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Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Swamp on September 23, 2010, 04:31:58 PM

Title: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Swamp on September 23, 2010, 04:31:58 PM
EP259: The Lady or the Tiger (http://escapepod.org/2010/09/23/ep259-the-lady-or-the-tiger/)

By J M McDermott (http://jmmcdermott.blogspot.com/)
Read by Grant Baciocco (http://www.mrgrant.com/) of Throwing Toasters and The Radio Adventures of Dr. Floyd

First appeared in Apex Magazine (http://apexbookcompany.com/apex-online/)

The only thing I could think of to take my mind off of Sheila, and the crash, was asking my brother about Guj Sarwar, the tiger on the back of the great and mighty lizard, Samarkand. When I was a boy, I didn’t understand why it was the only other thing I could think about, like something was on the tip of my tongue.

And, Jiri knew everything there was to know about the wastes of the far west, the lizards, and the tigers. He was fifteen years old. Next year, he’d be driving cattle up the highway to Io Town in a flyer all by himself. I was only ten. I didn’t even have my own computer terminal yet. I had to share his when he wasn’t using it. Everything I knew about the wastes had been from the computer, and from Jiri.

“On the wastes, Simsa,” said my brother, “you can’t walk on the ground. The sand is all quicksand. It sucks you up and swallows you. You have to ride on the back of giant lizards as big as walking mountains. There’re only twenty-five lizards. They have names.”


Rated PG-13  For blood and revolution and missing fingers.


Show Notes:



(http://escapepod.org/wp-images/podcast-mini4.gif)
Listen to this week’s Escape Pod! (http://c1.libsyn.com/media/18601/EP259__The_Lady_or_the_Tiger.mp3?nvb=20100923161934&nva=20100924162934&sid=752936e229dcda4bb93d6fc9fec1dc0b&l_sid=18601&l_eid=&l_mid=2070229&t=0d44826c0337d68da55bc)
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: AJHunter on September 23, 2010, 05:23:11 PM
Loved this story. The mythology of it is what got me. I love the image of the giant lizards with people living on their backs. But I must admit that I was biased by hearing Norm's voice on the intro...
A great story. I think eventually EP will raise the story-telling bar too high, then overshoot it, just because they can.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Void Munashii on September 24, 2010, 12:28:13 AM
  I really liked the world that this story showed us. It's always fun when a story is set in a world that clearly has a lot more going on in it than just what's being focused on in the story itself.

  I must admit feeling a little disappointed that we do not find out what the narrator's decision was, but I understand why we don't. There is no right or wrong choice for him to make, and telling us what his choice was would only serve to disappoint the half of the audience who felt, and correctly so, that it was the wrong choice.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Grayven on September 24, 2010, 02:58:15 AM
This was a fun piece. Interesting world-building, and like any great short fiction it left me wanting more.

I think the author cut off exposition at exactly the right point.

I think the hero chose "the lady". Nothing too scientific, when confused, go with the lady.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: stePH on September 24, 2010, 02:58:53 AM
I dunno, seems to me as easy a choice as the original (which I've never read, but Norm spelled it out sufficiently in the intro). The woman he loves, or the brother who's shit-headed sabotage killed her and stranded them. Plus, the brother was neglecting to preserve his own life in order to finish retrieving her, so that effectively gives his blessing, right?

I liked this story okay -- until the end, which destroyed it for me.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Grayven on September 24, 2010, 03:05:39 AM
Is the original "lady or the tiger" in public domain yet? If it is, lets put it up. I volunteer to read it.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Swamp on September 24, 2010, 03:33:44 AM
I dunno, seems to me as easy a choice as the original (which I've never read, but Norm spelled it out sufficiently in the intro).

In the original, there was no moral choice, just two doors, although we question the motives of the lover of the protagonist.

But why explain it, here is the text of the original story (http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stories/UBooks/LadyTige.shtml), as Grayven requested.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Loof on September 24, 2010, 10:33:11 AM
I really enjoyed listening to this. Not only did I like the changes to the main conundrum of the story, but the world it was set in was brilliant-living on giant lizards, how much more awesome could you get?
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: stePH on September 24, 2010, 08:03:19 PM
I LOVED the line "he's so dumb he wouldn't know which end of a battery to shove up his own ass." I've appropriated it for future use. Actually, I've already used it twice for Glenn Beck.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: deflective on September 24, 2010, 08:24:21 PM
In the original, there was no moral choice, just two doors, although we question the motives of the lover of the protagonist.

yeah, the original story by Stockton has little in common with the description in the intro.  an alternative to reading the original is to listen to it (http://www.podcastdirectory.com/podshows/6556949).
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Swamp on September 24, 2010, 08:38:36 PM
In the original, there was no moral choice, just two doors, although we question the motives of the lover of the protagonist.

yeah, the original story by Stockton has little in common with the description in the intro.  an alternative to reading the original is to listen to it (http://www.podcastdirectory.com/podshows/6556949).

Yes, B.J. did a great job, as always, and he even had a little fun with the ending.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Darwinist on September 25, 2010, 03:25:56 AM
I don't know, this story just didn't do much for me.  I couldn't follow what was going on, maybe I'm just too stupid or maybe it was because I was driving through a monsoon during rush hour and couldn't concentrate. 
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Psinaptic on September 25, 2010, 01:28:33 PM
I'm not sure if i liked this one or not.  The world building was enjoyable (who wouldn't want to live on the back of a giant lizard, or see reports of anthropomorphic tigers climbing a space elevator) and I liked the characters, but the ending left me unsatisfied
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: KenK on September 25, 2010, 09:27:09 PM
I liked this one. Moral conundrums make you think.  ;)
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: noriker on September 26, 2010, 12:36:31 PM
I really enjoyed the world building in this one.  I did wonder at the end if the refrigerator could only store one head apparently cut off at the neck why two craniums wouldn't fit in the same space.  (But then in the original The Lady or the Tiger if the decision maker couldn't have befriended the tiger and convinced him to eat the person who put him into the situation.)

Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: DantesFire on September 26, 2010, 06:48:58 PM
I'm not sure the writer understood what the original "The Lady or the Tiger", was about. The man was not choosing between the lady or the tiger, the man believed the princess would choose best for him and picked the door she indicated. The, as stated a few times in the original story, semi-barbaric princess was the one who had to make a choice between the lady or the tiger. It was a choice of either getting the man killed by the tiger so he would be in the afterlife waiting for her or if she would live the rest of her life knowing the man she loved would forever be with the woman she hated most. Being semi-barbaric, this would be pure agony.

Now the thing I don't understand about McDermott's story is why he made the kid who has to decide, ten years old. Sure he knows what evils his brother has done. And sure he likes the girl. But unless I missed something, I would think most ten year old boys, especially seeing how chummy these two were, would automatically save their brother over a cute girl. Why didn't the author make the kid older, at least a teen, and maybe already dating the girl. Then I could see more of a quandary.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: ElectricPaladin on September 26, 2010, 06:54:37 PM
Now the thing I don't understand about McDermott's story is why he made the kid who has to decide, ten years old. Sure he knows what evils his brother has done. And sure he likes the girl. But unless I missed something, I would think most ten year old boys, especially seeing how chummy these two were, would automatically save their brother over a cute girl. Why didn't the author make the kid older, at least a teen, and maybe already dating the girl. Then I could see more of a quandary.

Because he didn't love her like a date. He loved her like a mom. That made the possibility of losing her even more painful.

. . .

I liked this story for its fascinating and quirky world-building. It was an interesting study in idealism and choice. Somehow, though, the narration didn't quite grab me and I never really fell into the story. Maybe the reading wasn't my style, maybe there was something in the pacing that didn't click for me, but for all that there was lots to love in this story... it just didn't work out.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Unblinking on September 27, 2010, 01:37:33 PM
I really loved the world building in this one.  A quicksand desert where people live on the backs of lizards--I want to see more in this world!  But the story that filled in the awesome setting...  not so much.

1.  As others have pointed out, the writer seemed to not understand the dilemma of the original story (at least, judging by the description in the intro, maybe that was just a joke).

2.  It went to such absurd lengths to create the lady or tiger situation from this bizarre world, that it seemed sort of like a feghoot, except:
-The punchline was given away in the title
-It wasn't funny, and didn't seem to be intended to be funny
-At the time that the punchline occurs, it doesn't even make sense, requiring several more minutes of exposition to make it clear.  "So I had to choose The Lady or the Tiger.  By the way, the tiger is my brother.  He's the tiger because..."  I totally didn't get that his brother was a tiger in any way so it just felt like all that telling is in the wrong order.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Loz on September 27, 2010, 06:41:17 PM
The whole 'my brother is the tiger' thing did rub me wrong too, it seemed like a cymbal drop in an otherwise graceful symphony. It should perhaps have been brought in a lot earlier or perhaps left out completely, so the dullwits like me could ask "Whut does the title mean then?". But I did like the story, which set up an interesting and believable world with admirable brevity. But we couldn't be told who he saved, that would render the story pointless, like if Inception didn't end the way it did (no spoilers, in case anyone still hasn't seen it!)
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Scattercat on September 27, 2010, 06:56:55 PM
I am glad that people have already pointed out the cringe-worthy misreading of the original "Lady or the Tiger," which caused me to shout and gesture wildly at my computer and drown out Norm with an impromptu lecture on the thematic content and history of the original story and then have to rewind to listen to it properly.

I'd also say that it doesn't make much sense for the brother to not take steps to protect himself from his own idiotic sabotage.  If he knew that it was coming, he could have just punched the "dump cargo" button immediately upon the explosion and claimed "fast reflexes" if anyone asked.  Giant lizard houses, though, are rad.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: goatkeeper on September 27, 2010, 07:23:31 PM
I am glad that people have already pointed out the cringe-worthy misreading of the original "Lady or the Tiger," which caused me to shout and gesture wildly at my computer and drown out Norm with an impromptu lecture on the thematic content and history of the original story and then have to rewind to listen to it properly.

I'd also say that it doesn't make much sense for the brother to not take steps to protect himself from his own idiotic sabotage.  If he knew that it was coming, he could have just punched the "dump cargo" button immediately upon the explosion and claimed "fast reflexes" if anyone asked.  Giant lizard houses, though, are rad.

Hmm, I've never read it myself, but it seems like the author's note can at least be loosely extrapolated to be about the same thing: death by tiger or life in an arranged marriage.  It may be oversimplified, but maybe not a misreading.  Not qualified to comment till I give the original a read I guess!
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Scattercat on September 27, 2010, 07:55:10 PM
I am glad that people have already pointed out the cringe-worthy misreading of the original "Lady or the Tiger," which caused me to shout and gesture wildly at my computer and drown out Norm with an impromptu lecture on the thematic content and history of the original story and then have to rewind to listen to it properly.

I'd also say that it doesn't make much sense for the brother to not take steps to protect himself from his own idiotic sabotage.  If he knew that it was coming, he could have just punched the "dump cargo" button immediately upon the explosion and claimed "fast reflexes" if anyone asked.  Giant lizard houses, though, are rad.

Hmm, I've never read it myself, but it seems like the author's note can at least be loosely extrapolated to be about the same thing: death by tiger or life in an arranged marriage.  It may be oversimplified, but maybe not a misreading.  Not qualified to comment till I give the original a read I guess!

The point of the original story, as DantesFire said, was that the protagonist didn't KNOW what choice his lover had made for him.  He wasn't choosing death or an arranged marriage; he was trusting HER to have chosen for him, with her foreknowledge of which door held which fate.  The question was about whether his lover would choose to see him live with the love of a beautiful and wealthy wife or if she would rather see him mauled by a tiger than suffer being abandoned, and whether he knew her well enough to predict which one she would guide him toward.

This story's moral choice, while interesting in its own merits, has nothing to do with the themes of the original story.  The author's note said the choice in the original was "obvious," but it CAN'T have been obvious because the protagonist in the original story did not have complete information.  The original story was about love and trust; this story is about loyalty.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Hambitron on September 28, 2010, 05:06:37 AM
I really appreciated the young age of the main character and that his love for "the lady" was a pure simple love held by the young and not a convoluted overtly sexual love that seems to come more easily with age.  I also liked how his brother quoted against using violence to achieve ones goals yet ended up causing great violence against himself and others.  Although he never planned to hurt anyone, chaos is inevitable and things rarely happen as planned.  My absolute favorite part was the imagery of men trading parts of their body to become machines of war, and then the tragic fate of the lone tiger survivor.  He wont kill himself even though all that he cares for and believes in has been lost.  I find that a beautifully romantic ideal.  In the end I felt that young lead may have saved his brother.  The root cause of his brothers death was his grim determination to save the innocent life he had ended.  If the young protagonist saved "the tiger" I feel that his brother would remember the death of "the lady" that he caused and the internal struggle and grief he would battle at his actions alone warrant another story.  fantastic spin on the ancient conundrum.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: goatkeeper on September 28, 2010, 08:48:20 AM
I am glad that people have already pointed out the cringe-worthy misreading of the original "Lady or the Tiger," which caused me to shout and gesture wildly at my computer and drown out Norm with an impromptu lecture on the thematic content and history of the original story and then have to rewind to listen to it properly.

I'd also say that it doesn't make much sense for the brother to not take steps to protect himself from his own idiotic sabotage.  If he knew that it was coming, he could have just punched the "dump cargo" button immediately upon the explosion and claimed "fast reflexes" if anyone asked.  Giant lizard houses, though, are rad.

Hmm, I've never read it myself, but it seems like the author's note can at least be loosely extrapolated to be about the same thing: death by tiger or life in an arranged marriage.  It may be oversimplified, but maybe not a misreading.  Not qualified to comment till I give the original a read I guess!

The point of the original story, as DantesFire said, was that the protagonist didn't KNOW what choice his lover had made for him.  He wasn't choosing death or an arranged marriage; he was trusting HER to have chosen for him, with her foreknowledge of which door held which fate.  The question was about whether his lover would choose to see him live with the love of a beautiful and wealthy wife or if she would rather see him mauled by a tiger than suffer being abandoned, and whether he knew her well enough to predict which one she would guide him toward.

This story's moral choice, while interesting in its own merits, has nothing to do with the themes of the original story.  The author's note said the choice in the original was "obvious," but it CAN'T have been obvious because the protagonist in the original story did not have complete information.  The original story was about love and trust; this story is about loyalty.

I see what you mean, I'm just saying that the author chooses to give that dilemma to the MC in this story.  He doesn't indicate in his note who made the choice in the original Stockton story, just that there was a choice presented and that one option seemed quite brutal and extreme while the other, although certainly painful, didn't quite register on the tiger-eating-someone-alive scale.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Scattercat on September 28, 2010, 09:04:12 AM
Either way, he's gone from her life forever.  To her, what difference would it make if he was eaten by a tiger or swallowed by a life she couldn't touch?  Does she love him enough to give him happiness that she can envy but never taste, or would she rather deny her rival the pleasure of beating her and taking her man away, even if it means no one can have him?

How many people in history have faced that choice and said, "Tiger"?
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: CryptoMe on September 28, 2010, 05:51:03 PM
  I must admit feeling a little disappointed that we do not find out what the narrator's decision was, but I understand why we don't. There is no right or wrong choice for him to make, and telling us what his choice was would only serve to disappoint the half of the audience who felt, and correctly so, that it was the wrong choice.
I, too, was very disappointed that we weren't told the narrator's decision. This detail is an important window into the mind and soul of the narrator, which wasn't really given to us in the rest of the story (if it had been, there'd be no question about the narrator's choice).  So, I don't think it's okay to leave it out. Doing so leaves the story unfinished, in my opinion.

Regarding the original "Lady or the Tiger"...
Does she love him enough to give him happiness that she can envy but never taste, or would she rather deny her rival the pleasure of beating her and taking her man away, even if it means no one can have him?
I think that story is a commentary on the nature of love (and trust). When you love someone, their happiness is more important to you than your own. There is no "enough" about it; either you love them and want the best for them (even if it's with someone else), or you don't. If you would rather see them die than be happy without you, then you don't love them at all, you love yourself. Unfortunately, too many people don't recognize this.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: DKT on September 28, 2010, 08:32:31 PM
I don't want the lady's head or the tiger's head. SOMEBODY BRING ME THE HEAD OF NORM SHERMAN!!!! Preferrably, in a refrigerator so we can clone an army of him to populate the New Jurassic Age.

So happy he's back sharing EP hosting duties, especially when the stories deal with Giant Lizards and things.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: tpi on September 29, 2010, 09:56:17 AM
I really loved the world building in this one.  A quicksand desert where people live on the backs of lizards--I want to see more in this world!  But the story that filled in the awesome setting...  not so much.


Personally, I hated the world building. No real logic, more suitable for fantasy than science fiction.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Unblinking on September 29, 2010, 01:44:08 PM
Personally, I hated the world building. No real logic, more suitable for fantasy than science fiction.

I pretty much considered it a fantasy story, so I wouldn't really argue with that.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on September 29, 2010, 03:53:38 PM
I am glad that people have already pointed out the cringe-worthy misreading of the original "Lady or the Tiger," which caused me to shout and gesture wildly at my computer and drown out Norm with an impromptu lecture on the thematic content and history of the original story and then have to rewind to listen to it properly.

  :D

I wish I'd been there, or that you'd had a recorder going.  :)

I didn't go quite that far, but I was fairly exasperated.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Lionman on September 29, 2010, 08:22:45 PM
The ending was well-crafted.  My question is: When you listened to the end, what did you answer/guess the answer to the question was?
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Unblinking on September 30, 2010, 01:54:04 PM
The ending was well-crafted.  My question is: When you listened to the end, what did you answer/guess the answer to the question was?

I didn't really decide one way or the other.  Since the ending was clearly crafted specifically to be ambiguous, it didn't really provoke me to consider.  (that's one of those things where, if I can see the author intent too clearly, it becomes less interesting)
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Lionman on September 30, 2010, 05:32:07 PM
I didn't really decide one way or the other.  Since the ending was clearly crafted specifically to be ambiguous, it didn't really provoke me to consider.  (that's one of those things where, if I can see the author intent too clearly, it becomes less interesting)

My thought was that as I was listening, my mind jumped in and inserted my decision at that moment, which is what prompted my question.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: montsamu on September 30, 2010, 08:18:31 PM
I really enjoyed this one, particularly the giant lizards on quicksand, etc. I'm not sure of the science value of "oh noes, some 0.0000001% of our carbon might be traded" but it provided some interest politically. The "and now I'll go off and leave my wounded brother to laser-lathe the head off my beloved" had a bit too predictable an outcome (an accident? no way!) but all in all, I give this one two thumbs up. Every time I think "Ah, that's it, I really, really have picked Pod Castle over EscapePod" a story like this one reaches out and says, "Not so fast." But, seeing as it's mainly the awesome community of talking tigers living on giant, continental lizards which gives me the "love" factor for this story: I do think I'm turning my interests back towards fantasy pretty strongly of late.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: jjtraw on September 30, 2010, 08:51:46 PM
Quote
SOMEBODY BRING ME THE HEAD OF NORM SHERMAN!!!! Preferrably, in a refrigerator so we can clone an army of him to populate the New Jurassic Age.

I love it when Norm Sherman lends voice to a story, either narrating or hosting! But I'm not sure the world could handle an *army* of him. Too much awesome in one place.

I was annoyed by the author's interpretation of the original story, but let it slide, because the story crafted had wonderful world-building. Colossal lizards in a sea of sand, YES! Modern humans living as parasites on the back of a huge creature - that's a fun concept.

I didn't mind the ambiguous ending - it was right for the story. But myself, I think the narrator chose the lady. Because he says he agonized for the rest of his life about whether he'd made the "right" choice. Cutting off his brother's life would cut off all the child's future possibility - additional acts of terrorism, or acts of greatness. The lady was a woman grown, and didn't seem given to committing world-changing acts, beyond the simple act of loving a child. If he had chosen his brother, time would tell if his choice was good for society or bad, and he'd be less given to wondering later. Choosing the lady was neutral.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: heyes on October 01, 2010, 12:09:01 PM
I listened to this story while waiting on the side of the road for a family member to get out of work.  So besides the fact that I was dying to keep my mind of the clock, I really liked this story.  The setting really got my mind working, and it had some of the mythic story telling feel along with the swash buckling adventure.  I mean it was implied anyway.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Nixelplix on October 01, 2010, 01:33:05 PM
This was a good one-- liked the world building, but sometimes I have a hard time feeling sorry for individuals when humans have colonized the galaxy.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: MCWagner on October 03, 2010, 03:49:14 PM
I'll skip the by now well-tread ground regarding misinterpretation of the original.  (I did a bit of flailing myself.)  I did, however, want to comment on something that's always puzzled me about the original story; the way every reading assumes that the victim/recipient just blithely goes along with whatever the princess suggests.  Should the story be not just about what sort of fate the princess feels she should grant her beloved and the inner conflict of jealousy, but also how well the man knows the princess's personality?  Does he know her to be a ravingly jealous individual or has he always thought she was forthright and generous?  And does she know how he sees her?  The convolutions of second-guessing that follow are, to me, much more fascinating than the surface-level choice.
I, too, was very disappointed that we weren't told the narrator's decision. This detail is an important window into the mind and soul of the narrator, which wasn't really given to us in the rest of the story (if it had been, there'd be no question about the narrator's choice).  So, I don't think it's okay to leave it out. Doing so leaves the story unfinished, in my opinion.
I'd always interpreted that as the point of the original story... this is a seminal tale for pointing out that "story" is created at the intersection of the text and the reader; and is one of the few historical tales which makes it explicit by saying "you, the reader, must decide what happened."  If anything, the new tale got this correct above all other points.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: icegirl on October 03, 2010, 09:28:00 PM
Meh!
I always thought the original story was written by an english teacher looking for an essay topic to torture kids with... More interesting as an idea to debate than as a story. I didn't think this rewrite really improved on that.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Scattercat on October 03, 2010, 09:33:29 PM
the way every reading assumes that the victim/recipient just blithely goes along with whatever the princess suggests.  Should the story be not just about what sort of fate the princess feels she should grant her beloved and the inner conflict of jealousy, but also how well the man knows the princess's personality?

I've never heard that assumption, even when I first encountered the story back in fifth grade.  The question has always been whether he can trust what she says, since she doesn't indicate which door she's guiding him towards.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: MCWagner on October 04, 2010, 02:41:21 AM
the way every reading assumes that the victim/recipient just blithely goes along with whatever the princess suggests.  Should the story be not just about what sort of fate the princess feels she should grant her beloved and the inner conflict of jealousy, but also how well the man knows the princess's personality?

I've never heard that assumption, even when I first encountered the story back in fifth grade.  The question has always been whether he can trust what she says, since she doesn't indicate which door she's guiding him towards.
Hmm...  I may have had an unimaginative teacher...
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: CryptoMe on October 04, 2010, 05:38:00 PM
Meh!
I always thought the original story was written by an english teacher looking for an essay topic to torture kids with... More interesting as an idea to debate than as a story. I didn't think this rewrite really improved on that.

I'm with icegirl on this. Just because a piece of writing gets me thinking and debating, doesn't make it a story. Thinking and debating is great! But lots of things can get me doing that. When I'm listening to (or reading) a story, I don't want to have to make up half of it myself.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Talia on October 04, 2010, 06:01:13 PM
Meh!
I always thought the original story was written by an english teacher looking for an essay topic to torture kids with... More interesting as an idea to debate than as a story. I didn't think this rewrite really improved on that.

I'm with icegirl on this. Just because a piece of writing gets me thinking and debating, doesn't make it a story. Thinking and debating is great! But lots of things can get me doing that. When I'm listening to (or reading) a story, I don't want to have to make up half of it myself.

I'm assuming you meant "good" story. I'm pretty sure this was a story. :p
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: pvillegeek on October 05, 2010, 10:59:11 PM
I liked the world building.  But i was a little confused what role "the tiger" played in the story.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: yicheng on October 06, 2010, 08:43:13 PM
I didn't like this story.  I couldn't really relate to either character in the story.  While it had several interesting elements, people living on giant lizzards, global terrorism battling against biomass leaving a planet via space elevator, etc...  it really felt like the plot was contrived to artifice the supposed "lady and the tiger" situation that wasn't even close to the real story (as others have said).  I still don't get how the brother was a "tiger", instead of just a terrorist, since presumably he hasn't been modified like the Tigers of the story. 

I then started questioning the entire economic validity of exporting tons of live cattle off-world as a means of food.  Given the likelihood of advanced technology enabling hydroponics, genetic manipulation of domesticated animals & plants to grow in low-G, or running rotating space farms would make a more cost-effective solution than shipping beef to and fro entire worlds (and presumably solar systems).  Would you then have to recapture the waste material and transport it back down to the surface?  At best, it would a very expensive delicacy in space, meaning there probably wouldn't that much going off-world.  The only alternate explanation would be if the cattle were meant to be used as breeding stock to start ranches on other worlds.  I see a more likely market for raw materials (wood, stone), petroleum, and manufactured items (since factories would presumably be harder to build in space).

How exactly would giant lizzards even work anyway?  What would they eat? 
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Talia on October 06, 2010, 08:48:43 PM
How exactly would giant lizzards even work anyway?  What would they eat? 

Maybe they're plant-lizards and get their food via photosynthesis?
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: yicheng on October 06, 2010, 09:54:31 PM
How exactly would giant lizzards even work anyway?  What would they eat? 

Maybe they're plant-lizards and get their food via photosynthesis?

*-lizards!!!!

Where * is

a) mushrooms
b) geo-thermal
c) uni-cellular bacterial
d) all of the above
e) none of the above

Seriously though...   there's a reason why photosynthetic plants don't usually walk around the earth, and it's not because they don't want to.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Talia on October 07, 2010, 12:21:23 AM
How exactly would giant lizzards even work anyway?  What would they eat? 

Maybe they're plant-lizards and get their food via photosynthesis?

*-lizards!!!!

Where * is

a) mushrooms
b) geo-thermal
c) uni-cellular bacterial
d) all of the above
e) none of the above

Seriously though...   there's a reason why photosynthetic plants don't usually walk around the earth, and it's not because they don't want to.

But wouldnt it be awesome if they did??

C'mon, just revel in giant lizard houses. Or whatever the hell they were. :P
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: kibitzer on October 07, 2010, 01:47:25 AM
...there's a reason why photosynthetic plants don't usually walk around the earth, and it's not because they don't want to.

Can't let that one go without comment!! Plants want to walk around? I thought that was only triffids.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: jrderego on October 07, 2010, 01:51:58 AM
...there's a reason why photosynthetic plants don't usually walk around the earth, and it's not because they don't want to.

Can't let that one go without comment!! Plants want to walk around? I thought that was only triffids.

Against a blind man, I'd put my money on a triffid.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: kibitzer on October 07, 2010, 01:52:26 AM
The giant lizards are indeed a very nice touch. However, I found this one pretty average. The thing that threw me off the most is, why were they drinking milk? Why did they even have milk in the first place? (yeah yeah supply ship I know but still...)

I generally don't get moral dilemma stories -- what's the point? It's purely an intellectual exercise and you've no way of knowing how you'd really react in a given situation. I told one of my friends once I'd never kill someone (war, attack, etc). He posed the question: so if you had a gun and someone started killing your friends/relatives/whatever in front of you, you wouldn't shoot? Of course I said no, but how would I really know? You really, really cannot know unless you're in that situation.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Unblinking on October 07, 2010, 01:43:28 PM
I still don't get how the brother was a "tiger", instead of just a terrorist, since presumably he hasn't been modified like the Tigers of the story. 

I think the idea was that the image of the tiger was forever entangled with terrorism.  It still seemed like a bit of a stretch within the story to reach the titular dilemma.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: kiba on October 10, 2010, 06:09:14 PM
I liked this story.  I am always impressed when an author can create so rich a history in such short a time.  I really felt like I had a good understanding of the world the author described.  I also don't think it was a simple choice for the protagonist. I think it was about more than just a choice between his brother and the lady.  Maybe he chose both the lady and the tiger.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: kiba on October 10, 2010, 06:10:48 PM
I liked this story.  I am always impressed when an author can create so rich a history in such short a time.  I really felt like I had a good understanding of the world the author described.  I also don't think it was a simple choice for the protagonist. I think it was about more than just a choice between his brother and the lady.  Maybe he chose both the lady and the tiger.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: slic on October 10, 2010, 08:18:30 PM
...there's a reason why photosynthetic plants don't usually walk around the earth, and it's not because they don't want to.

Can't let that one go without comment!! Plants want to walk around? I thought that was only triffids.
Maybe not all plants, but there have got to be some flowers in bed wanting to get up and see the real world, no? At least to get away from Mom's nagging for a little while.

I really didn't like this one.  I listened to it while walking the dog, and I really should get bigger headphones so that passers-by realize I'm not talking to/about them.  First I was pretty annoyed with the misinterpretation of the orginal story (nuff said - see MCWagner's comments) - for this, I venhemently expressed "You couldn't be more wrong!" And then was told to mind my own business by the nice couple in front of me.  When I popped out the earbud, all was understood (if not forgiven) :)
During the story the other comment that got me looked at questioningly - "Really, an accident? C'mon!"

Either way - can't recommend this one
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Hysteria on October 13, 2010, 02:33:30 AM
It's weird when a story can really make me dislike an author, but I think J.M. McDermott completely missed the point on the original story "The Lady or the Tiger." His story suffers as a result.

I'm not the first one to suggest this, but it isn't about the man's choice. It never was. It was about the semi-barbaric princess' choice. (I'll assume most people here have read the story, BTW.) It's one of the best studies in human motivation, at lest in my opinion. The person you love is going to be lost to you forever. How would you prefer to lose him? Have him die a horrible death or be forever out of your reach, married to your bitter rival? Granted, the original short story is a lot more eloquent than that, but it's essentially what "The Lady and the Tiger" boils down to. There is no answer in the story, because the answer isn't the point. The point is to have the reader ask him or herself "What would I do if I were in that situation?" Go on, read the story and try not to answer the question yourself. It's like trying to eat just one of those little pretzels.

McDermott's story, on the other hand, lacks any of the studies into humanity that made the original so compelling. There is some good world building, I will admit that, and if Apex and Escape Pod bought the story for the world-building then I think they made a good choice. Giant lizards, genetically mutated commandos, some good philosophical points about what planets lose in trade with other planets all really drew me in. But to compare the little brother's dilemma with the princess's in the original is almost blasphemy.

It's an agonizing decision to have to choose which person will live and which person will die. But it is not really comparable with the choice faced in the original "Lady or the Tiger." McDermott's little brother, Simsa, can best be compared to the princess in the story, NOT the man who must open the door. The question here is "Who shall I save?" not "What shall my lover's fate be?" As such, Simsa's dilemma is very different. The princess in the original (and by extent the reader) has to decide how self-sacrificing she is. Does she love the man enough to be happy when he is happy? Or would she rather if she can't have him, than no one can? Simsa, though, has to essentially choose who he loves best. It's a meaningful decision in the story, but it doesn't resonate with me at all. Partially this is because I think unrequited love is a universal experience, whereas saving either your brother or the woman who has been like a mother to you is much more character specific.

Secondly, McDermott's "Lady and the Tiger" dilemma fails because McDermott doesn't make the decision Simsa faces relatable to the reader. Yes, choosing between your surrogate mother and your brother would be a tough choice. But I think McDermott falls into the trap a lot of creators do when they try to do a remake that tops the original. He goes over the top, says, "You thought the original had a dilemma? No, THIS is a dilemma!" That's great, and I would hate to have to choose between saving my mom and my brother, but guess what? That's a dramatic, character-defining decision.  These kinds of impossible choices are faced often in stories, and they define the character when he or she makes them. Whether to let your lost love go gracefully or not is something universal, something the reader can relate to, and the author hammers that point home in the original "Lady or the Tiger," forcing us to put ourselves in the princess's position, over and over again. McDermott doesn't do that. He assumes that just describing the dilemma will work, and it doesn't. That was the whole point of the original "Lady and the Tiger," in fact--the thought process that went into making the choice.

That brings me to my third point. Remember how I said that decisions like this are what define a character? In the original, the characters are defined with very broad strokes and make very good cyphers for the reader (ever wonder why none of the characters in the original have names?). Here, even though Simsa is meant to be a cypher, he's too well-defined to be a good one. We've got a pretty good idea of his character and really, the story seems set up to be a defining moment in his life, not a study of the thought process that goes into his choice. By having him say, "I made my decision, but I'm not going to tell you what it was," it's cheating the reader. By the time we get to the dilemma Simsa faces, we're invested in the character. We want to know what choice he makes and how it affects him, but we don't get it. Consequently, the ending of the story feels like a cop-out.

With all this criticism I have, I feel I owe it to J.M. McDermott to suggest how the dilemma could have been improved. The first would have been to not have Simsa make a choice at all. Just end the story with him sitting, looking at the two bodies, deliberating which one he should save before the sun comes up. Heck, he could be dictating this to a sci-fi blog of some sort, asking us as the readers what we would do. He could delve into the reasons why he should save Jiri over Sheila. We've seen Jiri's dark side, so what about Sheila's? Because objectively, it seems as though you'd save the innocent who died in the crash as opposed to the would-be terrorist who caused it.

Secondly, play up the relationships between the three of them. Really twist the emotional knife. Examine how the relationships between the two survivors would change with the absence of the third. What would Simsa's parents say, for example?

Thirdly, what if Sheila had to choose between saving Simsa or Jiri? That'd be a definite dilemma, somewhat more comparable to the original. She's going to lose one of her charges, so which one would it be?

There's more criticism I have, but it's mostly superficial to the story. There's the very plot-driven way in which Jiri dies, the sudden revelation that Jiri is a "Tiger," which feels like a very forced reference, and a lot of extraneous pieces of the story like Guj Sarwar and, for that matter, even the giant lizards. Nice touches, but not really part of the story.

I have to admit, this story has soured me on reading McDermott's other works, which is kind of a shame. However, I am very fond of the original "Lady or the Tiger," and this story just can't compare.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Unblinking on October 13, 2010, 01:40:32 PM
With all this criticism I have, I feel I owe it to J.M. McDermott to suggest how the dilemma could have been improved. The first would have been to not have Simsa make a choice at all. Just end the story with him sitting, looking at the two bodies, deliberating which one he should save before the sun comes up. Heck, he could be dictating this to a sci-fi blog of some sort, asking us as the readers what we would do. He could delve into the reasons why he should save Jiri over Sheila. We've seen Jiri's dark side, so what about Sheila's? Because objectively, it seems as though you'd save the innocent who died in the crash as opposed to the would-be terrorist who caused it.

You make a lot of good points, and I agree with most of them, but I don't think it would work as a blog entry at the point of decision--he has a time critical choice to make and he doesn't have time to blog about it (even if such a tech exists here), nor to wait for responses from blog readers.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Hysteria on October 13, 2010, 06:10:29 PM

You make a lot of good points, and I agree with most of them, but I don't think it would work as a blog entry at the point of decision--he has a time critical choice to make and he doesn't have time to blog about it (even if such a tech exists here), nor to wait for responses from blog readers.

I was thinking more like an audio log, something that would be a mash-up of Star Trek meets Cloverfield, to connect the reader more emotionally with the narrator and give the whole thing a sense of immediacy. But I can see your point. It would be a stretch, and it would give the author some additional problems to work with.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Unblinking on October 14, 2010, 03:16:01 PM
I was thinking more like an audio log, something that would be a mash-up of Star Trek meets Cloverfield, to connect the reader more emotionally with the narrator and give the whole thing a sense of immediacy. But I can see your point. It would be a stretch, and it would give the author some additional problems to work with.

To be fair, I had the same problem with Cloverfield.  The entire existence of the footage depended on one character being so immeasurably stupid that he's holding a camcorder to his face even while he is running from monsters and picking his way through unstable buildings.  It makes sense at the beginning with the party, and the first disasters, but later on it just goes beyond what even a stupid character ought to be doing.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: DKT on October 14, 2010, 05:36:25 PM
To be fair, I had the same problem with Cloverfield.  The entire existence of the footage depended on one character being so immeasurably stupid that he's holding a camcorder to his face even while he is running from monsters and picking his way through unstable buildings.  It makes sense at the beginning with the party, and the first disasters, but later on it just goes beyond what even a stupid character ought to be doing.


Wait...you're saying "stupid people" broke your willing suspension of disbelief?  ;)
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Unblinking on October 14, 2010, 05:44:32 PM
To be fair, I had the same problem with Cloverfield.  The entire existence of the footage depended on one character being so immeasurably stupid that he's holding a camcorder to his face even while he is running from monsters and picking his way through unstable buildings.  It makes sense at the beginning with the party, and the first disasters, but later on it just goes beyond what even a stupid character ought to be doing.


Wait...you're saying "stupid people" broke your willing suspension of disbelief?  ;)

Yup!  That and the fact that the plot hinged upon their cell phones calling through whenever they needed to--huge plausibility problems there.
Oh, and the fact that the camera jostling shown on the big screen made me want to barf.
I actually liked it for what it was, but those 3 big problems made it much less than what it could've been.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: DantesFire on October 23, 2010, 06:44:45 PM
Okay something else was bothering me about the story and I just figured it out. Simsa is telling the story not as it's happening or if it just happened but telling the story as a man talking about his youth. And I think he choose the Lady because this is a story on why he was justified in letting his brother die, even though he may have lied to himself. Before Simsa refers to his brother as a "Tiger", he shows how smart and caring his brother is and as other commentators have noted the brother doesn't seem to be the kind of idiot to be caught in an explosion of his own making.

But somewhere Simsa decided the girl is more important to him than his brother so he has to justify it. And I don't think it's pseudo-mommy love, I think it's his first big boy crush. Does he pine for her as a child for his mother, no he does as a lover. So he makes up the story that his brother is a "Tiger". What evidence does he have? That his brother was reading about it on his computer? That he was well informed about the Tiger rebellion as he was about most things? Does that mean if you read about serial killers you are one or want to be one? Well, not everyone. I think he even recons himself, because when he remembers talking to his brother, Simsa is more emotional, more childish, but when he refers to his brother as a "Tiger, he becomes smarter, more adult-like. Simsa even keeps repeating Sheila's name as a mantra to help justify his brother's death.

If this is what the writer was actually aiming at then it has more depth in it and I like it. It's not really a "The Lady, or the Tiger?" type story, but as many others and myself have pointed out before, if he meant what he said about the original story, then he missed the point and he couldn't write that type of story.

By the way, there was a sequel (or continuation as they called it back then) to “The Lady, or the Tiger?” , called  "Discourager of Hesitancy" http://www.imaginaryplanet.net/weblogs/idiotprogrammer/2006/02/discourager-of-hesitancy-by-frank-stockton/ It's cute, I wonder if he wrote it because people kept asking, "which was it?
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: gateaux on October 24, 2010, 09:30:17 PM
I liked this story... I would say it was ok, not great and not horrible either. The world building and fantasy elements were kind of loosely put together but I don't necessarily mind that. I really liked the ending; it was frustrating, but in a delicious sort of way.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: eytanz on October 24, 2010, 09:41:50 PM
Similarly to what I just said in the commentary for episode 261 (which I'm commenting on out of order), this seemed like a story that would have been better served without the connection to an earlier piece. In this case, the connection was tenuous enough that it didn't make the story predictable, but, as several have commented above, it also doesn't really make sense - it's either a gross misinterpretation of the original story, or else it really doesn't borrow much from it but its name. Which is a real shame, in that the author created a really exciting world and a pretty good story to place in this world, and if he had just focused on that and avoided referencing his inspiration directly I would have been far more enthused about it.
Title: Re: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger
Post by: Calculating... on October 28, 2010, 01:50:32 AM
this story just bored me. i got really excited about people living on the backs of giant lizard, but the story was predictable and almost put me to sleep.  plus it was so cliche to just not tell which he picked. its kinda like ordering an ice cream sunday and getting just a sugar cookie instead, still good, just plain and uninteresting.