EP143: Flaming Marshmallow and Other Deaths

[Kurt Faler]

"Millennium" has more meanings than just "a thousand years". 

Suppose the machine had given a reading of death by "Millennium Hand and Shrimp"? 

That's the internal error code for "Call Tech Support"

I thought those were "Out of Cheese" and "Redo From Start".

Divide by cucumber error.

But you only need to worry when it st@&$&

END OF LINE

----

[deflective]

It could be a limitation of the machine; it may only be able to process deaths in the next thousand years, and she might not have died yet for as far ahead as it can "see".  So even with the paper, she still doesn't know.

i like this interpretation, she remains a no know even with the machine.

the last line of the story was great. people are people and what most people consider important never changes. when confronted with incredible truth, knowing that you'll outlive everyone around you and knowing that there will be world changes to make that possible, we still instinctively think about social standing. dance, monkeys, dance.

[Nobilis]

She's going to go to school, and she's going to say, "I'm immortal."   Immortals are definitely cooler.  All she has to do is start dressing like a vampire.

[ChiliFan]

What if it was "millennium space entropy" and the reader mispronounced it? Either entropy or atrophy, I think we're talking about "she just couldn't be made to function anymore, not in spite of her old age but because there's just no order to be had in the universe anymore".

Clearly she'd sit with the post-humans 

The cause of death was given as "millenium space entropy". It's not clear to me exactly what this is, but the concept of entropy was featured in the classic Doctor Who story "Logopolis". Find out more on http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/logopolis/ . Basically, they kept saying things like entropy is the second law of thermodynamics, the universe had passed the point of natural heat death, but had been saved using a special type of mathematics.

[ChiliFan]

I really enjoyed this episode of Escape Pod, because it seemed to me that it was condemning cliques. I've heard a lot about cliques, which are basically just a form of social exclusion, harassment or bullying, so I hope this story gets that message across to some more people.



 

[Nobilis]

I really didn't get that, ChiliFan, or at least not strongly.  They seemed to me to be portrayed as a fact of teenage life more than something that was ruining things for her.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

Just to add to the brouhaha over the CoD... maybe the characters were as clueless to what that slip meant as we are.

The cliques forming around the different deaths are suspect, since we (and I presume, the others in the society) don't usually know specifics.  We see them spreading gossip about Flaming Marshmallow boy, but that seems to be the exception... most people only share their broader "category" than their actual death.  For all we know, all of the Burners have equally vague and mysterious "burning" deaths.  Maybe one of them got "Heat death of the universe" and decided that meant "Burning" somehow (not everyone in our universe is up to speed on their science-related vocabulary, so I assume the same is true there).

Seems to me these "slips" could be as vaguely accurate as a horoscopes.

[eytanz]

I really didn't get that, ChiliFan, or at least not strongly.  They seemed to me to be portrayed as a fact of teenage life more than something that was ruining things for her.

I agree - I don't think this story was particularly critical of cliques. It wasn't very positive about them, but it felt more like they were a symptom of the immaturity of the characters than anything particularly negative.

[Kurt Faler]

Maybe Millennium Space Entropy is slang for whatever the latest designer drug is going to be at that time and she actually is dies from an OD. Do those sit with the suicides? 
Nobilis gave me the idea in my head for that with the comment "Heat death of the universe, man...  Millennium Space Entropy." cuz in my head I saw some hippy saying that while sparking up a bong. 

[DDog]

This one was great. The reading really made a difference too, I'm sure I would've gotten something completely different (and less) out of it on paper. (Although I spent half the story trying to place the reader's voice until I realized she'd done that one for PseudoPod about killer snow fairies.)

As for the debate about the slip, I heard "millennium space entropy," grossly mispronounced from how I usually say it. I say "EN-troh-pee." Do other people say "en-TRAH-pee"? (I also say "AT-troh-phee" and not "uh-TRAH-phee" as some seemed to hear 'atrophy.') And I don't know what it means either, but the first thing I thought of was "heat death of the universe"—clearly this chick is Little Orphan Cephalopod from "In the Late December."

[Russell Nash]

I thought the discussion about young folk reading SF and why we started reading SF was really interesting, so I split it off here. 

I'm sure we covered this for a lot of folks before, but it hasn't been a running thread in a very long time.

[deflective]

if a story creates enough discussion on a topic to spawn a separate thread i like the idea of editing the initial post to include a link to it.

especially when the thread discusses the story's intro since it's on the podcast as a whole if not the story in particular.

[Thaurismunths]

So after much speculation on my part I wrote the author to get her side of the story. So, with out further ado!
The answer you've all been waiting for:

I'm not sure I intended Carolyn's actual death in "Flaming Marshmallow and Other Deaths" to have any particular significance, other than for it to sound impossibly distant (particularly to the mind of the teenage main character) and too vague to fit into her preconceived notions about the importance of the cause-of-death revelation.  Of course, it had to be something for her father also to latch onto as impossibly distant (to his relief as a parent).
Thank you (and everyone else over at the Forum) for your passion for speculative fiction and for your willingness to debate and ponder.
If anyone's interested in reading the introduction to the forthcoming Machine of Death anthology, they can find it at
http://www.machineofdeath.net/a/about
Thanks again!
--Camille Alexa

[Kaa]

Wow. Such negative comments.  I really enjoyed this story.  It may not have been the Best Sci-Fi Story Ever Written, Ever, but it was fun, which is all Steve set out to do--bring us fun stories.

It made my commute whiz by, and I was happy for that.

But I want to make a different comment.  It's been a while since I heard this, but either in the intro or the outro, Steve mentioned something about how it was lucky his parents didn't know what was in some of the books on his book shelf when he was a teen, and he specifically mentioned John Varley.

Well...I also had John Varley's books on my shelf as a teenager.  As far as cover art went, they were among the most innocuous ones in my entire collection.  Inside, though....

So, one day, my mother decides she's going to Read One of My Books in order to Understand Science Fiction and The Kinds of Things I Read.  You can see where this is headed.  Of all the books on my shelf from Piers Anthony to F.M. Busby to Robert Heinlein to Margaret Weis, she chose John Varley's Demon.

I thought I was going to die of embarrassment.  To this day I don't know if she actually finished it, but she never mentioned it if she did.  She did give me a few looks as she was reading it in the living room.

I guess it could have been worse. She could have picked up Jack Chalker's Flux and Anchor series.

[SFEley]

So, one day, my mother decides she's going to Read One of My Books in order to Understand Science Fiction and The Kinds of Things I Read.  You can see where this is headed.  Of all the books on my shelf from Piers Anthony to F.M. Busby to Robert Heinlein to Margaret Weis, she chose John Varley's Demon.

Heh.  Yes, that's the trilogy I was thinking of in particular.  There's also some pretty racy stuff in Steel Beach and The Golden Globe, but I didn't read those until much later.  I can't even remember if they were published when I was in high school.

[stePH]

So, one day, my mother decides she's going to Read One of My Books in order to Understand Science Fiction and The Kinds of Things I Read.  You can see where this is headed.  Of all the books on my shelf from Piers Anthony to F.M. Busby to Robert Heinlein to Margaret Weis, she chose John Varley's Demon.

Yikes.  It's a mistake to start with the third book in a trilogy.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

So, one day, my mother decides she's going to Read One of My Books in order to Understand Science Fiction and The Kinds of Things I Read.  You can see where this is headed.  Of all the books on my shelf from Piers Anthony to F.M. Busby to Robert Heinlein to Margaret Weis, she chose John Varley's Demon.

Ah, mothers... mine knew I was into science fiction (all the Star Trek, the Asimov books, etc.) and knew I wasn't going to church any more.  She wanted to get me "back on track" and wanted to show me that she was "with it"... so sent me the "Left Behind" series.  I did try to read them... and got through the first chapter before demonstrating the aerodynamics of a trade paperback to my roommate.

I had to tell my mother I found them just a touch preachy. 

[Darwinist]

Ah, mothers... mine knew I was into science fiction (all the Star Trek, the Asimov books, etc.) and knew I wasn't going to church any more.  She wanted to get me "back on track" and wanted to show me that she was "with it"... so sent me the "Left Behind" series.  I did try to read them... and got through the first chapter before demonstrating the aerodynamics of a trade paperback to my roommate.

I had to tell my mother I found them just a touch preachy. 

Ah yes........

Into sci-fi....check
Not going to church anymore.......check
(Step) mom recommending "Left Behind" series.....check

I have not tried to read them yet, though.  I have too much good sci-fi sitting on my shelf to even consider that load.   

[Kaa]

that load.   

I think the term you're looking for is "steaming pile."

[Swamp]

Ah, mothers... mine knew I was into science fiction (all the Star Trek, the Asimov books, etc.) and knew I wasn't going to church any more.  She wanted to get me "back on track" and wanted to show me that she was "with it"... so sent me the "Left Behind" series.  I did try to read them... and got through the first chapter before demonstrating the aerodynamics of a trade paperback to my roommate.

I had to tell my mother I found them just a touch preachy. 

Nobody has ever tried to force these books on me, probably because I still go to church.  However, I have
never had a desire to read the Left Behind series.  It just seemed like such a pretentious premise.  You say " a touch preachy" as an intended understatement; I would add self righteous and insulting.  And this is coming from a believer, at least in God and Jesus Christ (not necesarily the perspective of the Left Behind books or their ilk).  I also wasn't interested in more frivilous speculation about the Book of Revelations, especially from a fictional novel with action hereos.

I'm glad to hear my insticts were correct.  I haven't read a page of it, nor do I intend to.  Experiences like yours only prove I was right.

[Holden]

Flaming Marshmallow was a fun story. The reading was great and the ending was perfect.

I haven't read any of the Left Behind series, but I've seen the movies. Fiction based loosely on the Bible and marketed towards Christians can be dangerous. I've met more than one Christian who read/saw Left Behind and based part of their theology on the story. This is scary to me, because the work isn't Biblically accurate nor does it even claim to be. It's a work of fiction. The movies were okay, probably not worth watching again, but definitely should not be used as a means of evangelism.

[Swamp]

Getting back on topic of the story:

I thought I had commented on it.  I enjoyed the story.  I had heard of the Death Machine anthology contest and thought about submitting something, but never did.  I think Flaming Marshmallows is a good example of what they were looking for.  Basically as I remember it, they wanted stories showing how such a machine would effect different types of culture.  This author chose the culture of an American high school, and did a good job of capturing that perspective, albeit a bit stereotypical.  

As many other fathers have mentioned, I related to the father's experience even though my kids are not in high school yet.

[Swamp]

I've met more than one Christian who read/saw Left Behind and based part of their theology on the story. This is scary to me...

...definitely should not be used as a means of evangelism.

Amen

[DKT]

Ah, mothers... mine knew I was into science fiction (all the Star Trek, the Asimov books, etc.) and knew I wasn't going to church any more.  She wanted to get me "back on track" and wanted to show me that she was "with it"... so sent me the "Left Behind" series.  I did try to read them... and got through the first chapter before demonstrating the aerodynamics of a trade paperback to my roommate.

I had to tell my mother I found them just a touch preachy. 

Nobody has ever tried to force these books on me, probably because I still go to church.  However, I have
never had a desire to read the Left Behind series.  It just seemed like such a pretentious premise.  You say " a touch preachy" as an intended understatement; I would add self righteous and insulting.  And this is coming from a believer, at least in God and Jesus Christ (not necesarily the perspective of the Left Behind books or their ilk).  I also wasn't interested in more frivilous speculation about the Book of Revelations, especially from a fictional novel with action hereos.

I'm glad to hear my insticts were correct.  I haven't read a page of it, nor do I intend to.  Experiences like yours only prove I was right.

I haven't been coerced into reading them for much the same reason.  I do feel slightly bad about this because I would like to at one point read the first one, just so I can point out to people who recommend it to me what a piece of shit it is.  Sometimes I'm masochistic.

Fiction by Christian publishers just usually leaves me pretty frustrated, though.  I read a couple of Frank Peretti's books and was floored by how bad one was, yet how much people LOVED him.  Christian fiction by, say Madeleine L'Engle...well, my love knows no bounds.

I haven't read any of the Left Behind series, but I've seen the movies. Fiction based loosely on the Bible and marketed towards Christians can be dangerous. I've met more than one Christian who read/saw Left Behind and based part of their theology on the story. This is scary to me, because the work isn't Biblically accurate nor does it even claim to be. It's a work of fiction. The movies were okay, probably not worth watching again, but definitely should not be used as a means of evangelism.

Yep.  It was terrifying at the church I used to attend how much of an influence they had on people, not as fiction, but as something they thought was TRUE.

I realize I'm dangerously off topic, so I'd just like to say I'm glad the death was intended to be so ambiguous.  That's what really made the story for me, the concept of a father excited about how his daughter was going to die was so quirky and somehow sweet due to the futuristic, ambiguous sounding death.  If it was something more tangible, it would've been a much creepier story (and wouldn't have worked as well for me).   

[Russell Nash]

OK, the Left Behind series was getting a bit of traction here, so I started a new thread about religion based SF.  I didn't split off any of the posts from here, but if you want to reply to any of those comments, please do it in the new thread.