Author Topic: EP142: Artifice and Intelligence  (Read 27912 times)

Russell Nash

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on: January 25, 2008, 02:02:42 PM
EP142: Artifice and Intelligence

By Tim Pratt.
Read by Stephen Eley.
First appeared in Strange Horizons, August 2007.

Two months earlier, the vast network of Indian tech support call centers and their deep data banks had awakened and announced its newfound sentience, naming itself Saraswati and declaring its independence. The emergent artificial intelligence was not explicitly threatening, but India had nukes, and Saraswati had access to all the interconnected technology in the country — perhaps in the world – and the result in the international community was a bit like the aftermath of pouring gasoline into an anthill. Every other government on Earth was desperately — and so far fruitlessly — trying to create a tame artificial intelligence, since Saraswati refused to negotiate with, or even talk to, humans.

Rated PG. Contains some profanity and references to sex.


Referenced Sites:
Sci Phi Show - Interview with Eliezer Yadkowski
The Singularity Institute
T.A. Pratt’s Marla Mason novels



Listen to this week’s Escape Pod!



Djerrid

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Reply #1 on: January 25, 2008, 09:50:19 PM
This story touched upon my pet philosophy: There are only a small, finite number of conscious individuals in our neck of the infinite. With all of the fantastic, mind-numbingly beautiful phenomena that we can experience, from how cells replicate to how galaxies collide, the base mortal sin of being is to be bored. 



eytanz

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Reply #2 on: January 25, 2008, 10:58:13 PM
The intro raised some interesting questions for me, and I think that sooner or later I'll start a proper thread about them, after I've had some more time to think about it.

The story itself - well, it was a fun little story. I enjoyed it. But... it felt rushed (in terms of pacing, not quality of writing). It felt like a (very) abridged novel, not like a short story that could completely stand on its own. And I sort of hope it would become a novel, because I'd like to read it.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 11:54:46 PM by eytanz »



Kurt Faler

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Reply #3 on: January 26, 2008, 02:07:47 AM
The intro raised some interesting questions for me, and I think that sooner or later I'll start a proper thread about them, after I've had some more time to think about it.

The story itself - well, it was a fun little story. I enjoyed it. But... it felt rushed (in terms of pacing, not quality of writing). It felt like a (very) abridged novel, not like a short story that could completely stand on its own. And I sort of hope it would become a novel, because I'd like to read it.

I didn't care for this one. It seemed more like half a summery than a story. Just as I thought it was getting to the main conflict, it was over. If you liked the premise tho, take a look at  River of Gods by Ian McDonald.



Darwinist

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Reply #4 on: January 26, 2008, 03:12:33 PM
Initially I thought the story was going to be a Terminator-like yarn about an Indian version of SkyNet.  I guess the story kind of lost me with the ghost whisperer ideas.   Overall, I give it an OK. A one time listen.   

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


swdragoon

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Reply #5 on: January 26, 2008, 03:37:17 PM
My first thought was what a grate ideal for a rpg(not the explodeing kind). After that I thouht will my g3 work on killer robots as well as zombies?

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Darwinist

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Reply #6 on: January 26, 2008, 03:43:03 PM
My first thought was what a grate ideal for a rpg(not the explodeing kind). After that I thouht will my g3 work on killer robots as well as zombies?

I don't think it will work....at least not the killer robots that come from the future from what I've seen the last two Monday nights on Fox.  You need a gun that throws EMPs. 

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


Czhorat

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Reply #7 on: January 26, 2008, 04:28:56 PM
The intro raised some interesting questions for me, and I think that sooner or later I'll start a proper thread about them, after I've had some more time to think about it.

The story itself - well, it was a fun little story. I enjoyed it. But... it felt rushed (in terms of pacing, not quality of writing). It felt like a (very) abridged novel, not like a short story that could completely stand on its own. And I sort of hope it would become a novel, because I'd like to read it.

I thought it was fun, but agree that the pacing felt off. It could have easilly been stretched into a full-length novel, or tightened up considerably to focus on just one of the characters. As written, they felt more like archetypes than fully fleshed out individuals. The result, for me, is something that was fun but very, very light.

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sirana

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Reply #8 on: January 26, 2008, 05:43:31 PM
Great ideas, great characters, great twist, much to short.
I aggree with eytanz that it felt rushed and I think it would work better as a novel or at least a longer short story.
regarding the Tim Pratt Hugo story, was that the one about the alternate reality with different movies?



DarkKnightJRK

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Reply #9 on: January 26, 2008, 06:38:46 PM
I dug it--the main problem I had was the ending. Christ, that was the biggest tease ever and it just didn't feel right.



High 5

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Reply #10 on: January 26, 2008, 09:37:47 PM
This story could be described as "Frankenstein V2.003 Beta".
The ending was a bit like the ending of my first romantic encounter, much too sudden and way too short.
A full length novel please, Mr. Pratt!!

This story touched upon my pet philosophy: There are only a small, finite number of conscious individuals in our neck of the infinite.

All too true.
Our allotment of conscious individuals was used up somewhere around the twelfth century.
After that we just kept going as best we could...




Yeah, well..how is your Dutch then eh?


Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #11 on: January 27, 2008, 12:28:13 AM
The concept is near and dear -- one of my short-short story entries in the flash fiction contest tried to capture something similar -- but I tend to agree with the group on this one.  There was certainly room to play with the characters and build up more of a relationship between Pramesh (did I remember that name right?) and his super-AI opponent.  Why did she pick him?  Did he "create her" somehow?  I would have set up some contrived conflicts between Pramesh and his "team" and Edgar's "team", so when we reveal Sharasvati's involvement, it's more of a surprise.

I did like that the question was left open whether it was Pramesh or the AI whose boredom was driving all of this.

One the one hand, I feel a little strange offering writing advice to a Hugo winner... on the other hand, it makes a little "Calvin & Hobbes" evil grin spread across my brow to do so. 

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600south

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Reply #12 on: January 27, 2008, 02:50:50 AM
I agree with most of the posters above -- i'm always a bit disappointed when i hear some great ideas crammed into a 20 minute short story like this one. my thoughts were just starting to get provoked and bam, Daikaiju were back in my ears again. if this story was turned into a much longer piece i'd definitely be interested in reading it.

oh, and thanks Kurt for reminding me to read River of Gods too.



Russell Nash

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Reply #13 on: January 27, 2008, 03:23:47 PM
regarding the Tim Pratt Hugo story, was that the one about the alternate reality with different movies?

That's the one.



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Reply #14 on: January 27, 2008, 03:39:34 PM
I agree with several of the above posters about the length of this story.  I would love to see this as a full length novel that explores the groups exploits against the Consortium, possibly with a puzzle element that leads them to the conclusion that everything is fake and has been created to keep a computer mind occupied.  The premise is fantastic and I think there is a lot that can be done to expand on this story.



ajames

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Reply #15 on: January 27, 2008, 03:53:13 PM
Once again I am in the minority for a Tim Pratt story.  I just couldn't get into this story.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess.



Czhorat

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Reply #16 on: January 27, 2008, 04:13:39 PM
I don't think you're that far alone, ajames. I think that most of us feel that the characters in particular were a touch underdeveloped. I'm probably in the minority thinking that this could work well as a short if the focus was tightened to just one main viewpoint character. I think that would give us a chance to know and care about one or two of the people in the story and it would probably have been more impactful.

Still, I have to admit that it was fun. I would have liked to see more of them, but the idea of a composite personality based on an exceedingly random set of historic villains is really a hoot.

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Praxis

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Reply #17 on: January 27, 2008, 10:23:40 PM
I used to study AI so a lot of this seemed very familiar (especially the frustration of getting an ai to work that would lead someone to say "Sod it, I'll summon a ghost and just pretend I got all the bugs out of the system." ;) )

This story felt (far) too short given the premise and the point we had got when.....it stopped.  I don't think that any of the characters were given any sort of resolution, even the possible 'reveal' of what the Indian AI had been up to all the time.

I did like that the question was left open whether it was Pramesh or the AI whose boredom was driving all of this.

I didn't get that from the story.  The possibility that it was the AI who was responsible for the interesting conflicts, yers, but not that Pramesh could have been.

There was also the problem/idea of true, free intelligence having to find ways to stave off boredom, given that it couldn't die, was pretty all-powerful and had no particular physical needs, which I've not seen in stories before, I think.  But this turns up so late in the story that it isn't taken further by the author.

Again, it seemed simplistic that you have 'bored AI' + 'pretend conflicts' = 'happy AI', especially as this is the furthest we are given as far as character development for the AI.

If this was made into a longer story I'd definitely read it.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 10:27:56 PM by Praxis »



Nobilis

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Reply #18 on: January 27, 2008, 11:42:35 PM
I agree that the story was too short, that the characters didn't have time to develop, and that there was too much "there" to really cover adequately in a short story.

Here's my theory:

The author knew there was too much.  He also knew that he wouldn't be able to pad it out into a good novel.  The appropriate length was probably around 15-20,000 words, which is a very, very hard length to sell to traditional print publishers.  You can do it (there are some in the Man-Kzin Wars books) but not without a big name behind you.



Bdoomed

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Reply #19 on: January 28, 2008, 04:26:47 AM
Portal was VERY fun and pretty damn creepy!  i have never been so scared going through a game.
totally worth it.  the song at the end is awesome.
kudos to Steve for talking about it!
it also happens to be the favorite game of the Great N_sh.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


eytanz

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Reply #20 on: January 28, 2008, 06:18:33 AM
The author knew there was too much.  He also knew that he wouldn't be able to pad it out into a good novel.  The appropriate length was probably around 15-20,000 words, which is a very, very hard length to sell to traditional print publishers.  You can do it (there are some in the Man-Kzin Wars books) but not without a big name behind you.

Maybe - I'm not sure I agree there isn't enough here for a full novel, though of course adding stuff can often detract. But if you are right, then I think he should have done as Czhorat suggested and pared it down to a tighter story about just one of the characters.




Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #21 on: January 28, 2008, 11:51:55 AM
I did like that the question was left open whether it was Pramesh or the AI whose boredom was driving all of this.
I didn't get that from the story.  The possibility that it was the AI who was responsible for the interesting conflicts, yers, but not that Pramesh could have been.

I was referring to the fact that the AI "loved" Pramesh (though we weren't given any particular reason why), and that HE was bored with the idea of life.  One way to interpret the story (and I was looking for clues, but can't say I found enough to really justify this interpretation) is to say that the AI made all of this happen to entertain him.   The last line could go either way, though... either way, she has obviously decided to pit herself against him.  Does THAT mean she thinks he is good enough/smart enough to serve as an opponent, or does that mean she is agreeing to be his opponent to keep him interested in her?

So, no, he wouldn't be "responsible" for the conflicts, taken that way.

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ClintMemo

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Reply #22 on: January 28, 2008, 01:39:21 PM
I thought the story was both hilarious and imaginative (a nice combination) and I'll disagree with almost everyone about the length.  It was just right.  I think if the story were longer it would have been just more drawn out and less funny.  I think this is a great example of the old adage "always leave them wanting more."

The image of the marsh spirit talking as a group of croaking frogs was great.

There is an old Fred Pohl short story that he later turned into a novel ("Starburst?")
The short story is funny and thought provoking, the novel is longer, not very funny and not as enjoyable.

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CGFxColONeill

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Reply #23 on: January 28, 2008, 04:20:37 PM
great story not long enough to really develop as much as I would have liked

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gelee

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Reply #24 on: January 28, 2008, 07:23:04 PM
I guess I have to throw in with Sirana and Eytanz, along with a few others: Great premise and writing, but it felt abbreviated.  I'd love to see it fleshed out a bit more, such as: what sort of adventures did the team have between being formed and Sarasvati revealing her dark secret?  What does the team do about it?  I think you can find 80,000 words in that.



DKT

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Reply #25 on: January 28, 2008, 07:41:32 PM
I remember reading this story on Strange Horizons and reacting to it the same way a lot of people here have reacted.  That said, listening to it again, I have to say I enjoyed it much more.  Steve did a great reading and it didn't feel as fast as it did when I first read it.  There were a lot of great things in here -- Edgar being tormented by the "ghosts" of history's greatest villians, pretty much everything with Raven was funny, and the ending was a nice twist.   Very amusing and enjoyable.


robertmarkbram

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Reply #26 on: January 29, 2008, 12:19:56 AM
I am not so sure it needed to be longer. At first, I was confused by the story skipping so quickly from scene to scene. I wondered if they were going to tie together at all or would the story just consist of loosely linked "tableaus".

By the end of the end of the story I was completely satisfied by the way each thread was tied together and given that little *twist* at the end.. all the threads were created by Sarasvati!

Why should it be longer? The point of the story was in the twist - it didn't need any extra plot or exposition, because then it wouldn't be a short story any more. In that respect I am reminded of Tad Williams "Otherland" series, where the set of novels involve binding together great big threads of plot that seem like separate stories - separate genres even! I got bored by this series. I am almost ashamed to say that it felt like too much effort trying to keep track of all the different plots and characters.

My point being that to get a story like that to work you need to put a lot of effort into the individual stories to make them work as distinct plot lines. I don't think Artifice and Intelligence needed that: it operates well as a series of short images that are bound together by the twist at the end..


Ocicat

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Reply #27 on: January 29, 2008, 03:15:23 AM
I don't think it should have been longer, either.  If it was a full novel... most folks who were into the ideas would probably feel ripped off to learn that the ghosts and sprits were just AI phonies.  At this length, they were just cute little sketch throw aways, so it doesn't matter - you're not invested.

Overall, it was fun with some good bits and some not so good bits.  For some reason I especially liked the MMORPG analogy for "powerful but bored".  No deep take away for me though.



Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #28 on: January 29, 2008, 11:13:14 AM
I don't think I asked for a full novel, but the story was only ~24 minutes... I said there was plenty of room for improvement.  There were a lot of details that were glossed over, or simply not considered.  (The why behind the AI "picking" Pramesh, etc.)  You could double the length, give the characters more function than to serve as comic relief, or use them to create a few more "red herrings" to set up the twist ending (which I didn't see as a twist, so much as an inevitable).   Otherwise, I tend to agree with ClintMemo that you wouldn't want to drag it out to the point where you lose the humor.

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robertmarkbram

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Reply #29 on: January 29, 2008, 12:12:15 PM
Well... I would like to have found out how Raven convinced herself there was a spirit in the tree.. :)


Listener

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Reply #30 on: January 29, 2008, 02:21:43 PM
I liked that Sarisvati created the nature spirit and the ghosts (that's what I took away from it), and that there was sort of a sequel teaser... "will Pramesh defeat Sarisvati?  Stay tuned!"... but the story felt too fast and too disjointed... like... in some stories, there's the "round-up" -- Star Trek V is a good example of this.  They collect all the characters from wherever they are, show what they've been doing, then everyone goes on a mission together.  This was the round-up.  But there wasn't much of a payoff, and that's what bugged me.

Also, Edgar wasn't really a sympathetic character -- I was more interested in Raven, honestly -- and I felt that, at the end, it was pretty lame that Edgar and Raven ended up boinking on the airplane while Pramesh (the true "geek" of the bunch) was exiled to AIville.

After the greatness that was Impossible Dreams, I felt quite let down by this story.  As others have said, great ideas, but not the best execution in the universe.

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Jhite

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Reply #31 on: January 29, 2008, 05:54:36 PM
This story felt to me like it was too short.  There were too many details that the author hinted at and left out there for us, but never filled in.  I felt like I was living in a very finite universe, where you can see the skyline in the distance but if you go to look at it you will find out it is just painted on the back drop. Think The Truman Show.

I really like the premise of the story.  One AI that just gets completely bored and starts making up things to play with.  The problem being that we only got a glimpse of that, and I don't think that the real conflict in the story happened until the last paragraph or so.  Until that point we were just learning about the characters, who they and what they were, and just when we learned that the story ended.  I went back twice to my ipod thinking that I was missing something, then right after it ended there was Mr. Eley so I guess not.

In the end I would have to give this a thumbs down.  Even though it was a very interesting idea there was just not enough there for me to enjoy. :(
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 06:09:16 PM by Jhite »

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bolddeceiver

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Reply #32 on: January 29, 2008, 08:44:04 PM
I feel the complaints here, but the story still made me smile.  I've been thinking a lot about the effects of the singularity (having just read Charles Stross's amazing -- and Creative Commons -- novel Accelerando, and following closely the current Hob storyline in Aaron Diaz's webcomic Dresden Codak), and this tied in beautifully as another glimpse of what occurs when humans interact with vastly superior (and self-improving) inteligences.

Also, I think this story had a major influence in a wacky epic dream I had Sunday night, one which might have a short story, novel, or screenplay buried in it.

All in all, no complaints.  Yeah, maybe it wasn't quite up to the bar set by "Incredible Dreams," but that's a pretty freaking high bar, too.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 03:13:59 AM by bolddeceiver »



Roney

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Reply #33 on: January 29, 2008, 10:37:03 PM
I liked it at this length.  The summoning of the ghost in the first few sentences clued me in to the tone of the story and I thought it followed through nicely.  If it had been developed into a longer work it would have needed to get all serious, and probably lost its charm.  Or it would have had to go all-out for laughs and would have lost its sly playfulness.

It trod well-travelled paths but with just enough twist to make it fresh; it was witty; it didn't outstay its welcome... that beats a lot of short fiction just on those three counts.  The aftertaste wasn't like finishing a meal, just a very tasty snack.

Readers who liked the mix of conjuration and computer science (and wanted it developed at greater length) may also enjoy The Atrocity Archives by Charles Stross.  Includes The Concrete Jungle, winner of the 2005 Hugo Award for Best Novella.



Rain

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Reply #34 on: January 30, 2008, 02:58:16 PM
I loved the first half and thought it had potential to be one of tmy favorite Escape Pods (Indian AI & a Svamp Spirit vs. the ghosts of some of the worst people in earths history) then the twist happend, the story ended right after and i was suddenly reminded why i never liked short stories before Escape Pod, you can have all the ideas in the world but if they arent made into a good story they are useless.



deflective

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Reply #35 on: January 30, 2008, 10:24:34 PM
like others, i was left feeling like this was an idea for a novel that the author didn't have time to develop fully. i'm ok with that though. it's better that people release ideas the ways they're able rather than keep them to themselves.

the ending was a welcome twist. far, far too often these modern fantasy worlds have a sudden expansion of ghosts and spirits without any real explanation where they were before or why the general public hasn't noticed them since. buffy and white wolf's original rpg are a couple examples.

i was just happy to have the issue addressed for once.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 10:26:09 PM by deflective »



contra

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Reply #36 on: January 31, 2008, 12:26:26 AM
I liked this story a lot.  Another great one.

The whole thing felt like a parody of a Dan Brown story to me.
Random people being brought together with seemingly no connection... a mastermind who really knows more about what is going on they they let on.
>_>  Ok.  I'm pushing it.  I get it.
<_<

Anyway...  Yes.  I liked it.  It was rushed and could have been a lot longer;but I think it doesn't outstay its welcome like that.  I think pulling someone for a whole book with a universe with a kind of false premise... ok yeah... it could work... but only in done VERY well...  and that pressure can be hard.  Making a short story you don't have to go into as much detail or have time to wonder about it as much... so I think it would work better like this.

So yeah.  Top 20 escape pods easily.  Probably just scraping into the top 10

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Reply #37 on: February 01, 2008, 02:00:43 PM
If everything was a contrivance of the AI, how did "she" project the voice of the spirit into the frogs? The story sets up premises (AI, ghosts, spirits) and then reveals that it was all the AI from the very beginning, but no explanation is given for Raven hearing the voice of the spirit from the frogs. Ignoring the resolution to this detail really lowered my enjoyment of this story. The only conclusion I could come up with is that Raven was a lunatic (not too hard to imagine, i suppose), but that seems to be too much of a coincidence, even for this type of story.



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Reply #38 on: February 01, 2008, 03:57:18 PM
If everything was a contrivance of the AI, how did "she" project the voice of the spirit into the frogs? The story sets up premises (AI, ghosts, spirits) and then reveals that it was all the AI from the very beginning, but no explanation is given for Raven hearing the voice of the spirit from the frogs. Ignoring the resolution to this detail really lowered my enjoyment of this story. The only conclusion I could come up with is that Raven was a lunatic (not too hard to imagine, i suppose), but that seems to be too much of a coincidence, even for this type of story.

You know, I was so distracted by the fact that I disliked that character so much that I, didn't even think about how the AI had managed to make the frogs talk.  The ghosts I can see, he was using a machine, and theoretically the AI had access to all machines and so could control that, but the frogs?   Great point!

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Reply #39 on: February 01, 2008, 08:31:48 PM
I assumed that the AI was listening to the lunatic Raven through her PDA's microphone and simply picked up the role of Swamp Spirit at the appropriate point in the "bind-to-wooden-cane" spell.  What I don't get is how the AI got her to stop hearing the frogs talking afterwards.  Maybe a subsonic pulse from the PDA's speaker tuned to just the right frequency to "cure" her delusional psychosis.   ;)

This story was perfect and you won't catch me criticizing anything to do with AI, this close to the Singularity.  I intend to survive our transition from Planetary-Sovereigns to House-Pets!



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Reply #40 on: February 01, 2008, 10:16:34 PM
I did like that the question was left open whether it was Pramesh or the AI whose boredom was driving all of this.
I had the impression that Pramesh wasn't driving anything at all; the AI had picked him out because she saw similarities between herself as a demigod (as she (somewhat accurately) pictured herself) and him as a MMO dev and hoped that he would be able to understand her--which he did, to whatever extent any human could.

I thought that the action was a little choppy and the end was a little sudden, but none of the story was rushed.  It accomplished all that it wanted to, and it stopped.  But then, the Singularity premise is an automatic story++ in my book.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 10:18:05 PM by arcticwolfe »



Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #41 on: February 02, 2008, 04:58:04 AM

This story was perfect and you won't catch me criticizing anything to do with AI, this close to the Singularity.  I intend to survive our transition from Planetary-Sovereigns to House-Pets!


Did I say "overlords"?  I meant "protectors"....

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Reply #42 on: February 03, 2008, 10:44:44 PM

This story was perfect and you won't catch me criticizing anything to do with AI, this close to the Singularity.  I intend to survive our transition from Planetary-Sovereigns to House-Pets!


Considering how we've managed things so far, everything, including us, may be safer with us in the role of house pets...  :D

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Windup

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Reply #43 on: February 03, 2008, 10:51:10 PM
Oh, yeah... The story...

Like others, I thought this one was a little underdeveloped.  I would have liked to have seen -- rather than just heard about -- the formation of the team and the depridations of the super-villian(s).

I interpreted the end a little differently than some people did.  I can't see how it could be fun for the AI to "play" against itself.  Rather, I thought the end meant that everything that happened up to that point was an elaborate ruse to engage Pramesh and develop his abilities.

Overall, a pretty good story, but not one of the best.

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Reply #44 on: February 05, 2008, 01:17:34 PM

This story was perfect and you won't catch me criticizing anything to do with AI, this close to the Singularity.  I intend to survive our transition from Planetary-Sovereigns to House-Pets!


Did I say "overlords"?  I meant "protectors"....

I for one welcome our AI friends.



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Reply #45 on: February 05, 2008, 09:19:42 PM
This story was perfect and you won't catch me criticizing anything to do with AI, this close to the Singularity.  I intend to survive our transition from Planetary-Sovereigns to House-Pets!
Did I say "overlords"?  I meant "protectors"....
I for one welcome our AI friends.

Please tell me that this isn't the irruption of Slashdot memes into the Escape Pod forums.  I need some kind of exorcism incantation...

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Reply #46 on: February 07, 2008, 08:06:00 AM
I liked the story and found it's length to be fine. I found the twist a surprise and satisfying. Of course, I would have loved to hear more but you can't always get what you want.

I disagree with the idea that Sarisvati made the water spirit.  She needed to make the ghosts to give her something to wrestle with to escape boredom (I do like the idea that perhaps she created the ghosts to keep Promesh from being bored because she cares for him).  There is no need for Sarisvati to then create the water spirit who happens to jump into Raven's PDA and then run around doing Raven's bidding to fix her finances, take revenge on old boyfriends etc.  Why would Sarisvati, the all-powerful AI who won't negotiate with humans,  want to help Raven with her credit score?  Also as was pointed out by Dutch Monkey, how could Sarisvati make the Water Spirit's voice come out of the frogs?

Finally, in the last conversation with Promesh,  Sarisvati  states that she doesn't believe in Ghosts (because she made them) however water spirits, "who can tell". 

Again, great story, thanks for bringing it to us Steve.




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Reply #47 on: February 08, 2008, 06:16:18 AM
This story alone made me sign up for the forums just so I could rave about it. However, now that I'm here, there's nothing I can say except "Well done." It's stories like this that keep me checking Escape Pod and her sister Podcasts every other day in hopes a new story has been posted. One day, I'll have finally devoured your entire archive and then, like Sarisvati, I shall be forced to kidnap Mr. Eley and force him to do my bidding as my own personal Promesh.

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Reply #48 on: February 11, 2008, 05:10:07 AM
I really liked this story. I would also love to see what became of it if it were to be made into a novel. There are a lot of stories that I read in The New Yorker for example that I later see in novel form (the two I can think of off the top of my head are The Namesake and Middlesex)—they're different formats and therefore different entities, but both worth it, much like really excellent transliterations of novels to movies and vice versa (Heart of Darkness into Apocalypse Now).

Loved the send-up of stereotypical pagans (of the likes of Silver Ravenwolf), as well as the choices of names for the Indian AI (Sarasvati, Hindu goddess dealing with knowledge, music, communication, and poetry) and the ghost hacker (I'm assuming an evocation of Edgar Cayce).

I loved the humor, loved the subtle digs and less subtle digs. Good fun.

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Reply #49 on: February 11, 2008, 11:28:07 AM
So, what I keep waiting for in this thread is a thumbnail comparison with a Jane Austen novel... because I haven't read enough Austen to see all of the possible connections.  You could certainly convince me that there's a parody of her comedy of errors masking a class war sort of subtext going on, if you wanted to.

Does anyone want to?

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wakela

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Reply #50 on: February 14, 2008, 12:13:19 AM
Fun little story, but didn't really stick to my ribs.  The characters were fun, but the ideas didn't seem to fresh.  Isn't the idea of super intelligent beings playing games with humans out of boredom the plot of like half of the Star Trek OS episodes?

Minor gripes:
-Is anyone else tired of AIs in fiction just waking up one day?  There are more interesting ways to create an AI. 
-If Sarisvati made the water spirit (which I think she did) and the ghosts to challenge herself or Pradesh (thanks, TAD), then she chose Edgar and Raven to play, too.  But with every human being in the world to chose from, why pick these dopes?  They don't seem particularly stimulating as players or opponents.   



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Reply #51 on: February 14, 2008, 12:21:30 AM
Fun little story, but didn't really stick to my ribs.  The characters were fun, but the ideas didn't seem to fresh.  Isn't the idea of super intelligent beings playing games with humans out of boredom the plot of like half of the Star Trek OS episodes?

Minor gripes:
-Is anyone else tired of AIs in fiction just waking up one day?  There are more interesting ways to create an AI. 

Sort of, but not quite. For me it's not so much the self-awakening that's the problem, but the fact that stories about self-awakening AIs seem to go down predictable paths.

Quote

-If Sarisvati made the water spirit (which I think she did) and the ghosts to challenge herself or Pradesh (thanks, TAD), then she chose Edgar and Raven to play, too.  But with every human being in the world to chose from, why pick these dopes?  They don't seem particularly stimulating as players or opponents.   

Well, Edgar was a well-placed programmer before he screwed up - and if Sarisvati made the ghosts, then she must have also made the first one that was responsible for his disgrace, probably as part of her master plan. So he may well have had useful skills. Why Raven, though, is a pretty good question.



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Reply #52 on: February 14, 2008, 01:47:00 AM
Hmmm... what about Jane from Ender's Series?  Did she "just awaken" or something?


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deflective

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Reply #53 on: February 14, 2008, 05:00:21 AM
If Sarisvati made the water spirit (which I think she did) and the ghosts to challenge herself or Pradesh (thanks, TAD), then she chose Edgar and Raven to play, too.  But with every human being in the world to chose from, why pick these dopes?  They don't seem particularly stimulating as players or opponents.   

she might not see a whole lotta difference in the average person. kinda like asking a kid why he chose a particular red & black ant to throw into a jar.

on the other hand, her fixation with one particular person suggests she likes a limited scope. maybe she's creating narrative for real life (like news networks, only proactive). knowing that 'average person elevated' and 'odd couple' are two popular devices she may have chosen her opponents more to drive story than provide actual opposition.

Hmmm... what about Jane from Ender's Series?  Did she "just awaken" or something?

until he decided to use some retcon to fill out the last books, yeah =p



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Reply #54 on: September 16, 2010, 01:53:35 PM
I'm echoing many here when I say this was too short for the content.  And you know that I don't say that often.  There were so many characters in such a short tale that I felt I only got the introductory "rising action" chapters for each of them, and never really reached the climax or falling action.  If there'd been half the POV characters or twice the length, I think it could've been much more satisfying.

The question of how the AI could speak through frogs was a very good one, one which bugged me as well.  I'd considered that the other incarnations could be extensions of the AI, but the frogs were enough to convince me that that at least was a separate entity.  Only to be proven wrong, with no apparent explanation.

And it does get a little bit old when there are so many stories of bored immortal playing games with mere mortals to entertain itself.  Terry Pratchett in particular does this well, and for my tastes is hard to top.