steampunk

[Listener]

Is steampunk SF or Fantasy?

It contains technical elements and often a lot of science, so it could be SF.  But it's an alternate universe that is (to the best of my knowledge) usually parallel with the late 1800s, but then you add steampunk technology to it, so you're really in an entirely-different world, so it could be Fantasy.

Discuss.

[Rigger]

Steampunk is a tricky subject. For the most part, I see it as Science Fiction. Stories like War of the Worlds and 2000 Leagues dominate the titles that shine as "early steampunk". Most steampunk stories either focus on a sort of "Futuristic Victorian" era (ala Steamboy) while others have a sort of "what if?" feel like The Difference Engine.

While I personally think it is predominantly Sci-fi, that is not to say there are no good steampunk fantasy stories The Golden Compass is a perfect example of an excellent steampunk fantasy novel.

In some ways I think that steampunk's current popularity is a backlash to our current technology. Everything we make somehow seems cheap when it comes to technology. Computers and keyboards are made out of aluminum and plastic; it comes across as flimsy and unsubstantial.

Where as steampunk technology is somehow more relatable. Wood and bronze feature heavily in the ornate fixtures that one would normally make from plastics. There is an accessibility behind the garments and styles of this sort of setting, and it comes across as more "real" to to fans of the genre.

[DKT]

Listener, thanks for starting this up.  I was about to ask whether or not there'd be any Steampunk on Podcastle.

I love Steampunk and I think it's one of the subgenres that defies the SF/F split.  My knee jerk reaction to Steampunk is SF because of the technology (like say, the Difference Engine).  But when I read stuff by China Mieville I tend to think of it more as fantasy because there's magic and other stuff involved.  I should also point out I'm probably slightly biased by this approach, because Perdido Street Station was the first Steampunk novel I read, so it doesn't bother me at all to see magic and demons and monsters and whatever else coupled with the technology.

Anyway, I don't have a clue whether SF has more of a claim to it than fantasy but I hope it's featured on both podcasts.  Hey, while we're at it, we could use some horror Steampunk on Pseudopod!

[DKT]

In some ways I think that steampunk's current popularity is a backlash to our current technology. Everything we make somehow seems cheap when it comes to technology. Computers and keyboards are made out of aluminum and plastic; it comes across as flimsy and unsubstantial.

Where as steampunk technology is somehow more relatable. Wood and bronze feature heavily in the ornate fixtures that one would normally make from plastics. There is an accessibility behind the garments and styles of this sort of setting, and it comes across as more "real" to to fans of the genre.

That's intersting to me, because some of the books I really love (like Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series and some of M. John Harrison's Viriconium) are set in the far future where there's definitely technology, but there's been some kind of backlash to it in society.  I'm pretty sure that also happened in Tobias S. Buckell's Crystal Rain, but I'm not sure since I haven't actually read it. 

[Jim]

Steampunk is what we RPG players call a meta-genre.

[Thaurismunths]

Wow, great question!

I'm a novice steampunk aficionado so my opinion might change with more exposure to the genera, but I think steam has slipped from SF to F because the scientific principles used are now largely outdated or fictitious. When Mr. Verne was writing there didn't seem to be a limit to what the science of their age could produce and there was a poor understanding of the world around them (the moon having atmosphere). As time marched by what was ahead of its time has now become behind the times. Steam punk doesn't seem to explore the possibilities of the improbable, but those of the impossible.*

*this only counts for pieces that aren't filed under alternative history where we never left steam behind, or alternative worlds where the rules of science are different.

[Rigger]

Steampunk might not be too improbable as a future either. Has anyone else seen the interesting video & news stories about the man who figured out how to make saltwater "burn"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6vSxR6UKFM

I want a saltwater powered car!

[Thaurismunths]

Steampunk might not be too improbable as a future either. Has anyone else seen the interesting video & news stories about the man who figured out how to make saltwater "burn"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6vSxR6UKFM

I want a saltwater powered car!

That's impressive!
I wonder how big an RF generator that takes, and what the exchange rate (joules in, joules out) is?

[Mr. Tweedy]

At his point it's really just a parlor trick: You've got to put more juice into the RF generator than you obtain from burning the hydrogen.  It's just a fancy form of water electrolysis.

Still no perpetual motion.

[Rigger]

At his point it's really just a parlor trick: You've got to put more juice into the RF generator than you obtain from burning the hydrogen.  It's just a fancy form of water electrolysis.

Still no perpetual motion.

Who knows? There might be a way to make the technology viable.

As for perpetual motion, there is Steron's possible hoax, Orbo: http://www.steorn.com/orbo/

Who knows about that one. They make some interesting claims on their site.

[BrandtPileggi]

/insert .wav of Homer Simpson scolding Lisa here. "This machine she built just keeps going faster and faster. Lisa! In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

[Planish]

I don't think you can count fiction written in the era of Steam. When it was written it was simply what we would today call science fiction, because they were extrapolating into the near future. No "punk" involved.
I'd say that "steampunk" is more properly applied to contemporary pastiches of the original Victorian era works. We just point at works by Wells and Verne because they are the antecedents that inspire the look and feel of the modern works, and they are familiar to all including people who don't know what "steampunk" is.

It's like Homer's Illiad not being a "sword 'n' sandals epic" as such. That's for Hollywood movies.

To me, the contemporary thing we call steampunk (being a kind of alternate history) would be more like science fiction, because it calls for a bit more rigor in determining the consequences of your "what if" premise. Once you start changing how the universe works (as in fantasy), then the consequences can be merely the result of the author's arbitrary decisions. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Speaking of steampunk, check out this steampunk keyboard mod:
http://steampunkworkshop.com/keyboard.shtml - wotta beauty!
Followed by the equally elegant LCD monitor mod: http://steampunkworkshop.com/lcd.shtml
Can't wait to see the mouse.
Also a steampunk-inspired etched brass pickguard for a Fender Strat - http://steampunkworkshop.com/steampunk-strat.shtml

[Thaurismunths]

I don't think you can count fiction written in the era of Steam. When it was written it was simply what we would today call science fiction, because they were extrapolating into the near future. No "punk" involved.

That's a very good point. I'll have to consider it more.

Have you seen the SteamPunk laptop?
http://www.engadget.com/2006/10/13/steampunk-laptop-comes-complete-with-morse-key/

[gedion_ki]

I too am growing into a pretty big Steampunk fan and up until now I have just defaulted it into the realm of SF. This could just be that much of what I have read thus far has been far closer to SF (No magic). If you consider in full all Steampunk writing then as a whole Steampunk  has a habit of straddling both areas. How would you make that determination, by the contents?

Personally I would be happy for Steampunk to fall into SF and F groupings because this way it would be twice as likely that I'll be hearing a Steampunk story on one of the pods in the not so distant future.

[Russell Nash]

The whole phrase Steampunk was new to me before these forums. 

Would something like Wild, Wild West count?

[gedion_ki]

Would something like Wild, Wild West count?

Yup! According to the Æther Emporium it is Steampunk, though I haven't seen the movie myself.  Check out the link for a full rundown on what is considered Steampunk. It's a good guide to get a better idea of what gets included.

[Listener]

For lack of anything better to do in my work fantasy football league, I write weekly previews of the matchups and make comments about the teams.  Next week, I've decided, is Steampunk Week:

Bad Newz Kennels = Ye Olde Kennels of Malicious Intent
Doo Rockers (my team) = Those Who Play Baroque Music in the Style of Doo
Next Best Thing = A Thing That May Be The Upcoming Attraction
War Monkeys = Primates Who Battle
Monsters = Headless Horsemen; Also, Witches
Chumps = Jesters; Also, Fools
BoSox = Footwear of Bostonians
Jagged Little Pill = Medication That Does Not Go Down Painlessly, Though It Is Small
Bizzaro = Strange; Also, Unusual
Remembralls = Devices That Aid In The Remembering of Forgotten Items
Gladiators = Champions of Fisticuffs

Any suggestions to improve these, either by lengthening or changing words, are welcome.

[plantedbypiggies]

I think of steampunk as science fantasy. In my mind, science fiction has to have a plausible explanation to back up the technology. Fantasy is anything in which there is cool stuff going on, but it isn't explained. Science fantasy, therefore, is a combination. There's some scientifically plausible technology but then there's also some unexplained elements.

In steampunk that I enjoy, there's a pretty strong technological backdrop, but some kind of unexplainable phenomenon is involved.

[Heradel]

I've always viewed it as Alternative History soft SF since it postulates a different present because of a different past. Science Fiction for me has always been trying to foresee a future, where Steampunk is trying to see something that could have been, not could be.

[gelee]

Genre's tend to be sort of arbitrary, I think.  As Steve likes to say, "It" is what you point at when you say "It". 
That said, I classify stuff in my head, just like everybody else.  For me, I don't think Steam Punk can get away from the fantasy label because of the magic.  You can have fantasy without magic, but no magic without fantasy.  For me, Star Wars is Space Fantasy.  Changing the tech level of your fantasy setting doesn't keep it from being a fantasy.
As for the "Punk" half, I guess that stuff tends to be gritty, and Mieville's stuff tends to have a socialist bent to it.

[Ocicat]

Lucas used to refer to Star Wars as Space Fantasy, and said it didn't qualify as Science Fiction.

I haven't read a lot of steampunk, but I absolutely adore the webcomic Girl Genius.  The science isn't plausible, it's Mad Science!  Giant crabwalking tanks!  Airship fleets!  Slaver Wasps!  And, of course, a artificially constructed talking cat.  He was designed to be the king of all cats, and he is... it just doesn't do any good, since his subjects are, well, cats - and tend to forget his orders if they happen to see a butterfly to chase. 

Anyway, everyone should check it out if they haven't...

[plantedbypiggies]

I've always viewed it as Alternative History soft SF since it postulates a different present because of a different past. Science Fiction for me has always been trying to foresee a future, where Steampunk is trying to see something that could have been, not could be.

There can be far-future steampunk. One great example is the online short story "The Dog Said Bow-Wow" by Michael Swanwick. A far-future novel is Kurt Schroeder's  Sun of Suns.

[DKT]

I always thought of M. John Harrison's Viriconium (at least the first book) as far-future steampunk.

[Thaurismunths]

Stardust is a fantasy/steampunk movie.

[Graham]

One of my favourite SF novels is Pavane by Keith Roberts. Thinking about it, I'd say that could be classed as Steampunk.

[Listener]

Stardust is a fantasy/steampunk movie.

The only real steampunk I noticed was Robert DeNiro's ship.  Did I miss some?  I might have; I was so blown away by the musical score that I probably missed a few things.

Golden Compass had a lot of steampunk promise in the previews, but a lot of the technology was cut to make room for the plot.

Tin Man was kind of a steampunk-y Wizard of Oz.

[DKT]

Stardust is a fantasy/steampunk movie.

Hmmm.  Why do you say that?  Even counting Deniro's ship, the movie didn't feel very steampunk-ish to me.  It came off as more fantasy set around the Victorian era.

[Thaurismunths]

Stardust is a fantasy/steampunk movie.

Hmmm.  Why do you say that?  Even counting Deniro's ship, the movie didn't feel very steampunk-ish to me.  It came off as more fantasy set around the Victorian era.

Ok, so it was pretty exclusively the scenes on or relating to Capitan Shakespeare's ship, which did occupy a good portion of the story, but also because Steampunk is primarily set in the Victorian era.
That's not to say it is a purely Steampunk movie like Wild Wild West w/ Will Smith.

[Russell Nash]

Speaking of steampunk, check out this steampunk keyboard mod:
http://steampunkworkshop.com/keyboard.shtml - wotta beauty!
Followed by the equally elegant LCD monitor mod: http://steampunkworkshop.com/lcd.shtml
Can't wait to see the mouse.
Also a steampunk-inspired etched brass pickguard for a Fender Strat - http://steampunkworkshop.com/steampunk-strat.shtml

NPR had a story about these mods and steampunk esthetic in general.

[Bump In The @]

I've always seen Steampunk as SciFi... Unless there are Dragons, in which case it's Fantasy... Unless the Dragons are really steam powered flying autotanks, in which case it's SciFi again...

[clonepod]

For me it feels more like steampunk when it is more on the sf side and has less fantasy elements.  My friend is starting a steampunk podcast called steampod.org and he is looking for submissions...

[Thaurismunths]

For me it feels more like steampunk when it is more on the sf side and has less fantasy elements.  My friend is starting a steampunk podcast called steampod.org and he is looking for submissions...

Hey clonepod, are you of clonepod fame?
I love the podcast!

[stePH]

Hey clonepod, are you of clonepod fame?

Looking at clonepod's avatar, I'd say it's possible