging me harshly on them.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: CryptoMe on July 22, 2010, 09:02:03 AM
Interview with Kij Johnson about "Spar." (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/johnson_interview/)

Just read that.  Summed up in one brilliant line:

And a story about sex with an alien because it's that or die of boredom.

LOL!! What a horrible reason to have sex   :D
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: davedoty on July 22, 2010, 10:21:36 AM
Card is a homophobe? I did not know! That surprises me since Ender's Game is chock full of male nudity and slippery soaped up nude boys grappling each other. That actually makes me laugh a lot.

Not to derail the thread, but one quick piece of evidence, in a quote directly from Card:

Quote
How long before married people answer the dictators thus: Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down, so it can be replaced with a government that will respect and support marriage, and help me raise my children in a society where they will expect to marry in their turn.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 22, 2010, 01:39:02 PM
LOL!! I would love to know who you have been sleeping with, because this has NOT been my experience!!
Vaginal tearing most definitely does occur with rape, and even sometimes in consentual sex, because this "drop of a hat" lubricating vagina just doesn't exist for most women.

I'm referring to studies done about arousal.  They checked penile tumescence and vaginal lubrication via blood flow monitors and showed people pictures of a variety of things while asking them to rate how turned on they were.  Men in general reacted physically to the images they said aroused them, but women reacted physically to *anything* even vaguely sexual, from monkeys mating to an aerobics class to suggestively shapes cakes, and completely without regard to their reported feelings of arousal.  Were all of these women actually just perverts who secretly got off on monkeys?  The study concluded (much more reasonably, to my mind) that a woman's physical response is nowhere near as strongly tied as a male's physical response to mental attraction and arousal, and is likely an automatic response to sexual images or situations in which the body tries to protect itself from forced invasion.

But that's okay.  Keep telling women that if they get wet, they're turned on and getting gratification.  It doesn't have any implications for rape victims dealing with their trauma or anything.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: MCWagner on July 22, 2010, 02:54:58 PM
Card is a homophobe? I did not know! That surprises me since Ender's Game is chock full of male nudity and slippery soaped up nude boys grappling each other. That actually makes me laugh a lot.
 

Card is a rather outspoken Mormon.  He takes a lot of heat for unabashedly supporting Mormon values, particularly his being against gay marriage.  While the stuff he writes on the topic is... well... impassioned to the point of crazy... I think there's also an echo-chamber effect because the realm of speculative fiction is generally more accepting on this topic than in the general public.

For a lot of people, Card is their first experience with the inner turmoil that is "I love his work... but he personally seems like a terrible person."   (I, a fan of HPL and Cerebus, fought through that long ago.)  The webcomic "Something Positive" did a series obviously inspired by this conflict: http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp03132005.shtml  (NSFW, language).
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Listener on July 22, 2010, 04:27:22 PM
I didn't think there was a way to make the MC's experience worse, in the story.

I didn't think of a gang rape, though.  Guess I'm just not... evil enough.

If the alien is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_king_%28folklore%29), then maybe it was.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Thunderscreech on July 22, 2010, 05:36:38 PM
I didn't think there was a way to make the MC's experience worse, in the story.

I didn't think of a gang rape, though.  Guess I'm just not... evil enough.

If the alien is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_king_%28folklore%29), then maybe it was.
Yeeargh!  Bleach, I need bleach for my brain.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: CleverScreenName on July 22, 2010, 06:22:36 PM
I didn't think there was a way to make the MC's experience worse, in the story.

I didn't think of a gang rape, though.  Guess I'm just not... evil enough.

If the alien is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_king_%28folklore%29), then maybe it was.
That is fascinating. What do they do when one of the rats dies? Drag it around as literal dead weight? Must suck to be the last rat standing.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: ElectricPaladin on July 22, 2010, 06:30:18 PM
I didn't think there was a way to make the MC's experience worse, in the story.

I didn't think of a gang rape, though.  Guess I'm just not... evil enough.

If the alien is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_king_%28folklore%29), then maybe it was.
Yeeargh!  Bleach, I need bleach for my brain.

This is why I never click the links. Never click the link!
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: CryptoMe on July 22, 2010, 06:40:24 PM
LOL!! I would love to know who you have been sleeping with, because this has NOT been my experience!!
Vaginal tearing most definitely does occur with rape, and even sometimes in consentual sex, because this "drop of a hat" lubricating vagina just doesn't exist for most women.

I'm referring to studies done about arousal.  They checked penile tumescence and vaginal lubrication via blood flow monitors and showed people pictures of a variety of things while asking them to rate how turned on they were.  Men in general reacted physically to the images they said aroused them, but women reacted physically to *anything* even vaguely sexual, from monkeys mating to an aerobics class to suggestively shapes cakes, and completely without regard to their reported feelings of arousal.  Were all of these women actually just perverts who secretly got off on monkeys?  The study concluded (much more reasonably, to my mind) that a woman's physical response is nowhere near as strongly tied as a male's physical response to mental attraction and arousal, and is likely an automatic response to sexual images or situations in which the body tries to protect itself from forced invasion.

But that's okay.  Keep telling women that if they get wet, they're turned on and getting gratification.  It doesn't have any implications for rape victims dealing with their trauma or anything.

I see a few places where I seem to be having a very different discussion than other people. Let me see if I can address those.

1) Physiological vs. Mental arousal
I think it's pretty common knowledge that physiological arousal does not equal mental arousal. So, we need to be very clear which one we are talking about in any particular point.

2) Lubrication vs. Arousal
I checked on GoogleScholar but couldn't track down the study Scattercat refers to, so I can't comment on that specifically. But, *by definition*, lubrication is a component of physiological arousal. Now, that doesn't mean that physiological arousal is a necessary and sufficient condition for lubrication. Many women don't lubricate even upon full physical arousal (that's where K-Y jelly comes in). Conversely, lubrication can be completely unrelated to arousal (of any kind), due to factors such as ovulation, disease, etc. So, its actually even more complex than an autonomic response. 

3) Arousal vs. Consent
The legal community seems pretty clear on the concept that arousal (of any kind) does NOT equal consent. So, even if someone were to consider lubrication = arousal, it doesn't follow that they immediately jump to lubrication = consent. We need to be very careful in attributing such a jump to others.

4) Ejaculation vs. Lubrication
My original post was actually about female ejaculation, not lubrication. Ejaculation does involve release, and so physiological gratification. Again, gratification does not legally equal consent. So, here too, we need to be very careful in attributing such assumptions to others.   

5) Lubrication: Rape vs. Bad Lover
I understand that those who took offense at my post are approaching the whole lubrication thing from the point of "We don't want society telling a woman that because she ejeculated, moaned, was lubricated, what-ever, it wasn't rape". That's a vary noble and valid goal. I am approaching the lubrication discussion from the point of "We don't want a lazy lover thinking he doesn't need to worry about foreplay, because the woman will "juice up" as soon as he penetrates her". In my opinion, stamping out that kind of thinking will benefit many more women on a daily basis, and so is an equally noble and valid goal.   

I hope that this clarifies my position, and that everyone will now understand that I never said any of the things people keep assuming I did. 

On a side note, I have been completely blown over, and thereby intrigued, by how people bring their own biases to the discussion and impose those on other people's statements. I think we all need to be more careful about that.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: CryptoMe on July 22, 2010, 07:04:32 PM
For a lot of people, Card is their first experience with the inner turmoil that is "I love his work... but he personally seems like a terrible person." 

I would actually go one further and say that OSC is an "idiot savant" in this respect. Here's one example of why I say this:

I read his Mormon opus Saints once. I liked the book, but felt it showed the Mormon religion in a *very* unflattering light. Then I read an interview by him where he gushed about how Saints is this great work of Mormon fiction, promoting the religion to the unconverted. My conclusion, he's a genius, but doesn't consciously understand what he does or how....
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on July 22, 2010, 09:36:59 PM
On a side note, I have been completely blown over, and thereby intrigued, by how people bring their own biases to the discussion and impose those on other people's statements. I think we all need to be more careful about that.

I must point out that your initial comment occurred as part of a statement about how her own lubrication meant the female protagonist "must have gotten some gratification out of the situation," and implied that this somehow muddied the water of her motivation in fucking the alien.  The chain of logic that goes lubrication->gratification->"she wanted it on some level" is a deeply troubling one to me, and your initial comment appeared to be endorsing that point of view, particularly with the dismissive reference to the author "enjoying" writing the story (which you've already explained what you meant by that.)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: CryptoMe on July 22, 2010, 09:53:51 PM
The chain of logic that goes lubrication->gratification->"she wanted it on some level" is a deeply troubling one to me
Just so long as we're clear, this is *your* chain of logic, not mine.

... and your initial comment appeared to be endorsing that point of view
And appearances can be deceiving. We all need to be more careful about that. 
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Thunderscreech on July 22, 2010, 10:38:13 PM
With the utmost in respect, CryptoMe, a BUNCH of us came to the same conclusion based on what you wrote, so while it's important that we read carefully, you would agree that it's reasonable to suggest that you may have a certain amount of responsibility for how your text was interpreted.  Your followup responses all seem to place the entire onus on us 'misunderstanding' you without apparent recognition that your words might have contributed to that interpretation.

Just some feedback...
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: CryptoMe on July 22, 2010, 10:57:15 PM
With the utmost in respect, CryptoMe, a BUNCH of us came to the same conclusion based on what you wrote, so while it's important that we read carefully, you would agree that it's reasonable to suggest that you may have a certain amount of responsibility for how your text was interpreted.  Your followup responses all seem to place the entire onus on us 'misunderstanding' you without apparent recognition that your words might have contributed to that interpretation.

Just some feedback...
Oh, I fully acknowledge that I was obviously not clear in my original post. I've apologized several times for not spelling out female ejaculation explicitly. And I continue to maintain that "we all" needed to be more cautious.

I guess what surprised me most was how difficult it was to set the record straight. Especially when assumptions and connections that I would never think to make were being attributed to me. :-\  I was away from the forums for a few days and in that time my words took on a weird and twisted life all their own. Very scary experience. I will definitely be more cautious next time.

Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Boggled Coriander on July 23, 2010, 05:58:54 AM
For a lot of people, Card is their first experience with the inner turmoil that is "I love his work... but he personally seems like a terrible person." 

I would actually go one further and say that OSC is an "idiot savant" in this respect. Here's one example of why I say this:

I read his Mormon opus Saints once. I liked the book, but felt it showed the Mormon religion in a *very* unflattering light. Then I read an interview by him where he gushed about how Saints is this great work of Mormon fiction, promoting the religion to the unconverted. My conclusion, he's a genius, but doesn't consciously understand what he does or how....

I've read Card's fiction.  It's beautiful and intelligent.  I've read Card's opinions on culture and politics.  He seems to be writing for people with no critical thinking skills whatsoever.

Now, I bet someone out there wants to say, "But, Boggled!  He's writing commentary for an audience of Mormons and other conservative religious people.  You're not a member of his target audience!"

And I'm thinking about how I've met plenty of religious Mormons who seem to be intelligent, astute people.  And I don't know what they think of homosexuality, because we never had that conversation, but I would imagine that if they held the view that homosexuality is a sin, then they'd defend it with the same intelligence they brought to bear in other aspects of their lives.  And they'd respect my intelligence.

Card just insults mine.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Boggled Coriander on July 23, 2010, 06:43:07 AM
Okay, I'm a bit embarrassed that that was my only contribution to this thread, so...

I liked "Spar".  I don't think it would be my choice for Hugo winner ("Bridesicle" hit me in a much more visceral way) but it more than kept my interest.  Stories that delve deeply into the psyche of a character, if done right, have a knack for gripping my brain and not letting go, and for whatever reason the grip is even tighter if I'm listening to it narrated rather than reading it off the page.  This was excellent psychological horror.

The sex alone didn't shock me, though.  It didn't need to.  The body horror did the trick, and the sex was a part of it, and in no way detracted from it.  I didn't see this as a story about sex.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Unblinking on July 23, 2010, 05:32:53 PM
For a lot of people, Card is their first experience with the inner turmoil that is "I love his work... but he personally seems like a terrible person." 

I would actually go one further and say that OSC is an "idiot savant" in this respect. Here's one example of why I say this:

I read his Mormon opus Saints once. I liked the book, but felt it showed the Mormon religion in a *very* unflattering light. Then I read an interview by him where he gushed about how Saints is this great work of Mormon fiction, promoting the religion to the unconverted. My conclusion, he's a genius, but doesn't consciously understand what he does or how....

I hadn't heard of his views on gay marriage until after I'd interviewed him for my site(http://www.diabolicalplots.com/?p=1042).  (Not that I would have chosen not to interview him, but I just didn't know).  Perhaps not surprisingly, one of the commenters posted links to articles directly quoting his views if anyone's interested.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: gateaux on July 27, 2010, 12:36:47 AM
For a lot of people, Card is their first experience with the inner turmoil that is "I love his work... but he personally seems like a terrible person." 

I would actually go one further and say that OSC is an "idiot savant" in this respect. Here's one example of why I say this:

I read his Mormon opus Saints once. I liked the book, but felt it showed the Mormon religion in a *very* unflattering light. Then I read an interview by him where he gushed about how Saints is this great work of Mormon fiction, promoting the religion to the unconverted. My conclusion, he's a genius, but doesn't consciously understand what he does or how....

I've read Card's fiction.  It's beautiful and intelligent.  I've read Card's opinions on culture and politics.  He seems to be writing for people with no critical thinking skills whatsoever.

Now, I bet someone out there wants to say, "But, Boggled!  He's writing commentary for an audience of Mormons and other conservative religious people.  You're not a member of his target audience!"

And I'm thinking about how I've met plenty of religious Mormons who seem to be intelligent, astute people.  And I don't know what they think of homosexuality, because we never had that conversation, but I would imagine that if they held the view that homosexuality is a sin, then they'd defend it with the same intelligence they brought to bear in other aspects of their lives.  And they'd respect my intelligence.

Card just insults mine.

I agree, I like his work! Although I haven't read his "Mormon opus". But now I feel so disappointed and confused... Damn it, Card!
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Thunderscreech on July 27, 2010, 05:46:18 PM
I still consider Ender's Game one of the finest books I've ever read, and perhaps even my favorite book.  I choose to enjoy (or not) a book on the merits of the book, not the personality of the author.  Anyone here like Harlan Ellison's writing?  Why am I asking?  Oh, no reason.  But I've heard he's a character at parties...
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on July 27, 2010, 06:01:15 PM
Harlan Ellison is mostly just tempermental, rather than a hatemonger. As I understand it he makes a fantastic friend and a dire, dire enemy. One of those types. :)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: FireTurtle on July 27, 2010, 08:17:23 PM
Well, I finally got around to listening. Ironically, I was drilling holes in my garage walls at the time. It added an eerie dimension to this already bizarre piece. I've got to say I was expecting something more from this after all the hyper hear on the forums. Perhaps ignorance of the furor would have aided my enjoyment. But, it did nothing for me. I just couldn't identify with the character enough to care. I think the writing was good and the concept was interesting but....it failed for me.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: CryptoMe on July 28, 2010, 02:26:18 AM
I still consider Ender's Game one of the finest books I've ever read, and perhaps even my favorite book.  I choose to enjoy (or not) a book on the merits of the book, not the personality of the author.

I absolutely agree! Ender's Game is wonderful. I even liked Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and some of his other works. But if you read his commentary on these, it becomes very clear that what he thinks he's saying in his books and what most people get from his books are completely different things. So, I just ignore the man and enjoy the literature.....   ;)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on July 28, 2010, 06:21:07 PM
Ender's Game is wonderful. I even liked Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and some of his other works. But if you read his commentary on these, it becomes very clear that what he thinks he's saying in his books and what most people get from his books are completely different things. So, I just ignore the man and enjoy the literature.....   ;)

Yes, I still enjoy those too, particularly Speaker. However, at least partly as a result of finding out how much I dislike most of his views, I find I've stopped reading anything new from him.

The other part of the reason is that he seemed to have stopped finding new worlds to write about and started setting everything in the universe of Ender.  It got somewhat old.  (For all I know, he may have gotten out of that rut more recently.)  I think the last book of his that I really enjoyed was Pastwatch.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: TripleAught on August 01, 2010, 03:11:31 AM
Not going to read this whole thread. Sounds like it's been a doozy.

The visceral images in Spar made it hard for me to pursue the deeper, psychological implications the author was trying to explore.  Well-written but just not for me.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on August 01, 2010, 04:07:05 AM
Not going to read this whole thread. Sounds like it's been a doozy.

The visceral images in Spar made it hard for me to pursue the deeper, psychological implications the author was trying to explore.  Well-written but just not for me.

As one of the more vociferous and dogmatic voices in defense of "Spar," I'd just like to say that THIS statement makes perfect sense to me, and I would not blame anyone for holding such an opinion.  "The images were too unpleasant for me" is a completely viable reaction.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Schreiber on August 02, 2010, 09:33:49 PM
"The images were too unpleasant for me" is a completely viable reaction.

Yeah, I don't know about that.

To be sure, there are some people who just don't like graphic violence, sex, or combinations thereof. Nothing wrong with that. There are also some people who don't like chocolate. But if you dump three pounds of unsweetened baker's chocolate into a steaming pot of mushroom risotto, it's a little precious to tell critics "Oh, you just must not be a chocolate person. Well, it takes all kinds." There are no hard and fast rules to fiction writing or cooking, but even so...you can screw up the recipe, even if there isn't a recipe to screw up.

And yes, so that we're clear, in this instance the mushroom risotto is the subgenre of hard science fiction and the three pounds of unsweetened chocolate is the sex to which the lion's share of the story is dedicated to describing.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on August 02, 2010, 09:49:19 PM
I apparently enjoy my mushroom risotto with three pounds of unsweetened chocolate. :)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: DKT on August 02, 2010, 10:04:11 PM
"The images were too unpleasant for me" is a completely viable reaction.

Yeah, I don't know about that.

To be sure, there are some people who just don't like graphic violence, sex, or combinations thereof. Nothing wrong with that. There are also some people who don't like chocolate. But if you dump three pounds of unsweetened baker's chocolate into a steaming pot of mushroom risotto, it's a little precious to tell critics "Oh, you just must not be a chocolate person. Well, it takes all kinds." There are no hard and fast rules to fiction writing or cooking, but even so...you can screw up the recipe, even if there isn't a recipe to screw up.

And yes, so that we're clear, in this instance the mushroom risotto is the subgenre of hard science fiction and the three pounds of unsweetened chocolate is the sex to which the lion's share of the story is dedicated to describing.

Schreiber, I'm a bit confused by your comment, and your reaction to Scattercat's comment. I don't get that he's disregarding your reaction to this story as saying "Well, all the people who don't like 'Spar' just don't like sex in SF, so obviously they don't like this" or whatever. I took his comment pretty much at face value. If someone doesn't like fiction with such visceral descriptions, then they don't/won't like this story. That doesn't mean you can't like the story for other reasons.

And while I appreciate that you don't like this story, it seems like you're suggesting that people who do like it maybe don't know how to cook or don't understand an inherently screwed-up recipe when they taste it.

I know you know how to cook, and maybe I'm reading your comments wrong here. But although I respect your opinion on this story, I don't necessarily agree with it, and I definitely don't buy that the recipe was inherently broken.

OTOH, I'm perfectly willing to accept that while "Spar" worked for some people, it doesn't work for others for a variety of reasons. (See also: Pretty much every Hugo nominated short story featured here at EP.)

I don't think that mean's the recipe is wrong; just that not everybody shares the same tastes, even if we all do love mushroom risotto.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Schreiber on August 02, 2010, 11:25:09 PM
Well, DKT, you cut to the quick. It's an absolutely fair question you are asking: if people take pleasure from a work of art, is anyone else ever entitled to say anything about it worse than it wasn't to their taste?

I would say yes. The gods of equanimity cannot save this story. Yes, some people like it. It successfully achieved the goal of satisfying an audience. And it's still bad.

I'm reminded a little of Julia Roberts' character from The Pelican Brief. Her law professor asks her position on a particular case, she gives it, and he then informs her that the Supreme Court disagrees with her. When he asks her to continue, she says simply that the Supreme Court is wrong. Which, my attorney friends tell me, is considered an unacceptable answer in law school. The scene is meant to establish her character as intellectually precocious and plucky. You don't say the Supreme Court is wrong when you're a lawyer. The Supreme Court tells you whether you're wrong.

Well, in this instance, the Hugo nominating committee is wrong. A thousand SF fans can be, and are, wrong. This story sucks. It's just shrewd enough to suck in the style of Lisa Lampenelli. You point out that she's not funny and she strategically asserts that you must be  too politically correct or too insecure to appreciate her humor.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: eytanz on August 02, 2010, 11:56:11 PM
Well, DKT, you cut to the quick. It's an absolutely fair question you are asking: if people take pleasure from a work of art, is anyone else ever entitled to say anything about it worse than it wasn't to their taste?

I would say yes. The gods of equanimity cannot save this story. Yes, some people like it. It successfully achieved the goal of satisfying an audience. And it's still bad.

I'm reminded a little of Julia Roberts' character from The Pelican Brief. Her law professor asks her position on a particular case, she gives it, and he then informs her that the Supreme Court disagrees with her. When he asks her to continue, she says simply that the Supreme Court is wrong. Which, my attorney friends tell me, is considered an unacceptable answer in law school. The scene is meant to establish her character as intellectually precocious and plucky. You don't say the Supreme Court is wrong when you're a lawyer. The Supreme Court tells you whether you're wrong.

Well, in this instance, the Hugo nominating committee is wrong. A thousand SF fans can be, and are, wrong. This story sucks. It's just shrewd enough to suck in the style of Lisa Lampenelli. You point out that she's not funny and she strategically asserts that you must be  too politically correct or too insecure to appreciate her humor.

Well, if we're going to hold the debate on this level - and I mean this entirely without prejudice, as I think this is a valid, though not necessarily very satisfying, level to have a debate at - no. You're the one that's wrong. And the one thing that is different in the supreme court analogy is that if you are to be a lawyer in America, you make a commitment (which I think is a formal vow) to uphold the laws of the country, and that commitment includes recognizing the authority of the supreme court as the final arbitrator. I, on the other hand, have made no commitment to recognize your opinion as more valid than mine. You can tell me I'm wrong as much as you want, and I'll say you're wrong right back at you. Unless you choose to provide any explanation of why you think I'm wrong, other than just "sex and SF don't mix" - which isn't so much an explanation but a dictate on the limits of SF - then we're done debating.

For what it's worth, I don't like the story. I wasn't satisfied by it. I found it difficult and frustrating and challenging. It made me uncomfortable and it made me think. It made me realize things about myself that I haven't really thought about (in that way) before. It made me feel claustrophobic while I was standing outside in a park. It made me wince with pain. It made me wince with pity. I don't particularly like it for any of that. I admire it. I think it is great art. It is unpleasant, but art isn't about pleasantness. This is one of the best stories I've read in a long time. And, for all those reasons and more, if someone tells me it sucks - not that they didn't like it, or didn't approve of it, or didn't enjoy it, or that it wasn't to their taste, but that it sucked - well then, that person is wrong.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Schreiber on August 03, 2010, 12:58:23 AM
In my defense, I did explain at great lengths earlier in this thread why I didn't like this story. I think you misapprehend my position, Eyetanz. My dislike for this story -and indeed my dislike for most stories I dislike- doesn't fall into the category of "not to my taste" or "does not meet with my approval." Stories that use sex in dynamic and interesting ways are to my taste and stories that ignore taboos meet with my approval. I approve of this story. It's to my taste in many ways. I just don't like it. And I know why I don't like it. It's self-indulgent and unthoughtful, and lacks the self-awareness to grasp that it is self-indulgent and unthoughtful.

Now if someone doesn't like a story and they don't know why they don't like it, then it's safe to say it's a matter of taste. And to be honest, I really, really hate it when people talk about how they don't "agree" with a story. Stories are not meant to be agreed with or disagreed with. They're meant to be stories. In terms of personal ideologies, Tim O'Brien is way the hell closer to me than Flannery O'Connor, but the one is an exploitative mediocrity while the other is a master storyteller.

In general, when people love a work of art they often have rationales for their love, which they articulate enthusiastically and emphatically. In order for positive reception to stand up, doesn't there need to be room for its opposite?
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Talia on August 03, 2010, 02:28:07 AM
Well, my problem with your argument is saying the hugos, and fans, and everyone who liked this story, is "wrong."

My opinion is 100% right, thank you very much, much as I'm sure your opinion is 100% right for YOU. Saying "your opinion of this is WRONG" will never really succeed as an argument, because it makes people defensive. Your opinion being different doesn't invalidate everyone else's opinion.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on August 03, 2010, 02:47:54 AM
@Schreiber
Your prior arguments were that Kij Johnson was too much of a pervy tentacle fancier to write a tentacle porn story without obsessing over the tentacle porn aspect.  Given that this requires a substantial level of mind-reading capability on your part, I'm going to continue to discount it until I see something from Kij Johnson that indicates to me that you're even in the ballpark about her.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: eytanz on August 03, 2010, 02:49:49 AM
In my defense, I did explain at great lengths earlier in this thread why I didn't like this story.

You're right, I apologize - I did look back in the thread, but not back enough.

Quote
I think you misapprehend my position, Eyetanz. My dislike for this story -and indeed my dislike for most stories I dislike- doesn't fall into the category of "not to my taste" or "does not meet with my approval.".

No, it's you that misapprehend my position (and apparently, the spelling of my name). I wasn't providing interpretations of your position, I was listing alternate positions that I find more understandable than yours.

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Stories that use sex in dynamic and interesting ways are to my taste and stories that ignore taboos meet with my approval. I approve of this story. It's to my taste in many ways. I just don't like it. And I know why I don't like it. It's self-indulgent and unthoughtful, and lacks the self-awareness to grasp that it is self-indulgent and unthoughtful.

I find it interesting that you seem to be claiming that your dislike for this story is objective because you "know why [you] don't like it", but the two reasons you give are entirely subjective. Unless you can show me you have some objective criteria to measuring self-indulgence or thoughtfulness, you've just found a more elaborate way to say "I don't like this because it didn't appeal to me".

And note that I agree with a lot of your earlier, more objective assessments now that I've gone back and read them, even if I disagree that they are particularly problematic. This is definitely not a perfect story; and it's definitely not a story that succeeds on every possible level of interpretation. That's ok, because it doesn't really try to succeed on every possible level (and if that counts as self-indulgence and unthoughfulness, than most great art is self-indulgent and unthoughtful); it's enough, for me, that it suceeded in the ways I listed in my previous post.

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In general, when people love a work of art they often have rationales for their love, which they articulate enthusiastically and emphatically. In order for positive reception to stand up, doesn't there need to be room for its opposite?

Certainly there is (and I have made the same point myself in other threads - not to mention that I have been critical of stories in the past, sometimes against a far less divided positivity than this story would ever garner). I do not begrudge you your view of the story, at all. But when you equate the validity of your position to that of a supreme court ruling, and claim that those who disagree with you are simply wrong - and not because they got the facts of the story wrong, but simply because they did not take what you saw to be flaws as such - then frankly, you're making a fool of yourself.

Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Schreiber on August 03, 2010, 04:50:10 AM
Actually, I was equating myself to Julia Roberts. Perhaps even more presumptuous!

And sorry about the spelling, Eytanz.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: eytanz on August 03, 2010, 05:42:07 AM
Actually, I was equating myself to Julia Roberts. Perhaps even more presumptuous!

Ah, well, I guess I did misapprehend you somewhat. My apologies.

Though I still think that your claim that anyone who got something out of this story that you didn't is wrong is rather ridiculous.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on August 03, 2010, 01:01:28 PM
Actually, I was equating myself to Julia Roberts. Perhaps even more presumptuous!

Ah, well, I guess I did misapprehend you somewhat. My apologies.

Though I still think that your claim that anyone who got something out of this story that you didn't is wrong is rather ridiculous.

But he can prove it!  See, he didn't like it.  The gods and the universe are on his side.  Quod erat demonstratum, ipso facto.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: DKT on August 03, 2010, 01:37:38 PM
Actually, I was equating myself to Julia Roberts. Perhaps even more presumptuous!

You, sir, are no Julia Roberts  ;)

Well, DKT, you cut to the quick. It's an absolutely fair question you are asking: if people take pleasure from a work of art, is anyone else ever entitled to say anything about it worse than it wasn't to their taste?

I would say yes. The gods of equanimity cannot save this story. Yes, some people like it. It successfully achieved the goal of satisfying an audience. And it's still bad.

I don't think that's what I was suggesting. I'm perfectly comfortable liking a story other people do not like. I guess I'm surprised you are suggesting people opinions are wrong - the story is actually bad - broken, in fact. It doesn't work - not just for you - it doesn't work on any level. And if someone thinks it does, they are wrong.

That seems off to me.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: KaylingR on August 03, 2010, 01:55:47 PM
Quote
And yes, so that we're clear, in this instance the mushroom risotto is the subgenre of hard science fiction and the three pounds of unsweetened chocolate is the sex to which the lion's share of the story is dedicated to describing.

Hmm, well here's a problem. I don't think it's mushroom risotto. Spar's not hard SF. Spar's about soft, gooey things like connecting to other entities and communication and is any of that really possible when we're such different creatures, and how horrific would it be if we were so alienated from each other all we had left to us were ins and outs. She uses the capsule isolated in space as a symbolic landscape, rather than a literal projection of how the universe could be. Or, because I shouldn't try to speak for the author, I should say that's how I've been thinking about it since it first appeared on Clarke's World. And I have been thinking.   

Its scope is intenesly personal.  She looses her lover, not her employer, or her political entity, or colleague, but the person she was most viscerally involved with in the universe and ends up questioning whether they ever really connected, so yeah, probably the physical act that generally represents greatest intimacy between equals needs to be part of that story.  Twisted into an act of further alienation. 

Of course, personally, I think most things can be improved by good, dark chocolate.  Bittersweet, Bakers, mmm, bring it on. But mushroom risotto? Not so much.  And it's hard for me to believe there's no place in hard SF for any sex.  Not if hard SF is going to have anything to say about gender, or reproduction, or basic human attraction. But that's not what this disturbing gem set out to do. 






Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Schreiber on August 03, 2010, 05:27:52 PM
What seems to be irritating everybody is the impression that I'm claiming that my opinion is the final word on a story. Of course it's not. Of course I don't believe it is. That would be silly. It's also silly to preface every sentence with the words "I think" or "In my opinion" when most things we say and write are opinions that can be disagreed with. I mean can't we sort of take that for granted?
 
The truth is there are stories that I don't particularly like, but that I have no good reason for not liking. With those stories, I will go out of my way to make a distinction between my gut reaction and an objective criticism because the story has earned that privilege (here is where I would write "in my opinion" if I felt the need to include it in every sentence I wrote.) But "Spar" is not one of those stories and i don't feel the need to make that distinction with it. In fact, I feel the need not to. I think a retreat to flimsiness of subjectivity is misleadingly charitable and unfair to stories that do deserve to be recognized for their technical merit.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: eytanz on August 03, 2010, 05:34:43 PM
Well, in this instance, the Hugo nominating committee is wrong. A thousand SF fans can be, and are, wrong. This story sucks. It's just shrewd enough to suck in the style of Lisa Lampenelli. You point out that she's not funny and she strategically asserts that you must be  too politically correct or too insecure to appreciate her humor.

I can't see how this paragraph could be made any better with the explicit inclusion of "in my opinion". You're not expressing an opinion about the story, you're expressing an opinion about the people whose opinion of the story differs from yours.

No one is asking you to make a "retreat to flimsiness of subjectivity". You don't have to express anything but a categorical dislike to it. What I (and others) found surprising is your denial that there are any valid reasons to like it.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: DKT on August 03, 2010, 05:44:39 PM
Ah, eytanz beat me to it.

Of course, you don't need to tag everything with "IMO." That would be silly. But the paragraph eytanz quoted seems to be going beyond your opinion (which as I said earlier, I respect) and into this other thing I was pointing out, where you are insisting other people are wrong wrong wrong (and you are Julia Roberts). That just makes me kind of uncomfortable is all.

(Not the Julia Roberts part. Although I could see why that might make me uncomfortable, too.)

I dig reading how people react to this story (and others) in different ways. I don't like being told that since my reaction is different from yours, my reaction is wrong.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Schreiber on August 03, 2010, 09:30:15 PM
Well, I'm sorry. I guess drinks are on me. Or maybe I should bake you all a cake?
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: DKT on August 03, 2010, 09:58:16 PM
Only if you have a recipe that includes 3 lbs. of chocolate (give or take).
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Schreiber on August 03, 2010, 10:06:57 PM
How about if it's just shaped like the Internet?
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: DKT on August 03, 2010, 10:18:48 PM
Is it going to be baked to scale?
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Schreiber on August 03, 2010, 11:51:51 PM
Is it going to be baked to scale?

Anyone expecting the cake shaped like the Internet to be to scale is simply wrong!
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: ElectricPaladin on August 03, 2010, 11:57:28 PM
Is it going to be baked to scale?

Anyone expecting the cake shaped like the Internet to be to scale is simply wrong!

Not sized to scale, baked to scale, with the different parts at different degrees of cooked-ness depending on how half-baked that section of the internet is.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Schreiber on August 03, 2010, 11:59:47 PM
Touche, Electric Paladin.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Heradel on August 04, 2010, 08:03:27 PM
Is it going to be baked to scale?

Anyone expecting the cake shaped like the Internet to be to scale is simply wrong!

Not sized to scale, baked to scale, with the different parts at different degrees of cooked-ness depending on how half-baked that section of the internet is.

So three cubic centimeters of baked cake surrounded by a vast lake of cake batter then? I've had worse.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on August 04, 2010, 08:16:22 PM
:D
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: jay daze on August 09, 2010, 12:25:19 AM
An awesome, awesome story.  Caught it first on Clarkesworld and enjoyed this second go round on Escape Pod.  I've listened to and read a lot of stories this year - this one stuck in my head.  I like a good plot, but this was a refreshing change.  It captured a moment, a moment stretched into an eternity.  For me the protagonist never gets out of the escape pod, never escapes the embrace/grasp of the alien.  Kij Johnson captures a state of mind.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: LaShawn on September 23, 2010, 04:18:14 PM
Just getting around to listening to this, although I've already heard it on Clarkesworld. Good to hear Mur's voice again. I'm liking her sign-off. "Be Mighty." Indeed.

I guess this one didn't strike me as horrible as Bridescicle. True, the two are similar in that both protagonists are stuck in a situation they can't get out of except through outside sources. Which is worse: To be trapped in a spaceship humping an alien lifeform endlessly, or to be aware in fits and spurts, knowing ongoing existence lies in impressing a unsocial cad of your worth? I can see the horror that could be in Spar, and the insanity that could produce, but I guess it's not as visceral to me as seeing a fat man leaning over a coffin and seeing you not as a person, but as a thing to fulfill his own selfish pleasures. Guh.

It may be also that I have just finished reading Harlan Ellison's "How's the Night Life on Cissalda?", which has the same morbid, but more darkly humorous premise.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: The Far Stairs on October 09, 2010, 04:39:50 PM
Cheers, KenK! If I could get my hands on some brain bleach, this story would be the first thing to go. Next would be certain relationships I've had. Then the Bush presidency. Etc.

I love sci-fi, and I love sex. I love sci-fi sex. But this just seemed over-the-top and ridiculous. Surely, they would have taken a break at some point? Maybe tried other forms of communication? A months-long orgy seems pretty unlikely for any being to sustain (or want to) no matter how many feeding tubes there are.

People have pointed out that the story generated a lot of good discussion and raised some good questions. I agree that it did, but doing so does not necessarily make it a good story. You can draft a bill that says gay people can't marry, and that will generate good discussion and questions, but it doesn't mean that bill has any inherent worth. Most of the discussion seemed to focus on whether or not the story was gratuitously titillating. Given the intelligence and general good taste of Escape Pod listeners, this probably means it was close enough to being gratuitously titillating that the author should have found another way to approach the issues s/he wanted to get at. I appreciated the passion of the writing, but it didn't ring true to what would actually happen in such a situation. The idea of endless sex may work in a dream or a simulation of some kind, but it just isn't practical in real life. It doesn't seem likely that both beings would remain in the same mental space for months where that's all they wanted. They would surely go through phases of trying other things to pass the time. Or one of them would decide enough is enough and find a way to stop it.

A more interesting story would have been one that explored the psychology of how the two stranded characters decided to try sex in the first place. It could even have been a subtle interplay of emotions and actions that really got into the issues of interspecies communication rather than pretending to. Pretty much any other approach I can think of would have been better than this rape fantasy.

If nothing else, the story did inspire me to find out more about how the Hugo/Nebula nomination process works.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Scattercat on October 09, 2010, 06:27:33 PM
The idea of endless sex may work in a dream or a simulation of some kind, but it just isn't practical in real life. It doesn't seem likely that both beings would remain in the same mental space for months where that's all they wanted. They would surely go through phases of trying other things to pass the time. Or one of them would decide enough is enough and find a way to stop it.

All of that was in the story already, though.  I don't think you can criticize the story for not including things that actually are in there.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Artemis on October 17, 2010, 06:46:24 PM
As a writer of erotica, I have no problem reading about sex at all. I have good friends who write in that genre as well, everything from vanilla to unbelievably daring and sticky. However, none of us enjoy reading or writing rape scenes. Sex is best described when everyone is enjoying it. True, there are occasions when sex isn't fun for one or both parties, but in a fictional story, such experiences ought to have a purpose. The first Thomas Covenant novel springs to mind as a good example.

I love stories which examine how the protagonist's psychology is altered or survives threatening or disasterous situations, so I appreciated the points that the author was trying to make here. I just felt the whole thing didn't need to be as drawn out as it was. I agree with other posts - that the story would have sat better either with more backstory in it to build up the character, or as a shorter story overall.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Dem on October 17, 2010, 09:22:50 PM
As a writer of erotica
I think the difference here is that this is not erotica, it is survival, and it is never entirely clear whose. The woman is obviously just as alien to the alien as it is to her and neither knows how to relate to the other except in this endless, fruitless and dead sexual encouter. Personally, I was not assuming that the alien was somehow in control, I felt it might be just as trapped as the human and that they had malignant or, at best, ignorant, captors in common. Who knows though? Not Kij Johnson evidently, according to her interview on Clarkesworld!
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Zuishness on October 24, 2010, 01:50:09 AM
The part that struck me was the point where she was remembering having a picnic with her man, and she asked him not to read her Shakespeare. It seemed that she needed those words of love to be his own, and was haunted by the fact that he hadn't been able to do this.

 This really jolted me. Was she revealing that she believed he was unable to be properly intimate; that he was faking.

The situation with the alien, and her memories of her past, made me think of accounts I have read by individuals who have been in relationships with people on the autistic spectrum.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on January 31, 2014, 11:05:29 PM
People who liked this story may be interested to know there's a new version (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/johnson_04_13_reprint/) of the story. It's ... rather different from the original.

(Heck, People who didn't like the story may be even more interested than those who did.)


(People who like bacon will likely be very interested in it.)
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Varda on February 01, 2014, 02:00:43 AM
People who liked this story may be interested to know there's a new version (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/johnson_04_13_reprint/) of the story. It's ... rather different from the original.

(Heck, People who didn't like the story may be even more interested than those who did.)


(People who like bacon will likely be very interested in it.)

Hole. Eee. CRAP!

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I am so, so happy right now. Thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Unblinking on February 03, 2014, 03:01:44 PM
Haha, yes, I thought I'd posted a link to that after it went live last year.

I sent Kij some mail after I heard it, for fun  :)
Quote
Kij,
Ever since "Spar" was published in Clarkesworld, I have thought to myself on at least a sesquiweekly basis: 
"You know, that story about sexytimes on the escape pod with the alien was pretty awesome.  And was unlike anything else I've ever read before, primarily because of all the sex.  But you know what would make it better?  Toning down the sex a bit.  I mean, there is rather a lot of sex.  It's actually a little excessive.  Blatant, even.  Nonstop, you might say, not exactly subtle. As Yoon Ha Lee would say, the unstrung zither is the pinnacle of artistic achievement because subtlety is the core of art, and an unstrung zither takes that to the natural conclusion.  So how better to improve upon a story that focuses obsessively with sex, than to remove the sex from it entirely?" 

These idle thoughts only seemed to cross my mind while I was otherwise indisposed, such as sitting in meetings, or eating my breakfast bacon.  Or my lunch bacon.  Or my afternoon snack bacon.  So I was surprised and delighted to hear the story on the podcast without me having yet remembered to make the suggestion.  Genius!  The unsexed sex story!  I didn't know that you could read my mind.  I should really be more careful what I think about in the future.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: eytanz on February 09, 2014, 10:18:37 PM
People who liked this story may be interested to know there's a new version (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/johnson_04_13_reprint/) of the story. It's ... rather different from the original.

(Heck, People who didn't like the story may be even more interested than those who did.)


(People who like bacon will likely be very interested in it.)

So, I'm having a real impulse now to start a flame war about how I, being Jewish, find the explicit discussion of bacon-eating in stories offensive. And then I remember that A - I'm a moderator here so I should be on my best behaviour, B - I don't keep kosher and I actually rather enjoy bacon myself and C - in general, life is a lot better if whenever I have an impulse, I don't follow it.

Anyway, that was incredibly amusing.
Title: Re: EP248: Spar
Post by: Ichneumon on November 30, 2017, 06:15:06 PM
I listened to this one because the thread had the most comments and views on Escape pod. I was anticipating something very shocking, but it wasn't like I was expecting. I think what the story did well was take an extremely intimate act and make it completely impersonal.

The main character's thought process made sense to me. After possibly years trapped in that pod her mind had covered pretty much every interpretation of the scenario. She had none of the normal ways to cope with the grief from what had happened to her, and no new sensory input to make fresh memories. I'm not saying everything she did or thought was logical, even people in "normal" situations don't deal with grief logically, but I think the author did a very good job crafting a believable person in an unbelievable situation.