Escape Artists

PodCastle => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Talia on December 07, 2010, 04:45:07 PM

Title: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Talia on December 07, 2010, 04:45:07 PM
PodCastle 134: Corinthians (http://podcastle.org/2010/12/07/podcastle-134-corinthians/)

by Sam Schreiber

Read by Tatiana Gomberg (http://www.giantsquidproductions.org/tatiana.html)

Originally published in Cavalier Literary Couture (http://www.cavalierliterarycouture.com/)

God chuckled at that, a basso rumbling that tickled the hairs on the back of your neck. He said He remembered buying the Sergeant Pepper LP like it was yesterday, which made a sense when you stopped to think about it. Then He told you how He met Paul McCartney at a bar in Manchester in the seventies. How they had both agreed over rounds that the rumors of their respective deaths had been greatly exaggerated.
It’s not hard to see why so many people love Him. Of course, long before you were born God was considered something of a bad boy, at least within the theological community. You’ve seen William Blake’s painting with His shaggy hair whipping through the air like a rock star’s and His byzantine muscles gleaming with cosmic power. Somewhere down the line, you think around the Italian Renaissance, God started to mellow out a little. These days His hair is white and puffy like Christopher Lloyd’s, but the look works for Him. He’s also put on a little weight over the last few centuries but that just makes Him feel safer somehow. Like a big, tame animal.


Rated R for: sex, adult themes
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Max e^{i pi} on December 07, 2010, 05:35:50 PM
Well, this one was... weird.
I personally don't like the second-person-omnipotent way of telling a story. It reminds me too much of the choose your own adventure books, and those were fun, but trashy. It also doesn't ever seem to make sense to tell a story like that. I mean, if I know what happened, since it happened to me, why are you telling me? In a choose your own adventure book it makes sense. In a letter it makes sense, but as a story? I think not.
The content of the story was kinda fun actually.
I like the idea of treating god and the archangels as people running around New York. It kind of fits nicely.
On the other hand, I'm conflicted as to whether this whole story isn't a parable for somebody's (the author's?) relationship with god or their own faith. There were enough puns in there to make me doubt the "innocence" of the story. (Innocent meaning it's just a story, no deeper meaning implied. And before the flames start: that is not a simple equation, puns=deeper meaning. It's just that here it seemed to fit. Those puns sort of implying something else.)
But all that (except for the first part) was on retrospect. While listening I found it easy to lose myself in the story, and I was swept up by it, although those questions did bother me a little from the corner of my mind. The lack of closure or a resolution to the story left me feeling a little at a loss though. When the theme music came back on I was like "Wait, it's over? How is that possible? That wasn't an ending!" As if the author had run out of words or perhaps hit some ambiguous goal ("After 3 hours I stop writing").
The little love story was sweet, and interesting, if only for the people who were in it. (Is god a people?)
But what I mostly enjoyed was the reading. Very well done. And I like how the rabbi was supposed to have a nice Jewish Brooklyn accent, but she ended up sounding like a nagging Jewish mom from Brooklyn. Which was cute. And funny.
So, yeah. I have very mixed feelings about this story. And I'm not even going into the religious ramifications.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Swamp on December 07, 2010, 06:53:37 PM
Blasphemous or not, I enjoyed this piece.  When stories like this come up, I try to put my religious bias asside, and enjoy it from the author's intent.  I only dislike it when it becomes obviously condescending or disrespectful to religion and/or God.  I don't think that was the case here--a bit irreverent perhaps, but in a playful way.

I definately see a parallel between the doubt and vunerability one feels in a romantic relationship, and how an atheist or skeptic feel in their relation to God.  Whether intended or not, I think it was well done.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: wintermute on December 07, 2010, 09:36:54 PM
Dave: I don't know if you're already a fan, but if not I'd like to recommend Slacktivist to you. Come for the take-downs of Left Behind*, stay for the social theology. Speaking as a life-long atheist, it's the best theology blog I've ever seen.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/

*So far he's worked his way through the first book, the movie adaptation, and is about half-way through the second book.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: DKT on December 07, 2010, 10:07:55 PM
Dave: I don't know if you're already a fan, but if not I'd like to recommend Slacktivist to you. Come for the take-downs of Left Behind*, stay for the social theology. Speaking as a life-long atheist, it's the best theology blog I've ever seen.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/

*So far he's worked his way through the first book, the movie adaptation, and is about half-way through the second book.

ZOMG I LURVE Slacktivist  ;D  This one (http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2010/08/please-forgive-me-for-the-actions-of-extremists-i-have-never-met-who-commit-acts-of-violence-that-i-.html), in particular, made me incredibly happy. I haven't read all the Left Behind posts, but I really should change that :)
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: LaHaine on December 08, 2010, 07:41:54 AM
I liked this story. I had to chuckle several times and I am glad that I was able to understand the religious insider jokes. I hope some religious person will get offended by this and complain here, an American fundamentalist would be funny.

The ending was a bit sudden, no resolution to the story made it just a snapshot of the main character's feelings.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: kotyonok on December 08, 2010, 12:26:05 PM
I did not like this story at all.  It's concept is not to my liking and it is blasphemous in my opinion.  I will not listen to it all the way through.  Kotyonok
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Heradel on December 08, 2010, 03:17:30 PM
Well, LaHaine got their wish in fairly short order.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Swamp on December 08, 2010, 04:35:55 PM
I hope some religious person will get offended by this and complain here, an American fundamentalist would be funny.

I did not like this story at all.  It's concept is not to my liking and it is blasphemous in my opinion.  I will not listen to it all the way through.  Kotyonok

Well, LaHaine got their wish in fairly short order.

Yes, but I think kotyonok's opinion is valid and understandable.  He/she simply stated their opinion and did not get rude about it.  Differing opinions are expected.  LaHaine seems to imply that anyone who would not like this story based on their religious views is foolish.  Untrue.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Heradel on December 08, 2010, 08:47:20 PM
Well, yes, I certainly wasn't implying Kotyonok was a fundamentalist. Honestly I haven't yet listened to this story, and I'm sure that it could be reasonably found blasphemous from the other comments on the thread. I was just more commenting on LaHaine's conjuring skills.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: BlueLu on December 08, 2010, 10:35:45 PM
I don't really know what this story had to say about a person's relationship to God.  Is there some deep symbolism I'm missing, because it seemed to be a pretty banal break-up story with the word God substituted for the older-wiser-cooler boyfriend's name.  I don't really understand what the purpose of it all was and didn't find it unique and enjoyable enough for the exercise to have had no purpose at all.

I'm a great fan of blasphemy (because I can't pull it off myself) and would have liked a little more.  Or a little more depth.

Ouch.  I sound grouchy today.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: jeroen94704 on December 09, 2010, 01:48:00 PM
I REALLY liked Tatiana's reading of this. She really improved the liveliness of the story with her voice and story-telling ability.

As for the content of the story: you could read it figuratively as a person's struggle with their faith, as opposed as a literal break-up story. Maybe it's about a very devout person who starts doubting their faith, then finds it again. Still, I'm not a religious person, and I got a few chuckles out of the literal interpretation: The portrayal of a god and other supernatural beings as some sort of womanizing frat-boys.

So yeah, it is definitely a blasphemous story, in the sense that it is irreverent towards an entity considered sacred or sacrosanct by others. But in my view, saying something is blasphemous is just short-hand for saying some people will disagree with it, which is true for pretty much everything a person can say. As long as things are kept civil, polite and respectful, there's nothing wrong with that.

Jeroen
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: AliceNred on December 10, 2010, 01:45:01 AM
For some reason, I like fantasy stories about god when he seems human-ish.

This may be the only story I have ever come across where the second-person-omnipotent worked. Although it still bugged me a little. It's not that I couldn't see myself dating God. I was into God when I was younger and we, like most, grow apart.

 Tatiana Gomberg deserves some sort of award for her reading.

And frankly, I am little surprised a man wrote this. Although, honestly, as much as women would like to believe that MEN are from someplace where you don't understand all of the customs and there is a bit of a language and that other dross, I think, guys have the same stuff inside, we just express it differently. I think.

I really liked how smart the story was. In my writing group, if this was passed around, I think there would have been notes on the vocabulary. But I think it was true to the character and therefore perfect. Plus it captures that air of college land.

I am sure many will consider the story to be blasphemes. But I loved how God was one of us and wasn't. I loved how more than Christianity was placed into the story. I loved how she was forever changed by his love and it hurt, like love does, but she was richer for it. Don't you want God to enrich your life? At least I want lit to.

This was hoot and to those who might not have cared for it, relax, and have a drink. I bet The Big Guy picks up the tab.



Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: l33tminion on December 10, 2010, 07:30:35 AM
I do like a good parable.  Love and religion as metaphors for one another is hardly a new idea, but this story does it well.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Unblinking on December 10, 2010, 02:49:21 PM
I have to wonder why second person was chosen for this story.  The use of it in this story seemed smoother than most uses of 2nd person, but in this case it reaches a high point of "it only bothered me a little".  The only reason I can think of is so that the line "He's just not that into you" could be written in the narration, to parallel the book and movie title of the same name.

I really enjoyed this story as I was listening to it, especially little silly jokes like the fact that God is a keynote speaker at a theology seminar, and the fact that her know-it-all boyfriend literally knows it all.  It was definitely blasphemous, but I don't necessarily see blasphemy as a bad thing.  If it allows you to explore the religion in new and interesting ways, or to think about some religious practices in a new light then it can still have value.  You don't have to BELIEVE in the events of the story, but that doesn't mean that you can't think about them.

But after I was done listening to the story, the luster has quickly faded.  Thinking back, it just seems like a standard breakup story, but with God's and Gabriel's names swapped in.  I'm not so sure this is actually a metaphor for losing faith.  It strikes me more as a metaphor for a breakup, particularly from the side of the person who never wanted the breakup and who puts the other person up on a pedestal, deifying them in their nostalgic memory.  The more I think about it, that seems the more likely, and now the story is quickly fading into other breakup stories in my memory.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: stePH on December 10, 2010, 06:23:53 PM
Dave: I don't know if you're already a fan, but if not I'd like to recommend Slacktivist to you. Come for the take-downs of Left Behind*, stay for the social theology. Speaking as a life-long atheist, it's the best theology blog I've ever seen.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/

*So far he's worked his way through the first book, the movie adaptation, and is about half-way through the second book.

ZOMG I LURVE Slacktivist  ;D  This one (http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2010/08/please-forgive-me-for-the-actions-of-extremists-i-have-never-met-who-commit-acts-of-violence-that-i-.html), in particular, made me incredibly happy. I haven't read all the Left Behind posts, but I really should change that :)

I tried, a couple of years back, to read the Slacktivist Left Behind posts, but can't find the starting point. Could anybody help?
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: DKT on December 10, 2010, 06:46:35 PM
Here's a pretty good index (http://exharpazo.blogspot.com/2007/01/index-to-slactivists-left-behind.html) (by somebody else) of all Slacktivist's Left Behind stuff. Enjoy  :)
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Scattercat on December 12, 2010, 07:50:28 AM
nthing the love for Slacktivist, whom I generally find to be insightful and witty, and whose presence on the Internet is one of the few remaining reassuring things I read on a regular basis.

As for this story, I expected to hate it, just based on the use of second person and the fact that I tend to find religion-as-relationship stories unsatisfying at best.  It is a testament to the skill on display here, I think, that by the end of it I was pretty thoroughly engaged and went so far as to complete the unboxing of my new board game (Dominant Species!  It has hundreds of colorful wooden blocks and a hex map!  OMG OMG!) rather than go to start the dishes.  Well done, sir.  Well done, indeed.

I would have to agree, however, that the metaphor isn't terribly deep.  It works, but it's kept very much on a personal/human level without delving too much into the metaphysical ramifications.  That is, it's a very good romance/breakup story with a slightly gimmicky hook rather than a thorough exploration of the similarities and differences between faith and romantic love.  I would have enjoyed the story quite as much if the Ex-boyfriend had been a generic celebrity; the God thing added the potential for some humor and amusing blasphemies, but not much in the way of thematic content.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Gia on December 12, 2010, 11:32:33 PM
Like other people, I think that this one was just a break-up story. There are two reasons why I think that this story does not work as a metaphorical story about faith. The first is that God doesn't leave people. People leave God and then God tries to get them to take him back even if they don't realize it. That brings me to my second reason which is that she really doesn't do much to rebuild their relationship. Sure, there were a few awkward phone calls, but those were more I'm-insecure-and-lonely than I'm-trying-to-stay-in-touch. She also studies theology which would be a good way to learn more about God and reconnect with him, but there is no indication that she's studying this for any reason other than academic ones. She doesn't pray, she doesn't go on a pilgrimage or retreat, she doesn't go out of her way to find something to be thankful for, she doesn't try to connect with other people of faith and she doesn't explore other concepts of God. You know, some of the many things someone might consider doing to strengthen his faith. Basically she isn't searching for God, she's spending years moping about how her boyfriend left. It sort of seems like her boyfriend being God was just added in to get attention.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: AliceNred on December 13, 2010, 01:42:11 AM
Like other people, I think that this one was just a break-up story. There are two reasons why I think that this story does not work as a metaphorical story about faith. The first is that God doesn't leave people. People leave God and then God tries to get them to take him back even if they don't realize it. That brings me to my second reason which is that she really doesn't do much to rebuild their relationship. Sure, there were a few awkward phone calls, but those were more I'm-insecure-and-lonely than I'm-trying-to-stay-in-touch. She also studies theology which would be a good way to learn more about God and reconnect with him, but there is no indication that she's studying this for any reason other than academic ones. She doesn't pray, she doesn't go on a pilgrimage or retreat, she doesn't go out of her way to find something to be thankful for, she doesn't try to connect with other people of faith and she doesn't explore other concepts of God. You know, some of the many things someone might consider doing to strengthen his faith. Basically she isn't searching for God, she's spending years moping about how her boyfriend left. It sort of seems like her boyfriend being God was just added in to get attention.

I personally don't really think it was meant as metaphor about faith.

You've several good points about her not really trying to get into a real relationship with God before or after they weren't together any more. BUT, and I mean this in a respectful way, she and the story saw God as man, like the Romans saw their gods.

It seems that you see God in a very different way.

I don't think for one moment the story was about her faith.

As for your last thought, about she, or the story, only picking God as a boyfriend as an attention getter, I can sort of see what you mean. But I'd be willing to beat, that it was a fun idea and one that had not been explored.

I am sure you are expressing what a lot of others are feeling. I think for some, that would've been the whole point of the story. But I walked away with a feeling, that God wasn't a bad guy and that she had sought him out and He had answered. For whatever reason, the one on one relationship was done with for him. There are times when something just ends, for no other reason than it can't go on forever, this person is not the one. And there are times, or at least I have been told, where an older man, and a younger lady, where she out grows him, that she has gotten what she needed out of the relationship. Perhaps he saw this.

Faith is personal. More personal than anything I can think of. And it is one thing that has shaped and changed my life for many, many years.






Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: iamafish on December 13, 2010, 09:50:44 AM
I personally found this story hilarious! It's one of those that makes lots of subtle little jokes that you have to know quite a lot to get. Fortunately theology and philosophy are two of my favourite academic topics (even though I'm a pretty avid atheist), so I got quite a few of the references.

I think quite a few people are trying to read a little too much into the story - maybe it's not a metaphor for something, maybe it doesn't represent something bigger. Maybe it's just a fun little tale making light of Religion and the concept of God.

That being said I had a few issues; for a start why write in the 2nd person? ever? As a writer I use the mantra that you should only write in something other than the third person and the past tense if it serves to further the point of the story. Unless it contributes to the story in a way that would not work in the 3rd person or the past tense, there's no point in moving away from the norm. 2nd person especially is always a strange one - why would you be telling someone what they did? they did it, surely they should be telling you. Unless they're suffering from amnesia or something, but there's never any good excuse to dig that old trope up again.

Secondly it didn't really end, it just stopped. Nothing was resolved, no closure was found, no-one learnt anything. It felt like the writer just ran out of things to say.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: AliceNred on December 13, 2010, 04:15:20 PM

That being said I had a few issues; for a start why write in the 2nd person? ever? As a writer I use the mantra that you should only write in something other than the third person and the past tense if it serves to further the point of the story. Unless it contributes to the story in a way that would not work in the 3rd person or the past tense, there's no point in moving away from the norm. 2nd person especially is always a strange one - why would you be telling someone what they did? they did it, surely they should be telling you. Unless they're suffering from amnesia or something, but there's never any good excuse to dig that old trope up again.

Perhaps it is strange because not many can do it well. And art should push boundaries.

I am sure 2nd person was a deliberate choice. Here is why I think Sam Schreiber did so: it was a challenge, and the writer thought it made the story more personal and current. At least these are the reasons I would've selected 2nd POV.

There are other successful examples of 2nd POV: Italo Calvino's If on a Winter's Night a Traveler, Tom Robbins' Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas, Damage by A.M. Jenkins.

Then there is First Person: The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway, David Copperfield by Charles Dickens, and Sherlock Holmes adventure are written from this POV too.

Most stories do work best form one of the forms of 3rd person POV. Some stories come through too strongly to be written in this POV. But most writers, find it hard to write well in anything other than 3rd person POV.

Secondly it didn't really end, it just stopped. Nothing was resolved, no closure was found, no-one learnt anything. It felt like the writer just ran out of things to say.

I disagree with you here. Time had past, she was now a teacher. Meeting another whom she was sure had also loved and was loved by God helped her see Him in a new light, one where God's love was larger than one she had experienced. And she was okay with that. She had a from of closure, and in turn, so did the story.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Unblinking on December 13, 2010, 04:18:59 PM
I am sure 2nd person was a deliberate choice. Here is why I think Sam Schreiber did so: it was a challenge, and the writer thought it made the story more personal and current. At least these are the reasons I would've selected 2nd POV.


I wonder what the author would say.  For me a 2nd person makes it less personal, because I am only accustomed to having people tell me what I have already done the morning after imbibing large quantities of alcohol.  Okay, so I rarely drink, but this is one of the few ways in which I can imagine 2nd person making sense (The story of The Hangover works well in this way)
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: AliceNred on December 13, 2010, 04:42:59 PM
I am sure 2nd person was a deliberate choice. Here is why I think Sam Schreiber did so: it was a challenge, and the writer thought it made the story more personal and current. At least these are the reasons I would've selected 2nd POV.


I wonder what the author would say.  For me a 2nd person makes it less personal, because I am only accustomed to having people tell me what I have already done the morning after imbibing large quantities of alcohol.  Okay, so I rarely drink, but this is one of the few ways in which I can imagine 2nd person making sense (The story of The Hangover works well in this way)

*Chuckles* That may indeed be so, but it seemed that there was at least some drinking in the story as well.  ;)

I tend to not drink so much because: I am a lightweight, far too many of my relatives having drinking issues, someone has to get folks home, and I got married and had a kid and divorced at a far too early of an age, 19, leaving me to the getting up early every morning thing. Getting up with a hangover makes your whole day bad. Besides, I am Dyslexic with a capital D and a blond. I see the world in an eccentric perspective any way, and I need each of my tiny brains cells just so I can move out of the way before the door hits me on the ass.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Scattercat on December 13, 2010, 05:33:21 PM
I took the use of second person as a bit of a riff on the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God.  God can speak in the second person if He wants, after all, and there's not much anyone can do to gainsay Him.  By definition, God is right about you.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Schreiber on December 13, 2010, 06:48:03 PM
I wonder what the author would say.

I knew this story would rankle some feathers, but I didn't imagine that the 2nd Person narrative would be the most universally controversial part.

If you're interested in reading stories that do fun and challenging things with this device, I would recommend Lorrie Moore's "How to Be Another Woman," Pam Houston's "How to Talk to a Hunter" and Junot Diaz's "How to Date A Brown Girl." They've all been anthologized or collected and you can find Diaz reading his story on the New Yorker Fiction podcast and Houston's story in the archives of PRI: Selected Shorts.


And I'm out.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Unblinking on December 13, 2010, 08:49:04 PM
I wonder what the author would say.

I knew this story would rankle some feathers, but I didn't imagine that the 2nd Person narrative would be the most universally controversial part.

If you're interested in reading stories that do fun and challenging things with this device, I would recommend Lorrie Moore's "How to Be Another Woman," Pam Houston's "How to Talk to a Hunter" and Junot Diaz's "How to Date A Brown Girl." They've all been anthologized or collected and you can find Diaz reading his story on the New Yorker Fiction podcast and Houston's story in the archives of PRI: Selected Shorts.


And I'm out.

I've read other stories with 2nd person, and I've always found it distracting.  I doubt those 3 stories would be any different, and the fact that they are in 2nd makes me slightly less interested in reading them.  I'm still interested in your take on why you chose 2nd, if you feel like sharing...

For what it's worth, it takes more than blasphemy to ruffle my feathers, especially when done humorously.  I have a very broad sense of humor when it comes to religion.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Unblinking on December 13, 2010, 08:55:35 PM
I took the use of second person as a bit of a riff on the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God.  God can speak in the second person if He wants, after all, and there's not much anyone can do to gainsay Him.  By definition, God is right about you.

Even in that light, the choice of 2nd makes no sense to me.  God certainly CAN tell my story in 2nd person, but:
1.  What would the point be?  I remember what I have done and do not need to be told what I have done.  2nd person future tense might be short for a while, because God presumably knows what I WILL do while I can't see the future.
2.  If God meant to tell me my story, he got it wrong.  Cuz I didn't do any of this stuff, I'm not a theologian, I'm not a woman, and I have never dated God.

Yup, still doesn't make sense to me.  It's still one of the better ones I heard, as it only bothered me a little.  It didn't make the story unenjoyable, I just have yet to understand the point of choosing 2nd person, and it always makes me curious if there was actually a purpose to the choice, or if it's just to see if one can pull it off.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: ElectricPaladin on December 14, 2010, 03:13:32 PM
So, I'm going to come clean and say that this story really resonated with me, because that's kind of my story. In college I was totally going to be a rabbi and I had a totally intense, personal relationship with God and mysticism. I literally prayed every day, and not because I went to some kind of service every day, because I would make up prayers on the spot for whatever I needed. I had friends who used to greet me with cries of "Reb Mark!" and tell me what an awesome rabbi I was going to be.

Now, in Jewish mysticism we actually have a concept of God as male and female, with a female aspect, so I won't say I'm exactly like the rabbinic student i the story... but except for the accent and the sexuality, he really reminded me of myself, too. I used to love to argue talk about that sort of stuff, at great length, with whoever would listen. I still do, actually.

So there I am in college, with this deep and personal relationship with God and faith and mysticism... and then I hit a really bad patch of sub-clinical depression. At the time, I just thought it was a funk - and maybe there's no difference between a bad funk and sub-clinical depression, but it helps to think of it that way now - but now I see that it really was one of the harder times of my life. And my faith helps me through it. And then my favorite uncle dies, and my faith helps me through it. And my parents get crazier and crazier, and my faith helps me through it. And I graduate and apply to rabbinic school...

And I'm rejected.

It's not a "door closed in your face" rejection, but it is a "you are totally not ready for this commitment - go away and grow up a bit, kid" kind of rejection. It really stings. And suddenly I realize that what I thought was "faith" was also - in addition to really being faith - a crutch that I was using to avoid engaging with fear and pain (as opposed to using it to help me deal with fear and pain - not knocking faith here, just how I was using it), and that my "calling" was actually anxiety about what I wanted to do when I grew up masquerading as certainty.

Fast forward five years later, and I'm teaching science (wtf, I know) in an inner city middle school. I still feel like I'm doing good work - tikkun olam is real and alive for me - but I've lost that close personal connection. I can get the feeling that God and I went from lovers to friends, and sometimes I miss that burning, intense, closeness to the divine. I think that, knowing I have the capacity for it, it will come back if I ever need it or decide to pursue it. I still miss it, though.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Sarcastro on December 16, 2010, 12:16:38 AM
Sure, Corinthains and you dated.  In fact, you sought her out, choosing her before Escape Pod or Radio lab.  I mean, she's totally your type - you can't love philosophy and bureaucracy as much as you do and not be into Judeo-Christain pastiche.  Inferno, P.L., You're still on a first name basis with many of them.   Mmmm Screwtape still gives you chills.

But almost as soon as the relationship began, you knew it wasn't going to amount to much.  Sure, Corinthians said she was a story, but you could quickly tell she was just a thesis putting on aires.  There were no quirks you could fall in love with, or narrative twists to keep you warm at night.  

There was one moment though - a spark that gave you hope for a bit.  An angel was complaining about Free Will.  Now here was something more than a simple breakup with special names...but then it was gone, never to return.

Sure, you fastforwarded a bit.  At first a few seconds, but then minutes at a time.  But you don't feel guilty  You knoe you'd never FF a real story.   But a mere thesis?  It's not like she was going to surprise you or anything.

So long story short, you're back on the market.  In fact, you're sufficiently unsated you may just commit to a Giant for a while!
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Gia on December 16, 2010, 03:37:46 AM
Sure, Corinthains and you dated.  In fact, you sought her out, choosing her before Escape Pod or Radio lab.  I mean, she's totally your type - you can't love philosophy and bureaucracy as much as you do and not be into Judeo-Christain pastiche.  Inferno, P.L., You're still on a first name basis with many of them.   Mmmm Screwtape still gives you chills.

But almost as soon as the relationship began, you knew it wasn't going to amount to much.  Sure, Corinthians said he was a story, but you could quickly tell she was just a thesis putting on aires.  There were no quirks you could fall in love with, or narrative twists to keep you warm at night.  

There was one moment though - a spark that gave you hope for a bit.  An angel was complaining about Free Will.  Now here was something more than a simple breakup with special names...but then it was gone, never to return.

Sure, you fastforwarded a bit.  At first a few seconds, but then minutes at a time.  But you don't feel guilty  You knoe you'd never FF a real story.   But a mere thesis?  It's not like she was going to surprise you or anything.

So long story short, you're back on the market.  In fact, you're sufficiently unsated you may just commit to a Giant for a while!
Comment style win! ;D
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Raenestro on December 20, 2010, 12:45:50 PM
The message I took away from this story was simple and made a lot of sense to me: God loves you. But He's not *in love* with you.

Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: stePH on December 20, 2010, 03:25:36 PM
Sure, Corinthains and you dated.  In fact, you sought her out, choosing her before Escape Pod or Radio lab.  I mean, she's totally your type - you can't love philosophy and bureaucracy as much as you do and not be into Judeo-Christain pastiche.  Inferno, P.L., You're still on a first name basis with many of them.   Mmmm Screwtape still gives you chills.

But almost as soon as the relationship began, you knew it wasn't going to amount to much.  Sure, Corinthians said she was a story, but you could quickly tell she was just a thesis putting on aires.  There were no quirks you could fall in love with, or narrative twists to keep you warm at night.  

There was one moment though - a spark that gave you hope for a bit.  An angel was complaining about Free Will.  Now here was something more than a simple breakup with special names...but then it was gone, never to return.

Sure, you fastforwarded a bit.  At first a few seconds, but then minutes at a time.  But you don't feel guilty  You knoe you'd never FF a real story.   But a mere thesis?  It's not like she was going to surprise you or anything.

So long story short, you're back on the market.  In fact, you're sufficiently unsated you may just commit to a Giant for a while!

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Stephen Karnas likes this.
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Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Anarquistador on December 22, 2010, 12:02:30 AM
I don't know...somehow I don't picture The Dude when I think of God.

For some reason, I think of Wilford Brimley....
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Scattercat on December 22, 2010, 03:21:06 AM
For some reason, I think of Wilford Brimley....

It's the mustache.  There is power in the 'stache.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: yicheng on December 22, 2010, 08:10:31 PM
I kept on waiting for this story to get better, do something, anything, but in the end I found this one un-redeemably annoying.  I consider myself an Agnostic-leaning Buddhist, and I've always found the idea of a personal omnipotent deity to be paradoxical.  I've always thought that if there was a Supreme Being, it would be a kind of Omnipotent Grand Architect, rather than something that was like you but only more powerful. 

To me, it just seemed like this story started with a dead horse and kept on beating it, and beating it, and beating it, and then beat it some more.  It felt like I was supposed to identify with this in a way that I never could.  It was like this when I watched "A Serious Man".  People swore up and down that it was this totally profound movie about God or something, but I just held my hands up when the movie ended like "WTF was that even about?".

So, I don't really get it.  I guess if you're a theist, or a recovering theist, maybe this story was like a metaphor for you in some way.  But I'm just like  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: LaShawn on December 23, 2010, 03:51:41 PM
I'm currently listening to Dave's intro. I just want to say: THIS. ::nods head::
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: LaShawn on December 23, 2010, 07:27:16 PM
All right. Just finished listening to the story, and I have to say, as a Christian, I was severely, severely disappointed at the use of 1st Corinthians in this story. That happens to be my favorite passage in the Bible and listening to it as it was narrated was just wrong. Absolutely wrong.
 
Look, if she's going to do a mad drunken rant spouting of 1st Christians 13, she justs can't rattle off "Love never fails," just ever so glibly, like an afterthought. Come on. She's been dumped. By *GOD*. She needs to get up all in his face and belt out the first part of verse 8 like a good hard blow to the solar plexus "LOOOOOVE NEVER FAIIIIIIIILS, YA G******* D******** B*******!!!!"
 
Well, okay, without the last part. don't want to make it any more blaphemous.
 
Oh, how I love this story. I have a brother in law who's in seminary who I know will love this story. My Dean of Theological Studies father in law will love this story. My mother will not. It has so much seminary humor it makes my head spin. I remember reading in college books that stressed putting emphasis on having a relationship with God over dating relationships. There was just one problem--There wasn't any *physical* side of God to speak of. There was no arms to wrap around you. No coming home to him with a cup of hot cocoa and a peck on the cheek. I really wanted that physical part of a relationship, you know.
 
I won't bore you with how it stretched and honed my spiritual life, but I liked how this story reflected that part of myself. I also liked how in the end, she had moved on, but hadn't regretted and became a stronger person for it. Great story, great reading, and absolutely the best use of a Bible passage (though again, I'm saddened that no emphasis was placed on the love-never-fails bit. So bitter...). And yes, I agree. Paul does scare me sometimes too.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Erenna on December 24, 2010, 01:26:05 AM
I have to say I consider myself pretty much a fundamentalist at least in some areas but this didn't really offend me at all, other than God dumping her (and the whole sex outside of marriage thing we need not get into) the characterization of God seemed pretty good.  And sometimes it really can feel like God has abandoned you even though latter you can usually see he was there all along.

Any hoo I mostly wanted to say I didn't even notice it was in 2nd person until I read the comments on the forum.  Apparently it totally worked for me.  Possibly if I had been reading it it would have distracted me but listening the story just flowed over me, good work!
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: therinth on December 26, 2010, 12:51:25 AM
I loved this story. Maybe my brain was just hard wired for it, but the theology in it scratches the parts of my brain i want it to scratch, i found the use of the 2nd person fantastic -- it doesn't bother me when it's done well, and for me, this is done well -- and i found it hilarious and illuminating in turns.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Unblinking on December 28, 2010, 05:43:08 PM
It was like this when I watched "A Serious Man".  People swore up and down that it was this totally profound movie about God or something, but I just held my hands up when the movie ended like "WTF was that even about?".

"A Serious Man" was profound?  Well I totally didn't get it.  Nevertheless, I loved that movie.  I had the same "WTF was that even about?" reaction, but I enjoyed that.  I still have no idea what it's about, but that's life sometimes.  I don't want every movie to give me that reaction, but every once in a while it's fine (and usually happens in Coen Brothers movies).  To me, what makes the movie remarkable was that it managed to be SIMULTANEOUSLY laugh out loud hilarious and terribly depressing.  I don't know how they managed that juxtaposition, but I loved it.

(I saw this movie just before listening to Podcastle's "Dybbuk in a Bottle", so it ruined that story for me, seeing as how the Dybbuk in the PC story did not match any characteristics of Dybbuks, being pretty much a djinn with a different name)
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Listener on December 28, 2010, 10:12:01 PM
The message I took away from this story was simple and made a lot of sense to me: God loves you. But He's not *in love* with you.

Very succinct.

I for one enjoyed listening to the story, though the physical descriptions of God and the way the MC liked him "just the way he is" reminded me of a Dumbledore/Hermione fanfic I read many years ago (before book 6 came out). I didn't like the MC at all, not from the start, because after a couple of minutes I knew exactly how the story would end and all she did was whine and complain about how great it was when she was with God and how upset she was without him.

The gay rabbi was a nice touch.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: mbrennan on January 01, 2011, 12:37:48 AM
Since I tend to save up stories and then listen to them in bunches, I'm always coming late to the commenting party, but count me among those for whom this just didn't work.  I rarely feel like second-person narration adds something to the story; mostly it tends to feel like a self-consciously artificial device, preventing me from really investing with the characters.  As for the narrative itself . . . I tend to find the base concept (reminiscing over a relationship, the breakup, the awkwardness after, etc) completely unengaging, and making the boyfriend literally be God didn't change that for me.  Had it been the protagonist's decision to break up, as somebody else in this thread suggested, and God trying to get her back, that would have made me more interested, but as it stood this felt like a completely ordinary relationship story, and not at all my cup of tea.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Void Munashii on January 05, 2011, 03:55:45 PM
  I know I am well late to the party (I am backed up on a number of my commute podcasts), but I did finally get around to listening to this. I'm afraid that the point, assuming there is one, of this story is a little lost on me, but I enjoyed it all the same. Even my wife, who generally finds "blasphemous" fiction objectionable, seemed to enjoy it.

  The story made me think of Heather O'Neill's story about Mary Magdalene going to elementary school with a young Jesus. Even though the stories are both very different they felt like they had the same tone and fry sense of humour to them.

  As for seeing God as The Dude, no. I picture God as wearing a smart suit, and looking very professional even with a great bunch of white hair and a beard that would make Santa jealous. The Dude is cool, but I would hardly describe him as looking professional.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Scattercat on January 05, 2011, 07:50:26 PM
  As for seeing God as The Dude, no. I picture God as wearing a smart suit, and looking very professional even with a great bunch of white hair and a beard that would make Santa jealous. The Dude is cool, but I would hardly describe him as looking professional.

Technically, God is an amateur.  No one ever paid Him for His creative works, after all.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Void Munashii on January 05, 2011, 09:09:24 PM
  As for seeing God as The Dude, no. I picture God as wearing a smart suit, and looking very professional even with a great bunch of white hair and a beard that would make Santa jealous. The Dude is cool, but I would hardly describe him as looking professional.

Technically, God is an amateur.  No one ever paid Him for His creative works, after all.

  I dunno, after a few billion (or six thousand, if you prefer) years of practice, I think He would be a professional at it by now. I certainly can't think of any other all-powerful deities who do a better job than Him (although I am pretty wizard at The Sims).

  I would say that lots of people have paid Him for his works; animal sacrifices, tithing, etc.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Unblinking on January 06, 2011, 07:35:58 PM
  As for seeing God as The Dude, no. I picture God as wearing a smart suit, and looking very professional even with a great bunch of white hair and a beard that would make Santa jealous. The Dude is cool, but I would hardly describe him as looking professional.

Technically, God is an amateur.  No one ever paid Him for His creative works, after all.

  I dunno, after a few billion (or six thousand, if you prefer) years of practice, I think He would be a professional at it by now. I certainly can't think of any other all-powerful deities who do a better job than Him (although I am pretty wizard at The Sims).

  I would say that lots of people have paid Him for his works; animal sacrifices, tithing, etc.

I've got to vote for amateur on this one too.  Considering he could create any of those things with a thought, they're not really payments at all.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on January 06, 2011, 08:42:20 PM
Technically, God is an amateur.  No one ever paid Him for His creative works, after all.
I would say that lots of people have paid Him for his works; animal sacrifices, tithing, etc.
I've got to vote for amateur on this one too.  Considering he could create any of those things with a thought, they're not really payments at all.

This raises an interesting point.  Is payment what I give, or what you receive, or both?  If I give you something that I consider valuable, but it's worthless to you, have I paid you or not?  What if I give up something that is of little or no value to me, but it is of great value to you?  Does it require both sides to form 'payment'?  Hmm...
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: ElectricPaladin on January 06, 2011, 09:59:52 PM
God is the first of the true artists. He cannot help but to create, so he is always creating. He'll make worlds in a high-rise studio on the Upper East Side, or he'll spin out galaxies in back-alleys and subway tunnels. Goodness knows he's done both. Amateur, professional, hobbyist, calling, vocation - these distinctions don't matter to God. God is creation.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Scattercat on January 06, 2011, 10:16:18 PM
God is the first of the true artists. He cannot help but to create, so he is always creating. He'll make worlds in a high-rise studio on the Upper East Side, or he'll spin out galaxies in back-alleys and subway tunnels. Goodness knows he's done both. Amateur, professional, hobbyist, calling, vocation - these distinctions don't matter to God. God is creation.

Mmhm.  That's what everyone says until they make their first big sale.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Unblinking on January 07, 2011, 03:33:15 PM
Technically, God is an amateur.  No one ever paid Him for His creative works, after all.
I would say that lots of people have paid Him for his works; animal sacrifices, tithing, etc.
I've got to vote for amateur on this one too.  Considering he could create any of those things with a thought, they're not really payments at all.

This raises an interesting point.  Is payment what I give, or what you receive, or both?  If I give you something that I consider valuable, but it's worthless to you, have I paid you or not?  What if I give up something that is of little or no value to me, but it is of great value to you?  Does it require both sides to form 'payment'?  Hmm...

Hmmm, that's true.  Isn't there a story in the bible about a poor person who gives a single penny that they can't afford to give, and a rich person who gives a bunch of money that they won't miss, and the poor person is the virtuous one in the lesson because the penny is a substantial part of their income?  So perhaps that's how it's all gauged, and that's God's clue to this aspect?  Or maybe some guy made it up while he was translating, something I've always got to wonder...
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Void Munashii on January 07, 2011, 04:12:21 PM
Technically, God is an amateur.  No one ever paid Him for His creative works, after all.
I would say that lots of people have paid Him for his works; animal sacrifices, tithing, etc.
I've got to vote for amateur on this one too.  Considering he could create any of those things with a thought, they're not really payments at all.

This raises an interesting point.  Is payment what I give, or what you receive, or both?  If I give you something that I consider valuable, but it's worthless to you, have I paid you or not?  What if I give up something that is of little or no value to me, but it is of great value to you?  Does it require both sides to form 'payment'?  Hmm...

  I would say it requires both, but it does not require both parties to view the payment as any great value. If I buy something at the dollar store I am paying the agreed upon price, but I don't think either side would consider it that great of a payment.

  Alternately, if I get a new TV, and offer you my old TV (this presumes that you want it) if you help me move the new one in and the old one out, I will feel like I got the better end of the deal because you helped me with the heavy lifting and took that old TV off my hands. You would feel that you got something of value as well, as you now have a TV where you did not before. Even though I did not value the payment, you did, and it is what we agreed on, so it is payment

  As far as God being able to create all of these things himself, yes, of course He can, but we still give Him these things as a form of payment for His continued love and favour. We don't generally call it payment, but from it still looks like that to me.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on January 07, 2011, 08:00:05 PM
This raises an interesting point.  Is payment what I give, or what you receive, or both?  If I give you something that I consider valuable, but it's worthless to you, have I paid you or not?  What if I give up something that is of little or no value to me, but it is of great value to you?  Does it require both sides to form 'payment'?  Hmm...

... if I get a new TV, and offer you my old TV (this presumes that you want it) if you help me move the new one in and the old one out, I will feel like I got the better end of the deal because you helped me with the heavy lifting and took that old TV off my hands. You would feel that you got something of value as well, as you now have a TV where you did not before. Even though I did not value the payment, you did, and it is what we agreed on, so it is payment

But you did value the payment: you said yourself, "I will feel like I got the better end of the deal."

You may not end up with a thing you can hold in your hand, like a $100 bill, but you did 'receive' (or really, got to keep) less tangible things that you valued as much, like time, room in your home and possibly the health of your aching back!
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Unblinking on January 10, 2011, 02:36:49 PM
  As far as God being able to create all of these things himself, yes, of course He can, but we still give Him these things as a form of payment for His continued love and favour. We don't generally call it payment, but from it still looks like that to me.

I'd call that more of a tribute than a payment, but I guess that's more splitting hairs.  :P
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: skysadventure on January 15, 2011, 09:38:40 AM
Hi,

I've been working my way through the back catalogue and am nearly up to date but had to comment on this one because it was funny!  As a quite deeply religious person it did not offend me in the least, and yes, reading the other posts, it is largely a relationship & break up tale, but told with a great sense of humour, religion included, which is nice for a change!
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Gamercow on January 25, 2011, 07:46:56 PM
I liked this one, to a point.  I liked the descriptions, the characterizations, and the setting.  That said, I think it was stretched out too long, and may have worked better as a flash, or double-flash sized story. 

re: "Serious Man", I didn't get that movie either, but my kosher friend says that's because I'm "just not Jewish enough."
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Unblinking on January 26, 2011, 02:20:32 PM
re: "Serious Man", I didn't get that movie either, but my kosher friend says that's because I'm "just not Jewish enough."

Ha!  Apparently I'm Jewish enough, despite not being Jewish.  :)  I'm certain that I missed loads of inside jokes, but I still thought it was awesome.
Title: Re: PC134: Corinthians
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on March 21, 2011, 09:27:20 PM
Apropos of some of the ideas in this story, the blogger Jen McCreight (http://www.blaghag.com/) is doing a talk in Minnesota this week (3 times (http://www.blaghag.com/2011/03/upcoming-minnesota-speaking-schedule.html)!) titled "God's Lady Problem: Breaking up with abusive supernatural beings".

I wonder if she knows about this story...