"Welcome to ask"

[wakela]

What's the connection between Paganism and polyamory?

[Planish]

What's the connection between Paganism and polyamory?

They both start with the letter "P"?
(What did I win?)

I married my first True Love in college, and we've been Happily Ever After since 1975. Not a clue as to why it worked. 

[SFEley]

What's the connection between Paganism and polyamory?

Nothing direct -- but they seem to go together an awful lot of the time.  Along with interests in role-playing games, BDSM, science fiction, technology...  There's no specific reason I can think of why so many of the same people should be interested in all these things; I'm sure there's a lot of sociological theory here, but I'm not that grounded in it.  It just seems to happen this way more often than not.

See earlier in the thread about the Bi Poly Kinky Pagan Gamer Geek community, and what I call the "Venn diagram of mostly-white middle-class non-conformity."


(UPDATE:  Actually, I can think of one direct link between two of those spheres -- poly and SF.  You'd be amazed how many people in the poly community cite Robert A. Heinlein for their philosophical underpinnings.  Alas, it's mostly the later Heinlein books, which for the most part I couldn't stand.)

(2nd UPDATE:  Okay, come to think of it, three spheres.  There's also a widespread and serious Pagan religious group, the Church of All Worlds, directly inspired by the teachings of Michael Valentine Smith in Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land.  CAW co-founder Morning Glory Zell is credited with first coining the term "polyamory."  I've almost been a member of CAW in the past, and been close to people who were.  All I can say is that I'm a lot less Pagan now than I used to be -- but I don't regret any of it.)

[lowky]

What's the connection between Paganism and polyamory?

my opinion on this is that people who are into both tend to be educated and to truly become well educated requires an open mind.  an open mind leads people to both question the status quo as well as be accepting to more "fringe" ideas than the "mainstream". ( I use quotes same way I would if referring to someone as normal.  Normal is an average, not something anyone truly is)

[wakela]

What's the connection between Paganism and polyamory?

Nothing direct -- but they seem to go together an awful lot of the time.  Along with interests in role-playing games, BDSM, science fiction, technology...  There's no specific reason I can think of why so many of the same people should be interested in all these things; I'm sure there's a lot of sociological theory here, but I'm not that grounded in it.  It just seems to happen this way more often than not.

I just found it interesting that you listed fan proclivities twice, and both lists were mostly sexual tendencies plus pagansim.  And then in that last post you put poly and paganism together as if their was a cause and effect thing going on or a tight connection.  I wasn't sure if polyamory was a tenant of paganism.  Having browsed the CAW site, it looks like there is a loose connection.  Maybe like a Christian church and potluck dinners.  If you don't go to the dinner it doesn't mean you don't believe, and simply bringing a meatloaf to a church doesn't give you a ticket to eternal bliss in the hereafter.  But there is a general vibe of breaking bread and sharing meals and fellowship in the stories of Jesus, so it seems like a compatible activity if you are into it.  And no, I am not really trying to equate an important aspect or your life with a tuna casserole (though I've has some seriously good tuna casserole in my day...). 

I looked for the venn diagram but didn't find it. 

What's the connection between Paganism and polyamory?

my opinion on this is that people who are into both tend to be educated and to truly become well educated requires an open mind.  an open mind leads people to both question the status quo as well as be accepting to more "fringe" ideas than the "mainstream". ( I use quotes same way I would if referring to someone as normal.  Normal is an average, not something anyone truly is)

I think it's impossible to say that the pagans and polys are not open-minded.  They are practically open-minded by definition.  As far as education goes, what kind of education are we talking about?  I'm with you that most of these guys really like to read, and many of them are good with computers.  What about engineers, lawyers, and medical doctors? 

[eytanz]

I think it's impossible to say that the pagans and polys are not open-minded.  They are practically open-minded by definition.

I don't know about the polys, but the pagans certainly have their own fanatics who believe that there is a right way to be pagan and that any pagan who does not conform to their own beliefs/rituals (let alone any non-pagan) is misguided or worse. I've seen people online self-identify as "pagan fundamentalists" and I felt at the time they were correct in their use of the term. While many pagans are open-minded, I would hardly think that it is a defining characteristic.

[SFEley]

I just found it interesting that you listed fan proclivities twice, and both lists were mostly sexual tendencies plus pagansim.

I also said "role-playing games" and "technology."  Granted, both of those could be turned toward sex if one was creative, but that isn't the context in which I meant them.  >8->

And then in that last post you put poly and paganism together as if their was a cause and effect thing going on or a tight connection.  I wasn't sure if polyamory was a tenant of paganism.  Having browsed the CAW site, it looks like there is a loose connection.  Maybe like a Christian church and potluck dinners.

Heh.  Cool metaphor.  I think you have the spirit of it right.  There are plenty of Pagans who aren't poly, and plenty of polyamorous people who are Christian, Jewish, atheist, whatever.   But if you go to a Pagan gathering you're going to run into a lot of poly people, and vice versa.  And if you go to a typical SF convention, you'll find plenty of Pagan/Poly/etc. fans.

I looked for the venn diagram but didn't find it.

Oh, I didn't mean there was an actual diagram somewhere.  I just meant that the overlapping communities could be visualized as one.

I think it's impossible to say that the pagans and polys are not open-minded.  They are practically open-minded by definition.

Unfortunately, as eytanz already pointed out, that's very much not true.  You can be closed-minded and confrontational about any belief.  I've known Pagans who were actively hostile toward good Christians without any provocation, and poly people who felt that monogamy wasn't just "not for them," but unnatural and wrong.  I think most Pagan and poly people find that sort of bigotry among their own ranks embarrassing and unhelpful, but it does happen.

[lowky]

What's the connection between Paganism and polyamory?

my opinion on this is that people who are into both tend to be educated and to truly become well educated requires an open mind.  an open mind leads people to both question the status quo as well as be accepting to more "fringe" ideas than the "mainstream". ( I use quotes same way I would if referring to someone as normal.  Normal is an average, not something anyone truly is)

I think it's impossible to say that the pagans and polys are not open-minded.  They are practically open-minded by definition.  As far as education goes, what kind of education are we talking about?  I'm with you that most of these guys really like to read, and many of them are good with computers.  What about engineers, lawyers, and medical doctors? 

maybe i am reading your response incorrectly but it sounds like you thought that I was saying pagans and polys were not open-minded.  I was saying that they were and that was part of what lead people to those practices.  I still stand by my statement that people who have more education tend to be more open minded, including engineers, lawyers, and medical doctors.  Not that there aren't closed minded people in any of those categories/professions.

I think that people that are poly are more prone to act on it if they are more educated and open minded, especially if they didn't grow up with a poly frame of reference.  Not that there aren't polys who haven't been able to pursue education or whatever, just I would think without the education etc. they would tend to be more confused and probably seem more to be a serial cheater or commitment phobic, because they don't understand their own impulses better.  then again I could be completely talking out of my ass on this one, as I am not well versed in the poly community. 

[wakela]

What's the connection between Paganism and polyamory?

my opinion on this is that people who are into both tend to be educated and to truly become well educated requires an open mind.  an open mind leads people to both question the status quo as well as be accepting to more "fringe" ideas than the "mainstream". ( I use quotes same way I would if referring to someone as normal.  Normal is an average, not something anyone truly is)

I think it's impossible to say that the pagans and polys are not open-minded.  They are practically open-minded by definition.  As far as education goes, what kind of education are we talking about?  I'm with you that most of these guys really like to read, and many of them are good with computers.  What about engineers, lawyers, and medical doctors? 

maybe i am reading your response incorrectly but it sounds like you thought that I was saying pagans and polys were not open-minded.  I was saying that they were and that was part of what lead people to those practices.  I still stand by my statement that people who have more education tend to be more open minded, including engineers, lawyers, and medical doctors.  Not that there aren't closed minded people in any of those categories/professions.

Sorry, Lowky, I wasn't clear.  I knew you thought the pagans and polys to be open-minded and I was agreeing with you.  But after reading Steve and Etanz's posts I now know that both of us are wrong and that pagans are all a bunch of bigoted jerks.  Thanks guys! 

I don't, however, agree with you that education and open-mindedness go hand in hand.  I don't have any science to back me up, so feel free to add as many grains of salt as you like, but you can get yourself a PhD without having to challenge your preconceived notions.  And I've met several open-minded fans/pagans/poly who never finished high school.  That's why I brought up the "hard" professions.  There is no question that professional engineers, lawyers, and doctors are well-educated (they may not be skilled or talented, but they know a lot of stuff and have passed a lot of tests).  Are there a lot of these guys in the pagan/poly community?  I'm trying to think of the fans that I know, and I have to admit that I don't know most of their professions.  The ones I do know tend to be educators, writers, editors, and computer geeks.    What do you guys think?

Also there are plenty of poorly educated people who are open minded enough accept the existence of spirits, psychic abilities, ghosts, aliens, angels, etc. 

[Rachel Swirsky]

Are there a lot of these guys in the pagan/poly community?

Certainly there are a lot of poly computer programmers.

Maybe we could say that there's a loose correlation where one is more likely to be exposed to other ways of life if one is educated than if one is not educated. Some uneducated people manage to be exposed; some educated people manage to protect themselves. And then, there are also people who are open-minded without exposure, and some people whose brains couldn't be opened with a crowbar despite knowling lots and lots of people from different backgrounds.

(This is written as if there's a reifiable thing called open-mindedness, which of course there isn't. One can be open-minded about some things, and closed-minded about others.)

[Heradel]

(This is written as if there's a reifiable thing called open-mindedness, which of course there isn't. One can be open-minded about some things, and closed-minded about others.)

Ai, I'm pretty open minded when it comes to politics or cosmology, but that specific bit about you-killing-me-for-money I'm pretty closed minded on.

[Russell Nash]

(This is written as if there's a reifiable thing called open-mindedness, which of course there isn't. One can be open-minded about some things, and closed-minded about others.)

Ai, I'm pretty open minded when it comes to politics or cosmology, but that specific bit about you-killing-me-for-money I'm pretty closed minded on.

If you don't open your mind to new experiences, how do you expect to get anywhere?

[Heradel]

(This is written as if there's a reifiable thing called open-mindedness, which of course there isn't. One can be open-minded about some things, and closed-minded about others.)

Ai, I'm pretty open minded when it comes to politics or cosmology, but that specific bit about you-killing-me-for-money I'm pretty closed minded on.

If you don't open your mind to new experiences, how do you expect to get anywhere?

My feet.

[Russell Nash]

(This is written as if there's a reifiable thing called open-mindedness, which of course there isn't. One can be open-minded about some things, and closed-minded about others.)

Ai, I'm pretty open minded when it comes to politics or cosmology, but that specific bit about you-killing-me-for-money I'm pretty closed minded on.

If you don't open your mind to new experiences, how do you expect to get anywhere?

My feet.

Hmm.  Could work.  I guess.

[Heradel]

(This is written as if there's a reifiable thing called open-mindedness, which of course there isn't. One can be open-minded about some things, and closed-minded about others.)

Ai, I'm pretty open minded when it comes to politics or cosmology, but that specific bit about you-killing-me-for-money I'm pretty closed minded on.

If you don't open your mind to new experiences, how do you expect to get anywhere?

My feet.

Hmm.  Could work.  I guess.

Also depends on what you walk past. Or, for that matter, into. Might not really work out in the middle of nowhere, but a few wrong turns in certain cities can certain be mind-opening, if not outright mind-altering.

For example, if anyone here's seen it, the American tourists in 2 Days in Paris.

[Listener]

I have a question for the poly/nontraditional folks.

Do people tend to act strangely toward you, or change their opinion of you, when you reveal to them you're poly?  My best friend is gay but he doesn't get as many weird looks for that as he does for the way he dresses.  But I'm curious.

Like, let's say you meet someone through your neighborhood association.  You talk to them.  You become friends.  You share recipes and gardening tips.  Then one early morning that person is taking out the trash and notices a woman not your wife coming out of your house.  They ask what's up (I know, most people would rather spread rumors, but let's believe the best of our fictional person for now) and you explain, because you know the person pretty well and have had a beer (or margarita or whatever) with them.

Do they treat you differently or give you weird looks?

I'm not saying that you'd have made a secret of it, but if it hasn't come up... like, for example, I'm on good terms with two of my neighbors, but they don't know I'm into BDSM, and have been to a national convention on the topic, and been part of a demonstration of BDSM paraphernalia.  (Whited out for TMI purposes; read at your own risk.)  I don't think I'd ever tell them, but if it came up in conversation, I wouldn't hide it.

*shrug*

[Mr. Tweedy]

Heh.  That question obviously isn't pointed at me, but I'll answer it.

As a monogamist, people definitely give me weird looks.  People's jaws drop* and their eyes bug out when I tell them I've only had sex with my wife, and that I have done this on purpose, not just because I was too uncool to get laid in high school.  When I tell them I don't use porn, they really think I'm weird.

These revelations invariably lead to all kind of questions about why I would behave in such strange ways, and the relationship changes because of that.

Is it weird to be poly?  Is it weird to be bi?  Perhaps my experience is unusual, but–with the exception explicitly Christian gatherings–such lifestyles would not be perceived as weird in any environment that I've spent time in.  For example, my gay coworker in the next room is considered 100% normal, but coworkers near my desk find my lifestyle very strange.  (I'm not talking about hostility, just the "raised eyebrows" reaction.)

_{*That was a guy I worked with at Toys'R'Us.  I've gotten lots of blink-eyed disbelief, but that was the only genuine jaw drop.}