Author Topic: "Welcome to ask"  (Read 33819 times)

Mr. Tweedy

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on: September 11, 2007, 08:59:12 PM
As for polyamory: I'm not pushing it as a cause.  When the word comes up, it's usually because I like to promote Minx's podcast when I mention her; that's what podcasters do.  (I'm also "Steve Eley of Escape Pod" when friends talk about me in their podcasts.)  Anyone who really wants my perspective on it is welcome to ask, either privately or in a Gallimaufry thread.

I have no interest at all in debating whether monogamy is better than polyamory.  Such a debate would be completely futile, since we'd have to define what "better" means in the context and for that we'd have to establish the purpose and meaning of life and to do that we'd need to decide whether or not this God person has anything to do with it, and that whole process probably isn't going to get very far off the ground in this format.  If anyone is ever in Bourbonnais and wants to discuss Life, the Universe and Everything, there's this cool coffee house called Moon Monkey we can go to.  I'll buy you a Nutty Chimp.

But I am curious to hear Steve's perspective.  Steve, you offered, so I'm asking.  What's your take?

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SFEley

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Reply #1 on: September 12, 2007, 05:04:29 AM
I have no interest at all in debating whether monogamy is better than polyamory.

Nor do I, but for different reasons.  I don't think the question can be addressed in the abstract; in the concrete, you'd have to ask "For whom?"

Different relationship structures work better or worse for different people.  I believe there are intrinsically monogamous people, who genuinely have eyes for no one else; and I believe there are intrinsically polyamorous people, who are happiest at the center of a loving network of people.  Most people are probably either somewhere in the middle or adapt themselves to culture and circumstance.

(Actually, to be cynical for a moment, most people are bad at both.  The majority of people who swear themselves to monogamy fail at it, through divorce and/or cheating.  However, those people wouldn't be any better at poly unless they changed their habits and perspective.   On the other side, the poly community has plenty of people who call themselves poly when all they really mean is "I'd like to have sex with a lot of people and be able to call myself ethical and enlightened for it."  I don't have much respect for that.  I think part of the problem is poor relationship education and a lack of good relationship models in culture.  But I digress.)


Quote
But I am curious to hear Steve's perspective.  Steve, you offered, so I'm asking.  What's your take?

Okay.  I have a couple of 'takes' here.  My take on polyamory in general is simply this: If individuals are capable of romantic love for others (and I believe we are) then we are capable of loving more than one person at a time.  It doesn't mean we have to; but we can, and we can be pragmatic and ethical about it.  It doesn't really matter if you're with one person, or two, or twelve; if you're honest, you communicate, and you're open to other people's needs, you'll probably be happy and make other people happy.  If you're not, you probably won't.  More people does make some things more complicated -- but that's just a matter of degree.  Monogamous couples still get jealous, have scheduling issues, don't always talk about what they need, etc.

That's general principle.  My take on me and my situation is this:

Anna and I have been 'poly in principle' for many years.  When we met in college, one of the reasons she stayed with me over the other people she was dating was because I was the one who didn't insist she date only me.  Since then, throughout our engagement and into our marriage, we've both had a few starts at relationships (her more than me -- hey, she's cuter) which never went far for various reasons.  It's not exactly an open marriage; we can't just do whatever we want with other people.  But we talk with each other and we're honest with each other, and when one of us really likes somebody else, we talk about it.  It doesn't happen often.

I met Minx in Chicago in March.  We'd corresponded in e-mail before -- she'd been asking to read a story for Escape Pod for a long time, and eventually did with EP091: The Acid Test.  In e-mail she said that if I was ever in Chicago we should do lunch.  As it happens, I was going up for Scott Janssen's and Deborah Green's wedding reception (Scott's our submissions editor, and Deb's read a bunch of stories for us; both are dear friends).  So we had lunch...and it became a long lunch...and that ended with us cuddling in my room and talking for a few more hours.  I knew that cuddling and kissing was as much as I could do without checking in with Anna.  Which I did, as soon as I got home, and she was fine.

For more on that initial meeting, including my emotional reaction to it, listen to Thing One.  I recorded it specifically for Minx, but phrased it so that it could be made public as well.  It'll give you a pretty good sense of where my head was.  Thing Two has a bit more about me and Anna.

Since then Minx and I have been together several times, had a couple of other occasions when we were supposed to be together but weren't, and we've had a lot of ups and downs.  She's still recovering from a terribly bad break-up of a years-long relationship, and that left some trust issues that we had to work through.  Trust in me, sure, but even bigger was trust in Anna to welcome her into the relationship.  The two of them have had strong challenges in getting to accept each other's communication styles, and both did things with good intentions that hurt the other.  They've been working through it: because they really do like each other, and also because they know it's important to me. 

Meanwhile, Anna and I are closer than ever.  My being attracted to Minx, and eventually falling in love with her, doesn't diminish my love or attraction for my wife.  She knows that.  There was no hole in my life before; this is something new that adds to what was already there.  Minx doesn't want to threaten my relationship with Anna; but honestly, she couldn't if she tried.  To use a poly label that I dislike but is strictly accurate, Anna's my primary.  If Anna didn't want my relationship with Minx to happen, it wouldn't happen.  She's happy for it to happen because she sees how happy it makes me. 

It works because everybody's honest with each other and because everybody wants what makes the others happy.  If Anna found someone else who made her happy, who didn't make her love me any less, I'd feel the same way.  Minx has come close once or twice and I've supported her.  She wants a relationship that's more local to her; and if it makes her happier and relaxed, I want her to have one too.  For that matter, I had a third relationship for a while: another podcaster I met at Balticon whom I won't name here.  (Her nickname in my LiveJournal is The Paper, because of the anime series we've been watching together.)  She came to Atlanta a few weeks ago, we explored things together, and decided we worked better as close friends.  Anna likes her too.

Is it complicated?  Hell yes.  Does it take a lot of time and energy?  Hell yes.  Has it had an impact on my work productivity, or on the Escape Pod slushpile?  ...No comment.

Is it about the sex?  Definitely not.  That's a long story that I'm not going to tell here, but suffice to say that if I simply wanted to have sex with more women this would have been very, very not worth the effort and drama.  I didn't have sex with Minx when we first met.  Nor the next time, nor in the next several months...  All I'll say is that I'm not doing anything Anna doesn't know about and feel comfort with.  (Nor is Minx doing anything with anybody else that I don't know about and feel comfort with.)

So what's it about, then?  It's about someone whom I got to like, and then love.  It's about Having Fun.  It's about a life that's just that much richer because someone else is in it.  It's about feeling wanted, it's about that twitterpated feeling you get when somebody new flips your insides out, it's about conversations, it's about caring.  It's about feeling really, really good when everybody is together and sharing and having a good time.  This moment at Dragon*Con had me feeling on top of the universe -- not primarily out of ego (though I won't deny we all had fun showing off), but because I could feel so much love and I was in the center of it:



Ultimately, it's because I can.  I can love both of these women, and people feel good and don't get hurt.

So why wouldn't I?

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FNH

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Reply #2 on: September 12, 2007, 07:43:13 AM
I'll buy you a Nutty Chimp.

I assume that's not an Insane Simian, but have no idea what it really is.  Is there a link/explanation forthcoming?


wherethewild

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Reply #3 on: September 12, 2007, 08:01:42 AM
Meanwhile, Anna and I are closer than ever.  My being attracted to Minx, and eventually falling in love with her, doesn't diminish my love or attraction for my wife.  She knows that.  There was no hole in my life before; this is something new that adds to what was already there.  Minx doesn't want to threaten my relationship with Anna; but honestly, she couldn't if she tried.  To use a poly label that I dislike but is strictly accurate, Anna's my primary.  If Anna didn't want my relationship with Minx to happen, it wouldn't happen.  She's happy for it to happen because she sees how happy it makes me. 

I´m curious, because I´ve seen this happen to two long term poly relationships I knew (both over 10 years with their primary): at somepoint the emphasis shifted and the primary became secondary. In both cases this lead to the end of the primary relationship. Isn´t that a concern? That at some point your desire to spend time with Minx outweighs your desire to spend time with Anna? And how does that then work in a poly format? Obviously in a monogamy that leads to the end of a relationship, but in a poly... would Anna be willing to play second fiddle, so to speak, from then on? Or would you have to agree to leave Minx?

Man, I have enough trouble ensuring communication works in a monogamy (albeit, with a real language issue). I think I´d pop a blood vessel trying to deal with multiple ones.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 08:05:10 AM by wherethewild »

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #4 on: September 12, 2007, 01:40:14 PM
I'll buy you a Nutty Chimp.

I assume that's not an Insane Simian, but have no idea what it really is.  Is there a link/explanation forthcoming?

It's a kind of cappuccino.  They stick amaretto and and hazelnut flavors in it, with a little bit of cacao, I think.  And something else...  It's pretty nutty and really yummy.

---------------------

I now see that debate here would be futile for more reasons than the one I mentioned.  More reason not to go there.

I want to clarify, though, to make sure I get what you're saying: Basically, you've got a "primary" relationship, and all other relationships are well and good provided the primary is cool with them.  The only firm rule is that all parties must be 100% honest with each other.

Is that right?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 01:58:22 PM by Mr. Tweedy »

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SFEley

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Reply #5 on: September 12, 2007, 04:59:24 PM
I´m curious, because I´ve seen this happen to two long term poly relationships I knew (both over 10 years with their primary): at somepoint the emphasis shifted and the primary became secondary. In both cases this lead to the end of the primary relationship. Isn´t that a concern? That at some point your desire to spend time with Minx outweighs your desire to spend time with Anna? And how does that then work in a poly format? Obviously in a monogamy that leads to the end of a relationship, but in a poly... would Anna be willing to play second fiddle, so to speak, from then on? Or would you have to agree to leave Minx?

Well, first, I don't see that as even possible under present circumstances for practical reasons.  Minx is a long-distance relationship for me; she's in Chicago, I'm in Atlanta.  We're lucky to be seeing each other a few times this year.  (Well, lucky and grateful for Airtran sales.)  The rest of the time it's phone and Skype. 

I'm with Anna every day.  She lives with me.  We're raising our child.  She's the one I cuddle up with in bed at night.  I'm closer to Anna than I could be to Minx for all these reasons and more.  Anna and I really understand each other, and our love is stronger for it.

I'm not going to be absolute about the future.  Yes, it's possible that all three of us might end up living in the same city someday -- although nobody's seriously looking at it as a priority right now.  If Minx moves any time soon it'll be for career reasons; she's not looking at Atlanta any more than other cities.  If she did live nearby?  I'd probably see her a lot more, sure.  I'd also hope all three of us would do things more.  I'd try to make sure Anna didn't feel neglected.

Might my affections and my priorities change?  I don't know.  I can't honestly say "No, never" -- I can only say I don't see it happening right now.  How would we deal with it if that happened?  I don't know.  Since it isn't happening right now, I don't consider it important to plan ahead for that situation.


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Man, I have enough trouble ensuring communication works in a monogamy (albeit, with a real language issue). I think I´d pop a blood vessel trying to deal with multiple ones.

Heh.  I do think that's one of the reasons it works for us -- Minx and I are both hardcore communicators.  I'm about as open with my feelings as any man's ever been; it's getting me to shut up about them that's the problem.  (See above.)  >8->  Anna's a bit more of an introvert, but she does make it known when she's okay and when she has a problem with things.  I won't say there's been no tension, but everybody's working through it.

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SFEley

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Reply #6 on: September 12, 2007, 05:12:49 PM
I want to clarify, though, to make sure I get what you're saying: Basically, you've got a "primary" relationship, and all other relationships are well and good provided the primary is cool with them.  The only firm rule is that all parties must be 100% honest with each other.

Is that right?

That's a bit simplified, but yes, I'd have to say it's a fair distillation of the situation for us at the present time.  I don't particularly like the primary/secondary jargon (I don't know many poly people who really like it), but sometimes it's accurate, and this is one such case.  There are other poly configurations that work for other people, of course.

Having affirmed that, I'm curious as to what you're thinking.

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #7 on: September 12, 2007, 06:37:13 PM
Having affirmed that, I'm curious as to what you're thinking.

Nothing in particular.  I just want to know what you're thinking.  I think it's valuable to understand diverse viewpoints.  It helps me to better understand people in general.  (And I hope to–someday in the distant and extremely hypothetical future–write some books, and I figure getting into people's heads will result in better characters.)

An absurd and extremely dorky analogy strikes me, but I'm just going to type is out and you all can go ahead and laugh derisively or scratch your heads in confusion: When you're playing Starcraft, it's good to get the "fog of war" off as much of the map as possible, even if you have no particular plans to colonize a given area.  It's beneficial simply to know what's out there.

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FNH

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Reply #8 on: September 12, 2007, 06:56:27 PM
I'm bemused and befuddled.  I hear/read what your saying but really I must be adding some unwritten sub text.  I cant truely understand the mindset, I keep seeing whats not being said.

As I see it :

[opinion]
You seem to have a relationship of planned pain.  At some point you intend to give love to another.  That can not but subtract it from your wife.  Unless you have clear and deliniated times when you dont give love to your wife.  If that were the case you would have times at which you could love another without the subtraction.  Every moment spent loving another takes away from your "primary" ( as you said, an unpleasant term ). 

It seems to me rather hurtful to tell someone you love them, provided no-one else takes that love away.  I dont see how that can not be unpleasant.

I'm sure you can "talk" your way through (thru) the issues, that sort of thing happens in a standard relationship, someone gets hurt/misunderstood, and you talk your way through it.  Yet if you do anything that raises or causes the problem, is that not selfish?
[/opinion]

I'm not trying to be imflammatory or hurtful, just express my point of view.


SFEley

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Reply #9 on: September 12, 2007, 07:12:40 PM
You seem to have a relationship of planned pain.  At some point you intend to give love to another.  That can not but subtract it from your wife.  Unless you have clear and deliniated times when you dont give love to your wife.

That right there is your fallacy.  Love isn't a zero-sum game.  It's not a finite resource in that sense at all.

People love more than one person all the time.  Anna and I have a child.  You've heard me talk about Alex before.  I love him.  Let's say we had a second child.  Would loving that second child subtract from my love for Alex?  Is it "planned pain" to have more than one child?  Would I have to schedule clear and delineated times in which I didn't love Alex so that I could love the younger kid?

Do you really think that's how love works?  When people get married, do they have to stop loving their parents?  If they love their pets, does that diminish love for other people? 

If you're going to say "That's different, those are different kinds of love" -- then the burden is on you to explain what's different between those cases and this one. 


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It seems to me rather hurtful to tell someone you love them, provided no-one else takes that love away.  I dont see how that can not be unpleasant.

But no one's saying that.  I love Anna and I love Minx.  There's no contradiction here.  When I started loving Minx, I didn't love Anna any less.  There was simply more love in total.

Does that make sense?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 07:27:10 PM by SFEley »

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SFEley

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Reply #10 on: September 12, 2007, 07:13:38 PM
An absurd and extremely dorky analogy strikes me, but I'm just going to type is out and you all can go ahead and laugh derisively or scratch your heads in confusion: When you're playing Starcraft, it's good to get the "fog of war" off as much of the map as possible, even if you have no particular plans to colonize a given area.  It's beneficial simply to know what's out there.

Actually, that's a wonderful analogy.  Good on you.

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FNH

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Reply #11 on: September 12, 2007, 07:30:23 PM
Does that make sense?

No, not to me.  Your being clear and explaining your viewpoint very well.  I hope I've been as clear about my viewpoint.

Yet your viewpoint is so foreign to me, your assumptions so removed from my own, and I assume your experience so removed from mine, that this "twain" shall never meet.

I wish you happiness.


Bdoomed

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Reply #12 on: September 12, 2007, 08:41:34 PM
well, FNH, i may be wrong but i think that those who take up polyamory have a different mindset from us who only think of monogamy.  Its different for them, easier to see love as infinate and able to really love more than one person.  I can easily see how Steve can love both his wife and Minx.  Its like he said, loving two people is just like loving your child, your parents, your dog.  You get a new dog, you love it.  you have another child, you love him/her.  you find someone else to love, you love them too.  Just because you got a new dog doesnt mean you have to stop loving your old dog, or love it less.  Sure there's the initial 'newness' of the dog/child/lover, but after a while that 'newness' love dies down and you love everyone the same.

Also, i believe people who are polyamorous are most likely more open to these kinds of things.  Anna probably takes the idea of Steve meeting someone new much more easily because she knows what its like.  For those of us who dont know what its like, we would probably get jeleous incredibly easily.  I know that I, for one, would probably get jeleous and fast.  its most likely not for me, probably not for you either, FNH, from what your sayin :)

But hey, live and let live.  Im happy for you Steve, as long as it never interferes with you releasing Escape Pod on time, that is.


by the way, LOVED the Starcraft analogy!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 08:56:37 PM by Bdoomed »

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #13 on: September 12, 2007, 08:47:28 PM
by the way, LOVED the Starcraft analogy!

This is one of the reasons why talking to people here is more fun than talking to people at my office.

"Eh?  What's Starcraft?  Isn't that a kind of boat?"

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Bdoomed

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Reply #14 on: September 12, 2007, 08:59:28 PM
yea... at Coldstone, one of the Muzak songs we have starts off doo doo dOO, doo doo DOO (tune of the original zelda theme) and it keeps repeating those first few notes, but then it goes onto some random bad song.  Anyways it does those first few zelda notes and EVERY time i want it go finish the damn theme!  its painful, so i have to finish it myself.  anyways only 2 or 3 people get it, and only kind of get it.  my best friends dont see why im pissed at that song, because they dont play zelda :(

anyways... that was off topic! yay!

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #15 on: September 12, 2007, 09:56:49 PM
Quote
  The majority of people who swear themselves to monogamy fail at it, through divorce and/or cheating

I don't necessarily consider divorce to be failure at monogamy. Anthropologists have known for a long time that while our society claims to practice monogamy, what we actually practice is serial monogamy. I don't really see a problem with that.

FTR, I agree that there may be an inherent dimension to polyamory or monogamy. A friend of mine posed that it's like the kinsey scale. You have people who are totally monogamous, people who are totally polyamorous, people who are curious in either direction, and people who can be happy either way.

Personally, I'm as monogamous vanilla as they come -- when I'm living with my male partner, I don't even find myself attracted to other men. But I don't think that's superior or anything. It's convenient for this society, sure, but not superior.



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #16 on: September 12, 2007, 10:19:55 PM
I don't have scientific evidence for this (and I'm not sure that it would be possible to collect any), but I don't think that people are inherently anything.  I think we are ultimately what we choose to be.

For myself, I can imagine living any orientation or lifestyle.  I believe I could be gay or bi or poly, or whatever, with a little bit of practice at any of those things.  I honestly cannot conceive any sexual act that would be impossible for my psychology to embrace.  But I choose to be monogamous.  The choice sometimes means following my impulses and doing what feels good, and sometimes it means denying my impulses and not doing what might feel good.

Monogamy is not something that I practice because I feel a compulsion towards it, or because options other than monogamy gross me out.  It's the behavior I choose, which is not the same as saying it is the behavior to which I feel most inclined.

...I guess that was related to the palimpsest's "happy either way" comment, in an indirect way.

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Reply #17 on: September 12, 2007, 10:24:19 PM
Quote
...I guess that was related to the palimpsest's "happy either way" comment, in an indirect way.

Well, that's cool.

I feel relatively similar. My sexuality is flexible enough that I could be lesbian, bisexual, or het. Do I choose to have heterosexual instead of homosexual relationships? Probably. It's easier not to have to deal with prejudice for one thing. And I'm certainly not immune to social messages that privilege heterosexuality over homosexuality. I don't think it's a coincidence that when I'm looking for a long-term partner, I look at men, and when I'm looking for people to while time away with, I prefer women.

However, not everyone feels the way we do. There are people who really aren't attracted to members of the same sex, or to members of the opposite sex. How can you erase their experience so glibly by insisting that they must be like you?



wakela

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Reply #18 on: September 13, 2007, 12:28:22 AM
I met a polyamorous guy at Worldcon last week.  Also, I may have dated a poly girl in high school who I had met her at a con.  Does the fan community have a disproportionately high number of poly folk?

Other possibilities:
- Most of the new people I meet are fans.
- Fans are more willing to talk about it (with other fans at least).



eytanz

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Reply #19 on: September 13, 2007, 01:08:46 AM
My guess is that there's an overlap in demographics - in my experience, most polyamorous people I know are middle class, high-school or college educated, and in their 20s or 30s. I haven't been to many cons but from what I see online, those are the main con demongraphics as well.



SFEley

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Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 01:54:38 AM
Also, i believe people who are polyamorous are most likely more open to these kinds of things.  Anna probably takes the idea of Steve meeting someone new much more easily because she knows what its like.  For those of us who dont know what its like, we would probably get jeleous incredibly easily.  I know that I, for one, would probably get jeleous and fast.  its most likely not for me, probably not for you either, FNH, from what your sayin :)

Jealousy is certainly an issue.  It would be a lie to say that Anna's had no concerns or trepidations at any time.  I've also had jealousy because I know Minx is trying to date people in the Chicago area.  I tend to feel threatened more by possibilities than facts.  (What if she no longer has time for me?  What if she finds someone who does everything for her that I do, but better?  Etc.)

So yeah, it exists.  But that doesn't mean it has to control people, or ruin relationships.  The thing I do when I feel jealous is to try to figure out why I feel jealous, and then decide if it's something better dealt with on my own or if it's worth telling someone else "No, don't do that."  In the case of Minx dating other people -- that's really my problem to deal with, not hers, because it's reasonable behavior on her part and my jealousy's more about insecurity than actual injuries.  If she ever got into a situation that I thought was bad for her or bad for me, I'd tell her.  I can't stop her from anything; she doesn't need my permission to do things.  We haven't established that sort of agreement.  But she does check in with me, and she cares about how I respond to things.

(In practice, the few times she has gotten intimate with other people, I've been very happy for her.  I knew enough about the people to know it was a good situation, I knew it'd make her happier and more relaxed, and I knew it wouldn't hurt what we have.)


Quote
But hey, live and let live.  Im happy for you Steve, as long as it never interferes with you releasing Escape Pod on time, that is.

Heh.  Speaking of...  I better get back to sound editing.

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Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 02:09:29 AM
Quote
my jealousy's more about insecurity than actual injuries

Totally. When I was in college, a guy wanted my boyfriend & I to join him in a poly relationship. I thought about it and realized I was waaaay too insecure to handle it. (In retrospect, I'm really glad we didn't agree anyway, as the guy was periodically suicidal and I think he wanted us to be his rescue, which is never a good situation.)

Kudos to those of you who can wrestle with that, and get past it.



SFEley

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Reply #22 on: September 13, 2007, 02:18:41 AM
I don't have scientific evidence for this (and I'm not sure that it would be possible to collect any), but I don't think that people are inherently anything.  I think we are ultimately what we choose to be.

I'd like to echo and amplify the end of Palimpsest's response here.  You may be ultimately what you choose to be, and I think that's swell.  I'm moderately skeptical about your flexibility unless you've actually tried some of these things, but whatever.  That's your business.  I will not argue with you about your inner self; you know more about you than I do.

But generalizing that perspective isn't just poor reasoning, it's actively oppressive and sometimes dangerous.  I've seen marriages torn up by mono/poly conflicts, and nobody's happier for it.  I've known of parents losing custody and visitation rights to their children because the courts won't tolerate a polyamorous lifestyle.  I've known people on the brink of suicide because they were gay in situations where being gay was intolerable.  They didn't want to be gay; it made them miserable.  Sometimes people destroy themselves over it. 

And you're saying they choose this?  They choose to feel things in absolute contradiction to the lives and cultures they're living in, and ruin their own lives?  Without knowing anything about how other people feel, just how you feel, you can declare this as a universal fact?  And tell us that all this suffering is based on whim?

...

Having taken a moment to breathe, I will refrain from a highly emotional response, and simply say "I disagree."


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SFEley

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Reply #23 on: September 13, 2007, 02:45:45 AM
I met a polyamorous guy at Worldcon last week.  Also, I may have dated a poly girl in high school who I had met her at a con.  Does the fan community have a disproportionately high number of poly folk?

Yes.  There's a huge amount of crossover between polyamorous people, SF fans, Pagans, gamers, kinky/BDSM people, LBGT, etc.  It's a vast Venn diagram of (mostly) white middle-class tech-savvy nonconformity.  >8->

In the ironic center of that diagram, you have the BiPolyPaganGeek community.  Actually, the fully expanded name is the "Bi Poly Kinky Pagan Gamer Geek" community, but LiveJournal wouldn't let them pick a handle that long.

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Reply #24 on: September 13, 2007, 05:31:50 AM
I don't want to debate this either, but I have some comments:

And you're saying they choose this?  They choose to feel things in absolute contradiction to the lives and cultures they're living in, and ruin their own lives?  Without knowing anything about how other people feel, just how you feel, you can declare this as a universal fact?  And tell us that all this suffering is based on whim?

On whim?  No.  Not at all.

I say people choose, but that does not imply that all choices are easy, straightforward, simple, understandable to outsiders or even transparent to the chooser.  Many times people don't think they have a choice.  Many people don't understand how to choose.  That applies to all spheres of life, not just sexuality.

I get the idea that you assume I look down with judgement upon people who do what I call sin: Well, they made the wrong choice didn't they?  They should have chosen better.  No.  Everyone has a story, and everyone has reasons why they make their choices, good or bad, and those stories need to be understood and respected.

This example is not directly related, but it's handy: Sundial Brigade.  Antonio makes a disastrously bad choice.  Was it because he's a worthless person?  No.  Was it because he likes killing innocent people?  No.  Does he deserve compassion?  Hell yes.  The dude needs a hug, and he needs someone to actually give a shit about how he got where he is.

I don't know if I can make you understand what I mean in this space, but if you think I'm being flippant, you're not getting me.  If you think I'm saying that everyone who is gay became so on a whim because they thought it sounded fun, you're not getting me.  And if you think my talk about choice is to make me feel good about having made better choices than other people, you're about 180º off.

However, not everyone feels the way we do. There are people who really aren't attracted to members of the same sex, or to members of the opposite sex. How can you erase their experience so glibly by insisting that they must be like you?

I don't deny your statement, I erase no experience, I'm not being glib and I don't insist on anything.  And why would I want anyone to be like me?  Do you suppose I consider the feelings I mentioned to be virtuous?

...I don't think either of you is likely to understand what I mean, so I think I'll retire to my dank little lair for a while.

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