Author Topic: EP119: Aliens Want Our Women  (Read 44973 times)

Chodon

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Reply #50 on: August 31, 2007, 10:08:38 AM
Then those around
 that person
 are denied seeing their full
 potential.

How are those around someone that is degraded effected (or is it affected...I can never remember) by them not reaching their full potential?

Not too long ago
 when segregation - official and unofficial - was in effect
 black children were not given the
 opportunities in education and life careers.
How many great minds
 didn't we have the opportunity benefit from?
Not too long ago
 the opportunities for women were limited
 to subservient roles.
We will never know what we missed.

And so it is today.
With stories like this.
That stereotypes are perpetuated.

Dang, this doesn't happen too often, but I see your point.  Well put.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.


Russell Nash

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Reply #51 on: August 31, 2007, 10:25:47 AM
Then those around
 that person
 are denied seeing their full
 potential.

How are those around someone that is degraded effected (or is it affected...I can never remember) by them not reaching their full potential?

Not too long ago
 when segregation - official and unofficial - was in effect
 black children were not given the
 opportunities in education and life careers.
How many great minds
 didn't we have the opportunity benefit from?
Not too long ago
 the opportunities for women were limited
 to subservient roles.
We will never know what we missed.

And so it is today.
With stories like this.
That stereotypes are perpetuated.

Dang, this doesn't happen too often, but I see your point.  Well put.

It happens all of the time.  If we change it to economic terms, it happens on a massive scale. 

Poor areas can't afford good local public services especially schools (mostly local money).  These people don't get as good of an education.  Therefore don't get the same chance at higher education.  Therefore don't get the same chance at good jobs.  People without the chance to move ahead are more likely to commit crimes, do drugs, have unstable home evironments.  The unstable home environments makes it even harder on the next generation.

Sexism and Racism are problems, but it's practically a crime to be poor in America.



Pink Shift

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Reply #52 on: August 31, 2007, 01:35:40 PM
Then those around
 that person
 are denied seeing their full
 potential.

How are those around someone that is degraded effected (or is it affected...I can never remember) by them not reaching their full potential?

Not too long ago
 when segregation - official and unofficial - was in effect
 black children were not given the
 opportunities in education and life careers.
How many great minds
 didn't we have the opportunity benefit from?
Not too long ago
 the opportunities for women were limited
 to subservient roles.
We will never know what we missed.

And so it is today.
With stories like this.
That stereotypes are perpetuated.

Dang, this doesn't happen too often, but I see your point.  Well put.

It happens all of the time.  If we change it to economic terms, it happens on a massive scale. 

Poor areas can't afford good local public services especially schools (mostly local money).  These people don't get as good of an education.  Therefore don't get the same chance at higher education.  Therefore don't get the same chance at good jobs.  People without the chance to move ahead are more likely to commit crimes, do drugs, have unstable home evironments.  The unstable home environments makes it even harder on the next generation.

Sexism and Racism are problems, but it's practically a crime to be poor in America.

Good points. 

We should remember the lessons of history;
 150 years ago we had slavery;
  1930s Stalin killed million of Ukrainians;
  1940s 12 million killed in concentration camps;
 1950 Korean War;
 1960 China's Cultural Revolution killed millions;
 1970/80s Kamier Rouge killed 3 million;
 1990 Hotoues and Toutties genocide;
 2000s Darfore & millions of poor in China and India harmed by industrial pollution.

The basic nature
 of mankind
 has not changed
 over the past 150 years.
Civilization is a thin veil.

Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.

I imagine that yes is the only living thing.

e. e. cummings


Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #53 on: August 31, 2007, 01:58:30 PM
Poor areas can't afford good local public services especially schools (mostly local money).  These people don't get as good of an education.  Therefore don't get the same chance at higher education.  Therefore don't get the same chance at good jobs.  People without the chance to move ahead are more likely to commit crimes, do drugs, have unstable home evironments.  The unstable home environments makes it even harder on the next generation.

Sexism and Racism are problems, but it's practically a crime to be poor in America.

I feel a need to go on record and say I think that's bogus.  America is the place where a person can go from nothing and make a billion dollars through sheer diligence.  Examples abound.

Poverty is the blanket excuse that is used to justify bad choices.  "I was born poor, therefore my lifelong string of stupid and immoral choices is not my fault."  Bull.  My parents were poor: I spent part of my childhood living in a one-room camper.  And mine was the best, most stable family I know to have ever existed.

Anybody can become educated in America, and whether or not a person does become educated has far, far more to do with the value they place on education than with what school district they live in.  If I knew only what I learned from my 16 years of formal schooling, I would be dumb as a rock.  My children are not going to go to any formal school at all: We can teach them better at home.  Politicians like to talk as though all problems could be solved with a given number of dollars.  Not so.  In education, the importance of funding is nothing compared to the importance of the desire to educate and the desire to learn.  A poor kid who wants to learn can, but nothing will force knowledge into the head of a rich kid who doesn't care.

Sexism and racism are forms of discrimination: A personal quality over which the individual has no control is used to arbitrarily restrict their opportunities.  Poverty is not a personal quality.  In a free society it can be overcome by individuals who are honestly interested in doing do.  Many aren't.  Many are unwilling to stop their poverty-causing lifestyles.  Such people are not being discriminated against, they are simply reaping what they sow.

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kongstad

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Reply #54 on: August 31, 2007, 02:08:08 PM
This story would have been typical of the "old" science fiction. You could imagine it written in the golden age of science fiction.

We have clues in the story that could be interpreted in this direction. The fancy spaceship, the UScentrism, the careless devaluation of women all seems like anachronisms from the old days of science fiction.

Now today we expect other things in our stories. So what do we make of this?

If you choose to see this story as a hattip to golden age scifi, then it is quite a nice fun little diddy (and I mean this in the most respectful way - having fun is the alpha an omega of existence).

Still I find myself in two minds. To appreciate the story as a modern instantiation of golden age scifi I have to take a birdseye perspective on the story, and call upon our shared knowledge of history of science fiction and it seems like a reach. On the other hand without the metaanalysis the story just seems to flawed. 3 billion women driven mad? What about their spouse, SO's, lifepartners if they are gay, their children etc. And the punch line "Hell hath no fury like the wrath of a woman scorned", was a bit weak for all that build up.

So in balance I didn't hat the story, I even liked it, but it left me filling unfulfilled, and not in a good way.


As an aside, for a long time I was sure that to pass through hyperspace the alien had to use his wife as a human sacrifice, this would have made better use of the all women want a dark and handsome stranger stereotype.



kongstad

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Reply #55 on: August 31, 2007, 02:11:38 PM
Mr Tweedy

Your assumption that in America all it takes is hard work to be a billionaire is, I think, not correct. It is an illusion that is very common in your country, but as far as I know studies show that the US lags behind many other countries when it comes to social mobility. If you are born poor in the US your chances of moving to a higher social class is much lower than in many other developed countries.



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Reply #56 on: August 31, 2007, 02:28:38 PM
This story would have been typical of the "old" science fiction. You could imagine it written in the golden age of science fiction.

My guess
 for this to be the case
 is that the alien would have been a
 woman
 and
 the protagonist a man.

Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.

I imagine that yes is the only living thing.

e. e. cummings


Russell Nash

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Reply #57 on: August 31, 2007, 04:08:22 PM
I feel a need to go on record and say I think that's bogus.  America is the place where a person can go from nothing and make a billion dollars through sheer diligence.  Examples abound.

Name one, who did it without starting with family money or a first rate education.  Before you say Bill Gates remember that he was at an expensive first rate school when he dropped out to found MS.


Edit:  Actually Bill Gates doesn't work, because he was at least middle-uppermiddle class.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 04:37:49 PM by Russell Nash »



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #58 on: August 31, 2007, 04:40:04 PM
Off the top of my head and without doing any research:

Thomas Edison
Steve Jobs
Rush Limbaugh
And Bill Gates proves my point to T: He dropped out to make billions of dollars.  I would think that's conclusive proof that formal education is not necessary for success.

I'm not now, obviously, but I hope to one day make a living writing and doing films.  If I do succeed, it will have been entirely through my own efforts, not because I went to a school that taught me how to be a writer.  (In fact, I'd say my 16 years of schooling was mostly wasted time.)

I expect Steve is going to grow Escape Artists in to a decent business.  Did the state offer him a podcasting school?  No: He decided what he wanted to accomplish and started working.

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Chodon

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Reply #59 on: August 31, 2007, 05:33:19 PM
Dang, this doesn't happen too often, but I see your point.  Well put.
I meant I don't change my mind often, but all good points above...

Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.


Russell Nash

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Reply #60 on: August 31, 2007, 05:57:24 PM
Off the top of my head and without doing any research:

Thomas Edison
Steve Jobs
Rush Limbaugh
And Bill Gates proves my point to T: He dropped out to make billions of dollars.  I would think that's conclusive proof that formal education is not necessary for success.

I'm not now, obviously, but I hope to one day make a living writing and doing films.  If I do succeed, it will have been entirely through my own efforts, not because I went to a school that taught me how to be a writer.  (In fact, I'd say my 16 years of schooling was mostly wasted time.)

I expect Steve is going to grow Escape Artists in to a decent business.  Did the state offer him a podcasting school?  No: He decided what he wanted to accomplish and started working.

It's pretty pitiful that you had to go back to someone who died before the 20th century even started.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say that America was a little different in Edison's time.  Also Edison's dad had a decent job with the railroads.  In that time if you were poor and couldn't shoot your own food, you died.

Jobs was adopted into a middle class family.  The poor don't get to adopt kids they aren't related to already.

Limbaugh's father was a lawyer.  And Limbaugh isn't a billionaire

Middle class isn't poor.

Poor is not knowing if you're going to eat every day.  Poor means not being able to afford to go stay in a motel for a few nights, because the drug dealer next door started threatening you.  Ask Steve if he's poor.  Or if he would be living his current lifestyle without having gone to college.

You want to know what being poor is?  Go to a crap used car lot and borrow a mid 80's beater, one with dented fenders and primer paint.  Then go to the nicest neighborhood in your area, someplace where the houses start at over 750k.  Then drive down the street like you're thinking of buying something in the area and just wanted to see what these houses look like.  Stop for a minute in front of some and really look.  The cops will be there to tell you to get out within 10 minutes of when the first person sees you.  Mention to the cop that you have every right to be there and he'll tell you it doesn't matter, MOVE IT!!

I never said people couldn't move up and down the ladder.  I didn't even say a poor person couldn't move up and down the ladder.  I said they don't get the same chance.  It's a lot harder for them.  

Your story is very interesting, but that is what is called anecdotal evidence.  And it does not support the statistics.  When someone starts with anecdotal evidence, you know their arguement isn't worth crap.  How many times have you heard, "My (insert relative here) smoked all his life and he lived to be 90"?



Chodon

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Reply #61 on: August 31, 2007, 05:59:32 PM
I feel a need to go on record and say I think that's bogus.  America is the place where a person can go from nothing and make a billion dollars through sheer diligence.  Examples abound.
For the most part I agree with Mr Tweedy.  How far you want to go in America is only limited by how hard you want to work and how much you're willing to sacrifice.

I do need to add that the facts are that some people have to work harder than others.  Women and minorities are not treated equally.  Wage disparity for the same jobs shows this.  I have the advantage that I am fair-skinned and have a penis.  However, there are plenty of minorities and women who have overcome these prejudices and have succeeded.  They just have to work harder, and this is not fair.

I also want to make the point that it is not the government's job to try to remove this disparity.  They would fail at it (like they fail at almost everything).  It needs to come from the ground up, and I think discussions like this are making that happen.  My parents and most people in my community were what most would consider racist.  I realize how stupid and untrue most prejudices are.  The amount of racism has decreased by leaps and bounds in the few generations since the abolishment of slavery and the two generations since the removal of segregation.  I think in another few generations racism and sexism will be a thing of the past.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.


Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #62 on: August 31, 2007, 06:40:31 PM
You want to know what being poor is?  Go to a crap used car lot and borrow a mid 80's beater, one with dented fenders and primer paint.  Then go to the nicest neighborhood in your area, someplace where the houses start at over 750k.  Then drive down the street like you're thinking of buying something in the area and just wanted to see what these houses look like.  Stop for a minute in front of some and really look.  The cops will be there to tell you to get out within 10 minutes of when the first person sees you.  Mention to the cop that you have every right to be there and he'll tell you it doesn't matter, MOVE IT!!

You presume to know a lot about my situation.  For instance, you assume I would have to borrow such a car, when the one I drove to work today would suffice.

Your story is very interesting, but that is what is called anecdotal evidence.  And it does not support the statistics.  When someone starts with anecdotal evidence, you know their arguement isn't worth crap.
I would be careful using such strong language when you yourself have offered nothing but anecdotes.  Also note that you specifically asked for an anecdote and I was responding to your request.

And I am not claiming that all economic demographics have equal mobility.  I am saying they all have sufficient (not necessarily equal) opportunity to succeed in life.  To what degree various people use their opportunity and for what is not something that can be easily charted on a graph.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 07:13:08 PM by Mr. Tweedy »

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eytanz

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Reply #63 on: August 31, 2007, 06:46:24 PM
May I ask that this discussion be taken to a different thread? It seems to have little to do with the story and I'd rather it be somewhere where I can more easily ignore it.



Russell Nash

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Reply #64 on: August 31, 2007, 08:39:49 PM
May I ask that this discussion be taken to a different thread? It seems to have little to do with the story and I'd rather it be somewhere where I can more easily ignore it.

You're right.  I went overboard and should have moved my comments somewhere else if I wanted to get so far into it.

I'll finish in 50 words or less and if anyone wants to chew my ass out about it, I'll move it all to a new thread.

My point (very dull the way it way presented) was that so many people already have the deck stacked against them before they are even born.  I believe being working class or better is a far easier beginning than being seriously poor.  I think that holds across all race and genders groups.

oops 52 words.  sorry



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Reply #65 on: August 31, 2007, 08:47:25 PM
I think we need a "Pick a fight with Russell Nash" thread  ;D  (Although, I wouldn't be fighting you on this one, either.)


Russell Nash

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Reply #66 on: September 01, 2007, 06:58:10 AM
I think we need a "Pick a fight with Russell Nash" thread  ;D  (Although, I wouldn't be fighting you on this one, either.)

That's fine. Just no comments about the nose.



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Reply #67 on: September 04, 2007, 02:23:36 PM
I'm ambivalent about this story. On one hand, the title alone was a cue that it was satirical and not to be taken too seriously. Leann's reading was excellent and the story had good imagery.

On the other hand, I can't decide whether it's more insulting to women or to men. To women, because it assumes that they need to be manipulated with sex or jealousy in order to reach their greatest heights of achievement; to men, because it assumes that we're such poor representatives of our gender that women would throw themselves into the greatest scientific achievement in history just for the chance to widen the dating pool.  ;D

I was amused by the story, but it left a bad aftertaste. <shrug> Like I said, ambivalent.

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Roney

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Reply #68 on: September 04, 2007, 08:54:01 PM
Just catching up on some Escape Pod episodes and damn is this not the discussion thread I was expecting to find.  Did I listen to a completely different story?

Chick Lit clashes with pre-Golden Age Sci-Fi and I'm not sure which one comes off worse... but I mean that in a good way!  There's more than just the title to suggest that this is satirical: the female narrator searching for the superlative Mr Right, the "Buck Rogers"-style space ship, Mr Right turning out to be galactically rich, and wild US-centrism (with a couple of token nods to the UK) are some things that suggest to me that this is specifically a parody of two (admittedly easily parodied) genres.  It reminds me most of the movie trailer mashups popular on YouTube.

And it's fun!  If "fun" is still Escape Pod's number one selection criterion, this smart and playful story is one of the best-qualified so far.  IMO.

I wonder if what's throwing people off is that there's a lack of broad farce (other than the valued art of Hollywood) and some worthwhile SF mixed in with the junk that could have suggested a more serious story (the alien's first contact was handled well and I liked the line about his visit opening humanity's eyes to the treasures of Earth).  If I took it seriously, I would find it shallow and offensive in several ways.  If I took it as an observational comedy about women and SF, I wouldn't find it funny.  But as a send-up of genre cliches it's a joy.

Of course, I may be giving too much benefit of the doubt to the author.  I usually prefer -- where I have a choice -- to read that way.



ajames

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Reply #69 on: September 06, 2007, 10:47:33 AM
Thanks for the post Roney.  I think if I take a second listen or a first look at this story, I'll enjoy it more seeing it the way you did.



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Reply #70 on: September 06, 2007, 02:02:51 PM
Just catching up on some Escape Pod episodes and damn is this not the discussion thread I was expecting to find.  Did I listen to a completely different story?

Chick Lit clashes with pre-Golden Age Sci-Fi and I'm not sure which one comes off worse... but I mean that in a good way!  There's more than just the title to suggest that this is satirical: the female narrator searching for the superlative Mr Right, the "Buck Rogers"-style space ship, Mr Right turning out to be galactically rich, and wild US-centrism (with a couple of token nods to the UK) are some things that suggest to me that this is specifically a parody of two (admittedly easily parodied) genres.  It reminds me most of the movie trailer mashups popular on YouTube.

And it's fun!  If "fun" is still Escape Pod's number one selection criterion, this smart and playful story is one of the best-qualified so far.  IMO.

I wonder if what's throwing people off is that there's a lack of broad farce (other than the valued art of Hollywood) and some worthwhile SF mixed in with the junk that could have suggested a more serious story (the alien's first contact was handled well and I liked the line about his visit opening humanity's eyes to the treasures of Earth).  If I took it seriously, I would find it shallow and offensive in several ways.  If I took it as an observational comedy about women and SF, I wouldn't find it funny.  But as a send-up of genre cliches it's a joy.

Of course, I may be giving too much benefit of the doubt to the author.  I usually prefer -- where I have a choice -- to read that way.

I'm wondering
 if the story
 had a racist focus
 would you have the same opinion?

Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.

I imagine that yes is the only living thing.

e. e. cummings


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Reply #71 on: September 06, 2007, 03:34:53 PM
I agree with Roney...this isn't the discussion I expected to find.

I thought it was a classic SF story.  You take an interesting techo-cultural observation (which is by it's nature a gross generalization), you place it a few years in the future, and you narrate a few people reacting to it.  And even though it's 'in the future', it ends up reflecting current society.

I thought it did an excellent job of reflecting our current 'American Idol/'Bradgelina'-obsessed mass culture as a tool ripe for use by aliens.

The story set the protagonist up as a member of this mass culture, who was drawn in by the snare, and was more intelligent and observant that others that same snare had caught in the past.

And in the end, I thought it celebrated the power of women in society as both motivators AND doers...

I wonder if the dissonance of the story compared to the forums is a reflection of the subset of people here, as opposed to those reflected in the story...

Tim




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Reply #72 on: September 06, 2007, 03:58:23 PM
I thought it did an excellent job of reflecting our current 'American Idol/'Bradgelina'-obsessed mass culture as a tool ripe for use by aliens.

Hmph.  I think aliens would be wise enough to see that such culture has no use at all.  Unless the aliens planned to enslave us and needed a potent distraction to keep us from catching on, I don't think they'd have much interest in American Idol.

-------------------

Incidentally, I recently picked up the book "A Science Fiction Argosy" edited by Damon Knight from the local library.  The book was published in 1972, and all the stories in it are more or less from "golden age" classic timeframe.  I've been frankly amazed at just how disparaging these stories are to women.

Paraphrase of what I said to my wife about it: All the characters are male unless 1.) there is a specific reason why the plot requires a female character or 2.) the author wanted "cheesecake."  In either case, what few women appear are shallow, frail, weak-minded and have huge breasts.  Male characters are charismatic and proactive while females are passive and reactionary.  I find this so annoying that it's hard for me to get any enjoyment from the stories.  (In fairness, I didn't read the whole "Argosy," maybe a third of it; it's very long.)

This story does strike me as being in that same spirit, but that isn't a redeeming quality, IMHO.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 04:26:20 PM by Mr. Tweedy »

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Reply #73 on: September 06, 2007, 04:27:22 PM

Incidentally, I recently picked up the book "A Science Fiction Argosy" edited by Damon Knight from the local library.  The book was published in 1974, and all the stories in it are more or less from "golden age" classic timeframe.  I've been frankly amazed at just how disparaging these stories are to women.

Paraphrase of what I said to my wife about it: All the characters are male unless 1.) there is a specific reason why the plot requires a female character or 2.) the author wanted "cheesecake."  In either case, what few women appear are shallow, frail, weak-minded and have huge breasts.  Male characters are charismatic and proactive while females are passive and reactionary.  I find this so annoying that it's hard for me to get any enjoyment from the stories.  (In fairness, I didn't read the whole "Argosy," maybe a third of it; it's very long.)

This story does strike me as being in that same spirit, but that isn't a redeeming quality, IMHO.

I wonder if the stories are
 framed that way because
 it is focused at a particularly male reader?
I remember reading that
 the band Rush had few (5% or so women fans)
 and its music was described as "cock rock".
I don't think they
 specifically wrote their music that way
 but they know their audience.

Damon Knight was born in 1922
 and the stories were most likely
 written several years prior to the published date
 and the general public acceptance of women's liberation.
While I do not believe
 what you describe is appropriate
 it does lend some perspective into it.
I do not believe it would be appropriate
to write such stories today.

Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.

I imagine that yes is the only living thing.

e. e. cummings


DKT

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Reply #74 on: September 06, 2007, 04:33:50 PM
In either case, what few women appear are shallow, frail, weak-minded and have huge breasts.

I'm curious...do they actually mention breast sizes?