Author Topic: "Welcome to ask"  (Read 34031 times)

wakela

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Reply #25 on: September 13, 2007, 08:55:49 AM
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Yes.  There's a huge amount of crossover between polyamorous people, SF fans, Pagans, gamers, kinky/BDSM people, LBGT, etc.  It's a vast Venn diagram of (mostly) white middle-class tech-savvy nonconformity.  >8->
And yet you can add "virgins" to the list.  Also, I haven't met a lot of homosexuals in the fan community, but I agree there are plenty of bis.  I don't think I will generate too much controversy with the opinion that fandom tends to be pretty inclusive and tends to attract those that feel left out of mainstream society. 

Race is clearly and non-personal choice issue, and I think sexual orientation is too.  Polyamory, and BDSM is a little more choisey, I think.  You can't choose if you are into it or not, but you can choose to try it, and then stick with it if it's your thing.   In general, I don't think straight people try gayness out to see if they like it.  It's a good idea to get clear the fog of war, and if you find a nice, strategic place you can try to set up a base there.  Maybe it works, maybe not.  But once the game starts you can't chose if you are the zerg, humans, or protoss.   (hold on while I nominate Tweedy for the Hugo for Best Metaphor).

So it seems that while the fandom community attracts those who find themselves outside the mainstream by choice, those that were born there stay away.  Then again, there are also a lot of disabled people...

I'm just thinking as I'm writing, so feel free to blow my theories out of the water (with a nuke, carrier, or a million hydrolisks). 



ajames

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Reply #26 on: September 13, 2007, 11:05:15 AM
...I don't think either of you is likely to understand what I mean, so I think I'll retire to my dank little lair for a while.

Funny, I thought someone named Mr. Tweedy would retire to a cage, with a sweet elderly woman in her rocking chair nearby, and a cat named Sylvester peeking in the window.

I think I get what you are saying, Mr. Tweedy, maybe.  However, in the context of this debate, and it is an ongoing debate, fine distinctions about choice are going to be overlooked by most people.  And to make a statement that everyone has a choice about their sexual orientation is going to be interpreted as meaning that, more or less, it is a conscious, rational choice one can make, a choice that can be made without undue hardship, or at least too much hardship, perhaps no more difficult than quitting smoking [as an ex-smoker I realize this is not a simple choice, either, but having done it, and knowing many others who have, I know it can be done].

And as to that understanding of choice, well, I think Steve's comments nailed it.

But this discussion is not one I really want to enter, nor the discussion on monogamy and polyamory, other than to say, wow, Steve, that is totally not how I pictured you in my mind's eye!  [I'm referring to the picture you posted in this thread].  Funny how we make mental images based upon a voice and what the voice says, and in this case posts I have read, too, and how incongruous the image and real life can be!




Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #27 on: September 13, 2007, 01:20:58 PM
Funny, I thought someone named Mr. Tweedy would retire to a cage, with a sweet elderly woman in her rocking chair nearby, and a cat named Sylvester peeking in the window.

No, it's a lair.  It's not really a very cool lair, though.  It hasn't got any piles of skulls or unholy relics.  Actually it's more of a basement...  It is dank, though.  That's something.   :-[

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« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 03:13:46 PM by Mr. Tweedy »

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Listener

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Reply #28 on: September 13, 2007, 04:38:10 PM
Do you think some of the pushback against the poly lifestyle comes from...?

* Misconceptions -- it does not necessarily equal true that people in poly relationships all have sex at the same time.  In fact, that's a very personal question I'm not going to ask.  But posit that just because a three-person poly relationship can have up to four possible pairings doesn't necessarily mean that Man 1 sleeps with Woman 1 and Woman 2 at the same time.  In fact, it wouldn't surprise me (and again I'm stabbing in the dark here, being mono) if in fact sex != 3 participants in most poly relationships.  After all, what Steve talks about a lot is love, not sex. 

* Jealousy -- because of above misconceptions, people "stuck" in mono relationships but wondering about poly may be thinking "hey, two men/women at the same time!  Awesome!"  Look, IMO if you're going to want to boink two people at a time, do that.  If you're going to love two people at a time, do that.  If you can do both at the same time, more power to you.  But (possible TMI) I'd rather personally devote all my energy in the bedroom to a single partner, rather than having to subdivide, and honestly, some women (I'm a guy, so I can't speak for the other side here) really need 100% attention to have the most robust sexual experience possible (end possible TMI).

Having followed this thread for a while, and the other discussion it spawned from in the EP122 comment thread, I think I understand what Steve is saying -- he loves both Anna and Minx.  And he is apparently capable of doing so, and they of loving him at the same time while not forcing him into an exclusive situation.  I think that's great.  It's not my thing, but it's great.

But then, upon reflection... there are two women in my life besides my wife that I love.  A lot.  One is married, the other is single but lives 7 hours away by car.  I would never go to them -- or to my wife -- and suggest a poly relationship, partly because I don't want to share my wife should she want to add another love of her own (if she has one) but mostly because I love these two women the way I do, I don't want to take any chances at changing that.

So yeah, I'm mono.  My choice, probably influenced by my upbringing.  But like anyone else who has an "alternative" lifestyle, I think the majority of at least semi-intelligent people, though silent in their opinion, are perfectly willing to say "okay, as long as you don't force your opinion on me in a way I cannot choose to avoid, I will accept that you are this way and I am a different way".  Unfortunately, the vocal minority tends to rule, which is why we have people like Fred Phelps.  (I actually did a research paper on this phenomenon.)

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Chodon

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Reply #29 on: September 13, 2007, 04:48:18 PM
One question about poly-amorous relationships: how do you deal with some of the issues that go along with sex (pregnancy, disease, etc).  If you don't know who some of your lovers are with how can you know you are being safe. 

I'm familiar with some of the tools at one's disposal, but none of them are 100%, and less than 100% safety when it comes to the consequences wouldn't be good enough for me.

Also, how is this issue addressed with your children?  I would think this would be confusing to kids since it's most likely different than their friends' families.

I have to say I am all for one's right to practice whatever they want in their bedroom, but it seems to me that polyamory just adds a lot of un-needed drama.  My wife is all I'm ever going to need, and I wouldn't ever want to take the chance of hurting her with the drama that could come along.  I suppose it's like playing Starcraft and knowing you have all the resources you could ever need right next to your base.  Why would you ever leave?

Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.


SFEley

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Reply #30 on: September 13, 2007, 06:05:07 PM
Not a lot of time today -- this week's EP is having more technical problems than any in a long time, so I'm still wrestling with getting the reading edited.  But a few thoughts while I take a break with the headphones off:

I say people choose, but that does not imply that all choices are easy, straightforward, simple, understandable to outsiders or even transparent to the chooser.  Many times people don't think they have a choice.  Many people don't understand how to choose.  That applies to all spheres of life, not just sexuality.

We may be down to semantics here.  To me your qualifiers are pushing the word "choice" nearly to the breaking point.  But that's going astray.  So I'll drop it and go astray in another direction.

Did I think you were being glib?  Yes, I did.  You give that impression a lot, Mr. Tweedy, whether you mean to or not.  You frequently sound as if you have All the Answers -- and, yes, to me at least, that does come off self-righteous.

I'm telling you this because you sound as if you genuinely don't mean to.  You do have unusual virtues in that you actually listen, and I've observed you to adapt your opinions and viewpoints based on other people's, so I don't think you're a bad guy.  I like you and I'm glad you're here.  (Proof: when people really seem dumb to me, I don't quote their feedback in the outros.  And I've quoted you by name several times.)  >8->  If anything, you just sound to me like you're an intelligent guy in your twenties.  I was far more pretentious and assumed far more omniscience in my twenties than you do.

If you really want to learn more about people, the best way is to ask questions and express a real interest.  You did that to start this thread off, and it was cool.  It's been a good discussion, at least IMO.  It's when you fall back to telling people how things are -- especially when you tell them how things are for them, not just you -- that discussion turns into argument.  You probably don't have a better understanding of the universe than everybody else; and even if you do, a book or a podcast might be a better place to present that than peer-based conversation.


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...I don't think either of you is likely to understand what I mean, so I think I'll retire to my dank little lair for a while.

I'm not encouraging you to retire to your lair.  Your participation here adds a lot of energy to the boards, and viewpoints that the rest of us don't have.  I think it's cool.  I don't think your ideas and beliefs are less valid than anyone else's, as a personal philosophy at least, and I like hearing about them.  I'll only speak for me here: it's just your presentation style that puts me off, and only sometimes.  Be a little less about the stone tablets and a little more about "This works for me."


(This, by the way, is me communicating my feelings and perceptions, hoping that it will help with conflict resolution, because I care about our relationship.  This is how I do poly, too.  >8->  I've only been called a "presumptuous little prick" once for it, and I fully deserved it that time.  If I deserve it this time, feel free to tell me.)

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SFEley

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Reply #31 on: September 13, 2007, 06:21:29 PM
* Misconceptions -- it does not necessarily equal true that people in poly relationships all have sex at the same time.  In fact, that's a very personal question I'm not going to ask.

Heck, I'll answer it.  Threesomes are great.  I remember the last time I had one.  In 1998.  >8->  (Tequila's great too.  That is not a non sequitur.)


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But then, upon reflection... there are two women in my life besides my wife that I love.  A lot.  One is married, the other is single but lives 7 hours away by car.  I would never go to them -- or to my wife -- and suggest a poly relationship, partly because I don't want to share my wife should she want to add another love of her own (if she has one) but mostly because I love these two women the way I do, I don't want to take any chances at changing that.

That makes a lot of sense.  You've put me in mind of my best friend R -- for anyone who reads my LiveJournal, she's the Immaculate Mistress who makes me clean up my house.  >8->  I've had a crush on R for many years; since we met in college.  She knows this.  She's also very poly, and is currently in close relationships with a large number of men and a couple of women.  In fact, at various times she's dated most of my social circle.  Most of the folks who come to my house on Saturday nights for Scotch and Doctor Who have been close with her.  I joke all the time that my social life exists primarily to facilitate R's sex life.  (Oh, and her husband is in relationships with some of the same people.)

But except for some weak attempts very early on, we've never seriously tried to date.  At this point I don't think I'd be romantic with her if I could be, despite my attraction.  She's much better for me as a best friend: she's the one who gives me perspective when I'm stressed about Minx or Anna, and listens to me on everything else in my life, and I do the same for her.  Heck, she's given me tips on kissing.  We do love each other, and we've said so, but I wouldn't want to risk some of the best parts of our friendship by bringing her so close that we don't have perspective. 

So yeah.  I get where you're coming from.  If you're happy, and you're making other people happy, then that's as good as you could ask for.

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SFEley

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Reply #32 on: September 13, 2007, 06:39:48 PM
One question about poly-amorous relationships: how do you deal with some of the issues that go along with sex (pregnancy, disease, etc).  If you don't know who some of your lovers are with how can you know you are being safe.

First: same way everyone else does.  Practice safe sex, get tested, disclose if you have STDs, make responsible decisions.  We've done that.  Heck, anyone who wants my STD test results, let me know, I'll send you a URL.

And who says I don't know who my lovers are with?  Minx tells me what's going on in her life.  I do the same. She's also far more conservative about safe sex than I am, and I respect that.  This isn't wild anonymous orgies or anything. At least not the way we practice it.  (Some people do, and they also have means to be safe.)


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I'm familiar with some of the tools at one's disposal, but none of them are 100%, and less than 100% safety when it comes to the consequences wouldn't be good enough for me.

The only way to be 100% safe is never to sleep with anyone, ever.  I'm satisfied with my risk/benefit analysis and with the trust I place in the people I'm close to.

Oh, and never share liquids with anyone.  I caught Herpes Type 1 (the oral kind) by sharing a drink with my two-year-old, who got it from school.  Pain in the ass.  But then, about 60% of the population already has it, and over 25% have Type 2 (the genital kind). 


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Also, how is this issue addressed with your children?  I would think this would be confusing to kids since it's most likely different than their friends' families.

Alex has quite a crush on Minx, actually.  It's really cute.  For days after she visits he's poking his head into the guest bedroom saying "Minx!  Minx!  Minx?"  (I usually call her by her real name, but we tell Alex her name is Minx because it's funnier to hear him say it.)

Right now he's two, so explanation isn't really called for.  When he's older, I'll be up front and honest.  What else would I do?


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I have to say I am all for one's right to practice whatever they want in their bedroom, but it seems to me that polyamory just adds a lot of un-needed drama.  My wife is all I'm ever going to need, and I wouldn't ever want to take the chance of hurting her with the drama that could come along.  I suppose it's like playing Starcraft and knowing you have all the resources you could ever need right next to your base.  Why would you ever leave?

Heh.  That's probably the far limit of the Starcraft analogy.  After that we get into hostile invading forces, and I luckily don't have a lot of that in my relationship.  >8-> 

When it comes to "needed" -- well, all relationships have drama.  Whether we "need" any sort of relationship at all is a somewhat more ethereal discussion.  Would my life be simpler with only one relationship?  Yes.  I've had that.  It's really really good.  But this is good too.  Don't know that I "need" any of this.  But I like loving both of them.  I wouldn't give it up.

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Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #33 on: September 13, 2007, 06:45:23 PM
People might want to bear in mind that there are like a kajillion different ways to practice polyamory. It's not standardized, because there are a lot of different needs and situations to consider. So the way Steve is practicing polyamory may not be the way that Samuel Delany practices polyamory or the way that Person XYZ practices polyamory.

(So, for instance, in poly relationship Y, the polyamorous group of 6 people may be closed, so there are no new disease vectors introduced, anymore than there are in monogamous relationships [one takes care to remind people here that adultery can be a huge disease vector in monogamous relationships, which has been a huge factor in Africa when adulterous husbands transmit HIV to chaste wives]. In poly relationship Z, any new partner may be vetted by spouses, and new people would do all the normal sexual testing that you'd do in a monogamous relationship. In poly relationship Alpha, everyone might be really lazy and never check and all avoid getting sick just by luck, just as happens with some monogamous people.)

Polyamory can totally cause a lot of drama. Of course, monogamy can too. We're used to the kinds of drama that monogamy causes -- for instance, the drama of adultery, or leaving an old love because you find a new one. We're not so used to the kinds of drama that polyamory causes because it's new, and we haven't seen them as much before.

When I was in college, I saw people practicing polyamory, and I went "OMG, they are so totally idiotic" -- because for the most part they were. Their relationships were disasters and they were hurting people right and left. One sweet friend of mine who was about 19 or 20 got invited into a relationship with a married couple in their 40s, who thought introducing her would solve their problem. Shockingly, it didn't. A marriage on the rocks with two people, was still a marriage on the rocks when they added someone naive and new. Babies don't work to heal old wounds, and neither do new sexual partners.

But what I was missing was that most of my monogamous friends -- including myself -- were totally idiotic about relationships, too. Our relationships were disasters. We were hurting people right and left. I could probably find a dozen stupid monogamist anecdotes to mirror the one above about polyamory.

I think polyamory is probably more prone to drama than monogamy *in our culture* because it's less understood. We have fewer rituals embedded in our culture for how to adapt to the problems when we come up. Polyamory is great because it's flexible and new, but it also means that there's less of a pool of experience to draw on when things go bad. Responsible polyamorists think a lot about the ethics of their actions, and try to minimize the drama that comes up.

However, I think sometimes polyamory is judged by an impossible standard -- one informed by confirmation bias. We monogamists assume that polyamory is laced by drama, so whenever we see some drama, we go "Oh, yep, there go those dramatic polyamorists." At the same time, we ignore the same stuff that's happening in monogamist communities, because it doesn't fit into the same narrative in our heads about what monogamy is.

(This is the way most stereotyping works. For instance, if you believe Asians are bad drivers, then your brain will notice when you see bad Asian drivers, and not when you see good Asian drivers or bad drivers of other races. It will put emphasis on the badly driving Asians and confirm to itself, "Yup, those Asians sure suck at driving.")



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #34 on: September 13, 2007, 07:11:49 PM
You probably don't have a better understanding of the universe than everybody else; and even if you do, a book or a podcast might be a better place to present that than peer-based conversation.

Oh, if only I had more time to write!  I'm slowly working on ditching this soul-sucking day job so I'll have a bit more time lying around.  As it is, it takes me weeks to pound a out a 5000 word draft, and I need to pound out about 10 to get them anywhere.  (Sigh.)  Watch for "Veritium", "The Wold", "Truesilver", "Suicide Note", "Permanent Daylight" and the epic series "The Inner World," all appearing somewhere... someday... maybe.

I don't think your ideas and beliefs are less valid than anyone else's, as a personal philosophy at least, and I like hearing about them. [...]  Be a little less about the stone tablets and a little more about "This works for me."

You don't understand that my "personal philosophy" cannot exist as merely personal.  It's universality is an integral aspect of it, without which it would not exist.  ...And I would say yours is the same way, although you would not agree.

Maybe it will make more sense when my novel comes out in 2052.  Preorder now!

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Rachel Swirsky

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Reply #35 on: September 13, 2007, 07:17:07 PM
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although you would not agree.

I'm not sure you necessarily understand relativism -- although there are really important differences between what Steve believes and what I believe, so I shouldn't be taken as speaking for him.

For instance, I believe in a universal morality, too -- it's just plain WRONG to enslave other people, to mutilate other people, to create systems that oppress people based on incidental factors, and so on. I believe that because I believe that system of morality can be derived from human behavior, thought, and suffering.

Within that, I'm going to make radically different distinctions than you do. For instance, I think you're immoral because you refuse to live and let live as regards homosexuality. Also, I would never want to dictate your religion, even though I think your interpretation of it is immoral -- but I might want to limit some of its public effects. For instance if you were a radical muslim who believed in infant female genital mutilation, which of course you're not, I would advocate for disallowing that until the infant is an adult & able to make her own decisions about entering the religion. (side note: of course there are many varieties of islam that don't practice FGM and find it anethema. there are also those that incorporate what is fundamentally a cultural practice into their religion.)

On the other hand, you and your partners could have all the sex you want in any way you want and announce it all you like, and I might roll my eyes and switch the TV channel as it were, but I wouldn't care on a moral level (as long as you weren't mutilating, enslaving, oppressing each other, etc.).

This is mostly a derail. I just wanted to make the point that it's not like liberals -- or atheists -- think nothing and no one is immoral.

--

I want to add, I don't mean this in a nasty way. I bear you no ill will, Mr. Tweedy. But if we're talking about applied systems of morality, I think some of your behaviors are immoral. I'm sure you think the same of mine. Fair 'nuff, but we can still talk and enjoy spec fic. Yay. :)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 07:27:46 PM by palimpsest »



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Reply #36 on: September 13, 2007, 07:43:37 PM
Also, how is this issue addressed with your children?  I would think this would be confusing to kids since it's most likely different than their friends' families.

Alex has quite a crush on Minx, actually.  It's really cute.  For days after she visits he's poking his head into the guest bedroom saying "Minx!  Minx!  Minx?"  (I usually call her by her real name, but we tell Alex her name is Minx because it's funnier to hear him say it.)

Right now he's two, so explanation isn't really called for.  When he's older, I'll be up front and honest.  What else would I do?

I think people assume that children are more fragile than they really are. The last generation in the United States that I have seen start to enter their teen years honestly scare me. They do not have nearly the same level of sexual education (I knew what a condom was by the time I was 13), and they come across as spoiled children with little to no discipline. I realize this makes me sound like a crotchety old man, but the last time I went out to eat, kids seemed more interested in their hand held games than in interacting with anyone. It honestly shocked me.

But behavioral conditioning of human larva aside, honesty doesn't hurt. As I said before, I grew up in a poly environment; ironically enough it was a "Bi Poly Kinky Pagan Gamer Geek" sorta community. It was filled with brilliant minds, and fun people. In fact, it led me to a personal conclusion that all geeks are kinky, one way or another. Whether or not that assumption is correct, I cannot say. But shows like Lexx and Farscape only cement my perception.

When it comes to being raised in an environment like that, my friends (who also had poly parents) and I got to see a lot of things that helped me with our own personal relationships. We saw some of the nastiest breakups of poly couples. Horrible fights, and incredible levels of jealousy. Much to my amusement, it was always the same problem: lack of trust, and lack of communication. We learned a lot watching my parents and their friends try and make polyamory work; they made glaring mistakes in the dating and courtship process that taught me a lot about human nature and relationships.

On the other side of things, my friends who's parents were monogamous seemed to be downright clueless about how to be open and honest with another person. I could tell that their parents did not explain or communicate anything about relationships because theirs were "normal" and did not require any explanation. I personally felt happy that polyamorous parents took the time to explain how their love life was different from other families. Sexuality was not a taboo, but neither was it flaunted. It was simply part of who people were.

Now, I don't have the opinion that monogamous relationships are somehow less valid than polyamory, nor do I think that there is anything wrong with monogamous people, but I did see the difference in how my friends matured.

It sort of forces you to keep an open mind when you are growing up with poly parents in a poly community. You might come home one night to discover your best friend's mother is now a little closer to the family then she was a week ago.



eytanz

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Reply #37 on: September 13, 2007, 08:07:48 PM
I met Minx in Chicago in March.  We'd corresponded in e-mail before -- she'd been asking to read a story for Escape Pod for a long time, and eventually did with EP091: The Acid Test.  In e-mail she said that if I was ever in Chicago we should do lunch.  As it happens, I was going up for Scott Janssen's and Deborah Green's wedding reception (Scott's our submissions editor, and Deb's read a bunch of stories for us; both are dear friends).  So we had lunch...and it became a long lunch...and that ended with us cuddling in my room and talking for a few more hours.  I knew that cuddling and kissing was as much as I could do without checking in with Anna.  Which I did, as soon as I got home, and she was fine.

Just as an example of how different people are different, it suddenly occured to me that I could never be in Anna's position here - while I'm just coming out a relationship (which ended for reasons that had nothing to do with any third person, except perhaps our parents), if my girlfriend would have been away at a conference or something, and she had a rough day and wanted to work out some tension and found some random person and fucked him, I wouldn't have cared much at all (assuming safe sex). If she would have met an acquintance and ended up cuddling and talking for several hours - I would have been insanely jealous.



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #38 on: September 13, 2007, 09:11:19 PM
For instance, I believe in a universal morality, too -- it's just plain WRONG to enslave other people, to mutilate other people, to create systems that oppress people based on incidental factors, and so on. I believe that because I believe that system of morality can be derived from human behavior, thought, and suffering.

Within that, I'm going to make radically different distinctions than you do. For instance, I think you're immoral because you refuse to live and let live as regards homosexuality. Also, I would never want to dictate your religion, even though I think your interpretation of it is immoral -- but I might want to limit some of its public effects. For instance if you were a radical muslim who believed in infant female genital mutilation, which of course you're not, I would advocate for disallowing that until the infant is an adult & able to make her own decisions about entering the religion. (side note: of course there are many varieties of islam that don't practice FGM and find it anethema. there are also those that incorporate what is fundamentally a cultural practice into their religion.)

I really don't understand how you call yourself a relativist and claim there are no moral absolutes while making statements like this.  Is it always wrong to mutilate little girls' genitals?  Even if society at large approves of the practice?  Even if everyone within 1000 miles thinks it's not only acceptable, but necessary?  Do you allow for gray in this area?

-------------

For clarification:

When I say "monogamy," I do not mean sex with only one person at a time.  I mean sex with one person ever*.  Monogamy and serial monogamy are different ideas.

*With the exception of if a spouse dies, of course.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 03:50:28 AM by Mr. Tweedy »

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Reply #39 on: September 14, 2007, 09:13:16 AM
When I say "monogamy," I do not mean sex with only one person at a time.  I mean sex with one person ever*.  Monogamy and serial monogamy are different ideas.

Oh wow, My wife and I are extremely grateful to eachother for having had previous partners.  Technique aside, and that is a BIG aside, sex is a massive factor on how a relationship works.  I don't believe that a long term relationship can be held together by sex, but I do believe that bad sex can destroy a relationship.  Just like there is a learning of how to interact with friends and how a relationship works, there is a learning of how to have sex.  And then after you have learned how to be with someone, sometimes sexual-personalities don't fit.  Sex with someone you love is such an intimate thing, that things that are maybe small annoyances in normal life can be magnified to levels beyond what is acceptable.  (Don't know if my point is getting across, but I don't have the time right now for a rewrite.)

My wife and I entered our relationship battered but educated by previous loves.  When we proceeded to the more physical aspects of our relationship, we both found a confirmation of what we saw in the other.  Because of our experiences there were no fake walls of what we thought we should do, or stumbles caused by uncertainty.  There was only us, ready to explore and be explored.  (That got a little sappy)

Anyway, I was never interested in the virgins.  Too many headaches.



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Reply #40 on: September 14, 2007, 09:21:16 AM
Oh wow, My wife and I are extremely grateful to eachother for having had previous partners. 

I agree. My husband and I learnt so much from having had previous partners and things that went WRONG, that now we can actually work through stuff healthily. And I´m not talking just sex either (although I doubt there´s an adult around that will disagree that a happy sex life is viatl to a functional relationship - unless you´re asexual and you have an asexual partner and yes, there are a lot of asexual folk around too).

I look at my friend who married her high school sweetheart, and see how ill prepared the two of them are for problems in their relationship. They have never had varied experiences to teach them the best way of interacting with one another and so the problems they have are (in my view) just stupid and juvenile ones that my husband and I ARE equipped to work through, solve and come out better for it.

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Reply #41 on: September 14, 2007, 04:20:29 PM
Oh wow, My wife and I are extremely grateful to eachother for having had previous partners. 
I look at my friend who married her high school sweetheart, and see how ill prepared the two of them are for problems in their relationship. They have never had varied experiences to teach them the best way of interacting with one another and so the problems they have are (in my view) just stupid and juvenile ones that my husband and I ARE equipped to work through, solve and come out better for it.

I just wanted to share my own perspective on this.  I actually did marry my high school sweetheart (we were sweethearts our senior year, but we didn't go to the same high school).  She moved to Northern California to attend UC Davis and we did the long distance thing for a number of years, then got married after finishing college.  Actually she finished, I still had another year.  Without giving too much information, we were both virgins when we got married.  We've been married together for 8 years now and I'm very happy with the choices we made.  (I'm pretty sure my wife is, too.)  I love that the only woman I know (in the Biblical sense) is my wife, all my experience is with her, and that it's a shared experience and intimacy just between the two of us.  Like any marriage, we've had good times and bad times and drama.  But we've learned (and are still learning) to deal with those problem from a young age.

I'm not saying any of this because I think our relationship is superior to anyone else's here (I think if you know me, this probably goes without saying) but for us, it was the way we chose to go and looking back, I'm glad we did.  I actually think it's extremely cool how Russell Nash and wherethewild learned from their past relationships and how its improved their current relationships. 

And I've found this discussion about polyamory both fascinating and enlightening (I've never really been exposed to it before, which makes me feel a bit out of it, which is why I've pretty much just been reading).  Steve's answers have given me a completely different perspective than I had before and I'm grateful for that.  I just didn't want people to assume that getting married to your high school sweetheart, much less being a virgin when you do it, is automatically a bad thing. 


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Reply #42 on: September 14, 2007, 04:48:14 PM
I too married my high school sweetheart, who was also my first and only girlfriend.

Jeanna and I met when we were 16 and 17, and I knew pretty much right away that I wanted to marry her.  We got engaged a year later.  Then we went through this stupid and stressful waiting period of an extra year–not because we thought it was a good idea, but to appease various social forces and expectations–then got married when we were 18 and 20.  (Since then I've told everyone that engagement should last only as long as it takes to scrap a wedding together.)

Were we perfectly mature and in all ways ready to start a life together?  No.  Duh!  Nobody ever is.  Life's a journey, and there are always lots of hard parts in any journey worth taking.  We've become more mature through long and patient practice, and the process continues.

Four years so far, and I dare say that year four has been better than year one was.

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Reply #43 on: September 14, 2007, 05:22:50 PM
I too married my high school sweetheart, who was also my first and only girlfriend.

Were we perfectly mature and in all ways ready to start a life together?  No.  Duh!  Nobody ever is.  Life's a journey, and there are always lots of hard parts in any journey worth taking.  We've become more mature through long and patient practice, and the process continues.

I have to say, I was in the same boat for a while. I married my high school sweetheart after we had been together for six years (yah, we met around 16). It was the first serious (sexual) relationship for either of us, and we were very close for many years. However, the marriage only survived for two years.

I realized (with help from my alternative upbringing) that my conservatively raised Wisconsin bride was in fact a lesbian. I helped her come to terms with that discovery, and we parted ways. It was in no way an easy breakup, but the moment she came to terms with it both her panic attacks and her ulcers disappeared.

Her parent's didn't enjoy the news (Rush Limbaugh speaks nothing but gospel for them), but her life greatly improved. Was I sad to see her go? Yes, for a while. But I was honestly just happy to have helped her grow and come to terms with who she is.

I've been in a relationship with my current partner for the last two years. She and I have both agreed that we would like to bring another woman into our relationship at some point, and we have an open policy of communication for the "just in case" meetings (Like Steve and Minx for example).

Could I have done this with my wife? No. We were waay to insecure and clingy to each other. I partially blame that on the fact that neither of us had had previous partners. Another part of it was just the dynamics of the relationship... but I am much happier with my current situation. We both love eachother, and understand that there may be others that we might love along the way.

You never know who's path you might come across. Had I met my current partner while still in a relationship with my ex-wife... we would have definitely ended up having an affair. There are some people with whom you just... click.



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Reply #44 on: September 23, 2007, 03:34:34 AM
I am going to start off on a bit of a tangent, but I will hopefully come back to the main idea of the thread.

I do not understand how someone could believe in an universal morality. One just has to look at the contrasting moral views on almost anything: abortion, polyamory, stem cell research... there is no end to clashing views of what is right or wrong. These things are smaller than the killing of other humans, but there even times when that was considered acceptable. Look at how the natives and the slaves were treated during the colonization of the Americas; it was considered acceptable for them to be brutally punished or killed by their masters.

With this in mind, one has to consider where people get these contrasting morals. It appears to me that people are conditioned to believe certain things. This may like Brave New World but it is so simple and people are constantly acknowledging the fact. Numerous references have been made throughout this thread that certain cultures accept certain things or that people with a more alternative upbringing are more accepting of others. Watson's Little Albert experiment is a perfect example of this conditioning that takes place. Conditioning can occur at almost any point in life, so more stimuli must be factored then how a person's parents raised them or what religion they were exposed to as a child. There are numerous cases where people were raised with a sibling but still behave differently.

Obviously, all people are different and have different life experiences. Therefore, all people will have different conditioned moral codes. This further implies that there is no universal moral code and that almost all moral judgments are relative to the person making them. Therefore, it seems that people should resort to logic when they consider important decisions if they wish to make an objective decision. At the very least, people need to acknowledge their conditioned morals when they make very important decisions in their lives. Unfortunately, when some people come to a logical conclusion that contradicts their morals, people will tend to stick to their conditioned responses. Examples of this include the brutal treatment of slaves, racism, stem-cell research and other topics.

Another example could include marriage or love...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2007, 03:58:12 PM by RNDG33K »



raygunray

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Reply #45 on: September 23, 2007, 02:42:07 PM
I married late in life which is in contrast to the rest of my family that almost unanimously married in their teens.  All are divorced or single parents and, incidentally, all were raised Pentacostal Christian.  I consider most of them victims of 'abstinence only' dogma since this led to them marrying young or having sex without protection. 

Because I'm a older and have been involved with many short and long-term relationships, I knew much about myself when I married. With maturity and experience, you learn to put your emotions in check and make decisions based on facts and experience.  I know how I am in a conflict or angry or criticized so when a situation arises, I know how to work around my faults and come to a solution.  Fortuneatly, me and my wife don't argue and tend to find consensus on family issues. In a relationship, you will get everything you want, just not in the order you expect.

As for polyamory, I've noticed that someone in the relationship get hurt and eventually cast off.  I've known someone this happened to and she was in a suicidal and drug dependent state.  She got better but I could tell she carried deep wounds from the relationship.  I don't know if it hurts any more or less than a traditional relationship breakup, but it seemed like the kind of hurt you feel when you're kicked out of the club you helped create.  Also, I heard another woman say, "We'll men will cheat on you anyway, so I might was well have some fun too." It was heartbreaking to hear someone agree to be a throw rug in her own home.

I believe if you fall in love with someone and you feel they are worthy of it, then they deserve 100%.  They deserve one lover, one friend, one champion that looks at them and says: "You are worthy of one man or woman to love you with fullsome passion and attention.  You are my One."  I think everyone deserves that.

I've noticed that the SF crowd is the most 'family-values' people I've ever met.  I see many couples who have been together for a long time and take good care of their children.  It seems the overall divorce rate is lower.  I can't find any statistics on this but it has proven true.  The divorce rate seems lower than most 'traditional marriage' churches I've visited.  I think its also because most are college educated and the divorce rate is lower among the educated.

A note on "HS sweetheart" marriages: Those kind of marriages seem to work if both people already know what they want to do with their lives careerwise.  Also, getting your education first is crucial since it means better financial stablity.  Its the ones that marry out of some romantic whim or because they're having a child and get stuck in low-wage jobs that seem to end in divorce.

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Reply #46 on: September 23, 2007, 05:09:13 PM
As for polyamory, I've noticed that someone in the relationship get hurt and eventually cast off.  I've known someone this happened to and she was in a suicidal and drug dependent state.  She got better but I could tell she carried deep wounds from the relationship.  I don't know if it hurts any more or less than a traditional relationship breakup, but it seemed like the kind of hurt you feel when you're kicked out of the club you helped create.

Was there a modifier missing in that first sentence?  "Someone in the relationship always gets hurt..." or some other adjective?  If so, I disagree from experience.  I've known a number of people who've maintained stable poly relationships for many years.  True, they're not all stable.  And when you have more people in a break-up the drama can sometimes be spectacular.  But saying poly relationships always fall apart is like saying marriages always end in divorce.  It simply isn't true.


Quote
Also, I heard another woman say, "We'll men will cheat on you anyway, so I might was well have some fun too." It was heartbreaking to hear someone agree to be a throw rug in her own home.

"Throw rug?"  I can't agree with her characterization of men, so her motivations may be suspect, but a conscious decision to take charge of enjoying one's life is being a "throw rug?"

Many men cheat.  So do many women.  Many men and women would never consider it.  I've never cheated on my wife -- and in a poly context it makes even less sense.  Why would I go behind Anna's back when I can discuss my feelings for other people openly, and if she feels good about it, get her consent?


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I believe if you fall in love with someone and you feel they are worthy of it, then they deserve 100%.  They deserve one lover, one friend, one champion that looks at them and says: "You are worthy of one man or woman to love you with fullsome passion and attention.  You are my One."  I think everyone deserves that.

That's a fine perspective, and if it's led to a successful long-term relationship for you I couldn't begin to argue.  It's simply not the only one that works. 


Quote
I've noticed that the SF crowd is the most 'family-values' people I've ever met.  I see many couples who have been together for a long time and take good care of their children.  It seems the overall divorce rate is lower.  I can't find any statistics on this but it has proven true.

This is anecdotal and could be selection bias, but if it is, I've got the same bias.  The fannish geeks I know do seem to have successful relationships and make attentive parents.  But if your chosen crowd, what you consider the "SF crowd," correlates highly with my chosen crowd, then you also have a much-higher-than-average percentage of poly people, kinky people, Pagans, gay/bi/transsexual people, etc.

...All of whom, more often than average, seem to have successful relationships and make attentive parents.  I agree with you that it probably has a lot to do with education, intelligence, and awareness.  I bring up the diversity of SF fandom only because "family values" is such a loaded and contentious phrase, and I wanted to make sure you weren't using it in its most popular exclusionary sense.

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SFEley

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Reply #47 on: September 23, 2007, 05:55:33 PM
And since the topic's been bumped, I may as well go back to address a couple of posts I meant to say something about but never did:

 
When I was in college, I saw people practicing polyamory, and I went "OMG, they are so totally idiotic" -- because for the most part they were. Their relationships were disasters and they were hurting people right and left. One sweet friend of mine who was about 19 or 20 got invited into a relationship with a married couple in their 40s, who thought introducing her would solve their problem. Shockingly, it didn't. A marriage on the rocks with two people, was still a marriage on the rocks when they added someone naive and new. Babies don't work to heal old wounds, and neither do new sexual partners.

This might be the most significant paragraph in the whole thread.  It's a very important point, and I've seen it too.   People who think they can "fix" broken relationships by making them more complicated with more people -- or, worse, people who were already cheating and declare themselves poly in an attempt to justify it.  This trick never works.  A decision to be polyamorous can make healthy relationships better if both people are on board with it.  But it will only make unhealthy relationships worse.

One common behavior which has become a cliché in the poly world is to decide you're poly by saying "Oh, ho-hum, our marriage has gotten boring, let's find a hot bi babe that we can both sleep with to liven things up."  This is almost always the man's idea -- go figure.  Not only is it a dumb idea, it's very difficult to implement.  Hot bi babes do exist (I know several) but they are, on the whole, spectacularly uninterested in being objectified as somebody else's marital toy.  HBBs willing to go along with this are referred to as "unicorns" because they're widely believed to be mythical.


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I think polyamory is probably more prone to drama than monogamy *in our culture* because it's less understood. We have fewer rituals embedded in our culture for how to adapt to the problems when we come up. Polyamory is great because it's flexible and new, but it also means that there's less of a pool of experience to draw on when things go bad. Responsible polyamorists think a lot about the ethics of their actions, and try to minimize the drama that comes up.

That's true, but to be fair, I also think that there very often is more drama when there are more people involved in a relationship and things turn sour.  That's just mathematics: more nodes on the network, more bridges that could burn.  And that's before you bring in extended networks of friends, who in poly circles may be more intimate with the participants than usual, etc.  It can get really, really ugly, and hurt more people in more colorful ways than a typical monogamous break-up. 

It's a risk.  As you say, smart people try to avoid it by acting ethically and by dealing with problems as they come up rather than letting things simmer under the surface.


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However, I think sometimes polyamory is judged by an impossible standard -- one informed by confirmation bias. We monogamists assume that polyamory is laced by drama, so whenever we see some drama, we go "Oh, yep, there go those dramatic polyamorists." At the same time, we ignore the same stuff that's happening in monogamist communities, because it doesn't fit into the same narrative in our heads about what monogamy is.

Yes.  Exactly.  There aren't any statistics out there to say whether poly relationships last longer on the whole than monogamous relationships -- there may never be good statistics on it, given how many poly people stay closeted in their public lives.  But I can't help looking at the U.S. divorce rate (currently around 40% by my best-effort research) and thinking, "Wait, monogamous marriage is the model that everyone says works?"

When it comes down to it, I think most people are just bad at relationships.  We're never taught how to have good relationships, and the interpersonal skills it takes to find one and keep one.  Schools don't teach it; the books that exist on the subject are rarely read by anyone unless there are problems; counselors who specialize in it only work with people whose relationships are on the brink.  Some religions and If you're lucky, you might have some good examples growing up; but people don't necessarily learn best by their family's examples, and it shouldn't come down to luck.

If people learned better how to have relationships, how to listen and talk, and how to fairly match their needs up with the needs of the people they care about, I think we'd have many more successful monogamous relationships and many more successful polyamorous relationships.

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raygunray

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Reply #48 on: September 23, 2007, 07:45:45 PM
Quote
I bring up the diversity of SF fandom only because "family values" is such a loaded and contentious phrase, and I wanted to make sure you weren't using it in its most popular exclusionary sense.

I certainly didn't mean that in any exclusionary sense.  I co-opted it to describe people, of all persuasions, who are in loving in dedicated relationships.  Yes, its true that all relationships can crash and leave many ravaged hearts behind.  And I don't believe there is only one way to love.

As for all lifestyles and persuastion, I am a civil libertarian as in "Do as you wish and harm no one."  Yet, even in my monogomous, vanilla life, I have hurt people emotionally and have had the same done to me.   

The "family values" aka Traditional Marriage proponents sell marriage like its the best and most stable relationship for everyone.  Yet, if it doesn't work for 10-20% who try it, and those have found better relationships, it doesn't discredit the traditional avenues.  Nor does it threaten it.  Society's human interactions are more organic that didactic and some people are made up different.

This discussion reminds me of Theodore Sturgeon's "Mr. Costello, My Hero." where Constello takes over colonies by encourages persecution of a small minority, the installs himself as protector.



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SFEley

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Reply #49 on: September 23, 2007, 11:26:29 PM
When it comes to being raised in an environment like that, my friends (who also had poly parents) and I got to see a lot of things that helped me with our own personal relationships. We saw some of the nastiest breakups of poly couples. Horrible fights, and incredible levels of jealousy. Much to my amusement, it was always the same problem: lack of trust, and lack of communication. We learned a lot watching my parents and their friends try and make polyamory work; they made glaring mistakes in the dating and courtship process that taught me a lot about human nature and relationships.

Awesome post, Rigger, thanks.  I'm curious, if you don't mind my asking: roughly how old are you?  (You can round off to the nearest 5 years or so if the question's too indelicate.  I'm just wondering which generation.)

In my circle of really close friends, Anna and I are the first with kids, but I know a few poly/pagan families in my area with kids either in or nearing adolescence now.  Of the kids I've spent any time with, a couple are abysmally spoiled; some are well-socialized and interact well on an adult level; but they're all scary smart.  Often smarter than their parents, IMO.  I don't have any really solid theories about causes for this, if it isn't just coincidence.  If I had to guess I'd say there's a lot of benefit in having enough adults nearby to pay attention. 

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