Author Topic: Russell Nash vs. Everyone!!!  (Read 43566 times)

sirana

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Reply #100 on: July 06, 2008, 06:30:02 AM
Have any of you read Greg Egans's Stuff?
Of the ones that are availlable online, I think this one  would be impossible to convert into anything else.

nice, a second stowaway story. it's like we got a theme going.

from my point of view this story translates into high fantasy very easily. the technology in the story is so advanced it's pretty much indistinguishable from magic anyway. on the other hand, a fantasy version wouldn't be nearly as interesting since a large part of the narrative is looking at the structure of a black hole and if that was replaced with a fictional structure it would just read like self-indulgent world building.


But there are two main points in the story that just don't translate to fantasy. All the characters are making fun of Prospero because he is looking at things in a mystic way and doesn't care about the technical details and physics. Changing that would change the story so far that it would be about something completely else. The same is true with the main reason for the Dive. This is fundamentally a story about SCIENCE. They are doing this for SCIENCE to understand the physics of the world in a deeper level and if you change that it wouldn't be the same story.

Also the special type of immortality that they have as intelligent software and the fact that they are cloning themselves for the Dive makes it additionally hard to change into fantasy imho.



deflective

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Reply #101 on: July 06, 2008, 08:21:30 AM
All the characters are making fun of Prospero because he is looking at things in a mystic way and doesn't care about the technical details and physics. Changing that would change the story so far that it would be about something completely else.

i'm not sure how familiar you are with fantasy but this is actually dealt with quite often. the two camps are usually represented by magic users (for physics) and clerics (for religion, well, clerics). in this case Prospero would probably be best represented as a bard tied to religion in a society so magic saturated that almost nobody worships the old deities.

The same is true with the main reason for the Dive. This is fundamentally a story about SCIENCE. They are doing this for SCIENCE to understand the physics of the world in a deeper level and if you change that it wouldn't be the same story.

this right here is an example of why almost all of the is/isn't sf debates happen. in terms of the story, as a plot device, the science isn't essential. it can be tough to see, especially cases like this where so much page space is given over to scientific explanation. the plot doesn't really get going until the fourth section. before that all we really have is the introduction of a couple characters and a lot of exposition about technologies and the physics of a black hole.

from a purely narrative point of view the black hole is nothing more than a source of motivation for the characters. if you haven't looked into narrative structures (character archetypes, macguffins, etc.) this can be counter intuitive but when someone says that any sf story can be translated into another genre this what they mean. replacing the black hole with, say, an astral plane from which no one can return results in little to no change in the character's actions.

and this is where the debates are coming from. when some people say 'story' they mean the characters' actions and the events that occur, other people's definition includes the technical exposition and physics lessons the author has put in.

what you've said about the theme of the story changing in a fantasy setting is a good point but i think it would still be workable. weakened probably, but workable. the magic users are interested in exploring and understanding the world (and bending it to their will), the bard takes the traditional view of interpreting everything according to doctrine.

Also the special type of immortality that they have as intelligent software and the fact that they are cloning themselves for the Dive makes it additionally hard to change into fantasy imho.

there are common fantasy devices that simulate these. astral projection (sort of a freed soul) and mirror spells for example.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 08:35:50 AM by deflective »



errant371

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Reply #102 on: July 07, 2008, 01:56:05 PM
The same is true with the main reason for the Dive. This is fundamentally a story about SCIENCE. They are doing this for SCIENCE to understand the physics of the world in a deeper level and if you change that it wouldn't be the same story.

this right here is an example of why almost all of the is/isn't sf debates happen. in terms of the story, as a plot device, the science isn't essential. it can be tough to see, especially cases like this where so much page space is given over to scientific explanation. the plot doesn't really get going until the fourth section. before that all we really have is the introduction of a couple characters and a lot of exposition about technologies and the physics of a black hole.

from a purely narrative point of view the black hole is nothing more than a source of motivation for the characters. if you haven't looked into narrative structures (character archetypes, macguffins, etc.) this can be counter intuitive but when someone says that any sf story can be translated into another genre this what they mean. replacing the black hole with, say, an astral plane from which no one can return results in little to no change in the character's actions.

and this is where the debates are coming from. when some people say 'story' they mean the characters' actions and the events that occur, other people's definition includes the technical exposition and physics lessons the author has put in.

what you've said about the theme of the story changing in a fantasy setting is a good point but i think it would still be workable. weakened probably, but workable. the magic users are interested in exploring and understanding the world (and bending it to their will), the bard takes the traditional view of interpreting everything according to doctrine.

Also the special type of immortality that they have as intelligent software and the fact that they are cloning themselves for the Dive makes it additionally hard to change into fantasy imho.

there are common fantasy devices that simulate these. astral projection (sort of a freed soul) and mirror spells for example.

Quite right.  Hats off to you, sir!  Literature major in a past life perhaps?

I re-read Heinlein's All You Zombies after you brought it up in the debate.  I am pretty sure that it is the winner on this whole SF/non-SF debate.  I don't think it can be made into anything other than a S/F story.  I will have to think about it and see if I can make an argument, but I don't think I can.

What part of 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn' didn't you understand?


deflective

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Reply #103 on: July 08, 2008, 12:54:24 AM
Quite right.  Hats off to you, sir!  Literature major in a past life perhaps?

maybe in a past life =) this one only had room for a couple electives.

I re-read Heinlein's All You Zombies after you brought it up in the debate.  I am pretty sure that it is the winner on this whole SF/non-SF debate.  I don't think it can be made into anything other than a S/F story.  I will have to think about it and see if I can make an argument, but I don't think I can.

i liked the dawning realization that the character (erm, so all the characters) wasn't even human. just some weird self-contained entity that happened to take the form of the local species.