EP122: Transcendence Express

[Reggie]

Population control is something that would come from better education.

But whatever group happens to be in charge of various education programs will be educating with their own agendas.  So we know how religious groups feel about reproductive health and sexual education in this country, and we know who funds and runs many of the relief organizations in under developed countries......

[JonCayen]

This episode gave me hope. For too long have I been plagued by dreams of A.I's taking over the whole. Instead I was shown that they might help us grow up as a race. For too long i have been frustrated by the complex problems of global poverty. I know that if we really wanted to as a race to get rid of it we could. It would take a lot of people working together and long term commitment to it. I find it refreshing that there may be another way. I am not saying that the only way to better the world is only through education, but to me I think it is an important part. I saw people being given the tools to build a better life for themselves. I know that a magic wand cannot be waved and everything is made better. I know that it will take time, but a person can lose hope in that time. This show gave me hope, that maybe our problems can be solved. Sure you can say its been done with shows like Star Trek, but they never gave us a how. This story gave us the beginning of a better world.

[Rachel Swirsky]

"The propagandizing "

Is mentioning, peripherally, something the listener disagrees with propaganda?

If so, you have filled this thread with your own propaganda.

Re: $100 laptops:

I have a friend who worked on the OS for those as part of her thesis at MIT. Really exciting, interesting work.

[Leon Kensington]

Okay story.  Just one comment on it.  "You got your globalization in my scifi!"

Story:  6 out of 10                                 Reading:  9 out of 10 (Jack frakking Mangan!)

[sirana]

Big thumbs down from me as well. Partly because of some of the things MrTweedy has mentioned, but mostly because:
No conflict => no story

[Mr. Tweedy]

If so, you have filled this thread with your own propaganda.

True.  I don't deny that.

[SFEley]

I agree that education is important to the third world nations but just as important is population management.  Isn't the primary reason why of the third world countries are struggling due to the fact that they simply have too many people compared to available resources (fresh water, quantities of food)?

Education can improve these things.  There are farming methods that can be directly applied to increase food yields in Africa for small farmers (do a Google on "SG 2000 Africa" sometime); it's largely a matter of getting in and getting the farmers to try them.  Water's a hard problem, but there is technology to address it, and introducing better sanitation methods doesn't hurt.  And public health is more directly affected by education than by anything else.

As for population, it's globally observable that more educated populations tend to have fewer children.  The parts of the world where population is shrinking due to fertility rates are highly developed countries (Japan, most of Europe).  Last I heard, the United States was hovering at about or just slightly under replacement level if you don't take immigration into account.

So you can't just say "Never mind education, the problem is population management and food production."  Education is a part of everything.  It's critical to solving all these problems.

[Mr. Tweedy]

So you can't just say "Never mind education, the problem is population management and food production."  Education is a part of everything.  It's critical to solving all these problems.

That is absolutely true.  "Knowledge is power" is a literal fact, not just a trite aphorism for teachers to motivate their students.  Education means teaching people how to help themselves, equipping them to understand their own situations so that they are able to make better choices.  It is tempting to look at a problem like poverty as purely physical, as a matter of not enough of X in a certain place, and if we could just put more X in that place, then the problem would vanish.  But problems are rarely caused by a simple lack of X.  More likely, poverty is caused because the people in the area are either doing something to cause it or not doing something to fix it.

There are, essentially, two approaches to eliminating problems like poverty.  One is to toss money/stuff at the situation.  This attacks the symptoms, and (while often necessary) it does nothing to eliminate the cause of the problem.  The other is other attack the cause, to remove the corrupt systems and ignorance that lead to poverty, replacing them with just systems and knowledge.  Obviously, education is key to this: People who better understand their world are equipped to make better choices.

...But I don't think this story was about eduction, which is a prime reason why I don't like it.  What, exactly, were the Zambians taught by their European benefactors?  Math?  Civics?  Biology?  Agriculture?  Nothing like that is recorded.  What we see instead is the Zambians becoming dependent upon AIs that solve problems for them.

The key example is the boy trying to get his father to use more efficient farming techniques.  Did the boy get this better farming method through eduction?  Was he taught about plant life cycles, about irrigation, about resource management?  No: The computer ran a simulation and told him what to do.  The story does not end with the boy teaching his father how to be a better farmer.  It ends with him giving his father a computer which will run simulations and tell him what to do.

The Zambians are given machines who will do their thinking for them and give them orders to follow.  They are made dependent upon the charity of benevolent AIs, and–as you'll see if you run your own mental simulation–such charity would free them from the need to know anything at all.  What use is education or insight when the quantum oracle will reveal the optimum course of action?  The computers being voice-activated, there isn't even any need to be literate.

And so I say this story is all about giving stuff.  Education is irrelevant: The story would work out just the same if the Europeans had distributed magic wands instead of BIKOS.

[swdragoon]

mr eley is corect the problem is view point "education" dosent mean a 4 year degee at a major university. in this place it needs to start with 
 crop rotation, defence (often over looked and under scored) carpentry, pluming, food prep, and other things many first worlders beleve to be uneducated vocations.

[swdragoon]

still did not like the story

[SFEley]

...But I don't think this story was about eduction, which is a prime reason why I don't like it.  What, exactly, were the Zambians taught by their European benefactors?  Math?  Civics?  Biology?  Agriculture?  Nothing like that is recorded.  What we see instead is the Zambians becoming dependent upon AIs that solve problems for them.

I think this is a solid viewpoint, and a fair analysis of the story.  I don't think it's the only possible viewpoint and analysis; but I wanted to be explicit that my arguing about the primacy of education in this thread is a generality.  Saying it's important isn't the same as saying this story developed the theme effectively.  (I think it did, but it's cool to see thoughtful debate on the subject.)

[Bdoomed]

The idea that every African having a computer will solve Africa's problems is stupid.  This story is built on the myth that physical poverty is the root of evil, and that if everyone just had a certain critical amount of stuff, then we'd have peace on Earth.  Naive.

This story was not about having 'stuff'... its the idea of educating these people so that they can better their own lives.  For instance, they run the projection for becoming industrialized, and decide that getting 'stuff' would be a very bad idea.
This story is built not on the Myth that physical poverty is the root of evil, but its built on the fact that education will help people better their lives more than simply food/water/money aid from higher powers.  Teach a man to fish.

...But I don't think this story was about eduction, which is a prime reason why I don't like it.  What, exactly, were the Zambians taught by their European benefactors?  Math?  Civics?  Biology?  Agriculture?  Nothing like that is recorded.  What we see instead is the Zambians becoming dependent upon AIs that solve problems for them.

They ask the AIs to solve the big problems for them, like the projections.  this, however, is no different from the 1st world countries.  But the main reason for the bio comps are to teach the children.  they arent just solving the problems for the children, but the children are learning from the computers.  Notice that they realize that bettering their lives by becoming industrialized is a bad thing, and they are mature enough to realize that and stay the way they are.
Anyways, how is Zambians becoming dependent on AIs any worse than us becoming dependent on AIs?  In the intro, Steve said its the Singularity from the bottom-up.  This story has the US developing AIs, and one person giving them to the Zambians.  The only difference is that the US starts out at a higher level of education and money.

(i feel like im not getting my point across... for some reason i cant write clearly now... lack of sleep maybe?)

The Zambians are given machines who will do their thinking for them and give them orders to follow.

Because that is SO much worse than googling what you need, or looking it up on Wikipedia.  Its the SAME thing!  Replace American (or probably European i duno from experiance tho) children with the Zambians and you have the same situation.  Undereducated people who are using computers to learn, and are using computers to help with their daily lives.


that aside, i REALLY liked the part where the AI said that a better solution would naturally have to be beneficial for all.  Humans cannot be made obsolete. 

[Zathras]

So you can't just say "Never mind education, the problem is population management and food production." 

Gawd, I would never say that and I hope my post didn't come across that way.  I do understand that education is important, it just pains me to all these kids born in to a situtation where they will struggle to get enough food to make it to adulthood.  I would hope that this new, improved education will include family planning education.   

[mt house]

I need to write down that recipe, now what do I paint on the wood again? I liked it, although I could've done without the bedroom scenes. Sex sells, I guess, but I didn't think the story needed it.

[GrantHenninger]

My biggest problem with this episode was the sex.  I'm not one to normally say that sex is unnecessary, but the sex in this story was unnecessary.  It felt like a crutch used to drag out the story instead of Liona just explaining what she was up to.  I understand it's important to show and not tell a story, especially for a medium like podcasting, but a story that's really about an idea like this needs to do a better job of dragging out the story in a plausible, realistic and non-repetitive way. 

Another thing I didn't like about the story, and this is probably because of the medium, was that fact that time wasn't linear.  When I'm reading a book I have an easier time following time jumps but listening to one gets hard to follow along.  However, I didn't have the same problem with {Now + n, Now - n}, so it might have just been this specific story.

[darusha]

I had conflicting reaction to this story.  On one hand – hooray for techy near-future science.  And the story felt like a bit like a promotional brochure for the OLPC, of which I have a very strong (if highly unconventional) positive opinion. 

But I have to agree with most of the negative comments.  The technology sounds really cool, but I just couldn’t suspend my disbelief enough to buy it.  The characters were one-dimensional and pretty uninteresting.  The sex sections were lame, sophomoric, unnecessary and worst of all, not at all hot.  And I was expecting a different ending – a much more unpleasant one. 

Finally, it reminded me of all the things that make me uncomfortable about us “first worlders” trying to help everyone else.  That uncomfortable feeling is a good thing, I think, so because of it I give this one a solid 50/50 (look at all the great discussion it generated). 

[ajames]

A couple of comments on the comments

What about getting laptops for the poor in the US?

It's being done [or at least considered].
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2007/04/26/us_schools_may_join_inexpensive_laptop_project/

Where are they going to get electricity for the laptops?

I'm pretty sure the laptops are powered through hand cranks.

Laptops are just tools, you don't need them for education.

Tools are a large part of what has gotten us where we are today.  If you could own a house built with tools, or one without tools, which would you choose?

This story is racist

I'm beginning to think if Moby Dick made it on to Podcast somehow, we'd soon discover what a racist story it is.  Why is the white whale the only whale worth pursuing?

Steve's 'propagandizing'

Steve threw me for a loop the with his intro to the story about the school of lust.  Wait a minute, I thought, doesn't he have a wife and child?  Maybe his wife is this other podcaster he's talking about?  Is he divorced?  Didn't he just go on a vacation with his wife?  What's going on?

The upshot though is that now I know, in a limited way, someone who lives life a bit differently than I do.  Which IMO is a good thing, for it is one thing to know that people somewhere out there live differently than you do, and it is another thing to know people who live differently than you do.  While of course Steve doesn't represent all polyamorists, his openness about his polyamory diversified my world a little, as otherwise I would have assumed that he was a serial monogamist, like me.  If Steve's polyamory became the thrust of his intros and outros, I would probably tire of it fairly quickly, as I don't listen to escape pod for that.  But if his polyamory shows up now and then because it is part of his life, that's to be expected given the style he has chosen. 

re: the discussion regarding education and starvation

Really just a side note, and most people probably already know this, but by the year 2000 the number of people who were clinically obese was greater than the number of people who were malnourished.  And obesity is growing in developing nations, too.  Education about what we eat and how it is produced is important for all of us, as our U.S. tax payer dollars have gone towards subsidizing processed foods in the US [and exported elsewhere] for a long time now.  It is cheaper, per calorie, to buy junk food than healthy food.

[Listener]

I didn't like this story.

The echo-y quality of the reading was disturbing until I got used to it, and in places, the reader was halting, as if he'd recorded, re-recorded, and spliced, without looking at continuity of the recording itself.  He acted Liona well, though.

The story itself, I think, had a very misleading title.  I expected something like "The Train Job" (Firefly episode) meets "AI" or "Bicentennial Man".  I also found the description of the story by Steve (in the intro) a little misleading too.

As for the story itself... I agree with some who wondered about the Christian names, though I disagree about the racist angle; the fact that the main characters were white didn't necessarily mean that only white people could do what David and Liona were doing, IMO.  I also agree with the idea that the laptops were solving the problems for the Zambians, although the story did say the kids were running simulations, so I get the feeling that, had it been a novella, we might have seen the kids using the BIKOs to learn how to do the simulations.  As a short-story, the amount of tech that could be given to the reader while still remaining "short" was limited.  I also agree that there wasn't nearly enough overt conflict, although the fact that I'm American may mean that I'm missing the conflict that the author intended.

I also found the sex to be a little too gratuitous.  Did we really need to know that Liona packed a lot of lingerie, and also some sex toys?  Did it really advance the story?

The idea of the BIKOs was cool, and the tech explanation of them, as a Star Trek geek, made enough sense that I could appreciate how the BIKOs were built and how they worked.

Overall, I think the story tried to do too much, as activist fiction often does (not saying the author IS an activist, just that his fiction has an activist message).  Or, at least, to do too much in too short a period of time.  And that, for me, is where it fell down.

[Jim]

I also found the sex to be a little too gratuitous.  Did we really need to know that Liona packed a lot of lingerie, and also some sex toys?  Did it really advance the story?

I thought it made her seem more human, like Fox Mulder's addiction to pornography in early episodes of the X-Files.

[Listener]

I also found the sex to be a little too gratuitous.  Did we really need to know that Liona packed a lot of lingerie, and also some sex toys?  Did it really advance the story?

I thought it made her seem more human, like Fox Mulder's addiction to pornography in early episodes of the X-Files.

I never watched the X-Files.  *ducks*  I suppose you have a point, but I think the average reader might need it explained as "she packed that stuff, so she gave up room for some other stuff" maybe?

I have nothing against sex in stories.  I can't, since I write a little erotica here and there.  Just, like I said, I personally don't feel it developed the plot any.

[doctorclark]

The above comments re: education/globalization/developing-the-third-world have been a good read, and have articulated for me some of the concepts floating around my head as I listened to the story.  That being said, this story was so-so.  I agree with the numerous comments on lack of conflict (i.e. plot), and the characters were a bit bland for me (though Liona shows some dynamism by finding a creative way to sacrifice her immediate ambitions a little bit and incorporate them in a plan to be with the one she loves).  I can’t decide if I agree with the sex-as-gratuitous comments: the author uses those scenes (if ham-handedly) to delay the exposition of the AI laptops (i.e. those scenes are plot devices).

Also, the BiQCos thematically reminded me of the Young Lady’s Illustrated Primer in Neil Stephenson’s Diamond Age.  The small nation of Chinese girls midway through the novel, who each receive a Primer, would have undoubtedly had classroom dynamics very much like the kids in Trancendence had.  For all of you fellow techies who loved the Q-comp tech in this short story: I heartily recommend Diamond Age (which has more geeky tech than you can shake carbon nanotube at).

[Rigger]

I also found the sex to be a little too gratuitous.  Did we really need to know that Liona packed a lot of lingerie, and also some sex toys?  Did it really advance the story?

I thought it made her seem more human, like Fox Mulder's addiction to pornography in early episodes of the X-Files.

I never watched the X-Files.  *ducks*  I suppose you have a point, but I think the average reader might need it explained as "she packed that stuff, so she gave up room for some other stuff" maybe?

I have nothing against sex in stories.  I can't, since I write a little erotica here and there.  Just, like I said, I personally don't feel it developed the plot any.

I found the story entertaining but as many people pointed here, not exactly clear on some of it's concepts. It was hard to distinguish if the BiQcos were really assiting in the education of the young people, or if they were simply providing instructions and orders. I also disliked how Liona always changed the subject about her work and project constantly.

After all, a good relationship is built on communication. I'm sure the narrator would have been a lot more "into" their sessions if she would just talk to him, and treat him like a partner, rather than giving him teasing tidbits and then going for what she wanted.

I suppose it did give her character a extra edge in a sense, but as others have said before me, it did not come across as very useful or even interesting to the plot. Honestly I kept getting a feeling of "See? Geeky girls can be nymphos too! Look! They are having sex again!"

[DKT]

I don't have a lot to add about the story that hasn't already been said.  I definitely don't mind sex in stories and I think the sex in this story was used okay as a plot device, something that kept the protagonist from getting to his goal sooner.  But it would've been better if those double-entendres had not actually made me wince.  Listener criticized Liona packing sex toys and lingerie.  For me, that was actually the best sex part of the whole story.  It told more about her than the double-entendres did.

There's two reasons I listen to Escape Pod every week.  One is because I enjoy hearing SF/F stories I might not have otherwise.  Even if, like this week, the story didn't blow me away I'm still happy to be exposed to a variety of SF.  I give a lot of credit both to Escape Pod and Pseudopod for having such a wide variety of stories.  

The other reason is because Steve puts so much of himself into it.  Clearly, it's a work of passion for him.  If he didn't talk about stuff going on in his personal life, or didn't talk so candidly about some of the feedback he received from various episodes, I wouldn't like this podcast nearly as much as I do.  I'd probably still listen to it, because for me it's the most convenient way to get great SF/F, but I'm not sure I'd make myself late to work while it downloads on my ipod Thursday mornings.

I don't completely get the polyamorous thing.  Honestly, I've never been seriously exposed to it and I'm pretty sure it's not my thing.  But whatever.  I've never felt like Steve's tried to propagandize his views on me and if that's his thing, then I don't mind hearing about it.  Because even though I've never met Steve, I care about him and enjoy hearing what's going in his life.  He strikes me as a pretty humble dude, especially the way he deals with other people (myself included).  I've got nothing but respect for him and I appreciate him sharing different perspectives with me, whether they be personal or fictional.  

[SFEley]

I don't completely get the polyamorous thing.  Honestly, I've never been seriously exposed to it and I'm pretty sure it's not my thing.  But whatever.  I've never felt like Steve's tried to propagandize his views on me and if that's his thing, then I don't mind hearing about it.  Because even though I've never met Steve, I care about him and enjoy hearing what's going in his life.  He strikes me as a pretty humble dude, especially the way he deals with other people (myself included).  I've got nothing but respect for him and I appreciate him sharing different perspectives with me, whether they be personal or fictional.

Thanks, DKT, ajames, Mr. Tweedy, and everyone else.  I really do appreciate these thoughts.

For what it's worth, anyone who really wants to know too much about my personal life should friend me on LiveJournal.  I started personal blogging there in March.  Most of the relationship stuff is behind a filter, but that's just to keep it off the search engines; in practice I'll add just about anyone who friends me.  If you go back through the archives, you're guaranteed sixteen times the Surgeon General's recommended yearly dose of relationship drama.  >8->  And you'll see how much stuff I don't talk about on Escape Pod. 

As for polyamory: I'm not pushing it as a cause.  When the word comes up, it's usually because I like to promote Minx's podcast when I mention her; that's what podcasters do.  (I'm also "Steve Eley of Escape Pod" when friends talk about me in their podcasts.)  Anyone who really wants my perspective on it is welcome to ask, either privately or in a Gallimaufry thread.  Meanwhile, I'm not trying to tear down monogamy as a system or anything.  All relationships come down to who you are and how you treat people.

[Rigger]

All relationships come down to who you are and how you treat people.

Very true Steve.

I was raised in a polyamorous environment; I have been seeing the effects of that lifestyle and monogamy for decades. While I think both can work, both can just as easily fail spectacularly. Usually due to a lack of communication or honesty. I'd be very entertained to see people's opinions about the two relationship models in another thread.

But having recently listened to almost every episode of Escapepod; I don't think that polyamory has been pushed as an issue or a lifestyle choice for people to adhere to, I think it has been a nice glimpse into who you are, Steve. Honestly, you are perhaps the reason I enjoy the podcast so much, the personality you bring to the intros has increased my enjoyment, encouraged me to join the forums, and even helped me get back to my own writing projects to a certain extent.

Your excitement with your new partner is understandable, and encouraged. I just think it might have caught a few people off guard to see the enthusiasm. My primary partner pointed out to me that references to her site and projects seemed to occur more than most other plugs you have done in the past. However she is more sensitive to the subject than I am due to her dislike of Minx.

But this is just one opinion. Granted mine is tainted due to my partner's opinion, but I wanted to provide another prospective. I applogize if this somehow adds fuel.