Author Topic: IPUs, Religion, Science, and all that Jazz  (Read 45917 times)

Russell Nash

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Reply #75 on: September 20, 2007, 06:37:04 PM
um are either of you going to answer my question?

i did like the Her jab :)

I'm staying out of the evolution fight this time.  Three times is enough for me. 



Heradel

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Reply #76 on: September 20, 2007, 07:10:28 PM
We were talking about faith in Philosophy class today, in the context of when the concept of faith started existing, as you can't really say the Ancient Greeks had faith—evidence of their gods constantly surrounded them.

I'm going to say that faith exists only when there are two opposing worldviews, one metaphysical(religion), one physical(science), and a person makes the decision to believe in the metaphysical rather than the physical. You can argue that faith/belief applies just as much to the scientific worldview, but faith required as absence of evidence, which science has gobs of, granted in very arcane forms in some areas.

Now, most people aren't going to have a working knowledge of the ins and outs of evolutionary theory. I certainly don't. I know the basics, but biology isn't  my strong suit, and so I trust biologists. And I trust them, because I know there is peer review, and if I really wanted to I could go and perform the experiments they performed to check their conclusions.

I know that I don't know these things. I know I could study hard and work hard to know them, but I have a finite amount of time on this earth, and other things interest me more. I assume/believe that biology as an establishment is honest, because I know the rules by which it functions and find that they are designed to end up with theories that are based in experimental truths. Not all theories shake out, but evolution has been around for a long time. It's been attacked and examined and bits have changed since Darwin, yet in all those years no other theory has disproved it, or superseded it.

Human knowledge is incremental. Origin of Species's main conclusions (quoted below, from the wikipedia summary), are a little different from evolutionary theory today. If you want a brief rundown on the differences I'd point you to the Talk Origins page here. They basically boil down to adding genetics in, and recognizing that Natural Selection isn't the only mechanism of evolution, and that there may be another one that is about as important.

In short, evolutionary theory is different today. But it's more along the lines of an addition being built onto an old house rather than a complete demolish and rebuild.

Quote
1. Species have great fertility. They have more offspring than can grow to adulthood.
2. Populations remain roughly the same size, with small changes.
3. Food resources are limited, but are relatively stable over time.
4. An implicit struggle for survival ensues.
5. In sexually reproducing species, generally no two individuals are identical.
6. Some of these variations directly impact the ability of an individual to survive in a given environment.
7. Much of this variation is inheritable.
8. Individuals less suited to the environment are less likely to survive and less likely to reproduce, while individuals more suited to the environment are more likely to survive and more likely to reproduce.
9. The individuals that survive are most likely to leave their inheritable traits to future generations.
10. This slowly effected process results in populations that adapt to the environment over time, and ultimately, after interminable generations, the creations of new varieties, and ultimately, new species.

Ok im kinda new hear and i may have missed the definition phase of this contest so pleas define evolution for me. In the context of this argument.

It's not that structured a debate, it was never defined.

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swdragoon

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Reply #77 on: September 20, 2007, 07:38:07 PM
if its not defind the everybody is right and everybody is wrong

so I WINN!!!!!!

Improvise, Adapt ,Overcome.


SFEley

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Reply #78 on: September 20, 2007, 08:39:03 PM
Ok im kinda new hear and i may have missed the definition phase of this contest so pleas define evolution for me. In the context of this argument.

It's not that structured a debate, it was never defined.

Or to be more precise: definitions were offered, but none were agreed on by all participants.

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swdragoon

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Reply #79 on: September 20, 2007, 08:52:32 PM
so do i still win?

Improvise, Adapt ,Overcome.


Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #80 on: September 20, 2007, 09:14:18 PM
Ok im kinda new hear and i may have missed the definition phase of this contest so pleas define evolution for me. In the context of this argument.

It's not that structured a debate, it was never defined.

Or to be more precise: definitions were offered, but none were agreed on by all participants.

To be more precise: Everyone agreed on what "evolution" means, but one person (me) wanted to define "adaptation" as a second, distinct, idea.  No one else accepted this distinction.

Wherethewild's "word morphs" analogy was a very accurate and concise description of evolution.

We start with a gene. Over a while, within a population there´s a bunch of different mutations. Most aren´t viable, some make no difference, some are advantageous. The advantageous one appears more in the population, itself undergoes a minor mutation which also is advantageous and so on and so on and so on (we all get this). So now to my analogy: word morphs.

We start with OOZE and, simply by switching one letter at a time we produce DOGS.

OOZE-DOZE-DONE-DONS-DOGS.

Not immediately obvious or necessarily logic to the layman thinker that these two could be connected, but they are. And if on the path to dog a different letter change occurs we might get fowl.

Here´s an even more complicated web of word morph possibilities, including Russell as everyone´s favourite outlier.

                 ooze         
                    |         
                 doze         
   /         /         |                     \      
dome      dole   done               daze   
   |         |         |                       |     \
dime      doll      dons               raze    dale
   |         |         |        \           |       |
rime      boll      dogs    dots      rage       bale
  |        |                     |           |       |
rise      bowl                cots       rags     base
  |        |                     |           |       |
wise      fowl              cats      rugs    bash
  |                                        |       |
wish                                     bugs   nash
  |               
fish               

Unless someone offered a definition that I missed, that's what all of us mean by it.

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Heradel

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Reply #81 on: September 20, 2007, 11:49:17 PM
To be more precise: Everyone agreed on what "evolution" means, but one person (me) wanted to define "adaptation" as a second, distinct, idea.  No one else accepted this distinction.
Due to most common definitions of evolution encompassing physical adaptations.

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swdragoon

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Reply #82 on: September 21, 2007, 01:11:08 AM
So are we just debating  physical adaptation,
or are we arguing origins ?

Improvise, Adapt ,Overcome.


SFEley

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Reply #83 on: September 21, 2007, 02:12:27 AM
So are we just debating  physical adaptation,
or are we arguing origins ?

Personally, I was hoping to talk more about Invisible Pink Unicorns.  But I think we got off the actual subject line of this thread pretty quick.  >8>

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swdragoon

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Reply #84 on: September 21, 2007, 02:18:07 AM
are thay as cool as invisable blue ducks?
or as powerfull as santa claws?

Improvise, Adapt ,Overcome.


DKT

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Reply #85 on: September 21, 2007, 07:15:20 PM
I'm all for hearing more about IPUs!


SFEley

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Reply #86 on: September 21, 2007, 07:19:31 PM
I'm all for hearing more about IPUs!

What do you want to know? 

They already know all about you, so clearly they have no need to start the discussion with questions.

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robertmarkbram

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Reply #87 on: September 21, 2007, 07:31:12 PM
We were talking about faith in Philosophy class today, in the context of when the concept of faith started existing, as you can't really say the Ancient Greeks had faith—evidence of their gods constantly surrounded them.

I'm going to say that faith exists only when there are two opposing worldviews, one metaphysical(religion), one physical(science), and a person makes the decision to believe in the metaphysical rather than the physical. You can argue that faith/belief applies just as much to the scientific worldview, but faith required as absence of evidence, which science has gobs of, granted in very arcane forms in some areas.

Hmm...

2007 B.C.
Layman: "Ooh, what is that rumbling sound, and those lights in the sky?"
Priest: "That is THOR! The rumbling is Thor dragging chairs over the Big Wooden Floorboards in The Clouds. The lights are Thor throwing his hammer because he is angry!"
Layman: "Oh. That sounds about right."
Priest: "Thor is a mighty god - he demands 2 gold pieces as a sacrifice!"
Layman: "Ok, here they are. So, why are our years going down anyway, and who is this Christ?"

2007 A.D.
Layman: "So how do you figure that the Tunguska event was really a primordial black hole that even now might be orbiting within the Earth.. and can it really be used to change the past?"
Scientist/Newsagent/Geek: "One of those is just an alternative theory to the air burst of a large meteoroid and the other is a brilliant (free) podcast novel by Bill DeSmedt!"
Layman: "Oh. That sounds about right."
Scientist/Newsagent/Geek: "Podibooks.com is free but you should donate! And this New Geeky Scientist magazine costs $5"
Layman: "Ok, here's the money. I am so glad our years are going up, it makes much more sense, but what do dominoes have to do with it?"

Sounds like the same leap of faith to me, delivered with an expert wit, if I don't say so myself.


DKT

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Reply #88 on: September 21, 2007, 07:43:04 PM
I'm all for hearing more about IPUs!

What do you want to know? 

They already know all about you, so clearly they have no need to start the discussion with questions.


Why are we here?  What's the meaning of life?  Why don't they have a podcast all of their own?  And how come you know they're pink if they're invisible?  (I'm pretty sure you've stated the last, somewhere, I just can't remember where...)

You know, the basics.


wakela

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Reply #89 on: September 21, 2007, 10:56:54 PM
You guys better be reverential with the pink unicorns.

If anyone draws a picture of one I'm going to start burning flags and chopping heads.



Heradel

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Reply #90 on: September 21, 2007, 11:01:01 PM
You guys better be reverential with the pink unicorns.

If anyone draws a picture of one I'm going to start burning flags and chopping heads.

Uh oh.
 _______________
|                              |
|                              |
|                              |
|                              |
|                              |
|_______________|


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DKT

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Reply #91 on: September 21, 2007, 11:04:19 PM
Dude, if I keep staring at it, I can almost see it...


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Reply #92 on: September 21, 2007, 11:11:45 PM
all hail the IPU!

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Heradel

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Reply #93 on: September 21, 2007, 11:48:32 PM
Dude, if I keep staring at it, I can almost see it...

But verily, the IPU is such that it cannot be contained within any such mortal contraption, and if one stares at any blank surface — is that not enough to see the glory that is the Invisible Pink Unicorn?

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wakela

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Reply #94 on: September 22, 2007, 03:44:15 AM
None of you guys is a redhead, right?  Because I, as a believer in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, find redheads a filthy, amoral, abomination.  Why don't they just dye their hair?  Try asking the next redhead you see that one.  They never have an answer.

Then hang them. 



SFEley

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Reply #95 on: September 22, 2007, 04:14:12 AM
Why are we here?

Because you registered for an account.


Quote
What's the meaning of life?

A temporary local reversal of entropy, culminating in philosophical questions which reestablish entropy by their pointlessness.


Quote
Why don't they have a podcast all of their own?

They do.  But you have to know how to decipher the code.


Quote
And how come you know they're pink if they're invisible?  (I'm pretty sure you've stated the last, somewhere, I just can't remember where...)

"Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them."

See everyone's favorite infallible reference site for more.

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ajames

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Reply #96 on: October 06, 2007, 03:22:43 AM
Are religion and science compatible?

To me, religion is concerned with the great mysteries of life.  The institutions of religion, on the other hand, are often concerned with power.

Science, too, is concerned with the great mysteries of life, but its institutions are also often concerned with power, prestige, wealth, and their own continued existence.

The approaches of religion and science are very different.  They are compatible, however, if you understand how their approaches differ, and work with them both.

Personally, in answering most questions, I think the approach science takes has many advantages.  But I believe there is still room for both religion and science, and I'd hate to contemplate life without religion.
 
Though I must admit I have much more interest in and respect for religions that celebrate the great mysteries than those that attempt or claim to answer them.  "The way that can be spoken of is not the eternal way."  Therein lies wisdom.