EP119: Aliens Want Our Women

[ancawonka]

This was a good, entertaining story.  I found the reader's voice very seductive (and a nice break from the whiny-sounding women most of the male readers seem to portray), so I got absorbed quickly.   

I was mildly, though pleasantly, surprised by how straightforwardly it presented a woman who got what she wanted, without whining or getting a man to do it for her. The protagonist really wants to explore the beyond - it almost seems like she's less interested in Les (beguiling as he is) and more interested in the fact that he can show her the Universe out there.  She got what she wanted, though perhaps the job of ambassador might be a bigger side-effect than she was asking for.   The twist at the end was fun - that envy/jealousy could get people to collaborate and accomplish great things. 

[Zathras]

Loved the space travel aspects of the story and the relationship / man pursuit aspects of the story reminded me of Sex in The City, which is a good thing IMHO. 

Like ancawonka said, the narration was nice.   I guess I didn't take the story that seriously.  Good stuff.   

[Mr. Tweedy]

My intelligent and insightful wife has listened to this story and told me her opinion.  In sum, she thinks I am taking it way too seriously.  She sees this as satire, criticizing the flaws of women by exaggerating them out of all proportion, tongue firmly in cheek all the while.  She tells me that female jealousy is more powerful than I am giving it credit for, and that the story is not insulting women, but rather exposing a real vice through hyperbole.  She did not feel insulted.  She liked it and thought it was funny.

And I see her point.  (That's why I married a brilliant woman: I wanted a wife who would make good points.)

Although this doesn't convince me to like the story, it does convince me that I've been too harsh in my criticism on this thread.  Consequently, I strike the word "misogynistic" from my initial post.  Here: misogynistic.  And l change my "thumbs down" to "meh."

Meh.

[Monty Grue]

The opening warning of “tongue and cheek” describes the story well enough.  It can't be taken seriously.  There is more satire than misogyny.  As an aside: If Hollywood is the big thing Earth the has to give to the stars, then space must be traveled by beings with the mentally of tweens and teens, or we can hope the author was sarcastic here too.

[Atara]

I found the story to be kind of like a "popcorn" movie: all fluff and no substance. It was fun, but a bit empty, especially once the punchline at the end was delivered. I was left feeling like I'd bee told a lame joke that I'd laughed at anyway.

An aside: I tend to categorize stories into three broad categories: character stories, plot stories and theme stories. This didn't really fit into any of them, which I think is why I felt a bit lost after listening to it. The characters are sterotypes of a sort, and we never really get to know either one. There's no plot to speak of, and the theme/punchline doesn't ring true: human progress into interstellar space will be driven by jealous women...

Meh. "Blink, Don't Blink" was a much better story, I thought.

[Jonathan C. Gillespie]

This tale was well-written, but I took major issue with some of its premises.  I'm sorry, but I don't see how a visitor from another world winds up coming to Earth for an interstellar booty call and manages to avoid the wrath of any number of hate groups.  You would think the pope-mobile this alien would need in public would have to be meters thick.  I can just see the protesters lined up right now-- we can't even handle homosexual unions on this planet.  I don't even want to know what an inter-species union would engender.  Furthermore, I know the guy is supposed to look perfectly human, but based on his past marriages, we've no way of knowing what's under that visage.

I wanted to really like this one, and it did hold my interest, but the misogynist themes and sense of sugar-coated galactic relations really cost it some adoration.  The author seems to suggest that aliens initiate first contact once an admittedly-awesome document like the Bill of Rights appears on the radar, and although I found that premise really well-thought, this isn't first contact.  The alien flies off having essentially pulled one over on humanity.  Yes, we might indeed chase a group of such snake oil salesmen to the stars, but when we finally get out of our solar system we'll no longer be interested in punch and pie.  Think guarded relations and suspicions as the order of the day.

There's another story here, perhaps one that paints this character as an interstellar con man running from alien cultures he's already infuriated.  Drop the protagonist into the mix as the woman that sways him from his ways, and I think you'd have a more enjoyable yarn.

As a disclaimer, while I found the elements of the plot somewhat shaky, I still enjoyed this piece.

[Jonathan C. Gillespie]

Second disclaimer:  I have a hard time not over-analyzing inherently whimsical, light-hearted stories, so your mileage may vary

[wakela]

A history:

Women: This story is misogynistic.
Men: You're crazy.  It's just a bit of fun.
Women:  This one is, too.
Men:  Whatever.  Get me a beer.
Women: Not too fond of this story, either.
Men: Hey, the chicks seem peeved about something.
Women: Ugh. Have you read this one? Terrible towards women.
Men:  OK.  I think I get it...
Men: This story is misogynistic.
Women: You're crazy.  It's just a bit of fun.
Men: [gets own beer]

[wherethewild]

OK, I´m not as pre-riled up today as I was last week.

I still consider it sexist. If we hadn´t known the author was female, I´m pretty sure every other woman here would as well.

I disagree with Biscuit about it being feminist, although I do see her points. For me, an appropriate female role model in feminist stories is someone who garners respect as well as getting what she wants. I don´t respect Paris Hilton for acting like an airhead, although she certainly gets what she wants. There´s more to being feminist than just pulling the bad traits of masculinity and trying to repeat them - guys that do little else than chase big tits are also low on my list of reasonable role models. That said, I would be surprised if the author was out to make a feminist statement. I think it was probably more like Mr Tweedy´s wife said. Whichever, it still rubs me the wrong way.

[Mr. Tweedy]

There´s more to being feminist than just pulling the bad traits of masculinity and trying to repeat them - guys that do little else than chase big tits are also low on my list of reasonable role models.

Would you be willing/able to give me a short synopsis of what feminism is?  What I think it is and what you think it is don't seem to mesh.  I would appreciate a few "inside" pointers.

[swdragoon]

I would be intrested to know who your rolemodles are and why.

[Pink Shift]

OK, I´m not as pre-riled up today as I was last week.

I still consider it sexist. If we hadn´t known the author was female, I´m pretty sure every other woman here would as well.

In a way I am
 more "riled up" today
 than I was last week.
It appears
 from some of the comments
 sexist stories are OK
 if you are warned it is sexist
 or funny in some way.
That the author is
 female
 has no bearing on the whether a story is sexist or not.
A woman can be a sexist
 or anti-feminist or hold
 any beliefs she wants.
 That is one aspect of feminism. 
See the person for who they are first
 not what sex they are first.
 To paraphase Martin Luther King, Jr.
  - I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by their sex, but by the content of their character.

Adding
 an alien,
 a spaceship,
 different food
 and hyperdrive
 to the story does not change the sexist content of the story.

[swdragoon]

I fully agree that all people "should" be treated equal. i unfortunately have always put people in 3 categories (objective, target, obstacle) i was just wondering who you believed were good role models.

[Chodon]

I think the story is sexist against men because it claims men aren't smart enough to invent space travel.  I smart as woman!  Crap...

[wherethewild]

i was just wondering who you believed were good role models.

Interesting... I was just mentally flicking through books I´ve read recently and the only one I can come up with is Thursday Next from Jasper Fforde´s Literary Detectives series. So either I´m avoiding books with (what I´d call) feminist role models, or there aren´t too many around (or to my taste maybe).

It appears
 from some of the comments
 sexist stories are OK
 if you are warned it is sexist
 or funny in some way.
That the author is
 female
 has no bearing on the whether a story is sexist or not.

Which was exactly my point, and that of several of the commenters here. The overwhelming response on the first page was that this was derogatory to woman. Then a woman came in and said no it was empowering. To which the guys responded with confusion and rightly so.   I don´t wish to put words into Biscuits mouth, so perhaps she could correct me on this, but it does appear that she was treating/analyzing writing by men and women differently.

[wakela]

This discussion has taken up a lot of my shower time thinking. 

It's been said somewhere on the EP forums that whenever you have a black person in a story people assume he represents all black people, a gay person represents all gays, a women, all women.  But a white man is just a character in the story and doesn't represent anyone.  Is our problem with this story that we are holding up the woman character as a symbol of woman-hood and Biscuit and Mrs. Tweedy aren't?

On the other hand the ending WAS a literal blanket characterization of all women...

I don't know.  Women are rational individuals who are more than a function of their boyfriends, but I believe this in spite of women's entertainment, not because of it. 

[wherethewild]

Maybe we are all talking at cross purposes with definitions of women´s rights and feminism? Because one doesn´t necessarily mean the other.

I´ve never studied feminism or women´s issues or whatever it´s called at your university, so I´d appreciate input from someone who has. What I have done is worked for 16 years in two heavily male dominated fields and my opinion of women´s rights is created from that. There are areas about feminism where I´m unsure, areas where my definition wavers and my opinion changes. So I have no textbook definition except this: women deserve the same rights and treatment as men. I doubt anyone on this thread would disagree with that.

There are a couple of brands of feminism which I do have problems with (and which probably caused Mr Tweedy´s confusion at one of my previous posts) and is the reason I don´t really agree with the "empowerment" view of Biscuit. A woman getting ahead just because she´s a woman is equally as sexist as a man getting ahead just because he´s a man. A woman using sex to get ahead is just as bad as a man using it. You (theoretical man and theoretical woman) can both do it if you want, but don´t expect me to trumpet your "achievements" as great examples, nor respect either of you for acting that way.

My last grad student acted as the pretty dumb bombshell, batting her eyelids and playing up to the guys to get what she wanted. It worked, she got it. I don´t respect her for that, nor think that that was feminism or empowerment. That was manipulation and reinforcing stereotypes I´ve spent my life trying to work against. It made my job that much harder and my chance of being treated equally that much less likely. When I was a grad student, another in my lab was sleeping with the boss and so got extra technicians, aid, money, chances I never got. That grad student was male, the boss female. It was no different than the first example and got no more respect from myself or the others in the lab.

So, for me (and my personal brand of feminism), this story is not feminist.

[Russell Nash]

Umm. Hmm.

I guess my thoughts have been covered in bits and pieces here and there by other people, but I want to try and bring it all together in one post.  Being a white male, I tread lightly here. 

I don't see the story as being sexist.  I don't think it's sexist to describe what might really happen in a given circumstance.  I also think the perspective is skewed by an unreliable narrator.

If an ultra sexy alien landed and (after security issues were handled) said they were going to take a spouse, you would have millions of people running forward and throwing themselves at them.  Male or female doesn't matter.  I believe the author only chose a male alien, because nobody would be interested in hearing about men throwing themselves at a large-breasted playmate type.  You can watch that anytime a bombshell walks into a bar alone.

There's also the "15 minute of fame" factor.  We've seen what stupid things people will do to get on a bad reality TV show.  What would they do to be in the event that has captured the attention of the whole world?

Then there's the geek factor.  What would you do to be the first human to travel intergalatically?  Hell, for that one I'd do an ugly skank.  Just stare at the ceiling and think of other worlds.

On top of all of this we have the story being told by the women who was chosen.  The victor always makes the battle seem harder and the triumph greater.  The great throngs might have been only tens trying to be the wife and the others wanted to just see an alien in the flesh.

The real sexism is in the comment made by the alien.  So he's sexist.  Maybe it did work that way on another planet.  Maybe he's just full of himself.  Maybe other planets said, "interstellar travel is possible without warp drive or cryogenic freezers? We're in."  And since his plot of taking a wife there seemed to work, he thought it was because he's pretty and it had to be jealous women that did it.

Anyway, I had a bit of a fun time with it, eventhough I was shaking my head at times.  When his big line came at the end, I thought, "he's an ass".  I didn't think the author was trying to disparage women.  It was fun, but not a keeper. 

[Mr. Tweedy]

Mrs. Tweedy

LOL!  Her name's Jeanna.


Wherethewild, (I think) I agree with you 100% about everything you just said.  What you just said also had nothing to do with what I understand feminism to be.  We both believe that all people should be treated as full equals regardless of the genes they were born with.  We both believe that using sex as a tool to advance one's agenda is crass, degrading and not worthy of respect.  We don't need any -isms to agree on these things.  I think -isms just muddy the water.


And I think I agree with Russel and Wakela too.  Consensus!  That's a pleasant surprise.   

[Russell Nash]

Mrs. Tweedy

LOL!  Her name's Jeanna.

Jeanna Tweedy.  That's a nice name.

Wherethewild, (I think) I agree with you 100% about everything you just said.
And I think I agree with Russel and Wakela too.  Consensus!  That's a pleasant surprise.   

OK, our work here is done.  We can move on to the next story.

[Listener]

Just a thought on the main discussion...
Does anyone ever claim that something is degrading to men?  Or are men just expected to take it because it is supposedly a male dominated culture?  As I said, just a thought

Yes, and Yes.  I have learned this the hard way.

[Pink Shift]

Just a thought on the main discussion...
Does anyone ever claim that something is degrading to men?  Or are men just expected to take it because it is supposedly a male dominated culture?  As I said, just a thought

Yes, and Yes.  I have learned this the hard way.

We are all degraded
 when a
 woman,
 man,
 girl
 or
 boy
 is degraded.
Being degraded
 makes it difficult
 for the person to reach
 his or her full potential.
Then those around
 that person
 are denied seeing their full
 potential.

[Chodon]

Then those around
 that person
 are denied seeing their full
 potential.

How are those around someone that is degraded effected (or is it affected...I can never remember) by them not reaching their full potential?

[Pink Shift]

Then those around
 that person
 are denied seeing their full
 potential.

How are those around someone that is degraded effected (or is it affected...I can never remember) by them not reaching their full potential?

Not too long ago
 when segregation - official and unofficial - was in effect
 black children were not given the
 opportunities in education and life careers.
How many great minds
 didn't we have the opportunity benefit from?
Not too long ago
 the opportunities for women were limited
 to subservient roles.
We will never know what we missed.

And so it is today.
With stories like this.
That stereotypes are perpetuated.

[Mr. Tweedy]

Then those around
 that person
 are denied seeing their full
 potential.

How are those around someone that is degraded effected (or is it affected...I can never remember) by them not reaching their full potential?

Pink Shift on the money.

All members of a society benefit when each member achieves.  If any one member is arbitrarily held back from accomplishing all that they might have, then everyone in their society is denied the good things that that person might have produced and shared.

For instance, in the Olden Days, blacks were expected to be illiterate.  This was bad for blacks (obviously) but it was also bad for their white oppressors, who because of their bigotry were denied all the art, science and literature that literate blacks might have produced.  I often wonder how much misogynistic societies are shooting themselves in the foot by denying women their rights.  Fully half of the brains and hearts in such a society are held down and inhibited, and the so the whole society must be impoverished.