Author Topic: Politics in the US vs. politics in Europe  (Read 14864 times)

Anarkey

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Re: Politics in the US vs. politics in Europe
« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2007, 10:39:34 AM »

There's a wiki article on the topic somewhere... Basically America sometimes stands outside global debates, in exactly the same way that Britain stands outside EU debates...  Some have suggested that this is self-reinforcing.  Being perceived as a big enough fish to stand outside gives that country a degree of freedom that other's don't possess.

Ah, see, if you'd just said Manifest Destiny (yes, everything I know I learned from Schoolhouse Rock), I'd have known instantly what you were talking about.  Thanks for the link and clarification.
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ClintMemo

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Re: Politics in the US vs. politics in Europe
« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2007, 10:56:30 AM »
Ah, see, if you'd just said Manifest Destiny (yes, everything I know I learned from Schoolhouse Rock), I'd have known instantly what you were talking about.  Thanks for the link and clarification.


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Michael

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Re: Politics in the US vs. politics in Europe
« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2007, 12:08:54 PM »
Quote
So, you know, if you're NOT saying that gay marriage and abortion have no real world effects and are useless mental exercises, now would be a good time to explicitly say so.

Obviously the person who feels oppressed--or has fear of potentially being oppressed--feels strongly their rights are, or may be,  potentially violated.  This is a valid concern.  But what is the motivation of the oppressor?  Why do they care what you do with your body, who you have sex with, how does it affect them what you do?  Why do people have the time to devote to oppressing you? This is what I am speaking to.  The United States has become a nation of busybodies minding each others business, and that is due to an excess of disposable time.  The busybodies are equally pernicious on the left as the right--for example, throwing paint on people who wear certain valuable clothes becasue they are offended by fur.  "Being offended" is a national pastime. People feel it is acceptable to not accept other's choices.   I do view it as a symptom of a nation in decline.   

You asked me to clarify, so I did.  Anything further on this would be getting sucked into an off topic debate. 

ClintMemo

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Re: Politics in the US vs. politics in Europe
« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2007, 12:20:30 PM »
So do you think that people in the U.S. generally have more free time than people Europe?
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Michael

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Re: Politics in the US vs. politics in Europe
« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2007, 03:14:41 PM »
Quote
So do you think that people in the U.S. generally have more free time than people Europe?


That is a very good question.  The people who work in America work pretty hard--officially less holidays, longer work week, and less vacation than most of Europe, but our "American Association of Retired Persons" has 34 Million Members at present.  There are still many stay at home spouses and under-employed types--usually on some form of disability.  Problem is the numbers are not good.  Our way of calculating unemployment statistics are wildly inacurrate and designed to make the number as small as possible, to make the economy and politicians look good--it is easier not to be counted as unemployed than counted.   

My argument is that meddlers get to be meddlers becasue all their basic needs are met and they have free time to kill. With that in mind free time is not the only factor, Maslows hierarchy is.  Requires free time plus nothing personal to worry about or work on--this is when you start addressing abstractions.
As an example, my grandparents kept a small farm in addition to their other jobs--when they had Sunday Chicken they had to kill the bird and clean it first.  My mother didn't have a farm, but kept a Garden.  I do none of these things, and pay someone to mow my lawn.  Each generation worked, but I have tons more disposable time. 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 03:27:36 PM by Michael »

Mr. Tweedy

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Re: Politics in the US vs. politics in Europe
« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2007, 05:10:17 PM »
I've been trying hard to be good here and not say anything that could be construed as inflammatory, fomenting, insulting or otherwise bad, but I feel like I really need to say something in defense at this point.  Between Anarkey, Michael and Palimpsest, I and people who share my beliefs have been handily characterized as bigoted, misogynistic oppressors.  There have been lots of examples.  Here's one concise enough to quote:

But what is the motivation of the oppressor?  Why do they care what you do with your body, who you have sex with, how does it affect them what you do?  Why do people have the time to devote to oppressing you? This is what I am speaking to.  The United States has become a nation of busybodies minding each others business, and that is due to an excess of disposable time. 

You can say whatever you want (free speech and all) but you should be aware that you do not understand at all what motivates people like me to be, for instance, opposed to abortion.  You don't seem to grasp my motivation or my thinking on these topics.  You ask, Michael, what motivates the "oppressor," which means me, in this case, but I know that if I give you my simple, honest answer, you will take reflexive offense and won't even listen.  I would encourage you to at least try to understand where your opposition is coming from instead of dismissing everyone you don't understand as a "busybody."
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Michael

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Re: Politics in the US vs. politics in Europe
« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2007, 10:36:44 PM »
Mr. Tweedy, I did not identify you as an oppressor, nor did I think of you when I typed what I did.  I tried to be as balanced as possible and took pains to point out other abstract examples not at all related to abortion so as not to engage in yet another useless internet flame war about abortion. The mention of that word is a red flag that brings intense hatred from both sides.  That I labelled it a useless discussion was enough to bring outrage, but useless it is.  Pro-choice believe in pro-choice for deeply held beliefs of freedom.  Pro-life believe in pro-life for deeply held values of the sanctity of life--these are terminal human values which are essentially immutable--it is in your basic personalities and was set in stone by late adolescence.  They will never agree with you, you will never agree with them.  Shouting at each other about it provides only heat never light.         

It is the policy of the owner of this board that this not go there, which is why I am trying not to let it go there.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 10:38:31 PM by Michael »

Anarkey

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Re: Politics in the US vs. politics in Europe
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2007, 06:29:21 AM »
Obviously the person who feels oppressed--or has fear of potentially being oppressed--feels strongly their rights are, or may be,  potentially violated.  This is a valid concern.

You asked me to clarify, so I did.  Anything further on this would be getting sucked into an off topic debate. 


Good enough for me.  I'm no longer offended.  Thanks for clarifying.  Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion of EU minutiae (I apologize for the thread derail).
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Heradel

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Re: Politics in the US vs. politics in Europe
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2008, 05:01:37 PM »
Necromance!

Since the Politics in Britain thread has had a bit of play, I want to see if anyone has anything more to add to this discussion, or if someone new wants to join in.

Also, there's an election on over here that will cost about $2.5 billion (Presidential+Congressional+States, Source: BMJ), which would probably pay for most of the elections in Europe.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 05:06:10 PM by Heradel »
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Re: Politics in the US vs. politics in Europe
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2008, 08:15:57 PM »
If I ever move to another country, it'll probably be Australia.  It's a nice place to live, and it has Sean McMullen and the girl who runs ifeelmyself.com (NSFW URL), and it's close to New Zealand as well.  Plus, I don't think it has a lot of really "important" nuclear targets, so if we get hit with a nuclear winter, it's more likely that good chunks of Australia will still be standing.  At least, I think so.

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