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Author Topic: EP549 Outro  (Read 1392 times)
MommaBird
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« on: November 12, 2016, 01:45:28 PM »

 Greetings Fellow Escape Artists,

This is my first posting, of the first day of being a member, and the day I started doing the Pay Pal two dollar donation.

If I had heard this podcast before I had signed up, I'm not so sure I would've.

The story is entertaining, and has some clever aspects, but I had difficulty getting past why anyone would start splattering mud on the clothing of another person.  

There I go, already stuck on the great Sci-fi/Fantasy/Fiction problem… reality doesn't have to make sense, but fiction does!

I can handle time travel, I can handle computers doing the impossible...but there is no actress, anywhere, that I've ever known or have ever heard of, that would sully a costume like that. Maybe if she was jelous of the girl, but still.

The narration is kinda fun, I'm sure a lot of hard work went into developing those voices, but it's distracting from the content of the writing.  Unless a person is able to give a perfect delivery, it sounds sort of amateurish. I'm sorry to say that JJ because I really respect and admire the work you do. I do think your acting is really good.

Reciting Hail Mary on this site is sacrilege to the site. That woman is famous, more for the condition of her vagina, then she is for anything else. What the #&@*?!? I'm offened by that, and I for one, want to defend her memory and give her some privacy and dignity. I've come to Escape Pod to get away from the insanity of the real world.

I don't want to get along with Donald Trump, anymore than I want to get along with any other abuser,  and I don't want Escape Pod to tell us to do that. Shoot!  Nor do I want to think about any misogynistic bull#@&% prayer.  Don't get me wrong, I believe in the 'Love Message' taught by the Catholic Church, but it's practice has been somewhat shoddy throughout history.

I'm a bit of a weirdo; I'm 57, a retired sex worker, and a nerdy, Sci-Fi loving Grandma. I'm told my opinions are a bit outragous...I never want to offend, but I do believe in saying what I think. If I've gone too far, I apologize.

Thanks for your time and consideration,
Mommabird a.k.a. Lisa
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 08:03:02 AM by eytanz » Logged

This World Is Made Better Because Of The Generous And Talented Folk AT Escape Pod, and so is my life!
I'm doing the $2.00 a month, Pay Pal thing. You All Are So Great, You Even Figured Out  A Way For Me To Contribute, and Still Afford To Live In California.
acpracht
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2016, 07:41:46 PM »


Reciting Hail Mary on this site is sacrilege to the site. That woman is famous, more for the condition of her vagina, then she is for anything else. What the #&@*?!? I'm offened by that, and I for one, want to defend her memory and give her some privacy and dignity. I've come to Escape Pod to get away from the insanity of the real world.

I don't want to get along with Donald Trump, anymore than I want to get along with any other abuser,  and I don't want Escape Pod to tell us to do that. Shoot!  Nor do I want to think about any misogynistic bull#@&% prayer.  Don't get me wrong, I believe in the 'Love Message' taught by the Catholic Church, but it's practice has been somewhat shoddy throughout history.

I'm a bit of a weirdo; I'm 57, a retired sex worker, and a nerdy, Sci-Fi loving Grandma. I'm told my opinions are a bit outragous...I never want to offend, but I do believe in saying what I think. If I've gone too far, I apologize.

Thanks for your time and consideration,
Mommabird a.k.a. Lisa

Hi, Mommabird / Lisa,

First, let me say that none of my commentary was meant to offend. If it did so, I sincerely apologize.

It was a big part of the reason I made sure to clearly say that I was only speaking for myself and to encourage anyone who wasn't down with hearing a prayer that they might want to skip ahead (and, yes, I realize that depending on where you are and what you're doing, that might be hard to do.)

Second, if I have given any impression that we should compromise or "get along" with Trump or any other abuser, racist, misogynist, bigamist, homophobe or anyone else who advocates for hate I definitely want to clarify that impression right away.

Fight Trump and his cronies. Fight 'em hard at every turn and kick him in the metaphorical ass!

We all have freedom of speech and freedom of assembly and those are our strongest weapons against this demagogue right now. It's going to be a hard four years, but they are ones we can make just as hard on Trump.

When I was talking about the evil dying with our generations, I was mainly talking about the old white men who overwhelmingly voted for Trump. The distribution maps of voting trends for 18-35 year olds give me hope.

(If it isn't clear after this, I voted for Hillary).

All this said, I do also believe that part of the reason that Trump was permitted to come to power was that we tend to lump political opponents into broad generalizations and stereotypes and not listen to legitimate grievances and look for areas of compromise and middle ground.

This is what I meant by saying we are talking past each other and that we should resort less to mudslinging.

Instead I encourage to "heap burning coals" on the heads of our enemies by returning kindness for hatred. (From personal experience, this drives nasty people such as Trump insane.). Of course, I completely support yelling, shouting and shaking of fists in response as well...

Finally, let me talk to Mary and to Catholicism.

I grew up as American Baptist, so I had a quite negative view of "those Catholics" for a long time. What I discovered was that I was still thinking of the Catholic Church of the middle ages.
Yes, I completely agree that the church has been far from its message of love - sometimes for centuries upon centuries.
Without excusing or being a defender of any of those periods, I think that in modern times we have learned from those awful mistakes and become better at more fully living out the social teachings of Christ.

As for Mary herself... the Catholic view of her goes waaaaay beyond a pristine vagina. A few points:
-She had the courage and faith to accept God's plan to bring Christ into the world, even in the face of misunderstanding, negative judgment and condemnation of the world around her.
Think about it, as far as the society around her was concerned, she would have been seen as a "loose woman" for becoming pregnant before marriage. She had the courage and trust in what God told her - and amazing belief in herself and her own virtue - to keep going and believe that what she was told was true. She perservered, ignoring the insults the world might throw at her.
-She is seen as a defender of the weak, the dispossessed, the outcasts, which is a large part of why she is venerated.
-Without Mary, Christ doesn't come physically into the world as a human being. As such, without Mary there would not have been the possibility for salvation in the Christian manner.
-In other words, Mary was gutsy. She was powerful. She was (and, Catholics believe, still is) a strong woman. It's why we lift her up. It's why, in this episode, I felt the need to call upon her intercession.
I want a gutsy, powerful woman interceding on our behalf with God to take out this Godless, spineless, woman-hating idiot out of the position of power he just got elected to.
Trump's black outreach coordinator (Yeah, he actually has one of those) Omarosa Manigault got braggadocios about a Trump victory, saying "Every critic, every detractor, will have to bow down to President Trump. It is the ultimate revenge to become the most powerful man in the universe."
Well, first, off, no he isn't. But second off, we often call Saint Mary "Queen of the Universe." (Which always makes me smile. It sounds so sci-fi).
I called on the Queen of the Universe to help us defeat this pretender to the title of "Most Powerful Man in the Universe."
I hope that makes sense...

Finally, I'm sorry if my religious convictions offend you, but I have often listened to agnostic, atheistic and other religious views on Escape Pod without it stirring any offense within me. I might not agree with every view, but I truly believe I can learn from everyone. Moreover, their beliefs do nothing to diminish or invalidate my own religious beliefs (and, I may mention, vice-versa). I feel that if other hosts may discuss their own faith walk, it's fair game to talk about my own (if you disagree, I'd certainly be interested in the reasoning for why it isn't OK).

As a sign-off, I love your description of yourself, Lisa. Just from those few lines, I think you sound like a delightful person to know - with a wealth of stories and life experience to share. I'd buy you a beer any day and sit down to chat with you and just soak up your personality and the obvious joy in life.
I personally hope that my little "soapbox moment" hasn't ruined you on EP and subscribing to the podcast financially, as it will hurt my heart to know that you aren't out there helping us if you decide to drop the support.

All the best to your and yours,

-Adam
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Artiste212
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2016, 10:08:21 AM »

This is my first comment on this board, after listening for a while. I have enjoyed the podcasts and was considering making a contribution, but the comments in the podcast from the host made me decide against that. People have highly individual experiences with religion, and what may have been a source of comfort or an enlightening religious experience to one person may have been a source of cruelty, exploitation, or suffering to another.

I find that Escape pod has pushed me to think outside the box and explore new concepts and feelings. The recitation of the Hail Mary put a bitter chill on those feelings, and I haven't been able to return to listening since. Quite frankly, Science Fiction should be a genre that encourages free thinking and the inclusion of religious prayer that tends to inhibit that freedom of thought and should have no place. Personal expressions of that thought from the host are really not pertinent to the mission or values of a Science Fiction podcast, and I'm very sorry they were a part of that episode.

Yes, I have read all of the previous comments and responses, but I had to express my own thoughts because of how upset I was from all of this.

Thank you.
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DerangedMind
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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2016, 10:43:41 PM »

Artiste,

Without trying to minimize any experiences you may have had with religion, I have to take some issue with how you expressed yourself. 

I agree that some have experienced cruelty and exploitation behind the mask of religion -- behind any given religion and not just Christianity.  And also at the hands of humanism or atheism as well.  But, I'm hearing you say that religion has no place in science fiction. To me, excluding it totally is as big an issue as including it is to you.  To me, that is you being as intolerant as the people you are complaining about.

More often than not, when Christianity is included in a story, it is to help paint a character as backwards, intolerant or not open to new ideas.  And while I don't agree with that, I can accept that it is an easy caricature of Christianity.  I don't have to like how people portray it.  But to make it a taboo subject would be like me saying that if I'm offended by an aspect of society, that I should be able to say it shouldn't be talked about. I'm sorry that your experience with Christianity was that it inhibited freedom of thought.  That's certainly not been my experience, even growing up in a faith culture known for being conservative.

I'm sorry that you were offended by the prayer in the outro.  It was certainly more participative than other comments about religion I've heard in intros / outros on here.  But, I've never heard people complain if other religions are mentioned, or if people talk about how they don't believe in Christianity.  My feeling is that the outro was respectful, gave people warning about what was going to occur so they could skip it if they wanted, and did not attempt to bash any group or religion.

When there are special months here, people are reminded in the outros and the forums how we need to be more inclusive in the stories we listen to and the authors publishing them.  But, being more inclusive isn't just being inclusive of the things that are popular.  It also means being inclusive of things that you may not agree with yourself.

I consider the outros to be like editorial opinion articles in the paper.  I may not agree with them.  And they may or may not reflect the opinions of the management.  But, I don't want them to be censored.  I want to hear what they hosts think, and how they relate to the stories.  If I disagree with them, I'm free to express my opinion here, and potentially strike up a conversation about the issue.
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Sir Postsalot
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2016, 08:27:57 AM »

Throwing in my two cents on the subject:

I like when hosts talk about their personal experience, including their religion.  I do think that it would generally be better to not make it as participatory as this one did (i.e. I'm not sure exactly what participatory atheism would even look like, but let's say there was a mantra against religions?), but I'm not going to stop listening or stop supporting the show or anything like that.  I'm glad that people are speaking up if it bothered them, but I hope that if they thought the show worth supporting before they will consider that the show is the same show they had thought of supporting before, and does that few seconds of a prayer change everything that they loved about every episode before that?  

Consider that this feedback is being heard, the staff are reading these comments on the forum and I would venture to guess there is an internal discussion about whether they'll put a guideline in place.  I believe that the section was heartfelt and certainly not made with ill-intent, and since there had been no previous case to have feedback from, I feel that even if you were bothered by it, it is worth considering the intent and lack of precedent.  There are some choices that I would not suggest such easy benefit of the doubt for, but those are ones which are clearly rooted in malice, and I don't believe that was the case here by a long shot. 

Anyway, just some thoughts from a longtime listener (who is not a staff member)

« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 08:30:13 AM by Unblinking » Logged
matweller
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2016, 08:34:55 AM »

My folks always told me that it's okay to quietly, graciously accept a nice gesture for the kindhearted thought behind it, despite how it was delivered. If I can't, the problem is with me.
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eytanz
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2016, 09:39:30 AM »

My folks always told me that it's okay to quietly, graciously accept a nice gesture for the kindhearted thought behind it, despite how it was delivered. If I can't, the problem is with me.

That's true, but a statement made in a public forum (like a podcast outro) isn't the same as a private gesture. And the fact that someone has good intentions doesn't absolve them if they carelessly cause people pain. Which isn't to say that that's how I feel about this situation - it isn't - but this is, quite literally, a forum for people to express their reactions. As long as they are honest and respectful in doing so, then implying that there's a problem with some of them is not what we do here.
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Artiste212
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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2016, 12:11:15 PM »

Artiste,

Without trying to minimize any experiences you may have had with religion, I have to take some issue with how you expressed yourself. 

I agree that some have experienced cruelty and exploitation behind the mask of religion -- behind any given religion and not just Christianity.  And also at the hands of humanism or atheism as well.  But, I'm hearing you say that religion has no place in science fiction. To me, excluding it totally is as big an issue as including it is to you.  To me, that is you being as intolerant as the people you are complaining about.

More often than not, when Christianity is included in a story, it is to help paint a character as backwards, intolerant or not open to new ideas.  ...
Then you are hearing me wrongly. I did not say that religion has no place in science fiction. It may have an important part in the story, as religion has an important place in all of our lives. The problem also is not that religion was mentioned in a comment on the story. A discussion of religion is fine and of course may be a valid part of this as well.

What I found distressing was a person act of religious devotion that made us unwilling participants. It was unexpected and, as I mentioned, personally distressing to be included in an act of devotion. That is properly the purpose of other types of podcasts and writing, not a science fiction podcast.

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eytanz
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2016, 01:00:01 PM »

What I found distressing was a person act of religious devotion that made us unwilling participants. It was unexpected and, as I mentioned, personally distressing to be included in an act of devotion. That is properly the purpose of other types of podcasts and writing, not a science fiction podcast.

To be fair to Adam, he did give advance warning and suggested that people who wish to opt out of the prayer skip ahead. I don't want to dismiss your personal discomfort, but I think it's important to acknowledge that no one was tricked or forced to participate in the prayer.
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DerangedMind
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2016, 01:22:22 PM »

Then you are hearing me wrongly. I did not say that religion has no place in science fiction. [...]

Thanks for the clarification.  In this type of medium its easy to misinterpret people.

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Fenrix
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2016, 09:59:39 AM »

I really have no problems listening to a prayer as part of my everyday activities. I do this on a regular basis, regardless of whether or not it is the same brand of prayer that I would use.

Maybe it's more pervasive because I live in the South. Every official government function like council meetings is started with a blessing or a prayer. Every public and private potluck group meal is started with one as well. When I'm having lunch with someone who prays before each meal, out of respect I will stop any participation in a conversation while they do that. There is no proselytizing or evangelizing. Just a moment of respect acknowledging things that are important to the other person.

I do the same thing when my college roommate comes to visit. I buy from the halal butcher and make sure the meals follow those rules, and drive him over to the big mosque for services. I extend the same respect to the friends that observe Kosher rules and to those that observe pescatarian. All I want is that they extend the same respect to me while I enjoy my bacon cheeseburger. Everyone does and we all get along. These folks are my friends, and life's too short to judge and fight.

Disclaimer: These are my personal opinions and portions therein do not necessarily reflect those of EA blah blah  Smiley
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matweller
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2016, 10:31:16 AM »

My folks always told me that it's okay to quietly, graciously accept a nice gesture for the kindhearted thought behind it, despite how it was delivered. If I can't, the problem is with me.

That's true, but a statement made in a public forum (like a podcast outro) isn't the same as a private gesture. And the fact that someone has good intentions doesn't absolve them if they carelessly cause people pain. Which isn't to say that that's how I feel about this situation - it isn't - but this is, quite literally, a forum for people to express their reactions. As long as they are honest and respectful in doing so, then implying that there's a problem with some of them is not what we do here.
Sorry, I was just stating how I handled it. I'm not Catholic. I just smiled and went on with my day.
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Sir Postsalot
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2016, 07:55:50 PM »

I really have no problems listening to a prayer as part of my everyday activities. I do this on a regular basis, regardless of whether or not it is the same brand of prayer that I would use.

Maybe it's more pervasive because I live in the South. Every official government function like council meetings is started with a blessing or a prayer. Every public and private potluck group meal is started with one as well. When I'm having lunch with someone who prays before each meal, out of respect I will stop any participation in a conversation while they do that. There is no proselytizing or evangelizing. Just a moment of respect acknowledging things that are important to the other person.

I do the same thing when my college roommate comes to visit. I buy from the halal butcher and make sure the meals follow those rules, and drive him over to the big mosque for services. I extend the same respect to the friends that observe Kosher rules and to those that observe pescatarian. All I want is that they extend the same respect to me while I enjoy my bacon cheeseburger. Everyone does and we all get along. These folks are my friends, and life's too short to judge and fight.

Disclaimer: These are my personal opinions and portions therein do not necessarily reflect those of EA blah blah  Smiley

All that makes sense.  Its also not really the same thing.  I dont think its unfair to have different expectations of a broadcast as a personal in-person interaction.
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CryptoMe
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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2017, 02:24:50 PM »

I was not offended by the outro, but I was put off and perplexed. I personally didn't see how any prayer, and that particular one, fit in with the discussion of the election results. Perhaps if our host had included some of the thoughts he put down on this forum, such as the ones below....
In other words, Mary was gutsy. She was powerful. She was (and, Catholics believe, still is) a strong woman. It's why we lift her up. It's why, in this episode, I felt the need to call upon her intercession.
I want a gutsy, powerful woman interceding on our behalf .....
...I might have understood where the prayer was coming from. But even then, a simple mention of such prayers would have sufficed, instead of reciting a specific prayer, from a specific religion and denomination, and one that is so *very* clear on that religious denomination's beliefs, which makes it non-inclusive by definition. That's what I found off-putting. The recitation of this prayer made me feel excluded. And that is something I had hoped Escape Pod would never do.

Oh well, next week, different words in a different order as Serah Eley used to say....
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