Escape Artists

Escape Pod => Episode Comments => Topic started by: Jim on April 20, 2007, 01:46:42 AM

Title: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Jim on April 20, 2007, 01:46:42 AM
EP102: The Angle of My Dreams (http://escapepod.org/2007/04/19/ep102-the-angle-of-my-dreams/)

By Jay Lake. (http://www.jlake.com/)
Read by Stephen Eley.
First appeared in 3SF Magazine, October 2002.

That spring in math class, after we’d all kind of got back to normal about the Challenger blowing up, we were studying angles. Because I do good in class, Mrs. Doornie gave me a protractor to work with, and I used it to measure the angle of my dreams. That’s when I figured exactly how steep a hill needed to be for me to fly in real life.

Rated PG for corporal punishment and death of family members.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Thaurismunths on April 20, 2007, 01:54:58 AM
Wow, what a cool story!
I was doing dishes while listening and actually found myself 1) smiling to myself, and 2) hoping the boy and the old man would make it.
All around an enjoyable tale!
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Josh on April 20, 2007, 02:06:02 AM
It's great to have an all around nice and friendly story in the midst of depressed alien races and civilizations destroying themselves due to soul rendering darkness.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Simon Painter on April 20, 2007, 09:01:13 AM
I don't really have much to say about this one.  It was OK, but just that.  The writing style is great, the characters are well defined, and there's a plot, all good stuff.  For some reason, though, this one just didn't do it for me.   It could be the short length of the story that somehow made it seem somewhat trivial: a conflict is set up, only to be overcome almost immediately.

I agree, though, that it's nice to have something light once in a while, and with that idea in mind, I've not really got any objections to this story (well, I could argue once again that it's not SF, but it's not worth getting into a debate  :P)

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: beville on April 20, 2007, 01:08:17 PM
Yay for the out-tro

To paraphrase a recent commercial - with Escape Pod - "Implausibility is everything"
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Simon Painter on April 20, 2007, 01:42:51 PM
oh yes, I forgot to comment on the outro.  Yay for Implausibility.  The Martian Chronicles is one of my favorites and look what the science in that is like  :)
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Simon Painter on April 20, 2007, 02:11:12 PM
hmm, two Simons on consecutive posts, shouldn't the universe implode or something when that happens?

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Shade53 on April 20, 2007, 02:30:51 PM
I found this story cute. With a light touch and sweet ending. Good for parents and children at heart everywhere. It was especially nice on a day, in a week, that's full of dark, heavy things and especially burdensome weights.  That said, it struck me as more Hallmark Channel then what I'm used to in spec/fic. That's not a bad thing. Heart-fuzzers are sometimes just what is needed.

~Sarah
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: clichekiller on April 20, 2007, 08:49:19 PM
I found this piece enjoyable.  It was definitely light and a feel good piece and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  While not quite science fiction, more of a fantasy podcast kind of story, I didn't mind it. 

My only piece of criticism is this, I feel the grandpa adapted to the grandson's way of thinking too quick in the end.  There was a definite transition on his part, with the removal of the nails, the space shuttle model and his more tolerant treatment of the boy, but I felt the last part was just too sudden. 

As for your outro I agree wholeheartedly; please don't ever limit your stories by plausibility.  I think plausibility is a great way to divide science fiction from hard science fiction, the latter being more plausible, but I don't feel it distinguishes sufficiently to remove the science fiction moniker. 
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Swamp on April 20, 2007, 09:21:42 PM
While not quite science fiction, more of a fantasy podcast kind of story, I didn't mind it. 

Remember, the new fantasy podcast hasn't started yet, so Escape Pod still has both SF and Fantasy stories.  :)

As for this story, I liked it too.  Just a nice upbeat story.  It brought back memories of when I was in school when the Challenger blew up.  It also made me impatient for my kids to get old enough so I can build models with them.  I guess I'll have to make due with building tall towers with oversized Legos.

I think the most poigniant moment was when Ronnie realized the sacrifices his grandfather had made in his life.  Good stuff.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: DKT on April 20, 2007, 10:51:02 PM
Wow, that story brought a little sunshine to my rainy day.  I loved how the story took a really dark event and yet came off with very upbeat tone.  The bit about flying making the boy feel like he was closer to God was great.  Kudos to Jay Lake and a great reading by Steve.  I don't think there could have been a more perfect story for this week. 
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Jonathan C. Gillespie on April 21, 2007, 02:00:54 AM
This story was terrific.  Very moving characters inhabiting a short work that also crams in great scene descriptions.  I dug it.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: slic on April 21, 2007, 01:52:40 PM
I liked the story very much - there are times when the fantastic element should not try and be explained.  The boy could fly, let's move on to the story - well done.
However, I didn't get the warm fuzzies that everyone else seemed to get.  I thought both of them had pretty rough lives, and while they came together at the end, it wasn't, to me, a triumphant huzzah type moment.

It did get me thinking and I'd like to try a wholly unscientific poll (does this make it a science fiction poll? ;)) about endings - so I started a new forum here - http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=774.0

This story clearly leaves the ending up to the reader - either they fly or they don't, either the grandpa finds joy in it or is scared to death, etc etc.  Do people prefer that type of open-ended ending or something with more closure?
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Jim on April 21, 2007, 04:44:24 PM
I liked the story a lot, but Steve's outtro just seemed entirely too implausible. :)

More realistic outtros, please!  :D
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: slasher_65 on April 21, 2007, 11:50:15 PM
Am I the only one who thought that there might be a dark side to this story? Sure. I love dark stories, but I am getting worried that, well, Im hearing things which are not there.
Lets take it from another angle. (heh.... angle... geddit?)
The grandpa is clearly troubled. As is the boy, both for their own reasons. What if the son really DID try to jump off the roof? What if he really WAS sleepwalking? Mabey the grandpa is shocked, and this is the reason he comes across to lead us along with the idea that the boy really did fly. Sure, the grandpa near the end starts to enjoy life with his boy, but what if the ending aint as happy as it first appears?

This idea came to me at about 3:30 AM last night, and I am typing it out at 1:20 AM the night after, hence grammatical errors and general senselessness. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: slic on April 22, 2007, 01:43:24 AM
I did consider that near the beginning of the story, but there were a couple of things that cemented my belief that the boy did fly:
a) why would the grandpa tell him about his flying grandma
b) the grandpa had that kind of steel in his voice that is about convincing himslef as mich as the boy when telling the boy he had been sleeping walking.

As I mentioned, I didn't see this as a warm fuzzy story either - both lives had much hardship, and the ability to fly might not make it all better.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: slasher_65 on April 22, 2007, 09:34:48 AM
I think I can explain at least the first one.
The grandpa is very religious, (tells the boy to come down, as he is mocking the angels) and I would have guessed that this was his way of telling the boy that she was dead. Now, I haven't listened to the story in about 3 days, so correct me if I am wrong on this one. We learn (again... I could be wrong) that she went while jumping off the roof, and the grandpa says that she never came down. He could be referring to his belief that she must have gone to heaven, as she was to good to go to hell.
Adults also usually try to comfort children by saying things like this when somebody close to them, or a pet, dies.

As for b), I think that the grandpa might be just completely shaken, and realizes how he has been treating the boy. After this incident, he buys the space-ship model, and starts to change his ways.

So far, I think that this is the first EP story which really got me wondering about what happened at the end. Sure there were others, but I just signed up to a forum to discuss it gorramit!
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: slic on April 24, 2007, 01:15:46 PM
Quote from: slasher_65
that she went while jumping off the roof, and the grandpa says that she never came down. He could be referring to his belief that she must have gone to heaven, as she was to good to go to hell.
Sorry for the late reply - busy busy.  So the problem with this idea is two fold 1)why would he emphasis the flying and, in a way, reinforce the belief that the boy could fly
2)in all Christian teachings that I know (not that many really), suicide is a mortal sin, you cannot go to heaven if you kill yourself (otherwise, why not just end your life when things got bad - you'd go straight to heaven).
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Thaurismunths on April 24, 2007, 02:11:00 PM
I think that the grandpa might be just completely shaken, and realizes how he has been treating the boy. After this incident, he buys the space-ship model, and starts to change his ways.
I would have taken the whole thing of climbing on the roof, jumping off, and not hitting the ground, as an illusion to hanging oneself. Granddad never confirms Ronny's belief that she flew, only that it was "the devil's work' and "a mockery of god."
His fervent refusal to discuss the reality of the situation could be covering the guilt or shame he feels at having lost two people to suicide already.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: clichekiller on April 24, 2007, 02:42:57 PM
On a total tangent, did anyone else notice the whole you just fall and forget to land, Hitchhikers angle to the story?
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: slasher_65 on April 24, 2007, 03:16:42 PM
I noticed that as well. I giggled for a while...
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Josh on April 24, 2007, 09:43:00 PM
On a total tangent, did anyone else notice the whole you just fall and forget to land, Hitchhikers angle to the story?

Ya, you're not alone, I thought that too when I first heard it.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: ajames on April 26, 2007, 11:30:26 PM
I really, really enjoyed this story.

I, too, wondered if there might be something a bit sinister going on here.  But I put it out of my mind as it didn't seem quite as consistent as accepting things at face value.  Or maybe I just wanted to interpret it that way.  Even so, I found the ending to be bitter-sweet.

As for the outtro, I appreciate implausibility most when it results from unrestrained creativity and plays a role in a good story.  There are times when the implausible appears to be unintentional on the author's part and incongruous to the rest of the story, and therefore detracts from the story.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: mummifiedstalin on April 27, 2007, 04:27:02 AM
As for the outtro, I appreciate implausibility most when it results from unrestrained creativity and plays a role in a good story.  There are times when the implausible appears to be unintentional on the author's part and incongruous to the rest of the story, and therefore detracts from the story.
I agree. I think we're all fans of stories that are both implausible (almost all genre fiction) and impossible (fantasy almost by definition). What can sometimes be jarring is when the different modes of speculative fiction like hypothetical, extrapolation, thought-experiment, fantasy, fable, etc. get mixed in ways that don't work. (There are, of course, probably more examples of mixes than "pure" forms.)

What I think was most jarring about _Just Do It_ to many of us wasn't simply that it was implausible for the government to allow the darts. Rather, that bit of the backstory didn't seem to fit the tone of the rest of the story, or it seemed a bit carelessly mentioned. I, for one, would have been fine with *no* explanation of how the government felt about these things and just gone with the thought-experiment (and I probably would have assumed some kind of cyberpunk-esque "corporate-run" world). But by mentioning it, the story seemed to needlessly bring up the question of plausibility.

It was a bit like a "midi-chlorian" moment; i.e., do we need a ridiculous scientific explanation for something we were happy suspending disbelief for? In this case, it was a moment of unnecessary rationalizing that broke me out of the "hypothetical" mode of the story. It just changed the kind of disbelief I thought I was suspending....if that makes any sense.

(And sorry to bring up another story in this thread...but it was on-topic for the outtro...)
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: FNH on May 01, 2007, 07:41:50 PM
I thought this story had it's good points.  Especially the "beating children with belts for things that didn't warrent it" angle, that was a nice touch.

The making your-own-grandson-call-you-Sir was another of those great love-fest moments.

Actually, after hearing those great moments I was surprised to hear that they sat at the same table to eat, I was thinking that the Grandfather would have had him out in the Pig-Shed fighting for him food.

Sar-chasm aside.  This well written, well read and evoked some really horrible images.  Sure the end was all sweetness and light but the Grandfathers change didn't "feel" real it was too quick. I see the Grandfather tripping at the bottom of the hill and beating the kid again.

I would have felt better if more time had been spent on the grandfathers transition.



Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Drwg on May 04, 2007, 05:35:12 PM
oh yes, I forgot to comment on the outro.  Yay for Implausibility.  The Martian Chronicles is one of my favorites and look what the science in that is like  :)

I'm glad someone mentioned The Martian Chronicles because this story had a very Bradbury feel to it. That said though, I didn't really get into this story as much as I would have liked. It was childhood wonder but wrapped up in strange tradegies of how the boy's parents died, has a somewhat abusive relationship with his surrogate father, and was obsessed with a shuttle explosion.

Somehow I found that boy's ability to fly more beleivable than his grandfather's change of heart.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: VBurn on May 08, 2007, 12:25:31 PM
Quote
Somehow I found that boy's ability to fly more beleivable than his grandfather's change of heart.

Well put!  The ending was a little to crisp and clean and the bow that wrapped it up was way to big to be believed.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: JoeFitz on May 21, 2007, 08:55:48 PM
I thought this story had it's good points.  Especially the "beating children with belts for things that didn't warrent it" angle, that was a nice touch.

I agree with you, FNH. This story has a sweet coating, but an overbearing, child-beating grandfather finally learns to trust his grandson and "fly"?

I felt that the author wanted me to believe it was just a matter of perspective - the boy believed he was flying and the grandfather believed the boy was jumping off the roof - but it wasn't ambiguous enough for me to believe this.

Given that he was reacting to a series of major traumas, including regular beatings by his grandfather, dreams of "flight" were an appropriate response.

Joefitz
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Thaurismunths on May 23, 2007, 03:53:35 PM
I thought this story had it's good points.  Especially the "beating children with belts for things that didn't warrent it" angle, that was a nice touch.

I agree with you, FNH. This story has a sweet coating, but an overbearing, child-beating grandfather finally learns to trust his grandson and "fly"?

I felt that the author wanted me to believe it was just a matter of perspective - the boy believed he was flying and the grandfather believed the boy was jumping off the roof - but it wasn't ambiguous enough for me to believe this.

Given that he was reacting to a series of major traumas, including regular beatings by his grandfather, dreams of "flight" were an appropriate response.

Joefitz

I get the impression form comments like these that a good portion of vocal listeners weren't farm kids and weren't raised by their grandparents.
Getting the belt when you did something wrong was just a fact of life. Being strict teaches respect and instills discipline. IMHO if a few more patents disciplined their kids we'd have a lot less trouble in the world.
Who honestly thinks that making a kid stand in a corner is going to make him/her understand right and wrong?
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: slic on May 23, 2007, 05:17:04 PM
Quote from: Thaurismunths
Who honestly thinks that making a kid stand in a corner is going to make him/her understand right and wrong?
That comment certainly deserves it's own thread - once I get home from work, I'll set one up and we can discuss why hitting a child after a certain age is pointless, and also how teaching consequences/right from wrong isn't a simple matter of standing them in a corner either.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: ClintMemo on May 23, 2007, 05:46:46 PM
I humbly suggest you read this thread first (Reactive Attachment Disorder).
http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=845.0

Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: ClintMemo on May 24, 2007, 01:47:10 PM
Physical punishment issues aside, the way in which the grandfather did it was proper:

You did x.
You know x is against the rules.
You know the punishment for x is y.
Here comes y.



Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: SFEley on May 24, 2007, 04:16:50 PM
Quote from: Thaurismunths
Who honestly thinks that making a kid stand in a corner is going to make him/her understand right and wrong?
That comment certainly deserves it's own thread -

I agree.  Or to be more precise, I really don't want that conversation to take over this thread.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: bamugo on June 15, 2007, 04:03:21 PM
This story made me so angry at physics. Much in the same way that D. Adams made me angry at physics when he described human flight in the same terms (missing the ground when you fall).

The simplicity of the idea is so attractive and compelling, that a person like me, whose favourite superhero is Superman simply because he can fly, is nearly moved to believe it was true! I have a strange deal going on (my Mom has it too), that whenever I am high up, overlooking a landscape, I have an urge to leap out into the open, and fly over the landscape. I so want to be able to do that that I nearly believe I could every time I am faced with that sort of situation. You can imagine how frustrating a story like this would make me feel. How jealous of fictitious characters.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Planish on July 07, 2007, 12:43:24 AM
I felt that the author wanted me to believe it was just a matter of perspective - the boy believed he was flying and the grandfather believed the boy was jumping off the roof - but it wasn't ambiguous enough for me to believe this.
My understanding was that the boy really was flying, and the grandfather knew it, but didn't want the boy to cultivate the talent. A bit like the reaction to the mutant kids talents in Wyndham's The Chrysalids.
Just to complicate things, the boy's method of flight is not a lot different from my own technique when I dream of flying. You don't simply just "think about flying" and take off. Things have to be just right and you sort of initiate [something] and after that it's like using muscle memory to walk.

Not so implausible when you've done it yourself, if only in dreams.
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Tango Alpha Delta on February 10, 2008, 10:40:05 PM
Forgive me for resurrecting this after so long just to add this, but...


The idea of "forgetting to fall" reminded me of when I was ~9-ish, and I discovered the concept of "dead weight".  You know, how if you try to lift someone who is completely limp, they feel heavier than trying to lift someone who has gone rigid?

I experimented with my sister, trying to hoist her off the floor while she either helped, or didn't.  It wasn't very scientific, but we were pretty sure that she was lighter when she stiffened up all of her muscles.

After that, I remember having dreams where I was able to hover, but I had to clench every muscle at the same time to become "bouyant" enough... and I woke up very, very sore.

Now, one question before I go try this new method... I wasn't clear on whether they ran UP the hill, or down...
Title: Re: EP102: The Angle of My Dreams
Post by: Unblinking on September 16, 2010, 05:10:58 PM
This one had all the emotional hooks, but they were just too visible for me.  I could tell what I was supposed to feel, but never really felt anything.  And I wouldn't generally call myself a cynic, but nothing in this story really convinced me that they could fly, so to me the ending is not really open at all, and is rather depressing.