Escape Artists

PodCastle => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Talia on January 11, 2011, 02:18:26 PM

Title: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Talia on January 11, 2011, 02:18:26 PM
PodCastle 139: To Follow the Waves (http://podcastle.org/2011/01/11/podcastle-139-to-follow-the-waves)

by Amal El-Mohtar. (http://tithenai.livejournal.com)

Read by Marguerite Croft. (http://albionidaho.livejournal.com)

Originally published in Steam-Powered: Lesbian Steampunk Stories.

Building a dream was as complex as building a temple, and required knowledge of almost as many trades—a fact reflected in the complexity of the braid-pattern in which Hessa wore her hair. Each pull and plait showed an intersection of gem-crafting, metal-working, architecture and storytelling, to say nothing of the thousand twisting strands representing the many kinds of knowledge necessary to a story’s success. As a child, Hessa had spent hours with the archivists in Al-Zahiriyya Library, learning from them the art of constructing memory palaces within her mind, layering the marble, glass, and mosaics of her imagination with reams of poetry, important historical dates, dozens of musical maqaamat, names of stars and ancestors. Hessa bint Aliyah bint Qamar bint Widad…

She learned to carry each name, note, number like a jewel to tuck into a drawer here, hang above a mirror there, for ease of finding later on. She knew whole geographies, scriptures, story cycles, as intimately as she knew her mother’s house, and drew on them whenever she received a commission. Though the only saleable part of her craft was the device she built with her hands, its true value lay in using the materials of her mind: she could not grind quartz to the shape and tune of her dream, could not set it into the copper coronet studded with amber, until she had fixed it into her thoughts as firmly as she fixed the stone to her amber dopstick.


Rated R.

Editors’ Note: Anyone interested in pre-ordering/purchasing Steam-Powered: Lesbian Steampunk Stories, please check out editor JoSelle Vanderhooft’s LJ. (http://upstart-crow.livejournal.com/440813.html) There’s also a Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Steam-Powered-Lesbian-Steampunk-Stories/130345443691388).

ETA: Updated the LJ link, which has some specific instructions on how to pre-order a copy of Steam-Powered: Lesbian Steampunk stories.


Latest Update: SteamPowered: Lesbian Steampunk Stories  (http://www.torquerebooks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3036) is now available! Go order it!
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: amalmohtar on January 11, 2011, 02:32:12 PM
I am claiming first comment in order to declare my adoration for this reading. Thank you so much, Marguerite! I'm not even all the way through it and it's making me teary to listen.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: kibitzer on January 11, 2011, 10:04:08 PM
That was simply beautiful. Amal's use of language is quite extraordinary; I love a story that makes me feel and this one certainly did. The sense of desire and longing was quite palpable. For me, it's one of those stories where I need to stop the mp3 player at the end of the story (before the outro), so its presence in my head is undisturbed for a while.

Wonderful.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Schreiber on January 11, 2011, 11:35:39 PM
I really love this story. The language, the arc, and Miss Croft's reading were entrancing and agonizing in turn. But what really struck me was the reveal that Hessa had pulled Nala -the real Nala- into her clients' dreams. While I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say the author was hitting the reader over the head with the metaphor, the tearful confrontation in the dream realm felt very meta to me. The question of what us scribblers are entitled to put our grubby little paws on isn't just academic and it definitely doesn't have to be dry or bloodless. The consequences of desire, the eroticism of power, the crushing sense of guilt that comes from telling a story the only way you know how to tell it no matter the cost...all that touches a nerve.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: ElectricPaladin on January 12, 2011, 06:22:39 AM
I really liked this one. It was smooth, sexy, and unique. I particularly enjoyed... damn, everything. My psychic landscape has been colonized and oppressed by Steampunk Damascus. We'll have to wait and see what comes of it.

My only vague critique is that I kind of found myself wanting the relationship to not work out. I don't know if it's my narrative sadism, some echo of homophobia that managed to survive the purges of '98 and '99 (rough years for my brain) ("go back to the shadow!"), or just plain contrariness, but I wanted Hessa's obsession to have lasting and painful consequences.

That said...

I also loved the ending. It was dark, sinister, hopeful, and just a little kinky, and basically satisfied my desire to have the best of intentions lead to complicated conclusions.

So, I guess there's just no pleasing some people, if by "some people" you mean "me." I would have liked the story differently, except I also liked it just the way it is. Jeez :-\. So, in my roundabout way it comes to this: the story was perfect because it got me coming and going, leaving me wanting everything and nothing. And that's really the point, isn't it? Some stories you read, other stories read you.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Unblinking on January 12, 2011, 03:21:29 PM
Neat ideas, but overall I didn't really like it.

I think it's a good idea to dispel the common misconception that all steampunk must be Victorian, but this story didn't do that for me because I would never have connected it with steampunk but for the intro and outro.  The stonework seemed like straight up fantasy to me.  *shrug* 

I liked the idea of the dream "songs" captured in stones, and other details of the stonework like "every stone can sing" and things like that.  But the first part with the stonework just seemed to go on too long even though I liked some of the details.  Then, once she constructs the amethyst dreamstone, the construction and dreaming and re-dreaming was analagous to masturbation (and her physical masturbation increased the connection for me)--mind you, I don't have anything against the character masturbating, but I guess I don't find reading about masturbation particularly riveting and so this went on pretty long for me.

The ending itself, with the other woman taken on as an apprentice and presumably a lover as well, struck me as pure wish fulfillment on the part of the character.  This was only reinforced by the protagonist saying in narration that she felt like it was probably part of a dream.  So to me, it seems much more likely that this is all part of a new masturbatory dream, crafted specifically to seem entirely real.  Granted she doesn't remember crafting this dream, but this selective forgetfulness could just be part of the dream parameters.  The ending was probably not meant to convey this, but that seems the most likely interpretation to me, and is well within the realm of possibility of the world as described.  Unfortunately, with the ending interpreted this way, nothing really happens in the story but the character finding new and exciting ways to masturbate.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Void Munashii on January 12, 2011, 03:57:24 PM
  A very pretty story set in an interesting enough world, but it just didn't do much for me. Perhaps part of my problem is that I have certain expectations of what steampunk is, and this did not really meet any of them. Of course this could be part of the point the author was trying to make; breaking those preconceived notions about what is and is not steampunk. If there had not been any mention of steampunk during the intro I would never have thought of this as being in that sub-genre. Even then I do not think the story would have worked for me.

  The story portrayed some really interesting ideas, but it did not really pull me in until right at the end when it became clear what was really happening. The idea that Hessa was inadvertently causing pain to the object of her affection as a result of her obsession with Nala was an interesting twist.

  As far as the masturbation goes: I'm just not a big fan of sex in science fiction or fantasy. I usually find myself at the very least being pulled out of the story, if not just completely squicked out, by it. I suppose it is appropriate to this story, but it still pushed me farther away from the tale.

  The reading was fantastic, and story is well written, but I clearly am not part of the target audience for this one.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Swamp on January 12, 2011, 05:03:52 PM
First off, I really liked the story.  It had beautiful language and flowed very naturally.  Given the subject matter, to say it was sensual seems a bit of a given, but what I mean is we have a real sense of what Hessa is feeling emotionally and physically.

I may have missed something at the beginning, but I'm not sure where the steampunk was in the story.  It's more than location.  I like the fact that steampunk doesn't have to take place in London.  But was there anything technology based about it?  I saw a lot of magical/metaphysical stuff with the dream making and the quartz.  Is that the anachronistic technology I am looking for?  Otherwise, it seemed pure fantasy to me, despite the anthology it came from.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Allie on January 12, 2011, 06:21:58 PM
A lesbian steampunk story by one of my favorite authors and read by my all time favorite narrator?
You had me from the intro!
Cheers to escape artists for having LGBT fiction stories when they are sadly lacking on the shelves (at least at my local library and barnes and noble :-\
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Scattercat on January 12, 2011, 07:27:50 PM
Absolutely lovely language, a story that resonates with the echoes of poetry.  I agree with basically everything ElectricPaladin said, actually, right down to not really wanting the relationship to work out and getting a satisfying sense of mixed outcomes from the ending.

I think this story speaks both to the creators, who must perforce put a little of themselves and thus their secrets into everything they make, and to the outcasts.  Lord knows I used to feel quite a lot of yearnings that I would never have dared to act on, though in my case the bars were social rather than simply being unable to find that chance stranger again.  It is a strange feeling, to know that you are thinking of someone who knows and cares nothing of you, and that moment when Nala confronts Hessa and there is that shock of, "OMG SHE KNOWS," that was a real gut-wrencher of a moment, exactly the sort of nightmare that would come from dwelling too long on an unattainable object of affection.  To think that such an eidolon would bring you to the notice of the one you idolize, and the inevitable anger and scorn that would follow... that's a dark place to go, it really is.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Mister Freign on January 12, 2011, 08:30:06 PM
I was very excited; I agreed so much with the author's statement of intent, and the story was fairly well written....

[brace for the but]

... so, all a work really needs in order to be steampunk is goggles?

Sigh.  I love fantasy; but, I look to steampunk varieties to provide that plausibility of mechanical cleverness, science / physics, intelligent and informed speculation on what might have been different in this world.

This story did not do it for me.  I beg the author to try again, because I really had high hopes for a vision of a Steampunk Syria.  I think it would have been truly fantastic - had it been completely believable.  This one suffered from too much magic.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: ElectricPaladin on January 12, 2011, 08:50:37 PM
I really don't want to get into the genre discussion, because I think such distinctions are usually artificial and the ensuing discussions are stupid, but here are my 2 piastres:

For me, Steampunk is any story that combines anachronistic technological, cultural, and design elements with technology that achieves supernatural or sem-supernatural feats. Blatant magic (and semi-magic, like psychic powers or theurgy) may or may not be present. Steampunk is also a purely visual style - remember that Steampunk started as an outgrowth of Goth subculture and was originally purely a costume style and a set of "Victorian" affectations - and can present itself as such. So yes, sometimes all it needs is goggles to be Steampunk.

To respond to Mister Freign, I don't think that Steampunk has anything to do with plausibility. Space 1889? Girl Genius? "Laputa: Castle in the Sky"? Boilerplate? "Steamboy"? These are not works of fiction and rpg design that dwelled much on plausibility. I think you're talking about science fiction, which - while overlapping with Steampunk - in my mind remains its own genre.

I believe that To Follow the Waves is Steampunk. It combines:

So, yes, this is Steampunk. I can't imagine how it could be anything else.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: DKT on January 12, 2011, 11:10:58 PM
This one suffered from too much magic.

I could be wrong, but I think this is the first time PodCastle's been criticized for a story involving too much magic ;D
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Schreiber on January 12, 2011, 11:22:43 PM
I could be wrong, but I think this is the first time PodCastle's been criticized for a story involving too much magic ;D

Fantasy is what we point our wands at when we say it?
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: DKT on January 13, 2011, 12:21:02 AM
Hey all - I've updated the original post and the PC page with some more information on how to order a copy of Steam-Powered: Lesbian Steampunk Stories. In short, go here (http://upstart-crow.livejournal.com/440813.html)!
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Void Munashii on January 13, 2011, 01:12:07 AM

To respond to Mister Freign, I don't think that Steampunk has anything to do with plausibility. Space 1889? Girl Genius? "Laputa: Castle in the Sky"? Boilerplate? "Steamboy"?

  Wait, you're saying that "Steamboy" isn't plausible? Well that's five years of work on a steam-powered robot armour down the tubes.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: ElectricPaladin on January 13, 2011, 02:56:17 AM

To respond to Mister Freign, I don't think that Steampunk has anything to do with plausibility. Space 1889? Girl Genius? "Laputa: Castle in the Sky"? Boilerplate? "Steamboy"?

  Wait, you're saying that "Steamboy" isn't plausible? Well that's five years of work on a steam-powered robot armour down the tubes.

Don't let me get in your way. You could always prove me wrong.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: danooli on January 13, 2011, 11:53:48 AM
I liked this one.  I didn't love it, because I didn't like the character of the woman with the hair whose name I never quite understood...she was mean and I don't think she would make a good apprentice. But, I did like it a lot.

I really loved the idea of dream casting.  when i was younger, i would lie in bed while trying to fall asleep and try to craft the dreams I would have that night.  It never worked, as far as I can remember, but I tried nonetheless.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: HomespunDreamer on January 13, 2011, 07:28:14 PM
Amal El-Mohtar is a genious. I've absolutely loved both her stories on PodCastle. The hair in this one fascinates me. I love intricate braids, and wish I could see those that she keeps referencing. The long free hair, and the mystery associated also enchants me. And that mystery is left open... I'm going to be wondering about this for a while :)
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Rain on January 13, 2011, 08:40:19 PM
I thought the story was kinda meh, it had some interesting elements with the dreamstone and i would have liked to hear more of that, i didnt really care for the romance/sex bit, as for the two womens relationship, the story ended with Nala threatening Hessa, and promising to torture her, i dont really see anything positive happening from that.

I have to agree with some of the others, there was nothing Steampunk to this story. Steampunk is about Victorian england, gadgets, gears, gigant analytical machines, steam engines and the like, a Steampunk story doesnt have to contain all of that, but of there are none of those elements in a story and it also features magic then its not Steampunk, but simply fantasy.

It may sound like nickpicking, but i just think its a very specific sub genre of science fiction, it is a style and a feel, it isnt enough to just put on some victorian clothes and add gears.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: ElectricPaladin on January 13, 2011, 08:49:01 PM
I thought the story was kinda meh, it had some interesting elements with the dreamstone and i would have liked to hear more of that, i didnt really care for the romance/sex bit, as for the two womens relationship, the story ended with Nala threatening Hessa, and promising to torture her, i dont really see anything positive happening from that.

There's torture and then there's torture, ifyouknowwhatI'msayin ;) ;) ;).
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Talia on January 14, 2011, 04:11:33 AM
I wasn't going to comment yet but I can't resist.. I kinda feel this is more an interpretation of steampunk, as seen from a very different environment (that's not intended as a criticism). What's distinctly there that I draw a clear connection to is the "maker" element. The actual physical craft of what Hessa was practicing was well described, and to me echoed the tinkering inherent in steampunk (automaton, gadgetry, etc). It's like the author took the physical form of the genre and poured in a healthy dose of mysticism.

I really really enjoyed this one. The language was obviously lovely, but I think it was the end that cinched the deal for me. The.. relationship between Nala and Hessa that turned out to be not a romance so much as.. something complicated stemming from an unintentional violation. I enjoyed that complexity. I hadn't expected it I suppose.

I didn't miss the hint of kink, either.  I thought it was well placed (and it made me happy for Hessa :P).
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Unblinking on January 14, 2011, 02:32:50 PM
I thought the story was kinda meh, it had some interesting elements with the dreamstone and i would have liked to hear more of that, i didnt really care for the romance/sex bit, as for the two womens relationship, the story ended with Nala threatening Hessa, and promising to torture her, i dont really see anything positive happening from that.

There's torture and then there's torture, ifyouknowwhatI'msayin ;) ;) ;).

I think Nala said that she would learn to do the craft well enough that she could do the same things to Hessa that were done to her.  But since Hessa was a willing participant, I'd hardly call that torture.  There would be a loss of control that might be scary, but I got more of a bondage sex sort of vibe from that, not straight up torture.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: ElectricPaladin on January 14, 2011, 02:40:10 PM
I thought the story was kinda meh, it had some interesting elements with the dreamstone and i would have liked to hear more of that, i didnt really care for the romance/sex bit, as for the two womens relationship, the story ended with Nala threatening Hessa, and promising to torture her, i dont really see anything positive happening from that.

There's torture and then there's torture, ifyouknowwhatI'msayin ;) ;) ;).

I think Nala said that she would learn to do the craft well enough that she could do the same things to Hessa that were done to her.  But since Hessa was a willing participant, I'd hardly call that torture.  There would be a loss of control that might be scary, but I got more of a bondage sex sort of vibe from that, not straight up torture.

I know that and you know that, but I'm not sure Rain knows that :P.

But seriously, yes I definitely see more of a bondage/humiliation angle than a pain and torture S&M angle in Nala's promise. And it sounds from Hessa's reactions that they're both going to enjoy it. I don't think a BDSM-containing relationship founded in a genuine desire to actually punish someone for something they did in real life has much of a chance of developing into a healthy relationship... but I cut Hessa some slack. This is her first girlfriend (not made clear, but kind of implied by her absolute ineptness and sense of shame and surprise at her feelings). After she eventually kicks Nala to the curb for her sadism/inability to forgive, she'll settle down with a nice girl :).
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on January 14, 2011, 06:07:28 PM
After she eventually kicks Nala to the curb for her sadism/inability to forgive, she'll settle down with a nice girl :).

I didn't get that vibe from Nala at all.  She said she would forgive, just not unconditionally (and, given the circumstances, wanting some kind of restitution is not unreasonable).  I also don't think she's sadistic, except maybe in a playful way - she just wants Hessa to understand what Nala herself went through.

However, Nala may or may not understand that in order to do that, she may have to obsess as much over Hessa as Hessa did over Nala.  I got the impression that Hessa didn't so much try to construct Nala into the dreams (except the ones she did for herself, of course) so much as allow it happen as a natural consequence of having Nala in the forefront of her thoughts.

Because of the difference in the way Nala will be approaching this - with the originally-unexpected result as a goal rather than a by-product - the result will almost certainly be different, too.

The result will also be affected by the fact that Nala's feelings toward Hessa are very different from Hessa's for Nala.  Not only that, but by the time Nala is proficient enough at the craft to be able to add Hessa to the dreams, the relationship between the two will have evolved into something different - maybe love, maybe something else.

Oh, yes, there are levels and levels here and nothing is perfectly predictable.  Nicely done, Ms. El-Mohtar!
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Unblinking on January 17, 2011, 03:00:18 PM
After she eventually kicks Nala to the curb for her sadism/inability to forgive, she'll settle down with a nice girl :).

I didn't get that vibe from Nala at all.  She said she would forgive, just not unconditionally (and, given the circumstances, wanting some kind of restitution is not unreasonable).  I also don't think she's sadistic, except maybe in a playful way - she just wants Hessa to understand what Nala herself went through.

I tend to agree, that I don't think Nala's sadistic.  Or rather, Hessa's dream-figment is not sadistic, because I still think that last part is more likely to be a dream.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Chuk on January 18, 2011, 05:41:40 PM
Very nice story, excellent use of imagery. I'm on the "not steampunk" side, or at least the "not really steampunk". Seems more like a fantasy, Castle Falkenstein kind of 19th century magic setting. I guess there are goggles and airships, but most of the story is about the magical dream gems.

I really liked the setup and the prose. I think Hessa got off too easy, though -- Nala should have stayed far away from her after that. Still, at least Nala didn't just fall into her arms. I'd like to see what happens with them later, and that's a good thing to come away from a story with.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: iamafish on January 19, 2011, 08:25:52 AM
It didn't really occur to me that this wasn't really steampunk until reading these forums, but now that I think about it, it doesn't really fit with steampunk, there were just a few nods in the direction of the sub-genre.

However genre is just a label and I don't see why people get so fussy about it. A story is a story, genres are just the filing system.

So the story itself: I really liked this one. I love a good story about a well meaning protagonist who screws up massively through naivety and lack of understanding. I think we really feel sorry for Hessa, as well as Nala, when it's revealed what happened. I could really identify with Hessa's obsession with Nala, because it's something I've found myself doing in the past - constructing elaborate fantasies about people I see, but have never worked up the nerve to talk to - thankfully I'm slightly more emotionally balanced now.

My main criticism of this story was that it dragged a little at the start and was hard to get into. I found it hard to work out what was going on and the flashbacks didn't really help too much. Once I got into the story I was sold, but it too a while to get into.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: DKT on January 19, 2011, 05:07:32 PM
Hrm. I'm not sure whether or not to start a different discussion or not about what is steampunk, but since the discussion on this story has been so good, I'll give it a go in this thread.

For me, this story qualifies as steampunk because it takes place when Victorian England is definitely having their steampunk-age, but instead of taking place in the setting we've become so accustomed to seeing in steampunk stories, it takes place in the Middle East. Traditional steampunk-ish stuff is happening off in the distance - we see traces of it from the outside, and it affects our characters. So for me, this is steampunk from a different perspective, and thus, I'm happy to also label it steampunk. Although, sure. I'd label it fantasy, too. (I like stories with lots of labels.)

And I could do with more steampunk fantasy in my life :)
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: amalmohtar on January 20, 2011, 12:02:08 AM
Hey guys! Thank you so much for your thoughts; I can't stress enough how fantastic it is to get to see people discussing a story of mine.

I'd like to address a few things I found particularly interesting:

- Schreiber: oh man. Reading your comment was like unwrapping a gift. That aspect of the story took me COMPLETELY BY SURPRISE, and I only realised what was happening midway through the exchange, when I thought, "....wait, what am I writing about here? This is -- is it allegory? WHAT IS IT ALLEGORY FOR? I AM WRITING FICTION! I -- oh. Yes. Okay. Allegory for writing fiction? Let's go with that."

I didn't MEAN for it to be, but there it was, and now I'm writing meta about the meta, so, er. Will stop. 

- steampunk vs. fantasy: I see steampunk as a subgenre of fantasy, so the two aren't mutually exclusive to me. But I've seen a few people comment on how this story isn't steampunk because it has magic instead of tech and lacks Victoriana. To which I say: expanding the subgenre into diversity means first recognising the elements that exclude the possibility of diversity. I actually spent a slightly disproportionate amount of time researching crystals and how there might be a technologically plausible basis for what I wanted to do in the story -- but I opted to communicate that which I wanted to do in a register of language I felt was appropriate to someone who isn't a scientist or engineer, let alone a scientist or engineer from the West. Salma, Hessa's teacher, has worked with stones all her life, and stumbled upon this property; this is the way in which she knows how to teach what she's learned.

Fun fact #1: I almost wrote a scene between Hessa and her mother, where her mother -- cool-eyed mathematician par excellence that she is -- is basically debunking the way Salma talks about dream-crafting, by saying "you do realise that what she calls 'songs' are electrical impulses, and that when you're 'teaching songs to the stone' what you're actually doing is [insert complex half-invented techno-babble here]?" To which Hessa would reply, shrugging, "so? It works. And I speak to Hessa in her language, as she speaks to her stones in theirs."

But I didn't write that scene because that wasn't the story I was supposed to be telling, and my explanation of how the dream-crafting works was getting to be too long already. >.> But the point is that dream-crafting is supposed to be a craft, a matter of programming -- and while we're on the subject, you're reading these words by means of knowledge contained inside SAND and METAL, you know? Insert quotes about sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic, etc. Further to which, if a fob-watch bearing gentleman in a waistcoat and top-hat had descended upon Damascus by airship and marvelled at the crystal-technology that allowed the Damascene to manipulate dreams by means of rigorously controlling the oscillation-chambers of quartz through gem-cutting -- would THAT be Steampunk? Please don't say yes if you think the story on its own isn't, because, well, that'd be disturbing to me, that you can't get Steampunk without a British Victorian gaze.

Fun fact #2: Did you guys know that the Greek word "elektron" actually means AMBER? That the first experiments with static electricity were done by rubbing amber? That totally blew my mind, and is the reason the copper coronets that hold the quartz are studded with amber.

Last, the relationship with Nahla. I have to break this down into a few things:

- The scene of the confrontation isn't actually occurring in a dream; it's happening for real, in Hessa's workshop. 
- ElectricPaladin expressed a preference for the relationship to NOT work out, and I am here to say, that relationship is HARD, and I was not by any means trying to broadcast a "happy ever after" type ending. Nahla's been violated, Hessa is devastated to have inadvertantly violated someone; Nahla is revolting against an imbalance of power, and Hessa didn't even know she HAD power. What I tried to do with the ending, with the last line, is show that there's hope for them -- that when Nahla makes the same rookie mistake Hessa made when she was starting out, she's showing they have something in common, some place from which to begin.
- Nahla is not a nice person.
- Nahla will totally be getting her own story somewhere down the line (in fact I itch to write it RIGHT NOW but, sigh, thesis, whatcha gonna do)

Again, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts about this story! It means so much to me, and I really hope that regardless of what you thought of it that you consider picking up the anthology, because wow. It is full of absolutely gorgeous and amazing stuff!
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: washer on January 20, 2011, 05:03:05 PM
This is one of the best pieces of fantasy short fiction I've ever heard/read.  I rarely give the stories I hear here a second listen cuz I've got too many in the hopper, but this one certainly warrants another listen through.  There was such vivid imagery, such a well-imagined world, and such raw emotion.  I feel like we've all obsessed over someone that hard in our lives, and the aching and longing is so well described here it almost dredges it all back up again.  Hats off to an awesome story and an awesome reading - if I can manage to proselytize Podcastle to any of my friends, this shall be the story I direct them to.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Unblinking on January 20, 2011, 06:29:33 PM
I'm glad you stopped by Amal!  :)  Always good to chat with the author.

Regarding whether it's steampunk, I wouldn't have even mentioned it if the intro hadn't been based so heavily on this being a steampunk story.  Whatever the general definition is, to me steampunk is historical fiction based around anachronistic technology.  Yes, there was anachronistic tech here (like the automaton cook) but the core idea with the dreams written in stones seemed entirely fantastical to me, though it may be based in real science at its core.  But, clearly other people see the separation differently than I do, since the story ran in a steampunk antho, and was described as steampunk by yourself and in the intro.  I don't see that difference of opinion as a big deal, but yup I still see it as fantasy.

Quote
- The scene of the confrontation isn't actually occurring in a dream; it's happening for real, in Hessa's workshop. 

I'm not surprised that that was your intent.  However, I think the other interpretation is equally valid from the text alone, and to me it makes more sense, so it's the one that's the spaghetti noodle that sticks to the wall for me. Again, I don't really see the difference of opinion as a big deal, but if a story has two interpretations that can be drawn from the text alone, I don't see either as being wrong, whatever the author intent.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: amalmohtar on January 20, 2011, 07:54:43 PM
Unblinking: I'm glad you're glad! It's hard to know what's appropriate, as author -- it's such a treat to see discussion happening that I totally want to take part, but my DON'T RESPOND TO REVIEWS instinct kicks in, and the line between discussion and review is drawn in the sand, I think. So I want to be totally clear that I'm not trying to be proscriptive in any of this -- just to kind of offer something along the lines of DVD commentary, I guess?

About the confrontation scene -- I actually love the idea that the way it's written could sustain your interpretation! I only felt the need to clarify because I wondered if it was one of those things where reading it might be clearer than listening to it. The passage goes like this:

She put the circlet aside and rose to dress herself. She would try to understand it later that night. It would be her final one; she would ask another question, and see what tricks her mind played on her then.

But there would be no third night.

That afternoon, as Hessa opened her door to step out for an early dinner at Qahwat al Adraj, firm hands grasped her by the shoulders and shoved her back inside. Before she could protest or grasp what was happening, her braidless woman stood before her, so radiant with fury that Hessa could hardly speak for the pain it brought her.


May I ask why you see it as a dream, or what prompts you to read it that way? I'm curious! :)
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Scattercat on January 20, 2011, 08:33:03 PM
What would make for a better dream than one that convinces you it's not a dream?  To add in the detail of setting aside the circlet would frame the ensuing events as "real."  She never actually says that the final confrontation is not a dream; we, the readers, infer it from her actions, and that then means that the possibility is there. 

Plus, every dream-based story from "Nightmare on Elm Street" to "Inception" seems unable to resist the "But was *everything* a dream" schtick, and it's kind of gotten ingrained in the collective unconscious.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Unblinking on January 20, 2011, 08:49:56 PM
Unblinking: I'm glad you're glad! It's hard to know what's appropriate, as author -- it's such a treat to see discussion happening that I totally want to take part, but my DON'T RESPOND TO REVIEWS instinct kicks in, and the line between discussion and review is drawn in the sand, I think. So I want to be totally clear that I'm not trying to be proscriptive in any of this -- just to kind of offer something along the lines of DVD commentary, I guess?

That's always a difficult line to decide where to draw.  The most common advice seems to be to never read reviews, and there's something to be said for that.  Part of that is because some reviewers just try to be snarky for the sake of snark, working with the beginning assumption that the work sucks and trying to find the most entertaining way to say why.  The main reason I stick around here is that the discussion as a whole is allowed to go either way but is based on the discussion of merits or flaws in the story itself.  I am neither expected to love, nor to hate any particular story, and I feel comfortable saying what I liked and what I didn't, and hearing where other people agreed and didn't.

I like when authors stop by (and most people around here seem to), as long as they don't try to start flame wars with people who didn't like it (which you haven't).  In particular, I like to hear:
1.  What the author meant to convey.
2.  Where the idea for the story originally sparked from.


May I ask why you see it as a dream, or what prompts you to read it that way? I'm curious! :)

I'm happy to explain.  :)  The biggest factor is the fact that the protagonist can craft dreams, even dreams for herself.  She is in the business of making the dreams seem lifelike, otherwise she wouldn't be so popular.  So because of that particular choice of speculative element, the possibility of some of the events being part of a dream was always kept in mind.

Beyond that, what really triggered me to think that that particular portion of the story was a dream was the combination of:
a.  It seemed to end a bit too conveniently with the previously unseen Nala returning Hessa's sexual attraction.
b.  It didn't seem to say how Nala could have even found Hessa.
c.  She says herself that this sort of side effect is impossible.
d.  She wonders herself if it is a dream.
e.  Much of the story of escalating masturbation, so it fits the trend for this to be the next step.

It might be unclear what I mean by escalating masturbation.  I see four steps in that escalation:
1.  Her actual manual masturbation mentioned in the story, done the good old fashioned way.

2.  The extension of her Nala fantasy into dreams made for others.  This is an escalation because she's including other people in her fantasy by making them have her fantasy by proxy.  She's rewarded not only for her pleasure in the manual masturbation, and the creation of the dreams, but also financially from her sudden success, and in artistic achievement knowing that her work is wanted, as well as the power to choose which customers she wishes to take.

3.  The amethyst dream made for herself.  This is an escalation because she's making the dream permanent and relivable and tuned to her own exact desires instead of fitting them to someone else's.  But after some period of time this turns out to be ultimately unsatisfying, because she is too aware that is only a dream.  This is evidenced by the fact that she doesn't ask for Nala's name--which she admits she would do in real life but to dream a false name and a false voice would clash with the possible reality.

4.  The last segment, the new dream in which she convinces herself that Nala has actually come to her.  The 3rd escalation proved unsatisfying because she is too aware that it is pure masturbation with no other party involved.  The absolute control which she once enjoyed has become dull to her from repitition.  So she crafts a new stone, inventing a new permutation in which Nala shows up at her shop.  She puts Nala in control because her own absolute control has grown uninteresting.  She invents her own crime of imposing her fantasy on others to justify the bondage.  At the same time, she knows she'll gain intellectual pleasure from gaining an apprentice to teach her craft to.  In the 3rd escalation, she'd neglected to give her a voice or a name, but here she explicitly does both because her voicelessness and nameless were what made it so obviously a masturbation fantasy.  She even gave her a voice that isn't the silky voice she imagines she would imagine because that juxtaposition enhances the apparent truth of it "I wouldn't have given her that vioce, therefore it must be real".  She knows herself well enough that she predicts her own argument and uses it to make the dream more convincing, allowing herself for the first time to believe within the space of the dream that this is REALLY happening, and not just another form of self-pleasure.


Anyway, I'm interested if you have any response to this justification and alternate interpretation.  :)
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: DKT on January 20, 2011, 09:43:04 PM
3.  The amethyst dream made for herself.  This is an escalation because she's making the dream permanent and relivable and tuned to her own exact desires instead of fitting them to someone else's.  But after some period of time this turns out to be ultimately unsatisfying, because she is too aware that is only a dream.  This is evidenced by the fact that she doesn't ask for Nala's name--which she admits she would do in real life but to dream a false name and a false voice would clash with the possible reality.

I'm confused as to what you're basing "this turns out to be ulitmately unsatisfying" on? I don't see anything in the text that suggests Hessa was anything but satisfied by the dream fantasies she created.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: amalmohtar on January 20, 2011, 09:46:05 PM
That is TOTALLY FASCINATING!

All of that makes sense to me, except that if the bulk of the interpretation rests on it being an amethyst-dream, that's where my intent and your reading diverge, I think. Hessa considers the amethyst as a material, but then puts it aside in favour of clear quartz:

She hesitated over the choice of stone; a dream crafted in white quartz could last for up to three uses, depending on the clarity of the crystal and the time she took in grinding it. But a dream crafted in amethyst could last indefinitely—could belong to her forever, as long as she wanted it, renewing itself to the rhythm of her thoughts, modulating its song to harmonise with her dream-desires. She had only ever crafted two dreams in amethyst, a matched set to be given as a wedding gift, and the sum she commanded for the task had financed a year's worth of materials and bought her a new lathe.

Reluctantly, she chose the white quartz. Three nights, that was all she would allow herself; three nights for a week's careful, loving labour, and perhaps then this obsession would burn itself out, would leave her sated. Three nights, and then no more.


I'd meant to set this up as an extension of Hessa's guilt at using images of Nahla in the first place -- and that the guilt was based in an instinct for something about all this being wrong. Also, I admit, because I was kind of thinking aloud about how different kinds of quartz might resonate, and that the genesis of this idea began with the very commodified idea of the dream-coronet, that could last for one use or three or indefinitely, on a rising payscale, and want to play more in this world in other stories.

But I kind of see now how, in a BRAZIL-esque re-imagining, that could be the moment where the narrative becomes dream; where she crafts a dream of herself crafting a dream, but makes it in amethyst instead of quartz, hence the whole rest of it is unreal. There's nothing to indicate that, per se -- by which I mean if that had been my intention, I'd think this were sloppy execution -- but I can see what you mean, and it's really cool to see such a different reading!
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Unblinking on January 20, 2011, 10:01:18 PM
3.  The amethyst dream made for herself.  This is an escalation because she's making the dream permanent and relivable and tuned to her own exact desires instead of fitting them to someone else's.  But after some period of time this turns out to be ultimately unsatisfying, because she is too aware that is only a dream.  This is evidenced by the fact that she doesn't ask for Nala's name--which she admits she would do in real life but to dream a false name and a false voice would clash with the possible reality.

I'm confused as to what you're basing "this turns out to be ulitmately unsatisfying" on? I don't see anything in the text that suggests Hessa was anything but satisfied by the dream fantasies she created.

You're correct that this wasn't stated in the story, but I inferred it as her justification for escalating the fantasy.  The final dream is written in a way that blocks her from remembering that dissatisfaction in the same way that she has blocked her memory of making the dream itself.  It's a motive she'd hidden from herself because then she would see her own hand in the craftsmanship and ruin the fantasy.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Unblinking on January 20, 2011, 10:15:40 PM
Reluctantly, she chose the white quartz. Three nights, that was all she would allow herself; three nights for a week's careful, loving labour, and perhaps then this obsession would burn itself out, would leave her sated. Three nights, and then no more.

Apparently I'd missed the detail of her choosing the white quartz over the amethyst.  My mistake on that one. But I think it still works if, as you suggested, that choice was the branching point of reality and dream.

Quote
There's nothing to indicate that, per se -- by which I mean if that had been my intention, I'd think this were sloppy execution -- but I can see what you mean, and it's really cool to see such a different reading!

I wouldn't call it a sloppy execution, even if this interpretation had been your intent, but a testament to Hessa's craftmanship.  If there were huge clues to indicate this meaning, then it would mean that the clues would've been caused by sloppy dream craftsmanship on Hessa's part, and if Hessa didn't pick up on those clues herself, then THAT would be more indicative of sloppy writing execution (as in, the author suppressing Hessa's otherwise certain realization for the sake of the ending).  The dream HAS to be quite convincing to most readers, otherwise how could I believe it was crafted by a master?  In fact it was so convincing that it even convinced the author of the story that the last part wasn't a dream.  "Wow, Hessa's good at what she does!" I say, as I read between the lines between the lines between the lines and I spiral into the depths of silliness.

Anyway, I'm glad you've enjoyed my unforeseen interpretation.  I'll admit that I was a little bit worried that you would see a description of "escalating masturbation" as an insult, so I'm glad that you haven't taken offense where none was meant. This is the sort of author conversation I most enjoy.  :)
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on January 20, 2011, 11:21:05 PM
How does any of us know that this whole discussion isn't a mad fever dream of Dave's, after all?  ;)
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: ElectricPaladin on January 20, 2011, 11:57:13 PM
How does any of us know that this whole discussion isn't a mad fever dream of Dave's, after all?  ;)

Am I a man dreaming I'm a bowling ball or a butterfly dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi?
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: amalmohtar on January 21, 2011, 12:24:24 AM
Washer: Thank you so much! :) I'm so happy you enjoyed it, especially enough for a second listen.

Unblinking: I wrote the story before Inception came out, but am now lamenting the lack of a final piece of quartz falling to the ground and spinning, spinning, spinn--*cough*

Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Unblinking on January 21, 2011, 02:27:31 PM
How does any of us know that this whole discussion isn't a mad fever dream of Dave's, after all?  ;)

I did pick up a weird stone at the pawn shop before I slept, and my hand was touching it as I fell asleep, so that makes total sense!
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: stePH on January 21, 2011, 06:40:14 PM
I think it's a good idea to dispel the common misconception that all steampunk must be Victorian, but this story didn't do that for me because I would never have connected it with steampunk but for the intro and outro.  The stonework seemed like straight up fantasy to me.  *shrug* 

This, +1
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: yicheng on January 21, 2011, 08:02:31 PM
I generally liked the story.  I was a bit confused at first about the connection between stones and dreams, and how exactly that worked.  I thought the characters we well-written, and I enjoyed the small world-building details like braids used to denote one's social status.  The ending managed to be both anti-climactic and abrupt, though I'm not sure how it should have been resolved, but it didn't feel the end of a story as much as the start of a novel.

I generally don't like labels, but I was really confused by the "Steampunk" label.  Don't you have to have, well, Steam (clockwork, gears, etc) for it to be called Steampunk?  

As an aside, I wholly agree that Steampunk should be international.  I've thought for a long time about how cool a Steampunk story set during the 1800's Chinese Boxer Rebellion would be, and there are at least 1 or 2 Steampunk stories that I've read set in during the Japanese Meiji Restoration.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: tinygaia on January 22, 2011, 01:17:52 AM
Even without the gears, this story still felt like steampunk to me, primarily because I’ve always enjoyed Victorian literature. The fantasy and adventure stories from back then center around fascinating people, elaborate cities, and an age of exploration and scientific discovery - stories that make you realize the spices in your kitchen are exotic and wonderful and we just take those things for granted these days. It’s about the language and the attitude of the story, which I felt Amal hit spot-on. I love that steampunk is popular right now because it puts me in touch with more beautiful world-building like this. Yeah, robots are a plus, but if it doesn’t evoke those feelings, no amount of clockwork automatons will make it a good story for me.

Also, speaking as a life-long rock collector, the idea that stones played such is central role in this story made me happy.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: amalmohtar on January 22, 2011, 02:30:13 PM
Two things of note:

1) When I opened up the forum, this topic had had 666 views. DUN DUN DUNNNN.

2) To anyone who's wondering why my alleged steampunk story doesn't feature steamworks: I wrote my thoughts on that for Tor.com during their Steampunk Fortnight, in an articled called "Towards a Steampunk without Steam (http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/10/towards-a-steampunk-without-steam)," in case you're interested. Believe me, the absence of steam in my story prompted a lot of soul-searching about genre labels.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: stePH on January 22, 2011, 04:00:20 PM
2) To anyone who's wondering why my alleged steampunk story doesn't feature steamworks: I wrote my thoughts on that for Tor.com during their Steampunk Fortnight, in an articled called "Towards a Steampunk without Steam (http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/10/towards-a-steampunk-without-steam)," in case you're interested. Believe me, the absence of steam in my story prompted a lot of soul-searching about genre labels.

Hey, Phil Foglio doesn't even like to call Girl Genius "steampunk" when it clearly fits into the genre.
...and I forgot what point I was trying to make by mentioning that.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Mister Freign on January 22, 2011, 11:26:52 PM
I basically agree with Rain; I was hoping for a scholarly thing in which Syria circa Victorian times was explored; it could have been set on another planet and lacked the author's expressed aspiration to present a steampunk story, and it would have slipped under my radar completely.

I also agree with the respondent that criticizes the invoking of genre altogether when critiquing a piece - just... not in this case.   :)
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Gorbash on January 25, 2011, 09:38:28 AM
I have little to offer that hasn't been said already, but I was utterly entranced by this story - the vividness of the imagery, the subtle use of language, the complexity of Hessa's relationship, and the perfectly matched reading by Marguerite Croft.

For what it's worth, I heard this as straight fantasy with a nod towards the trappings of steampunk.  Steampunk is a genre which has left me somewhat cold in the past (although the imagery can be pretty), but if it can encompass stories like this I may need to revisit that opinion.  I look forward to reading "Towards a Steampunk without Steam", and thinking more about it.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: eytanz on January 26, 2011, 04:48:02 PM
Ok, so I'm coming late to this one and there is a *lot* of fanscinating stuff in this thread already. Let me start by saying the important bit: I loved this one. Brilliantly written, and after a shaky 4-5 minutes as the narrator got into the pacing, beautifully read. I love Amal Al Mohtar's writing, and this story was no exception.

I found Dave's intro and outro a bit unintentionally hilarious in the sense that it felt like he was trying to win a bet that he can say the word "steampunk" as many times as possible.

That said, I always though that steampunk is a geopolitically defined sub-genre - that it's not about a time period, and it is not about a technology, but that it's about alternate British Empires in Victorian days. Asking "why isn't steampunk more diverse" is the same asking "why aren't there more Westerns set in medieval France" or "why are there so few Icelandic sagas that feature African Americans". I guess I have no problem with calling this story steampunk, but I wonder why there is a need for that - is there anything inherently wrong about defining a sub-genre in such a narrow way? I guess I don't see the value of encouraging diversity *within* a sub-genre, when it can just as easily (and more profitably) be encouraged by allowing for a diversity of sub-genres (or, in other words, why do stories about the 19the century Middle East have to sit under a label created for stories about English people? Don't they deserve a label of their own?)
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: stePH on January 26, 2011, 05:35:27 PM
...(or, in other words, why do stories about the 19the century Middle East have to sit under a label created for stories about English people? Don't they deserve a label of their own?)

"Gempunk"?  :P
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on January 26, 2011, 08:14:28 PM
... there is a *lot* of fanscinating stuff in this thread already.

If that wasn't a deliberate pun, it should have been. :)
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: amalmohtar on January 26, 2011, 10:11:03 PM
Eytanz: Thanks so much for the kind words! You ask a really great question, and this is my take:

I think "Western" and "Icelandic Saga" are geopolitically bounded in ways that "Steampunk" is not. "Steampunk" is already riffing on "Cyberpunk," which is not, so far as I'm aware, particularly localised. But your question about why we ought to bother expanding genre labels instead of creating new labels really interests me.

I think there's as much interest in diversifying Steampunk as there is because it's very, very easy to let those reconstructions of British Empire be racist, classist, imperialist nostalgia. That's problematic for someone who, like myself, would really like to enjoy the awesome airships and fascinating technology and pretty gears and stuff without seeing myself in the Exotic Oriental Girl Who Is a Plot Point. When so much of a genre becomes indulgence of colonial pipe dreams, I think it behooves us to write against it and reclaim it. In fact, I think there's an increasing tradition of Steampunky Westerns where Aboriginal people can rewrite their histories in such a way as to engage with the crappy representation they've dealt with in Westerns for years. This is a pretty great article on the subject from one woman's perspective: http://beyondvictoriana.com/2010/11/21/beyond-victoriana-50-overcoming-the-noble-savage-and-the-sexy-squaw-native-steampunk-monique-poirier/

I recommend Beyond Victoriana for just about anything touching on this subject, really. Ay-Leen is far more eloquent than I can hope to be in a poorly thought-through forum post. :) http://beyondvictoriana.com/about/

Also, where the 19th Century Middle-East is concerned? It helps to write against a genre from the inside, I think, when representations of Arabs and the Middle-East are as dire as they are right now. That label for stories about English people has too frequently featured the Middle-East of the 19th Century, appropriating its stories and people for its own ends -- so I think there's important work to be done in reversing those representations before acquiring a label of their own.

Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: amalmohtar on January 26, 2011, 10:17:08 PM


"Gempunk"?  :P
[/quote]


AHAHAH! Oh man, if I wrote something popular enough to breed a new "-punk," I don't know WHAT I'd do. Beam fit to draw sunflowers, I guess.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: eytanz on January 26, 2011, 10:57:00 PM
Eytanz: Thanks so much for the kind words! You ask a really great question, and this is my take:

I think "Western" and "Icelandic Saga" are geopolitically bounded in ways that "Steampunk" is not. "Steampunk" is already riffing on "Cyberpunk," which is not, so far as I'm aware, particularly localised. But your question about why we ought to bother expanding genre labels instead of creating new labels really interests me.

I think there's as much interest in diversifying Steampunk as there is because it's very, very easy to let those reconstructions of British Empire be racist, classist, imperialist nostalgia. That's problematic for someone who, like myself, would really like to enjoy the awesome airships and fascinating technology and pretty gears and stuff without seeing myself in the Exotic Oriental Girl Who Is a Plot Point. When so much of a genre becomes indulgence of colonial pipe dreams, I think it behooves us to write against it and reclaim it.

I entirely agree with your sentiment here. But I'm not sure that expanding the genre label is the right way to address this concern. Victorian England is interesting precisely because, to quote the mission statement of Beyond Victoriana (which I read following your link, and now I'm quite excited about reading more from that site) - "[it] was a time of intellectual achievement, innovation, and geopolitcal expansion. At the same time, that greatness came at the expense of slavery, oppression, social inequality, and racism." Stories that romanticize this period, either by ignoring the downside, or worse, by embracing the inequality inherent to it, are problematic. But the way to address that seems to me to be to write stories that acknowledge and tackle head-on this dichotomy. There's a lot that can be done in stories *about* Victorian England. To fix Steampunk, the focus should be shifted not outwards, but rather inwards, towards the parts of the English Empire that are not as easy to adore.

Which isn't to say that I think stories shouldn't be written about non-England settings. Of course they should - and I very much want to read them. And those stories, hopefully, can help people see beyond the stereotypes and propoganda. But if I were to choose, I wouldn't want to see steampunk be more diverse - I would like to see steampunk fit comfortably as one part of a diverse speculative literature.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: kibitzer on January 27, 2011, 02:01:28 AM
That's problematic for someone who, like myself, would really like to enjoy the awesome airships and fascinating technology and pretty gears and stuff without seeing myself in the Exotic Oriental Girl Who Is a Plot Point. When so much of a genre becomes indulgence of colonial pipe dreams, I think it behooves us to write against it and reclaim it.

Have you heard or read PodCastle 90: Biographical Notes to “A Discourse on the Nature of Causality, with Air-planes” by Benjamin Rosenbaum, by Benjamin Rosenbaum? This seems to fit the bill to me -- i.e. non-Colonial, non-racist.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Unblinking on January 27, 2011, 02:50:08 PM
Eytanz: Thanks so much for the kind words! You ask a really great question, and this is my take:

I think "Western" and "Icelandic Saga" are geopolitically bounded in ways that "Steampunk" is not. "Steampunk" is already riffing on "Cyberpunk," which is not, so far as I'm aware, particularly localised. But your question about why we ought to bother expanding genre labels instead of creating new labels really interests me.


I don't have a problem with Steampunk without Victorian England.  I kind of have trouble grasping a steampunk without the steam, though.  Because then you're just left with "punk", and that's something different entirely, and is certainly not "steampunk".  I know there was an automaton in this story, which is certainly steampunk, but since it never had any effect on the tale it didn't strike me as a genre-defining moment.  (I know you explained your ideas about stones and electrical impulses, but the stonework still feels like 100% magic to me)

As you said, "steampunk" is already riffing on "cyberpunk", but imagine if we took the "cyber" out of "cyberpunk".  No more VR, no more "jacking in", and instead of having awesome virtual action sequences and espionage, those same characters are probably going to be sitting on the computer looking up porn, chatting on Facebook, or discussing stories on a podcast forum.  Likewise, if VR technology exists in a story world, but VR is never used by the main characters nor does it affect anything they do, then I'd hesitate to call the story cyberpunk.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: yicheng on January 27, 2011, 04:46:18 PM
Someone mentioned something about having a Western in France.  I just wanted to poke my head up and say that much of Akira Kurosawa's work (7 Samurai, Yojimibo, etc) were a direct influence on the Spaghetti Western movie genre.  So, really, modern westerns are actually American Samurai movies.   ;D

Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: stePH on January 28, 2011, 02:51:58 AM
Someone mentioned something about having a Western in France.  I just wanted to poke my head up and say that much of Akira Kurosawa's work (7 Samurai, Yojimibo, etc) were a direct influence on the Spaghetti Western movie genre.  So, really, modern westerns are actually American Samurai movies.   ;D

Indeed, and in fact The Magnificent Seven is an obvious remake of The Seven Samurai, and A Fistful of Dollars is a remake of Yojimbo (so is the Bruce Willis movie Last Man Standing, and it actually credits Kurosawa for the story.)
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: kibitzer on January 28, 2011, 08:56:36 AM
Indeed, and in fact The Magnificent Seven is an obvious remake of The Seven Samurai, and A Fistful of Dollars is a remake of Yojimbo (so is the Bruce Willis movie Last Man Standing, and it actually credits Kurosawa for the story.)

Last Man Standing is one of my favourite movies ever, I watch it several times a year. If you see Yojimbo the source is completely obvious, but DAMN it travels well into gangs and Prohibition. LMS has a fantastic soundtrack, too.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: amalmohtar on January 28, 2011, 12:35:45 PM
Oh, by the way, for anyone interested, the anthology's now available for purchase (http://www.torquerebooks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3036). Y'all have GOT to read Shweta Narayan's story!
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Listener on January 28, 2011, 01:32:53 PM
The reading was very good. The confrontation between Nala and Hessa made up for a somewhat slow expository section.

I enjoyed the story and the setting. The concept of "but that can't happen, I was never taught how to do that, no one's ever done that" isn't new, although combining it with... what would you call it? "Sex by surprise"?... isn't something I've heard much of.

I get the feeling that the author had Morena Baccarin a la Firefly in mind when she wrote Nala, though I could be wrong. That's certainly who I saw, though.

If there's one thing I didn't like about this story, it's that it appeared in an anthology that I have a story that was perfect for it, and I never even heard of the anthology until today. Darn it.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: stePH on January 28, 2011, 03:13:39 PM
Last Man Standing is one of my favourite movies ever, I watch it several times a year. If you see Yojimbo the source is completely obvious, but DAMN it travels well into gangs and Prohibition. LMS has a fantastic soundtrack, too.

I'd not yet seen Yojimbo nor A Fistful of Dollars when I first saw LMS (still haven't seen Fistful). All I knew, was that I thought it was awesome.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: DKT on January 28, 2011, 05:20:50 PM
Oh, by the way, for anyone interested, the anthology's now available for purchase (http://www.torquerebooks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3036). Y'all have GOT to read Shweta Narayan's story!

Sweet! Thanks, Amal.

I've updated the PodCastle page and the front page of this thread.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: amalmohtar on January 28, 2011, 10:22:17 PM

I get the feeling that the author had Morena Baccarin a la Firefly in mind when she wrote Nala, though I could be wrong. That's certainly who I saw, though.

If there's one thing I didn't like about this story, it's that it appeared in an anthology that I have a story that was perfect for it, and I never even heard of the anthology until today. Darn it.

Hah! I adore Morena Baccarin, especially in that role, but no, didn't think of her at all. Nahla's a lot more severe-looking and angular in my head, and has darker skin.

As to the story and the anthology... There's going to be a second one! :) http://upstart-crow.livejournal.com/442166.html

You should totally send her something!

Sweet! Thanks, Amal.

I've updated the PodCastle page and the front page of this thread.

Hooray! Thank YOU!
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: eytanz on January 28, 2011, 11:22:01 PM
So, I need to start with a mea culpa - earlier, I tried responding to the announcement of the anthology with a question. I did it when I was in a hurry. And what I didn't notice is that instead of clicking "quote", I clicked "modify". Because I'm a mod and can modify other people's posts. So I actually inserted my question into Amal's post, which A - is really rude, and B - must have looked really weird to everyone who saw it. My sincerest apologies.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest (and fixed the original post), here is the actual question regarding the anthology:

Does anyone know if there are plans for an e-book version? I prefer them to physical books these days, partially because I've run out of shelf space in my flat, and partially because it's easier for me to always carry my Kindle with me.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Scattercat on January 28, 2011, 11:23:59 PM
I agree!  I'm trying to keep my "real book" purchases down in an effort to make future moving efforts easier.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: amalmohtar on February 01, 2011, 06:00:22 PM
Eytanz: No worries! I didn't even see it. :)

Does anyone know if there are plans for an e-book version? I prefer them to physical books these days, partially because I've run out of shelf space in my flat, and partially because it's easier for me to always carry my Kindle with me.

I have this info now; you can order an e-book on the same site, just specify that you'd like it in e-book format, as here: http://www.torquerebooks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3034

Looks like the e-book is $6.99.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Umbrageofsnow on February 06, 2011, 10:27:56 PM
This is an okay story, but I do not agree with the insistence that it counts as steampunk.

The ending seems a little rapey to me. But the solution to rape is not "rape 'em right back." Tit-for-tat doesn't seem right with rape scenario. On the other hand, who is to say it doesn't work in the story culture? But it left me feeling uncomfortable and the other girl seems exceptionally sadistic and empathy-free.

Since some parts read a bit like erotica or a bad romance, I am happy for the dark turn towards the end. It made things a bit more interesting.

And there really is no argument that there is a scientific basis for the dream stuff.  Crystals holding dreams is about the most MAGICAL thing I've ever heard.  Until I read a bit further and read about dreams carved into crystals stealing the nocturnal willpower of distant persons and forcing them to do things against their will.  That is nothing but pure MAGIC.  Which is fine for a fantasy story.  But it was driving me a bit crazy that there was a claim this was scientifically justified.
------------

So those were my thoughts about the story in general, now about the great Steampunk Definition debate.

There is a steam automaton in the background of one scene that is irrelevant to the story. That is the ENTIRE SUM OF TECHNOLOGY in the story. The argument that "steampunk things are happening in other parts of the world" is irrelevant. Just as stories which might as well take place at the grocery store do not become Science Fiction if you declare that said grocery store is located on a space station. It takes more than hydroponic tomatoes to make science fiction. And however we want to define steampunk, I think that it takes some amount of "steam" (a.k.a. anachronisticly advanced microprocessor-free technology) elements. (Punk is an altogether trickier subject, the term itself is widely abused.)

While cyberpunk is a sub-genre of attitude and philosophy as well as aesthetic, steampunk seems to be entirely about setting. Much like definitions of planets must either exclude Pluto, include far too many things to be useful, or be applied unevenly, a useful and fairly applied definition of steampunk must exclude some border cases. It seems unhelpful to classify anything with a zeppelin or a tophat somewhere in the story as steampunk. No technology is relevant or central to this story, all the elements work by plain and simple magic. I agree that steampunk need not be confined to Victorian England, but you can't just set something in the 1800s and declare it steampunk by theoretical (irrelevant) time period alone. And if we want to talk feelings, this story has a very magical, standard-fantasy feel. It has a lot in common with Hooves and the Hovel of Abdel Jameela, from a setting and feeling point of view, although that even feels more "punk" to me than this story.

Dragons don't make Fantasy, Fantasy sometimes makes dragons.  I like that quote.  This should be true in any subgenre. But I still don't see a definition of steampunk that gets this story included. Unless it is overbroad. Like Pluto is only a planet if way way too many things are. So better to define Pluto as not a planet, for the term to have any meaning.

And honestly, both wikipedia and I consider Steampunk a sub-genre of Science Fiction, not Fantasy.  Magic is all well and good, and Steampunk generally isn't trying to be hard, but things tend to be approached from a rational angle.

-punk made sense with "Cyberpunk" and has been misused and abused ever since, and has increasingly been appended to things that are much less literary movements and much more trends of setting.

Am I ranting too much off topic here?
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: eytanz on February 07, 2011, 12:46:55 AM
The ending seems a little rapey to me. But the solution to rape is not "rape 'em right back." Tit-for-tat doesn't seem right with rape scenario. On the other hand, who is to say it doesn't work in the story culture? But it left me feeling uncomfortable and the other girl seems exceptionally sadistic and empathy-free.

I don't think there's anything "rapey" about the ending to the story, because:

1. Hessa did not rape Nala. Not all non-consensual sex is rape, just like not all killing is murder - you can't accidentally or inadvertently rape someone. rape requires some sort of volition on behalf of the perpetrator.

2. Nala does not want to "rape Hessa back". She says that she wants to dominate Hessa, and inflict on her the kind of treatment she suffered, but Hessa consents to this (at least at the time of the end of the story), and agrees to train Nala in the skills she needs.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: DKT on February 07, 2011, 04:36:58 PM
And honestly, both wikipedia and I consider Steampunk a sub-genre of Science Fiction, not Fantasy. 

I see your steampunk is a sub-genre of SF, and raise it with SF is a sub-genre (along with all fiction) of Fantasy.

I'm not being completely serious. You're not going to hear Raymond Carver's "Cathedral" on PC. But I think when you have people like China Mieville, Tim Powers, and Alan Moore writing steampunk, suggesting steampunk, by definition, is SF but not fantasy, is really a difficult position to defend.

And for the record, Wikipedia actually defines steampunk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk) as "a subgenre of Science Fiction, Alternate History, and Speculative Fiction" - the latter which encapsulates fantasy.)
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Millenium_King on February 10, 2011, 01:48:41 AM
So, I'm going down the archives of Podcastle while Pseudopod slumbers in its coffin and this was one of the first ones I listened to.

I really enjoyed the language in this story and found it suitably sultry and erotic.  Most of the scenes where Hessa was longing after Nahla kept me riveted: it's really interesting, as a man, to read what a woman finds attractive about another woman.  Furthermore, I felt the dream sequences were "sexy" without being purple or using awkward metaphors.  This sort of thing is difficult to write, so my hat is off to the author.

My only gripes include: the beginning was too slooooow and the description of the dream-rocks went on too loooooong.  I found myself saying "magic, got it" (points to anyone who gets the reference) and wanting the story to move on.  An interesting concept, but a bit slow in the execution.  Of course, I am first to admit my personal bias is toward front-loaded, old-fashioned "pulp" so anyway...

The last point I want to bring up, and that I don't think anyone has brought up so far, is the rather serindipidious nature of Nahla's sexuality.  I kept thinking to myself that it was an awful big coincidence that she just happened to like women too.  She never once complained about the fact that she was being dream-raped by another woman.  It kept me thinking about how this scenario would have played out had one or the other been a man.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Unblinking on February 10, 2011, 03:13:22 PM
The last point I want to bring up, and that I don't think anyone has brought up so far, is the rather serindipidious nature of Nahla's sexuality.  I kept thinking to myself that it was an awful big coincidence that she just happened to like women too.  She never once complained about the fact that she was being dream-raped by another woman.  It kept me thinking about how this scenario would have played out had one or the other been a man.

Yup, that had crossed my mind too, and was one of the contributing factors to my conclusion that the final scene was only a dream that the narrator constructed for herself.  If Nahlia had been heterosexual, the dream would've been a fizzle, therefore she wasn't.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: hautdesert on February 10, 2011, 05:08:47 PM
Not meaning to be critical at all, or imply the rightness or wrongness of any particular answer, but here's a question to ponder:  Would you have considered it serendipitous or conveniently coincidental if one had been male and the other female?  Or would that have been "normal" or "expected"?

Like I said, I'm not trying to imply that there's a right answer to that, or that finding the attraction serendipitous is wrong or bad or whatever.  Just...suggesting looking at it from another angle for a moment, and pondering what you might see.

Editing to clarify--I'm not asking how it would have played out if one of them had been a man.  I'm asking why one would be unsurprising and normal, and why another would be perceived as unusual to the point it seems conveniently coincidental.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Devoted135 on February 10, 2011, 06:00:21 PM
I think it comes across as serendipitous because of pure statistics. Using current stats, there was what, a 10% or so chance that Nahla would prefer females? Compared to if the Hessa had fixated on a man, then there would have been a ~90% chance that he would prefer females. The odds just seem relatively small.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: ElectricPaladin on February 10, 2011, 06:06:58 PM
I think it comes across as serendipitous because of pure statistics. Using current stats, there was what, a 10% or so chance that Nahla would prefer females? Compared to if the Hessa had fixated on a man, then there would have been a ~90% chance that he would prefer females. The odds just seem relatively small.

And how likely is it that a bunch of moisture farmers' droid would break down, just in time for young Luke to be sent to buy new ones on the exact day that two droids formerly belonging to a certain princess were for sale? By that logic, nobody who prefers their own gender would ever manage to get laid, let alone committed/married. All stories - and real life, for that matter - are full of coincidences and contrivances.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Devoted135 on February 10, 2011, 06:59:03 PM
I think it comes across as serendipitous because of pure statistics. Using current stats, there was what, a 10% or so chance that Nahla would prefer females? Compared to if the Hessa had fixated on a man, then there would have been a ~90% chance that he would prefer females. The odds just seem relatively small.

And how likely is it that a bunch of moisture farmers' droid would break down, just in time for young Luke to be sent to buy new ones on the exact day that two droids formerly belonging to a certain princess were for sale? By that logic, nobody who prefers their own gender would ever manage to get laid, let alone committed/married. All stories - and real life, for that matter - are full of coincidences and contrivances.


Yes, that's definitely true, but that doesn't make it any less serendipitous. I'm actually fine with the author's choice to allow for this particular unlikely chance and think that it makes for a much more interesting story than if Hessa had fixated on a hunky guy rather than a mysterious woman. At the same time, as a reader it does cross my mind that she got quite lucky.


Also, specifically in relation to this:
Quote
By that logic, nobody who prefers their own gender would ever manage to get laid, let alone committed/married.

If I'm interpreting you correctly (or rather, slightly exaggerating you correctly), this is only true if we get one shot at choosing a partner, and that shot is defined as picking someone out from a crowd based purely on gut instinct. Luckily, we don't live in a society that operates like that, though it might make for an interesting story idea. :)
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on February 10, 2011, 09:08:01 PM
Maybe Hessa has really good 'gaydar'.  She fixated on a woman that likes women because something - intuition, whatever - told her when she saw Nahla in person that she was probably a lesbian.

Also, never forget Narrative Causality (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheoryOfNarrativeCausality).  The story was published in a collection of lesbian steampunk stories, so it had to turn out that way!  :D

Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: kibitzer on February 11, 2011, 01:46:44 AM
Serendipitous.

I just wanted to say that word.

Serendipitous.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: DKT on February 11, 2011, 01:53:17 AM
Serendipitous.

I just wanted to say that word.

Serendipitous.

I would like a recording of you saying that word, possibly on a loop :)

ETA: Added the quote, so people know what I'm talking about!
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: hautdesert on February 11, 2011, 01:49:40 PM

Yes, that's definitely true, but that doesn't make it any less serendipitous. I'm actually fine with the author's choice to allow for this particular unlikely chance and think that it makes for a much more interesting story than if Hessa had fixated on a hunky guy rather than a mysterious woman. At the same time, as a reader it does cross my mind that she got quite lucky.

Regardless of orientation, anyone gets lucky any time the person they're attracted to is also attracted to them.  We're so used to the heterosexual romance plot that it seems obvious--of course they're going to be attracted to each other and end up together!  But in fact, it isn't really that likely. It's serendipitous if you look at it from a real-life perspective.  It only looks obviously naturally non-coincidental and so much more likely because it's a common narrative device.  Pure statistics doesn't actually account for it.  As Electric Paladin points out, it's certainly statistically common enough for most people to have romantic prospects, sometimes plenty of them.

And there are cultural issues.  Some research has indicated that most people would be willing to swing both ways, at least on occasion, but don't because of societal pressures and assumptions.  Different culture, different assortment of potential romantic partners.

Anyway.  My main point was, that the chances of any given attraction being mutual are rare enough that it should also affect the standard M/F romance aspect of stories, and yet no one thinks of it that way. Change the gender and suddenly it seems surprising and "serendipitous" and a co-incidence, but it isn't, not any more than any other mutual attraction, it just looks that way because our culture sets up heterosexual couplings as the norm and anything else as unusual.

And of course, why write a story about the dozens of times someone walks down the street and thinks "wow she's hot!" and then forgets about it?  Or the times she goes up to someone really attractive and says "buy you a drink?" and the answer is "No thanks, I'm waiting for my girlfriend."  Not much story there.  So of course we're going to hear about the occasion it turns out to be mutual.  Just like the heterosexual ones.  It's not a question of statistics or coincidence.

Just my take.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: eytanz on February 11, 2011, 02:20:11 PM
And of course, why write a story about the dozens of times someone walks down the street and thinks "wow she's hot!" and then forgets about it?  Or the times she goes up to someone really attractive and says "buy you a drink?" and the answer is "No thanks, I'm waiting for my girlfriend."  Not much story there.  So of course we're going to hear about the occasion it turns out to be mutual.  Just like the heterosexual ones.  It's not a question of statistics or coincidence.

The problem with this logic is that this is the one time she accidentally got so obsessed with someone she transplanted her into her work. The fact that the one person she did that to also happened to be a person who is sexually attracted to her is a coincidence.

However, as you point out, this is true of nearly every romance story, homo- or hetero-sexual. It only seems like a more extreme coincidence in our world, where it is true that openly homosexual women are a relatively small minority (compared to the sum of all women who are either not attracted to other women or refuse to act on such an attraction). But we don't know if the same holds in her world; not only we don't know anything about the demographics of her city, we also don't know anything of her society's attitude to lesbian relationships. If there is no stigma attached to being gay or bisexual, then presumably a much larger percentage of the society will feel free to engage in such relationships.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Devoted135 on February 11, 2011, 03:31:23 PM

Yes, that's definitely true, but that doesn't make it any less serendipitous. I'm actually fine with the author's choice to allow for this particular unlikely chance and think that it makes for a much more interesting story than if Hessa had fixated on a hunky guy rather than a mysterious woman. At the same time, as a reader it does cross my mind that she got quite lucky.

Regardless of orientation, anyone gets lucky any time the person they're attracted to is also attracted to them.  We're so used to the heterosexual romance plot that it seems obvious--of course they're going to be attracted to each other and end up together!  But in fact, it isn't really that likely. It's serendipitous if you look at it from a real-life perspective.  It only looks obviously naturally non-coincidental and so much more likely because it's a common narrative device.  Pure statistics doesn't actually account for it.  As Electric Paladin points out, it's certainly statistically common enough for most people to have romantic prospects, sometimes plenty of them.

And there are cultural issues.  Some research has indicated that most people would be willing to swing both ways, at least on occasion, but don't because of societal pressures and assumptions.  Different culture, different assortment of potential romantic partners.

Anyway.  My main point was, that the chances of any given attraction being mutual are rare enough that it should also affect the standard M/F romance aspect of stories, and yet no one thinks of it that way. Change the gender and suddenly it seems surprising and "serendipitous" and a co-incidence, but it isn't, not any more than any other mutual attraction, it just looks that way because our culture sets up heterosexual couplings as the norm and anything else as unusual.

And of course, why write a story about the dozens of times someone walks down the street and thinks "wow she's hot!" and then forgets about it?  Or the times she goes up to someone really attractive and says "buy you a drink?" and the answer is "No thanks, I'm waiting for my girlfriend."  Not much story there.  So of course we're going to hear about the occasion it turns out to be mutual.  Just like the heterosexual ones.  It's not a question of statistics or coincidence.

Just my take.

I agree with the majority of the above, but I'm just having a hard time with applying it to this particular story. IMO it's not serendipitous per se when two people are attracted to each other in real life because presumably both people have been testing the waters with numerous others and have now found "the one" only after lots of finding "not-the-one" if you will. So of course this is the part of our lives that usually gets written about, because as you say that makes for a better story, with the unstated assumption that the characters have also had previous relationships.

But, in this case Hessa has not been pulling lots of people (male or female) into her dreams and has now finally found someone who would like to share them. This was a one-time shot. Would I have been just as surprised if the exact same story had been written with a guy in Nahla's place? Honestly, my personal biases probably mean it would have stuck out to me less, but objectively, it would have been only very slightly less serendipitous.

So, I guess I'm amending my previous statement to say that IMO because this was the first time that this situation occurred, the attraction itself was serendipitous, made even more so by Nahla's gender.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Millenium_King on February 11, 2011, 03:58:20 PM
Anyway.  My main point was, that the chances of any given attraction being mutual are rare enough that it should also affect the standard M/F romance aspect of stories, and yet no one thinks of it that way. Change the gender and suddenly it seems surprising and "serendipitous" and a co-incidence, but it isn't, not any more than any other mutual attraction, it just looks that way because our culture sets up heterosexual couplings as the norm and anything else as unusual.

For had Nahla been a man, it would have been serindipidious that "he" was attracted to Hessa.  But, since Nahla was a woman it was serindipidious that (a) Nahla was willing to enter into a homosexual relationship and (b) that Nahla was attracted to Hessa.  I realize that society has a trend toward "heteronormity" but the truth of the matter is that heterosexual relationships are actually more common.  Hence, it is a double coincidence that Nahla was willing to enter into a relationship with Hessa.  That was my point.

I think we're all also assuming that attraction between the two actually exists.  I felt Nahla was just in it for revenge really, not for a relationship or because she was attracted the Hessa.  I guess that puts a whole different spin on it, though.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Unblinking on February 11, 2011, 09:21:31 PM
Regardless of orientation, anyone gets lucky any time the person they're attracted to is also attracted to them.  We're so used to the heterosexual romance plot that it seems obvious--of course they're going to be attracted to each other and end up together!  But in fact, it isn't really that likely. It's serendipitous if you look at it from a real-life perspective.  It only looks obviously naturally non-coincidental and so much more likely because it's a common narrative device.  Pure statistics doesn't actually account for it.  As Electric Paladin points out, it's certainly statistically common enough for most people to have romantic prospects, sometimes plenty of them.

And there are cultural issues.  Some research has indicated that most people would be willing to swing both ways, at least on occasion, but don't because of societal pressures and assumptions.  Different culture, different assortment of potential romantic partners.

Anyway.  My main point was, that the chances of any given attraction being mutual are rare enough that it should also affect the standard M/F romance aspect of stories, and yet no one thinks of it that way. Change the gender and suddenly it seems surprising and "serendipitous" and a co-incidence, but it isn't, not any more than any other mutual attraction, it just looks that way because our culture sets up heterosexual couplings as the norm and anything else as unusual.

And of course, why write a story about the dozens of times someone walks down the street and thinks "wow she's hot!" and then forgets about it?  Or the times she goes up to someone really attractive and says "buy you a drink?" and the answer is "No thanks, I'm waiting for my girlfriend."  Not much story there.  So of course we're going to hear about the occasion it turns out to be mutual.  Just like the heterosexual ones.  It's not a question of statistics or coincidence.

Just my take.

The reason I thought it a coincidence was just because of the statistics.  To respond to your point, I'm not sure there's actually an indication that Nahlia IS sexually attracted to our protagonist.  I assumed she's a lesbian because otherwise that revenge seems like the revenge would be unpleasant for herself as well.  (well, that and the fact that it was in a lesbian steampunk book)

And it's not that I felt that the coincidence was wrong, or unbelievable, or anything.  It's just that it was one factor into considering other interpretations of the final scene.  Several improbabilities added up in the most obvious interpretation, and so I considered alternate interpretations and found one that seemed more likely to me.

For what it's worth, I am often skeptical of the odds of heterosexual attraction in stories as well.  The lead female tends to end up with the lead male simply because they are the leads.  For a relationship story I tend to shrug it off because of all the threads of possibility, THIS is the one that makes a relationship story.  However, since this only really became a mutual relationship at the very end, I'm not sure I'd quite call this a relationship story, so I may have had different assumptions because of that.

Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: kibitzer on February 12, 2011, 11:40:07 PM
Serendipitous.

I just wanted to say that word.

Serendipitous.

I would like a recording of you saying that word, possibly on a loop :)

ETA: Added the quote, so people know what I'm talking about!

http://dunlop.id.au/readings/serendipitous.mp3
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: DKT on February 13, 2011, 05:58:37 AM
Serendipitous.

I just wanted to say that word.

Serendipitous.

I would like a recording of you saying that word, possibly on a loop :)

ETA: Added the quote, so people know what I'm talking about!

http://dunlop.id.au/readings/serendipitous.mp3

*swoons*  :D
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: mbrennan on February 26, 2011, 11:38:53 PM
I am coming very late to the party (my usual habit of building up a lot of eps and then listening to them in a bunch), but better late than never, right?

I very much enjoyed the story; Amal's writing is beautifully lyrical without tipping over my personal boundary into self-indulgent or obfuscatory, and I adore the richness of the worldbuilding.  This particular story also pinged a button in my head, about how little sympathy I have for "I saw this person and totally fell in love with them and made up this whole imaginary relationship without ever speaking to them" plots; I may very well revisit this story to think it through some more.

On the "steampunk or not" front, I haven't yet read Amal's links (and those may change my thinking), but I admit my gut reaction put me on the "not steampunk" side of things -- but not for the lack of Victoriana, because I'd lovelovelove to read more non-Victorian steampunk.  For me, what was lacking was a feeling of industrialization: I identify the subgenre as one that plays with the tensions of a newly mechanized world, and all the social, economic, cultural, religious, political, and other consequences of that.  Not all of those consequences will fit into a short story, of course, and I don't expect them to; but the aspects of this story that stayed with me weren't industrial at all, and could have been transplanted a few centuries earlier without much disrupting the shape.  Whether it's clockwork, actual steam, or a fantastic technology that evokes the same industrial vibe, that's what I personally look for in a steampunk story, regardless of its cultural milieu.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: LaShawn on March 09, 2011, 05:09:40 PM
Another late player to the game. I loveeeeeed this story. Had me hooked on the first word. The ending was...interesting. I liked this whole idea of a dream person not living up to the actual reality of that person.

I'm pretty clueless when it comes to steampunk (though I've been reading a lot of it lately), but I found this story more engrossing than Balfour and Merriweather, with its obvious steampunk traits.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Fenrix on April 11, 2011, 09:17:52 PM
Big thumbs up to Amal.

The discussion skirted around it, but never arrived at one of the things niggling at me. Would this be as well received if Hessa was a man? If a male character was inserting his fantasy female into erotically charged dreams for non-consensual sex, how would that change the story? Or would that convert it more strongly over to a Dominance and submission tale?
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: ElectricPaladin on April 11, 2011, 09:40:50 PM
Big thumbs up to Amal.

The discussion skirted around it, but never arrived at one of the things niggling at me. Would this be as well received if Hessa was a man? If a male character was inserting his fantasy female into erotically charged dreams for non-consensual sex, how would that change the story? Or would that convert it more strongly over to a Dominance and submission tale?

I always find those questions very interesting. It think nothing would have been "wrong" with such a story, but I believe that it probably not have been as well received. I don't think it would have added a greater D/s tone, but I don't think most people saw the D/s tone as strongly as I did, anyway.

Finally, I think the lesbianism added a lot to the story. Hessa's lostness and her fascination with Nala both come from her own unexpressed sexuality. A male character lusting after a woman in a heteronormative society would not have experienced the alienation and desperation to the same degree.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Swamp on April 11, 2011, 11:13:36 PM
Big thumbs up to Amal.

The discussion skirted around it, but never arrived at one of the things niggling at me. Would this be as well received if Hessa was a man? If a male character was inserting his fantasy female into erotically charged dreams for non-consensual sex, how would that change the story? Or would that convert it more strongly over to a Dominance and submission tale?

Finally, I think the lesbianism added a lot to the story. Hessa's lostness and her fascination with Nala both come from her own unexpressed sexuality. A male character lusting after a woman in a heteronormative society would not have experienced the alienation and desperation to the same degree.


That and the author was writing this for an anthology subtitled "Lesbian Steampunk Stories"
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: ElectricPaladin on April 11, 2011, 11:45:49 PM
Big thumbs up to Amal.

The discussion skirted around it, but never arrived at one of the things niggling at me. Would this be as well received if Hessa was a man? If a male character was inserting his fantasy female into erotically charged dreams for non-consensual sex, how would that change the story? Or would that convert it more strongly over to a Dominance and submission tale?

Finally, I think the lesbianism added a lot to the story. Hessa's lostness and her fascination with Nala both come from her own unexpressed sexuality. A male character lusting after a woman in a heteronormative society would not have experienced the alienation and desperation to the same degree.


That and the author was writing this for an anthology subtitled "Lesbian Steampunk Stories"

Well, yes. There is that.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Fenrix on April 12, 2011, 03:21:57 PM
Big thumbs up to Amal.

The discussion skirted around it, but never arrived at one of the things niggling at me. Would this be as well received if Hessa was a man? If a male character was inserting his fantasy female into erotically charged dreams for non-consensual sex, how would that change the story? Or would that convert it more strongly over to a Dominance and submission tale?

Finally, I think the lesbianism added a lot to the story. Hessa's lostness and her fascination with Nala both come from her own unexpressed sexuality. A male character lusting after a woman in a heteronormative society would not have experienced the alienation and desperation to the same degree.


That and the author was writing this for an anthology subtitled "Lesbian Steampunk Stories"

There was more than just lust going on. And although my non-representative sample of stories wants to say otherwise, PodCastle (where I experienced the story) is not purely a GBLT publication. I think the question is still valid. Would more people have problems with the non-consensual portion if it was a heterosexual pair?
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Unblinking on April 12, 2011, 04:23:50 PM
Big thumbs up to Amal.

The discussion skirted around it, but never arrived at one of the things niggling at me. Would this be as well received if Hessa was a man? If a male character was inserting his fantasy female into erotically charged dreams for non-consensual sex, how would that change the story? Or would that convert it more strongly over to a Dominance and submission tale?

Very interesting question.  I think that the story would've been generally less well received.  In a similar manner that a man sitting alone near a playground is more likely to be the subject of suspicion than a woman sitting alone near a playground.

Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: DKT on April 12, 2011, 04:42:41 PM
Has anyone hear read Jennifer Pelland's story "Captive Girl" (http://transcriptase.org/fiction/pelland-jennifer-captive-girl/)? Warning: Very Dark. (Electric Paladin, you should definitely check it out.)

I mention it because Pelland said in her short story collection that she knew the relationship between the two characters in "Captive Girl" would not have worked for the reader if one of the characters had been a man.

It's obviously a different story than "To Follow the Waves," but I imagine some people might feel the same way about the relationships in this story as Pelland did in her own story.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: ElectricPaladin on April 12, 2011, 05:10:24 PM
Has anyone hear read Jennifer Pelland's story "Captive Girl" (http://transcriptase.org/fiction/pelland-jennifer-captive-girl/)? Warning: Very Dark. (Electric Paladin, you should definitely check it out.)

Woah. That was awesome. Thanks for the recommendation. The ending wasn't that dark, though. They still have each other, and it's hardly the worst thing in the world for them to have a fetish to share. Now, it would be nice if Marika could grow up enough that they could have a relationship outside of their kinky sex sessions... but maybe she will, eventually. Or maybe not, and it'll work out ok anyway.

I kind of wonder what will happen when Alice meets someone at work, or at the park, or in a coffee shop, really hits it off, and something more fully romantic, more fulfilling begins. Can Marika handle being only one of Alice's partners? Would Marika up her relationship game in order to compete? I don't know.

The best stories leave us with questions.

I mention it because Pelland said in her short story collection that she knew the relationship between the two characters in "Captive Girl" would not have worked for the reader if one of the characters had been a man.

This is absolutely correct, and you have no idea how much it frustrates me. The way I see it, the story would have worked fine. It's the readers who would have broken it.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Wilson Fowlie on April 21, 2011, 03:53:03 PM
Speaking of story recommendations, and steampunk (http://www.will-ludwigsen.com/wp/?p=1572)...
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Biscuit on July 13, 2011, 10:23:59 PM
Very late in the game here because I'm playing catch up on episodes after many months.

I LOVED LOVED LOVED this story. I'm not a fan so much of steampunk because of its tropes, colonial-centricism, and restraint of female characters (they can kick butt, but only in a bustle, only if a male saves them later, and only if they get married later). This one threw off the shackles of all that - a reimagined age where women were free to work and love without social restraint.

I'm a little worried about how some commenters here spoke for lesbian/bi experience too. If I was a lesbian/bi woman told that my f/f relationship was "statistically rare" or overly "serendipidous", I'd be miffed at that sort of invisibilization of queer relationships.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: deflective on July 14, 2011, 02:27:11 AM
I'm not a fan so much of steampunk because of its tropes, colonial-centricism, and restraint of female characters (they can kick butt, but only in a bustle, only if a male saves them later, and only if they get married later).

our steampunk experiences have been very different.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: eytanz on July 14, 2011, 04:39:01 PM
I'm not a fan so much of steampunk because of its tropes, colonial-centricism, and restraint of female characters (they can kick butt, but only in a bustle, only if a male saves them later, and only if they get married later).

our steampunk experiences have been very different.

I agree; most steampunk I read errs on the side of ignoring the colonies, not being centered around them, and while I've read a lot of steampunk where female characters kick butt, I've read very little in which they then need to be rescued by men or get married afterwards.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: DKT on July 14, 2011, 04:58:30 PM
I'm not a fan so much of steampunk because of its tropes, colonial-centricism, and restraint of female characters (they can kick butt, but only in a bustle, only if a male saves them later, and only if they get married later).

our steampunk experiences have been very different.

In last week's SF Signal Mind Meld, Jeff VanderMeer (who edited a couple of Steampunk anthologies and the lovely looking Steampunk Bible) talked some about this (http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2011/07/mind-meld-why-has-steampunk-persisted-for-so-long/), and about how big the steampunk sub-genre actually is. It's a good read, if anyone's interested.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: Biscuit on July 18, 2011, 03:09:18 AM
I'm not a fan so much of steampunk because of its tropes, colonial-centricism, and restraint of female characters (they can kick butt, but only in a bustle, only if a male saves them later, and only if they get married later).

our steampunk experiences have been very different.

I agree; most steampunk I read errs on the side of ignoring the colonies, not being centered around them, and while I've read a lot of steampunk where female characters kick butt, I've read very little in which they then need to be rescued by men or get married afterwards.


I'm thinking of Gail Carriger. Though people might argue it's not steampunk, but paranormal historical romance.
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: deflective on July 18, 2011, 03:19:21 AM
i looked up the wikipedia article for Gail Carriger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Carriger) and found out her real name is Tofa Borregaard
why would you ever use a pen name if you had an awesome name like Tofa Borregaard?
Title: Re: PC139: To Follow the Waves
Post by: danooli on July 18, 2011, 10:54:05 PM
I have to admit that I LOVE Gail Carrigers "Parasol Protectorate" series  ;D

It's a light-hearted, interesting, jolly, non-challenging yet mildly intelligent and proper romp. Alexia Tarabotti is among my favorite heroines.  (I would love to have dinner with her and Marla Mason.  Provided I could fold time to allow that.)

I still have to read the latest, though...  ;D