Author Topic: How do you get to heaven split from EP129  (Read 81914 times)

Darwinist

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Reply #100 on: January 23, 2008, 03:26:18 PM


[/quote]

The opinions of experts are worthwhile if they hold up to critical analysis, i.e. if they make sense.  They should not be taken on faith simply because the speaker bears the title "expert."  I am inviting you to analyze Behe and come to your own conclusion about the validity of his ideas.  You can decide for yourself whether or not he is worthy of any particular title.
[/quote]

I've read some Behe and can't agree with him and believe his ideas are invalid.  His writings about the idea of irreducible complexity drive me crazy.   He looks at complex systems from the top down rather that how they evolved - from the bottom up.  I'm not going to go on a rant - but a good example is the eye.   Creationists argue that the modern human eye is too complex to have evolved, it had to be created.  But in nature there are living creatures with very simple sensory organs, very simple eyes, and more complex eyes all the way up to the complex human eye.   I could go on forever as I am a Darwin groupie but I won't.  The creationsim / evolution debate on the forums was wiped out with the great server crash of 11-07.  That being said, I find it interesting reading the work of people like Behe and hearing new ideas.  At this point I choose to believe the opinions of the majority of scientists and biologists and subscribe to evolution.  I see no evidence of supernatural influence on the development of life.     

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #101 on: January 23, 2008, 04:09:30 PM
Darwinist, being a "Darwin groupie," could you recommend any books on the practical research end of things?  Most of my reading about Evolution (Darwin, Sagan, National Geographic, college textbooks) has been about theory.  I haven't encountered very much discussion about the nuts and bolts science supporting the theory.  I'd be interested in reading something that focussed on specific research.  Any recommendations?

My biggest specific curiosity is to know more about how paleontology is done.

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Reply #102 on: January 24, 2008, 11:04:13 AM
I'm bowing out of this one, mainly because Mr. Tweedy's thought process is so far different from mine that we may as well be speaking a different language.

I'll leave with a thought for you to ponder, Mr Tweedy. You say that you evaluate "experts" based on whether their opinions and beliefs make sense to you. In science there often is no common sense answer. The case of climate change (discussed on a prior thread) and the development of life over millions of years, for example, are both so far out of one individual's experience that we can't just intuit a solution or explanation. Other times there are common sense answers which are just wrong. Ask a dozen random people, for example, if a heavier object falls faster than a lighter object because of its greater mass. Those who have not been educated by an expert in physics but rely on intuition will always intuitively give the wrong answer. If you substitute your gut feeling for expert opinion or scientific consensus, all you'll ever do is confirm your own biases and never really learn anything.

And on that note, I'm out of this one before our poor moderator has to split it apart yet again.

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gelee

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Reply #103 on: January 24, 2008, 12:34:55 PM
My pleasure.  This is a debate that I gave up a long time ago, but I think a measure of understanding would help all parties concerned.
The term "atheist" is every bit as loaded as "christian," and almost as complicated.  The way I had to explain this to my wife was that there were more than one kind of non-theistic stand point:
Theist: I have an elephant in my garage.
Hard Atheist: Based on the information I have, you do not have an elephant in your garage.
Soft Atheist: Based on the information I have, I do not believe that you have an elephant in your garage.
Agnostic: I do not know if you have elephant in your garage or not.  Each is equally likely, based on the information I have.

It might be semantic hair-splitting, but it's an important difference.  I'm of the "soft" sort.  I'm the cuddly atheist!

I don't quite think that's right, really. I have a few issues with it:

1. First, most theists (myself included), are such because of the information they have. Maybe it's faulty information, or faulty deduction, but that could be said of the atheists as well. It's not fair to remove that clause specifically from the theists.

2. Why are you splitting the atheists into "soft" and "hard" but not the theists? I have nowhere to put myself in your classification.

3. Elephants in garages are not a good enough analogy, since it's pretty easy to check if there really is one or not. If you and I were arguing about whether there was an elephant in my garage, I would resolve the argument by showing you my garage.

4. I know a lot of people who call themselves agnostic who don't believe the options are equally likely, just that they are both possible.

I would offer the following version:

Hard Theist: Based on the information I have, There is an elephant on Mars.
Soft Theist, Based on the information I have, I believe there is an elephant on Mars.
Hard Atheist: Based on the information I have, there is no elephant on Mars.
Soft Atheist: Based on the information I have, I do not believe that there is an elephant on Mars.
Agnostic: I do not know if there is an elephant ion Mars. I don't have enough information.

On this classification, I'm a soft theist.
Point well made and taken.  It is neither fair nor accurate to dump all theists into one homogenous box.



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #104 on: January 24, 2008, 03:09:01 PM
I'm bowing out of this one, mainly because Mr. Tweedy's thought process is so far different from mine that we may as well be speaking a different language.

Since we both bowed out, this isn't a God thread anymore.  Consider it split.  I want to know how you think on this on this other topic.

In science there often is no common sense answer. The case of climate change (discussed on a prior thread) and the development of life over millions of years, for example, are both so far out of one individual's experience that we can't just intuit a solution or explanation. Other times there are common sense answers which are just wrong. Ask a dozen random people, for example, if a heavier object falls faster than a lighter object because of its greater mass. Those who have not been educated by an expert in physics but rely on intuition will always intuitively give the wrong answer. If you substitute your gut feeling for expert opinion or scientific consensus, all you'll ever do is confirm your own biases and never really learn anything.

I do not mean that I trust myself and myself alone to figure out answers.

Here's an example I like that explains what I mean: Ice.  I have been told by experts that when the temperature of water falls below a certain point its molecules link together in a crystalline structure determined by the magnetic properties of its constituent atoms.  What we get is a hexagonal crystal that is less dense that its constituent atoms would be in a liquid form.

I have no way to verify this directly, but I can analyze the claim and determine if it makes sense.  I observe ice floating.  I observe that it breaks along clean lines.  I observe the hexagonal structure of snow-flakes.  I observe nothing which contradicts the expert's claim, nor do I know of another explanation which better explains the phenomena I observe.  Therefore, I accept the claim of the expert even though I have never personally observed a hexagonal ice crystal.  This is not because he is called "expert," but because his claim makes sense.

If a purported expert made the claim about hexagonal ice crystals in a books but I observed that real ice is an amorphous goo that sinks in water, then I would conclude that the alleged expert was wrong, in spite of his title.

I will not take the word of an expert on faith if it conflicts with my reasoning and observation.  The claims have to make logical sense and fit with what I observe.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 03:11:49 PM by Mr. Tweedy »

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eytanz

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Reply #105 on: January 24, 2008, 04:02:58 PM
You know, I sort of bowed out of the expert vs. non-expert debate in the other thread where it came up, because I have a hard time not taking what you are saying personally.

I have a PhD, which I worked very hard for. I spent three years of my life working on a solution to a particular problem, and the solution I came up with is one that explicitly contradicts many people's notions of what makes sense. What you (Mr Tweedy) are saying is, in essence, people who may have spent a whole of an hour or two (if they really made an effort) thinking about something are as competent as judging it as I am after three full years, during which my data and analysis went through several processes of evaluation and review.  In which case, the past six years of my life were a sham - maybe they weren't a waste, in the sense that I got a job out of it, but I sure as hell don't deserve this job according to your standards.

(Note that my PhD is in linguistics, which a lot of people don't accept as a science. That's a whole different debate. But I try to approach my work as a science, and hold it to the standards that are expected from one, which is what matters here)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 04:04:36 PM by eytanz »



Darwinist

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Reply #106 on: January 24, 2008, 04:08:48 PM
Darwinist, being a "Darwin groupie," could you recommend any books on the practical research end of things?  Most of my reading about Evolution (Darwin, Sagan, National Geographic, college textbooks) has been about theory.  I haven't encountered very much discussion about the nuts and bolts science supporting the theory.  I'd be interested in reading something that focussed on specific research.  Any recommendations?

My biggest specific curiosity is to know more about how paleontology is done.

I haven't read much lately about specific research, not since college probably. I get most of my info now from Scientific American (sciam.com) and Natural History (naturalhistorymag.com).   The latter has an interesting point/counterpoint with Behe about ID, BTW.   The journal Nature publishes papers about research in the different fields of science.  That would probably one of the best sources of the information you are looking for.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #107 on: January 24, 2008, 04:42:39 PM
Darwinist: I let my subscription to Scientific American expire a while ago (money was the consideration), but I listen to their podcast every week.  I'll check out Natural History: Thanks for the tip.

Eytanz: Come on, man, you know I'm not insulting you, your competence or your education.  I'm just saying is that if you tell me something that seems fishy, I'll check it out myself.  You surely don't find that insulting?  I would certainly assume that you know 1000% more about linguistics than I do, but does that mean I should blithely swallow whatever you tell me, no matter what it is?

My degree is in art.  If I told you the Romans invented Cubism, would you just believe me because I have a degree or would you say "wait, that doesn't sound right" and check it out for yourself?  When you checked it out and found that Cubism was a 20th century movement, would your opinion of my expertise be diminished?

You aren't a linguist because you have the letters "PhD" after your name.  You are a linguist because you know and understand language.  Substance over appearance.  Reality over symbolism.  Fact over name.  I don't see how you could pull an insult out of that.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 05:07:53 PM by Mr. Tweedy »

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eytanz

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Reply #108 on: January 24, 2008, 05:49:50 PM
Darwinist: I let my subscription to Scientific American expire a while ago (money was the consideration), but I listen to their podcast every week.  I'll check out Natural History: Thanks for the tip.

Eytanz: Come on, man, you know I'm not insulting you, your competence or your education.  I'm just saying is that if you tell me something that seems fishy, I'll check it out myself.  You surely don't find that insulting?  I would certainly assume that you know 1000% more about linguistics than I do, but does that mean I should blithely swallow whatever you tell me, no matter what it is?

No, of course you shouldn't accept stuff I say no matter what it is. No-one should.

But neither should you assume that you have the ability to check whether what I say to you is correct. If you were saying "There are people who are considered experts in their field who say things that conflict with my observations. Therefore, I do not accept what they say; but I accept that it is quite possible that they may still be correct and my observations inadequate", I would consider your attitude enlightened. Rather, you were saying, quite explicitly "There are people who are considered experts that who say things that conflict with my observations. They are wrong, as my observations are better than any recieved wisdom". That is simply arrogance.

Quote
My degree is in art.  If I told you the Romans invented Cubism, would you just believe me because I have a degree or would you say "wait, that doesn't sound right" and check it out for yourself?  When you checked it out and found that Cubism was a 20th century movement, would your opinion of my expertise be diminished?

No, I wouldn't believe you just because you have a degree. But how am I supposed to check this? At best I could go to an encyclopedia and see what the mainstream view is among people with art degrees, or I could go to wikipedia and see what the most popular view is. How is either better according to your criteria?


Quote
You aren't a linguist because you have the letters "PhD" after your name.  You are a linguist because you know and understand language.  Substance over appearance.  Reality over symbolism.  Fact over name.  I don't see how you could pull an insult out of that.

I agree that it is not the letters "PhD" that make me a linguist. What they mean is that other linguists have judged my knowledge and understanding of language, and of the means of researching language, and found it adequate.

More to the point, I am indeed a linguist because of my knowledge and understanding of language and how it works. And that knowledge did not come out of nowhere, I had to work hard to get it. You did not do that work, and therefore do not possess equal levels of knowledge or understanding. Of course, you possess some level of knowledge and understanding, but not the kind that comes from years of training. As an intelligent, educated persons, you have the knowledge and understanding that lets you make observations and figure out if they conflict with my claims. You probably do not possess the knowledge or understanding to evaluate the cause of this discrepency.

Also, let me point out that I didn't say I was insulted, I said I was taking it personally; I meant by that simply that I cannot divorce myself from the argument here - I consider myself one of the people you are subjecting to what I feel is ill-considered blanket criticism. You may not consider me one of them, but that's just because you don't deal with me in my professional capacity in these forums.




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Reply #109 on: January 24, 2008, 06:02:31 PM
Hmm...  That actually a good point.  I stand corrected.  For God to prove His existence in blinding, undeniable ways would not stop people from rejecting Him.  Lots of people in the Bible saw jaw-dropping miracles and still rejected.  The people of Israel walked through the parted Red Sea and were worshiping a metal cow a month later.

I think what that shows us is that blinding, undeniable proofs aren't what convince people to love God.

Mr Tweedy, you either don't know the story (which Iseriously doubt) or you are misrepresnting it.

The people Moses was leading were up to this point polytheastic.  They didn't not believe in Yahweh.  They believed in a whole host of different gods.  Moses didn't tell them how long they were going to be staying in that area, so they started to settle.  This included farming.  The golden cow was the representation of the local god of fertility.  Eventhough smutty Christians love to say that fertility gods are just for sex (spiritual Viagra so to say), they are primarily for farming, praying for the fertility of the land.  The idea being that the people will be able to multiply if there is enough food.  It was only after this that Moses informed them that their new god was jealous and demanded theo-monogamy.

But then again if you look at the history of the region you see that every god was parting waters for everyone back then.  It was a common metaphor.  Whenever someone made a great change in their life for the better, it was said that his god parted the waters for him so that he could walk to the other side.  So instead of saying, "through god's help I was able to kick cocaine", they'd say, "Yahweh parted the waters for me and I was able to walk to the other side of the river where I don't need cocaine."

And The Church of Russell Nash can part the waters for you too.  Just send your prayer in an envelope with $100 bill to cover s/h costs to:

TCoRN
1313 Mockingbird lane
10101 Berlin
Germany

I totally passed over one other thing.  The episode with the Golden Cow happened before the parting of the Red Sea.  Moses parted the sea then walked the ark to the center to hold back the waters while everyone crossed.  The ark was holding the stones he wrote the commandments on.  He smashed the statue of the golden cow when he came down from Mt. Sanai with the commandments.  That means the progression was:

1) Receive the commandments
2) Smash the Golden Cow
3) Smash the commandments and put them in the ark
4) Part the sea

Don't worry.  It's a mistake anyone not familiar with the story could have made.



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #110 on: January 24, 2008, 06:10:39 PM
Hmm...  That actually a good point.  I stand corrected.  For God to prove His existence in blinding, undeniable ways would not stop people from rejecting Him.  Lots of people in the Bible saw jaw-dropping miracles and still rejected.  The people of Israel walked through the parted Red Sea and were worshiping a metal cow a month later.

I think what that shows us is that blinding, undeniable proofs aren't what convince people to love God.

Mr Tweedy, you either don't know the story (which Iseriously doubt) or you are misrepresnting it.

The people Moses was leading were up to this point polytheastic.  They didn't not believe in Yahweh.  They believed in a whole host of different gods.  Moses didn't tell them how long they were going to be staying in that area, so they started to settle.  This included farming.  The golden cow was the representation of the local god of fertility.  Eventhough smutty Christians love to say that fertility gods are just for sex (spiritual Viagra so to say), they are primarily for farming, praying for the fertility of the land.  The idea being that the people will be able to multiply if there is enough food.  It was only after this that Moses informed them that their new god was jealous and demanded theo-monogamy.

But then again if you look at the history of the region you see that every god was parting waters for everyone back then.  It was a common metaphor.  Whenever someone made a great change in their life for the better, it was said that his god parted the waters for him so that he could walk to the other side.  So instead of saying, "through god's help I was able to kick cocaine", they'd say, "Yahweh parted the waters for me and I was able to walk to the other side of the river where I don't need cocaine."

And The Church of Russell Nash can part the waters for you too.  Just send your prayer in an envelope with $100 bill to cover s/h costs to:

TCoRN
1313 Mockingbird lane
10101 Berlin
Germany

I totally passed over one other thing.  The episode with the Golden Cow happened before the parting of the Red Sea.  Moses parted the sea then walked the ark to the center to hold back the waters while everyone crossed.  The ark was holding the stones he wrote the commandments on.  He smashed the statue of the golden cow when he came down from Mt. Sanai with the commandments.  That means the progression was:

1) Receive the commandments
2) Smash the Golden Cow
3) Smash the commandments and put them in the ark
4) Part the sea

Don't worry.  It's a mistake anyone not familiar with the story could have made.

What?  I assume you must be joking, but I'm afraid I don't get it.

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Reply #111 on: January 25, 2008, 03:02:48 AM
Alright... somehow this thread has spawned TCoRN, and I have to cry foul.  It was bad enough to have so many religions out there to not believe in BEFORE the thread started, but now we've created another one?  All I can say is this:

Russell, you'd better be able to produce a universe (you may start with a tree, a mountain and a midget), or prepare to face the wrath of a Noodly Appendage for blasphemy!  Your TCoRN will be milled, yea, and baked into unleavened RAmen...


Mr. Tweedy can bring the chickens for the pie.  :)

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #112 on: January 25, 2008, 04:16:38 AM
Ha ha!  :D  So much to disbelieve, so little time!

We've also invented 4-Wayism and Fuckoffism.  And I might have accidentally declared myself to be all-knowing a few posts up, so that makes Tweedism.

I'd call this thread very productive.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 04:20:28 AM by Mr. Tweedy »

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #113 on: January 25, 2008, 04:58:14 AM
You raise a good point, Eytanz, and it is indeed a conundrum.  If I am not an expert myself, then how can I be qualified to criticize the opinions of an expert?  A layman cannot understand the reasons behind an expert's opinions.

That is certainly a valid point in many situations.  I would contend, however, that its application is limited by several factors.

1.) The esoteric sometimes intersects with the mundane.  A perfect example is of a traveller who has been to the distant country of Zababi, a country about which I know nothing at all.  I will have no cause to doubt him if he tells me that people in Zababi are shorter than people in America, that they eat mostly beef, and that their women wear copper jewelry.  He’s been there.  I haven’t.  He would know.  But if he tells me that people there have three eyes, then I will begin to question, because that does not accord with what I do know about human physiology.

When the expert is speaking on topic that does intersect with my experience, then I have no option but to trust him.  But if the expert’s words have implications in areas that are familiar to me, then I do have some power to judge his claims, even if his field is generally mysterious to me.

2.) Logic is logic.  If an expert contradicts himself, draws conclusions not supported by his evidence or otherwise makes logical errors, then anyone can criticize.

Going back to my traveller, if he tells me on one day that the Zababians are monotheists and on another tells stories about their pantheon, then I can reasonably conclude that not everything he’s told me is true.  I can conclude this even though I don’t know anything about Zababi.

Similarly, I can spot erroneous conclusions.  He tells me that the Zababians eat cats.  I ask how he knows.  He says he knows because his cat vanished mysteriously from his hotel room.  I say that’s not enough evidence to justify the conclusion that all Zababians are cat eaters.

3.) Ulterior motives are sometimes apparent.  When an expert stands to gain personally by making the claims he is making, then suspicion is automatically aroused.  For instance, if our traveler tells us that the Zababians are dangerous conquerors who are libel to attack my city and at the same time opens a gun shop, then I might suspect that it’s a marketing scam.  Again, my suspicion is justified even in ignorance of Zababi.

4.) There’s probably a 4, but I can’t think of it at the moment.


That's if I know nothing.  Of course, if I do know something about the topic at hand, then my ability to criticize increases.  So, while it is sometimes true that a layman is not qualified to question or critique an expert opinion, there are definite and not uncommon times when he is.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 05:07:26 AM by Mr. Tweedy »

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Russell Nash

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Reply #114 on: January 25, 2008, 09:53:44 AM
I totally passed over one other thing.  The episode with the Golden Cow happened before the parting of the Red Sea.  Moses parted the sea then walked the ark to the center to hold back the waters while everyone crossed.  The ark was holding the stones he wrote the commandments on.  He smashed the statue of the golden cow when he came down from Mt. Sanai with the commandments.  That means the progression was:

1) Receive the commandments
2) Smash the Golden Cow
3) Smash the commandments and put them in the ark
4) Part the sea

Don't worry.  It's a mistake anyone not familiar with the story could have made.

What?  I assume you must be joking, but I'm afraid I don't get it.

In your original comment you had the story out of order.  They put up the golden cow and then Mose parted the Red Sea.



eytanz

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Reply #115 on: January 25, 2008, 11:08:43 AM
[In your original comment you had the story out of order.  They put up the golden cow and then Mose parted the Red Sea.

Wait, you're being serious? And you are referring to the book of Exodus, not to some retelling of the story?

I also thought you were making a joke or a reference to some other text I don't know. In the book of exodus, the parting of the red sea (chapters 13 to 15) precedes the golden calf episode (chapter 32) by quite a bit.




Russell Nash

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Reply #116 on: January 25, 2008, 11:52:20 AM
[In your original comment you had the story out of order.  They put up the golden cow and then Mose parted the Red Sea.

Wait, you're being serious? And you are referring to the book of Exodus, not to some retelling of the story?

I also thought you were making a joke or a reference to some other text I don't know. In the book of exodus, the parting of the red sea (chapters 13 to 15) precedes the golden calf episode (chapter 32) by quite a bit.



Shit, shoot me in the foot if I got this backwards, but my reverend had the ark being used as a symbol to keep the sea parted until everyone had crossed and the ark was built to carry the commandments. 

[Going to Wikipedia]
[/Going to Wikipedia]

Shit, that was the Jordan.

But the thing with the ten commandments coming after the Golden Calf still holds water.  Although Wikipedia mentions that there's a question as to whether the Hebrews were praying to another god (possibly Egyptian fertility god Apis) or  that they were making Idols of Yahweh.  The former is breaking the 1st commandement.  The latter is breaking the second.  I contend they were grandfathered in on both counts, because the law wasn't in force before then.

I withdraw my second comment about the Reed Sea, but the first about the arival of the tablets still holds.



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Reply #117 on: January 25, 2008, 12:47:03 PM

2.) Logic is logic.  If an expert contradicts himself, draws conclusions not supported by his evidence or otherwise makes logical errors, then anyone can criticize.




...which is really all we have been doing in this thread.  We've all been too lazy to provide any real "evidence" for our claims, and have been quick to point out each others' mistakes when we make allusions to "evidence" in our argument.

Logically, our mistakes don't matter to the outcome of the discussion.  It's not like anyone is going to say, "Ha!  Mr. Tweedy misquoted a Bible verse, so there must not be a God!"  or "Russell got the story out of order, so there must BE a God!"  The best we can hope is that someone will get a fact right, and even then, that only proves the "infinite number of monkeys" theory.  :)

Now, would I be out of line to ask what the original thesis of this thread was supposed to be?  Because I suspect that would be more interesting to talk about than trying to figure out who knows their Bible best.

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eytanz

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Reply #118 on: January 25, 2008, 01:29:50 PM
2.) Logic is logic.  If an expert contradicts himself, draws conclusions not supported by his evidence or otherwise makes logical errors, then anyone can criticize.

True. But to criticize someone's logic, you need to know what the logic that person used is. In all the examples you quoted on the "Color of the Brontosaurus" thread, your criticism has been on the form "X said Y, but Y conflicts my what I see, therefore Y is wrong". That's nothing at all like saying "X said Y, and the justification given for Y is based on faulty logic.", or "X said Y and Z, and those are not compatible statements".

The reason I take issue with the depiction of the sceintists in tCoB is that they are presented in the same way as you frame your arguments - as if they pull out conclusions (valid or invalid) out of their sleeve, with no line of reasoning behind it. You said that it is apt satire, which implies that you think the this is common practice. That is a very different criticism then "I looked carefully at what that person said and found flaws in their reasoning" - once you do that, then you are doing science. That's what a large part of my research consists of - finding the flaws in other people's reasoning so that I can explain why their conclusions are different than mine. Other linguists look over my work and find the flaws in my reasoning, and publish that. This is as important a part of the scientific process as the gathering of new data.

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3.) Ulterior motives are sometimes apparent.

True. But usually in any sort of point of contention, there are people who stand to gain from any of those positions. The ulterior motives normally cancel each other out. And obviously, often you (or I, or anyone who is being skeptical about a claim) have ulterior motives of our own. We must learn to distrust ourselves just as much as we distrust others if we want to be truly objective.




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Reply #119 on: January 25, 2008, 03:40:34 PM
I didn't mention the arrival of the tablets.  I just said that Israelites were worshipping a metal cow shortly after having seen the Red Sea parted.  (My specific mention of "a month" was an approximation; it was longer than a month, but the sequence is correct.)  Hence, seeing astonishing miracles was not enough to convince them that God was worthy of their full devotion.

That's a pattern that holds throughout the whole Bible.  God performs all sorts of miracles on His own, through prophets, through Christ and through apostles.  The general reaction is for people to ignore God and kill His messengers.

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Thaurismunths

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Reply #120 on: January 25, 2008, 04:23:21 PM
Alright... somehow this thread has spawned TCoRN, and I have to cry foul.  It was bad enough to have so many religions out there to not believe in BEFORE the thread started, but now we've created another one?
But there are no other religions. There is only TCoRN (the one true way to What Comes Next), and the Gauntlet of Faith (all things that detract from worship of him).

Quote
All I can say is this:
Russell, you'd better be able to produce a universe (you may start with a tree, a mountain and a midget), or prepare to face the wrath of a Noodly Appendage for blasphemy!  Your TCoRN will be milled, yea, and baked into unleavened RAmen...
Aah, but R-ssell N-sh has already created a universe! For who else could have created such a thing as this reality we live in? You should consider yourself fortunate to be in it and praise him for giving you existence.

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Mr. Tweedy can bring the chickens for the pie.  :)
And that would be right and good for they are ultimately R-ssell N-ash's chickens and he would like them returned.

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #121 on: January 25, 2008, 05:09:41 PM
Posh!  Russell Nash does not exist!  You are fools to waste your time revering a being who is clearly fictitious.

I demand as proof of his existence that he send me a case of that great German chocolate I hear so much about, each piece wrapped in a 100 Euro bill, delivered by one of his children dressed in a panda suit.  If he is real, this should be easily within his power.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 05:12:55 PM by Mr. Tweedy »

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Bdoomed

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Reply #122 on: January 25, 2008, 09:21:05 PM
The Great N-sh does not need to prove his infinate power to you!
but if you wish him to, please send your request in form of a prayer of submission and 100 Euros to cover shipping and handling to

TCoRN
1313 Mockingbird lane
10101 Berlin
Germany

praise N-sh

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #123 on: January 26, 2008, 12:50:58 AM
Posh!  Russell Nash does not exist!  You are fools to waste your time revering a being who is clearly fictitious.

I demand as proof of his existence that he send me a case of that great German chocolate I hear so much about, each piece wrapped in a 100 Euro bill, delivered by one of his children dressed in a panda suit.  If he is real, this should be easily within his power.


A group of pandas bearing Euro-wrapped chocolates came by my house today, but they didn't have any ID, and I was too busy fornicating and worshipping my collection of Billy Joel CDs to pay any attention to them... you don't suppose they'll send a flood or Fire from the Sky to sort me out, do you?  Now THAT might convince me...

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #124 on: January 26, 2008, 02:59:10 AM
I think you're safe, TAD.  I don't think Russellism considers fornication a sin.  (Can't say about Billy Joel.)

Eytanz, I am content that we agree that laymen are not helpless in critiquing expert opinion or deducing that not all experts are genuine, even though we disagree as to how many charlatans there actually may be in any given field.  In the future I think that–









Mr. Tweedy has been crushed beneath a very large box of Euro-wrapped German chocolates.  According to the roll of the Great 4-Sided Die, he has been reincarnated as a three-toed sloth.  He is content in this new form, but he unfortunately no longer possesses fingers with which to type.

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