EP142: Artifice and Intelligence

[DKT]

I remember reading this story on Strange Horizons and reacting to it the same way a lot of people here have reacted.  That said, listening to it again, I have to say I enjoyed it much more.  Steve did a great reading and it didn't feel as fast as it did when I first read it.  There were a lot of great things in here -- Edgar being tormented by the "ghosts" of history's greatest villians, pretty much everything with Raven was funny, and the ending was a nice twist.   Very amusing and enjoyable.

[robertmarkbram]

I am not so sure it needed to be longer. At first, I was confused by the story skipping so quickly from scene to scene. I wondered if they were going to tie together at all or would the story just consist of loosely linked "tableaus".

By the end of the end of the story I was completely satisfied by the way each thread was tied together and given that little *twist* at the end.. all the threads were created by Sarasvati!

Why should it be longer? The point of the story was in the twist - it didn't need any extra plot or exposition, because then it wouldn't be a short story any more. In that respect I am reminded of Tad Williams "Otherland" series, where the set of novels involve binding together great big threads of plot that seem like separate stories - separate genres even! I got bored by this series. I am almost ashamed to say that it felt like too much effort trying to keep track of all the different plots and characters.

My point being that to get a story like that to work you need to put a lot of effort into the individual stories to make them work as distinct plot lines. I don't think Artifice and Intelligence needed that: it operates well as a series of short images that are bound together by the twist at the end..

[Ocicat]

I don't think it should have been longer, either.  If it was a full novel... most folks who were into the ideas would probably feel ripped off to learn that the ghosts and sprits were just AI phonies.  At this length, they were just cute little sketch throw aways, so it doesn't matter - you're not invested.

Overall, it was fun with some good bits and some not so good bits.  For some reason I especially liked the MMORPG analogy for "powerful but bored".  No deep take away for me though.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

I don't think I asked for a full novel, but the story was only ~24 minutes... I said there was plenty of room for improvement.  There were a lot of details that were glossed over, or simply not considered.  (The why behind the AI "picking" Pramesh, etc.)  You could double the length, give the characters more function than to serve as comic relief, or use them to create a few more "red herrings" to set up the twist ending (which I didn't see as a twist, so much as an inevitable).   Otherwise, I tend to agree with ClintMemo that you wouldn't want to drag it out to the point where you lose the humor.

[robertmarkbram]

Well... I would like to have found out how Raven convinced herself there was a spirit in the tree..

[Listener]

I liked that Sarisvati created the nature spirit and the ghosts (that's what I took away from it), and that there was sort of a sequel teaser... "will Pramesh defeat Sarisvati?  Stay tuned!"... but the story felt too fast and too disjointed... like... in some stories, there's the "round-up" -- Star Trek V is a good example of this.  They collect all the characters from wherever they are, show what they've been doing, then everyone goes on a mission together.  This was the round-up.  But there wasn't much of a payoff, and that's what bugged me.

Also, Edgar wasn't really a sympathetic character -- I was more interested in Raven, honestly -- and I felt that, at the end, it was pretty lame that Edgar and Raven ended up boinking on the airplane while Pramesh (the true "geek" of the bunch) was exiled to AIville.

After the greatness that was Impossible Dreams, I felt quite let down by this story.  As others have said, great ideas, but not the best execution in the universe.

[Jhite]

This story felt to me like it was too short.  There were too many details that the author hinted at and left out there for us, but never filled in.  I felt like I was living in a very finite universe, where you can see the skyline in the distance but if you go to look at it you will find out it is just painted on the back drop. Think The Truman Show.

I really like the premise of the story.  One AI that just gets completely bored and starts making up things to play with.  The problem being that we only got a glimpse of that, and I don't think that the real conflict in the story happened until the last paragraph or so.  Until that point we were just learning about the characters, who they and what they were, and just when we learned that the story ended.  I went back twice to my ipod thinking that I was missing something, then right after it ended there was Mr. Eley so I guess not.

In the end I would have to give this a thumbs down.  Even though it was a very interesting idea there was just not enough there for me to enjoy.

[bolddeceiver]

I feel the complaints here, but the story still made me smile.  I've been thinking a lot about the effects of the singularity (having just read Charles Stross's amazing -- and Creative Commons -- novel Accelerando, and following closely the current Hob storyline in Aaron Diaz's webcomic Dresden Codak), and this tied in beautifully as another glimpse of what occurs when humans interact with vastly superior (and self-improving) inteligences.

Also, I think this story had a major influence in a wacky epic dream I had Sunday night, one which might have a short story, novel, or screenplay buried in it.

All in all, no complaints.  Yeah, maybe it wasn't quite up to the bar set by "Incredible Dreams," but that's a pretty freaking high bar, too.

[Roney]

I liked it at this length.  The summoning of the ghost in the first few sentences clued me in to the tone of the story and I thought it followed through nicely.  If it had been developed into a longer work it would have needed to get all serious, and probably lost its charm.  Or it would have had to go all-out for laughs and would have lost its sly playfulness.

It trod well-travelled paths but with just enough twist to make it fresh; it was witty; it didn't outstay its welcome... that beats a lot of short fiction just on those three counts.  The aftertaste wasn't like finishing a meal, just a very tasty snack.

Readers who liked the mix of conjuration and computer science (and wanted it developed at greater length) may also enjoy The Atrocity Archives by Charles Stross.  Includes The Concrete Jungle, winner of the 2005 Hugo Award for Best Novella.

[Rain]

I loved the first half and thought it had potential to be one of tmy favorite Escape Pods (Indian AI & a Svamp Spirit vs. the ghosts of some of the worst people in earths history) then the twist happend, the story ended right after and i was suddenly reminded why i never liked short stories before Escape Pod, you can have all the ideas in the world but if they arent made into a good story they are useless.

[deflective]

like others, i was left feeling like this was an idea for a novel that the author didn't have time to develop fully. i'm ok with that though. it's better that people release ideas the ways they're able rather than keep them to themselves.

the ending was a welcome twist. far, far too often these modern fantasy worlds have a sudden expansion of ghosts and spirits without any real explanation where they were before or why the general public hasn't noticed them since. buffy and white wolf's original rpg are a couple examples.

i was just happy to have the issue addressed for once.

[contra]

I liked this story a lot.  Another great one.

The whole thing felt like a parody of a Dan Brown story to me.
Random people being brought together with seemingly no connection... a mastermind who really knows more about what is going on they they let on.
>_>  Ok.  I'm pushing it.  I get it.
<_<

Anyway...  Yes.  I liked it.  It was rushed and could have been a lot longer;but I think it doesn't outstay its welcome like that.  I think pulling someone for a whole book with a universe with a kind of false premise... ok yeah... it could work... but only in done VERY well...  and that pressure can be hard.  Making a short story you don't have to go into as much detail or have time to wonder about it as much... so I think it would work better like this.

So yeah.  Top 20 escape pods easily.  Probably just scraping into the top 10

Look at me still talking when there's science to do...

[Dutch Monkey]

If everything was a contrivance of the AI, how did "she" project the voice of the spirit into the frogs? The story sets up premises (AI, ghosts, spirits) and then reveals that it was all the AI from the very beginning, but no explanation is given for Raven hearing the voice of the spirit from the frogs. Ignoring the resolution to this detail really lowered my enjoyment of this story. The only conclusion I could come up with is that Raven was a lunatic (not too hard to imagine, i suppose), but that seems to be too much of a coincidence, even for this type of story.

[Jhite]

If everything was a contrivance of the AI, how did "she" project the voice of the spirit into the frogs? The story sets up premises (AI, ghosts, spirits) and then reveals that it was all the AI from the very beginning, but no explanation is given for Raven hearing the voice of the spirit from the frogs. Ignoring the resolution to this detail really lowered my enjoyment of this story. The only conclusion I could come up with is that Raven was a lunatic (not too hard to imagine, i suppose), but that seems to be too much of a coincidence, even for this type of story.

You know, I was so distracted by the fact that I disliked that character so much that I, didn't even think about how the AI had managed to make the frogs talk.  The ghosts I can see, he was using a machine, and theoretically the AI had access to all machines and so could control that, but the frogs?   Great point!

[colt]

I assumed that the AI was listening to the lunatic Raven through her PDA's microphone and simply picked up the role of Swamp Spirit at the appropriate point in the "bind-to-wooden-cane" spell.  What I don't get is how the AI got her to stop hearing the frogs talking afterwards.  Maybe a subsonic pulse from the PDA's speaker tuned to just the right frequency to "cure" her delusional psychosis.   

This story was perfect and you won't catch me criticizing anything to do with AI, this close to the Singularity.  I intend to survive our transition from Planetary-Sovereigns to House-Pets!

[arcticwolfe]

I did like that the question was left open whether it was Pramesh or the AI whose boredom was driving all of this.

I had the impression that Pramesh wasn't driving anything at all; the AI had picked him out because she saw similarities between herself as a demigod (as she (somewhat accurately) pictured herself) and him as a MMO dev and hoped that he would be able to understand her--which he did, to whatever extent any human could.

I thought that the action was a little choppy and the end was a little sudden, but none of the story was rushed.  It accomplished all that it wanted to, and it stopped.  But then, the Singularity premise is an automatic story++ in my book.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

This story was perfect and you won't catch me criticizing anything to do with AI, this close to the Singularity.  I intend to survive our transition from Planetary-Sovereigns to House-Pets!

Did I say "overlords"?  I meant "protectors"....

[Windup]

This story was perfect and you won't catch me criticizing anything to do with AI, this close to the Singularity.  I intend to survive our transition from Planetary-Sovereigns to House-Pets!

Considering how we've managed things so far, everything, including us, may be safer with us in the role of house pets... 

[Windup]

Oh, yeah... The story...

Like others, I thought this one was a little underdeveloped.  I would have liked to have seen -- rather than just heard about -- the formation of the team and the depridations of the super-villian(s).

I interpreted the end a little differently than some people did.  I can't see how it could be fun for the AI to "play" against itself.  Rather, I thought the end meant that everything that happened up to that point was an elaborate ruse to engage Pramesh and develop his abilities.

Overall, a pretty good story, but not one of the best.

[Russell Nash]

This story was perfect and you won't catch me criticizing anything to do with AI, this close to the Singularity.  I intend to survive our transition from Planetary-Sovereigns to House-Pets!

Did I say "overlords"?  I meant "protectors"....

I for one welcome our AI friends.

[Roney]

This story was perfect and you won't catch me criticizing anything to do with AI, this close to the Singularity.  I intend to survive our transition from Planetary-Sovereigns to House-Pets!

Did I say "overlords"?  I meant "protectors"....

I for one welcome our AI friends.

Please tell me that this isn't the irruption of Slashdot memes into the Escape Pod forums.  I need some kind of exorcism incantation...

In Soviet Russia, a beowulf cluster drives you out!

[glucoseboy]

I liked the story and found it's length to be fine. I found the twist a surprise and satisfying. Of course, I would have loved to hear more but you can't always get what you want.

I disagree with the idea that Sarisvati made the water spirit.  She needed to make the ghosts to give her something to wrestle with to escape boredom (I do like the idea that perhaps she created the ghosts to keep Promesh from being bored because she cares for him).  There is no need for Sarisvati to then create the water spirit who happens to jump into Raven's PDA and then run around doing Raven's bidding to fix her finances, take revenge on old boyfriends etc.  Why would Sarisvati, the all-powerful AI who won't negotiate with humans,  want to help Raven with her credit score?  Also as was pointed out by Dutch Monkey, how could Sarisvati make the Water Spirit's voice come out of the frogs?

Finally, in the last conversation with Promesh,  Sarisvati  states that she doesn't believe in Ghosts (because she made them) however water spirits, "who can tell". 

Again, great story, thanks for bringing it to us Steve.

[Bump In The @]

This story alone made me sign up for the forums just so I could rave about it. However, now that I'm here, there's nothing I can say except "Well done." It's stories like this that keep me checking Escape Pod and her sister Podcasts every other day in hopes a new story has been posted. One day, I'll have finally devoured your entire archive and then, like Sarisvati, I shall be forced to kidnap Mr. Eley and force him to do my bidding as my own personal Promesh.

[DDog]

I really liked this story. I would also love to see what became of it if it were to be made into a novel. There are a lot of stories that I read in The New Yorker for example that I later see in novel form (the two I can think of off the top of my head are The Namesake and Middlesex)—they're different formats and therefore different entities, but both worth it, much like really excellent transliterations of novels to movies and vice versa (Heart of Darkness into Apocalypse Now).

Loved the send-up of stereotypical pagans (of the likes of Silver Ravenwolf), as well as the choices of names for the Indian AI (Sarasvati, Hindu goddess dealing with knowledge, music, communication, and poetry) and the ghost hacker (I'm assuming an evocation of Edgar Cayce).

I loved the humor, loved the subtle digs and less subtle digs. Good fun.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

So, what I keep waiting for in this thread is a thumbnail comparison with a Jane Austen novel... because I haven't read enough Austen to see all of the possible connections.  You could certainly convince me that there's a parody of her comedy of errors masking a class war sort of subtext going on, if you wanted to.

Does anyone want to?