EP490: Flowers for Algernon

[Moritz]

Took me a while to listen to it, since I was still catching up on lots of older EP episodes -
I first read the novel 7 years ago at the local English book club (I'm in Germany) and thought it was amazing. I am glad that EP had the original short story, with such an excellent read.

I think we are still waiting for the glorious EP 500, but this one would have been worth to be number 500, too!

[Maxilu]

I've known this story since High School. I expected to cry.

I didn't expect I was going to cry that much.  Well done with the narration, Dave.

[TheVoicesOfBrian]

While I've been familiar with the tropes in the story, I'd never actually read Flowers for Algernon. Thanks EP for making me finally do it.

Damn that was tough to go through. As the dad of a aspergian kid and someone who does theater with folks with special needs, the first part was really powerful. Then the latter half hit the side of me that's watched family members succumb to Alzheimers.

So many emotions wrapped up in this one. Brilliant story and an excellent reading by Dave.

[CryptoMe]

I agree that the reading was awesome!

But I have never been a fan of this story. I first read the novel version a few years back because (IIRC) several people on this forum were raving about it in some thread or other. I wasn't impressed then, and I am not particulary impressed with the short story version now. The reason I feel this way is because the story is just all negative harshness with no hope given at any point. And, I really don't like the person Charlie becomes. For those who said he doesn't change, I disagree. In his most brilliant phase, he is quite a self-absorbed jerk. And I didn't like the implications that becoming smart makes you incapable of communicating your ideas to others. That's just a fallicy. IMHO, if you can't explain something to a non-specialist audience, then you don't understand it well enough yourself. 

Sorry to have such a different opinion from the rest.

[matweller]

I agree that the reading was awesome!

But I have never been a fan of this story. I first read the novel version a few years back because (IIRC) several people on this forum were raving about it in some thread or other. I wasn't impressed then, and I am not particulary impressed with the short story version now. The reason I feel this way is because the story is just all negative harshness with no hope given at any point. And, I really don't like the person Charlie becomes. For those who said he doesn't change, I disagree. In his most brilliant phase, he is quite a self-absorbed jerk. And I didn't like the implications that becoming smart makes you incapable of communicating your ideas to others. That's just a fallicy. IMHO, if you can't explain something to a non-specialist audience, then you don't understand it well enough yourself. 

Sorry to have such a different opinion from the rest.

It may be a difference of your demeanor versus mine, or that I'm older and come from a different time, but I've always thought this story was full of hopeful and cautionary messages for and on behalf of Charlie and everyone else in the story.

• The fact that the "smartening" process has been created suggests hope for a population that has never had it.
• The idea that the self important doctors in the story had their noses rubbed in the unintended consequences of their meddling is  a great theme that doesn't get taught enough these days.
• The concept that intelligence (and by extension, other forms of "superiority" e.g. wealth, power, etc) is not directly proportional to happiness is a hopeful and important message to the common man audience if not the poor little rich kids.
• The way he regresses to blissful ignorance is hopeful, but the fact that it makes him arguably worse than when he started is heartbreaking and therefore a caution to anybody who thinks they're advancing knowledge or technology or quality of life for the general population, that they may be buying that knowledge on credit at somebody/everybody else's expense -- a lesson that most of the current world leaders seem to need very badly.
• The fact that it all ends the way it does is so much more true to life than a trite, happily ended, Disney product.

I could probably spend another 2 hours on this list, but I won't. The short version is that I've always treasured this story for it's many-layered messages and for how even the cautionary/negative themes have a positive absolute value as a result just because they were said

[CryptoMe]

I agree that the reading was awesome!

But I have never been a fan of this story. I first read the novel version a few years back because (IIRC) several people on this forum were raving about it in some thread or other. I wasn't impressed then, and I am not particulary impressed with the short story version now. The reason I feel this way is because the story is just all negative harshness with no hope given at any point. And, I really don't like the person Charlie becomes. For those who said he doesn't change, I disagree. In his most brilliant phase, he is quite a self-absorbed jerk. And I didn't like the implications that becoming smart makes you incapable of communicating your ideas to others. That's just a fallicy. IMHO, if you can't explain something to a non-specialist audience, then you don't understand it well enough yourself. 

Sorry to have such a different opinion from the rest.

It may be a difference of your demeanor versus mine, or that I'm older and come from a different time, but I've always thought this story was full of hopeful and cautionary messages for and on behalf of Charlie and everyone else in the story.

• The fact that the "smartening" process has been created suggests hope for a population that has never had it.
• The idea that the self important doctors in the story had their noses rubbed in the unintended consequences of their meddling is  a great theme that doesn't get taught enough these days.
• The concept that intelligence (and by extension, other forms of "superiority" e.g. wealth, power, etc) is not directly proportional to happiness is a hopeful and important message to the common man audience if not the poor little rich kids.
• The way he regresses to blissful ignorance is hopeful, but the fact that it makes him arguably worse than when he started is heartbreaking and therefore a caution to anybody who thinks they're advancing knowledge or technology or quality of life for the general population, that they may be buying that knowledge on credit at somebody/everybody else's expense -- a lesson that most of the current world leaders seem to need very badly.
• The fact that it all ends the way it does is so much more true to life than a trite, happily ended, Disney product.

I could probably spend another 2 hours on this list, but I won't. The short version is that I've always treasured this story for it's many-layered messages and for how even the cautionary/negative themes have a positive absolute value as a result just because they were said

Interesting take, but I think we will have to agree to disagree.

• smartening=hope is not consistent with your third point that intelligence is not directly proportional to happiness.
• I don't think the doctors felt their noses were rubbed in anything. Charlie was just another run of their experiment. Learn what you can and move on to the next run.
• I would hope that <insert status of choice here> is unrelated to happiness is so self-evident that it doesn't need a story to point it out.
• The lesson that there is always a price even if you aren't the one paying it should also be very obvious.
• I don't agree that the way things transpired in the story (not just the ending) were any more realistic that a trite Disney product.

My biggest problem with this story is that it presents all of these obvious "truths" as if it were revealing something that we didn't already know, but makes no effort in proposing possible solutions or ways of dealing with them. In my opinion, that makes this story trite and simplistic, like a young kid so full of themselves because they have discovered something they think is really big, but everyone else already knows.

But that's just me. Like I said. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

[TheArchivist]

Pardon me for butting in but...

Interesting take, but I think we will have to agree to disagree.

• smartening=hope is not consistent with your third point that intelligence is not directly proportional to happiness.

I don't think so. The hope implied, if matweller is saying what I think he is, is more general than mere happiness. The achievement of a temporary "cure" gives hope that a more stable (if less extreme) version may be achievable. It may not result in happiness for the intellectually challenged but it should allow them to function / fit in more completely in an ever-more-technological society. In doing so, it might also remove them from being targets of abuse, which would be a good thing for wider society regardless of whether the victims are even aware of the abuse. It's a hope for the fictional society, rather than our real lives, but at the time it was written the general feeling was that such things would become reality as science and technology advanced.

• I would hope that <insert status of choice here> is unrelated to happiness is so self-evident that it doesn't need a story to point it out.

Really? Well, I suppose you do say you'd "hope", not "expect", but it seems to me that this is very far from self-evident to a LOT of people!

• The lesson that there is always a price even if you aren't the one paying it should also be very obvious.

Again, look around and see how often "should be" resolves to "is".

• I don't agree that the way things transpired in the story (not just the ending) were any more realistic that a trite Disney product.

Perhaps your life experience really is very different from mine, then.

My biggest problem with this story is that it presents all of these obvious "truths" as if it were revealing something that we didn't already know, but makes no effort in proposing possible solutions or ways of dealing with them. In my opinion, that makes this story trite and simplistic, like a young kid so full of themselves because they have discovered something they think is really big, but everyone else already knows.

Sir, if you require all your stories to provide viable solutions to the human condition then I fear you will dislike most of the field! 

But that's just me. Like I said. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

And I trust you'll allow me to disagree, too

[CryptoMe]

Pardon me for butting in but...

My biggest problem with this story is that it presents all of these obvious "truths" as if it were revealing something that we didn't already know, but makes no effort in proposing possible solutions or ways of dealing with them. In my opinion, that makes this story trite and simplistic, like a young kid so full of themselves because they have discovered something they think is really big, but everyone else already knows.

Sir, if you require all your stories to provide viable solutions to the human condition then I fear you will dislike most of the field! 

LOL! I am occassionally unsatisfied with fiction for this reason, but not as much as you would think. See, I don't really expect stories to provide viable solutions to the human condition, it's just that I expect more than "people suck". The last story I felt this way about was Lord of the Flies; it also presents what I consider obvious truths without adding anything new to the discussion, in my opinion. But you, and anyone else, is most certainly free to disagree.