Author Topic: EP146: Edward Bear and the Very Long Walk  (Read 57294 times)

DKT

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Reply #50 on: February 26, 2008, 10:53:22 PM
Quote from: eytanz
Quote

I'm not sure why the author of this story choose to use Pooh as his main character - there could be a variety of reasons, some better than others.

     I think, and this is my humble opinion, that many authors, myself included, look for short cuts.

That's certainly one of the possibilities, but I'm inclined to be more generous to the author and think that there was more to it than that.

Just for my own curiosity what do you think the author might have been trying to do.  Maybe right their own version of the pooh story?  If they where it didn't really work as you and other have pointed out.  That is why I said it was a short cut.  I have a ready-made  character that everyone already knows the history of, check now move on to the story.

It's not really aimed at me, I still think he thought it was just a fun idea, to have a story about Winnie the Pooh in space.  And who knows?  He might've been feeling a bit nostalgic at the time, too. 

The ending of this story, while touching, doesn't come anywhere near. Maybe it's just me, but self-sacrifice isn't nearly as universal or tragic as the inevitability of leaving one's childhood behind.

also maybe the self-sacrifice is overused as a literary or film plot?
just a thought

Maybe, but for me it's not so much whether or not it's overdone, as much as whether or not it's done/executed well.  However, there seems to be some debate on that subject :) 


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Reply #51 on: February 26, 2008, 11:34:26 PM
Just for my own curiosity what do you think the author might have been trying to do.  Maybe right their own version of the pooh story?  If they where it didn't really work as you and other have pointed out.  That is why I said it was a short cut.  I have a ready-made  character that everyone already knows the history of, check now move on to the story.

I think the author had an affinity for Winnie-the-Pooh, as shown in the Pooh references down to the imitation of writing style.  I think it was meant as an homage to a loved character.  Of course I have no way of knowing for sure.  Obviously, it didn't work for everyone, but it did for me.

The natives critters also bugged me.  Guh, talk about noble savage squared.

I picked up on the noble savage schtick, but overlooked it because I liked to rest of the story.

I also had a critical failure of funny, which I think this story needed if it was going to be about Pooh.

I agree that there was a lack of Pooh-associated humor with the story, though the circumstances were grim.  I think the parrot people were supposed to be the comic relief, and succeed mildly at first (due to Steve's production), but soon fell flat.

As far as I am concerned, the ending of "The House at Pooh Corner" was, and still is, one of the most touching and poignent endings in all literature. It is as bittersweet and tragic as the end of childhood always is.

The ending of this story, while touching, doesn't come anywhere near. Maybe it's just me, but self-sacrifice isn't nearly as universal or tragic as the inevitability of leaving one's childhood behind.

I cannot argue with you on that.  You speak the truth.  Nothing has come close to giving me the feelings I get at the end of the book (even more so now as an adult).  However, I still enjoyed this story, which I view as a tribute rather than an attempt to replace the original.

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Reply #52 on: February 26, 2008, 11:36:47 PM
Maybe, but for me it's not so much whether or not it's overdone, as much as whether or not it's done/executed well.  However, there seems to be some debate on that subject :) 

that was my intent w/ the comment it is so over used that in order for it to work it must be well done/ executed
sorry for the lack of clarity on my part

also when I say I did not like it I am not going after the narration it can only be as good as the story that is being narrated
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Reply #53 on: February 27, 2008, 12:26:40 AM
Disclaimer: I feel no particular affinity for Winnie the Pooh.

I enjoyed listening to the story, but it could have been better.  I'm also surprised at what a positive response it got.  Bravery was mentioned several times, but Edward doesn't seem particularly brave or cowardly.  He is too ignorant of the danger to be truly brave.  He is also too ignorant to be making a real sacrifice.   Frodo and Sam at least had some inkling they wouldn't be coming home, and at one point they knew it without a doubt.  Edward doesn't seem to struggle with this.  He doesn't seem to struggle with anything.  He didn't even struggle with leaving the nursery even though he said he would.  Maybe that is Pooh, but it's not dramatic tension.

The twist on this hero's journey is largely cosmetic.  It would have been more interesting if Edward's nature as a robot toy bear gave him unique limitations or abilities.   I'm surprised that he was even able to attack anything.  Why would you design a children's toy that is remotely capable of violence?  Why would a robot need a sub-brain to comfort it as it dies?  Some of you probably think I am missing the point, but as a science fiction fan, these things break my suspension of disbelief, and they frustrate me because a more interesting story would have resulted in their consideration.  OK, the monsters have your wagon.  How do you get it back without attacking them?

This came across as more ranty than I intended.  I DID enjoyed listening to the story, and I cared what happened.  But there was a much better story that could have come from this idea.





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Reply #54 on: February 27, 2008, 01:21:47 PM
Great story, and very moving.  Certainly one of my favorite EP's to date.
I should say that I didn't really get any exposure to "children's lit" as a child, so I have no particular attachment to Milne's work.  For me, this story stands on it's own.
I'm also a little shocked at the negative reactions to this story.  Wow, I thought I was cynical.



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Reply #55 on: February 27, 2008, 02:30:00 PM
Great story, and very moving.  Certainly one of my favorite EP's to date.
I should say that I didn't really get any exposure to "children's lit" as a child, so I have no particular attachment to Milne's work.  For me, this story stands on it's own.
I'm also a little shocked at the negative reactions to this story.  Wow, I thought I was cynical.


I am also shocked at all the negative reactions.  I really, really liked this one. But I tend to like most of the EP stories, and not have much in the way of strong negative feelings towards them.  (Exceptions being Acepheous Dreams and that steampunk story from last fall).  After reading some of the commentary about this episode I feel like a bit of a simpleton.  While listening I just don't nitpick that much.  I think a lot of the people that liked it said so briefly while those with negative feelings felt the need to write more to explain their points of view. 

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Reply #56 on: February 27, 2008, 04:19:08 PM
I am also shocked at all the negative reactions.  I really, really liked this one. But I tend to like most of the EP stories, and not have much in the way of strong negative feelings towards them.  (Exceptions being Acepheous Dreams and that steampunk story from last fall).  After reading some of the commentary about this episode I feel like a bit of a simpleton.  While listening I just don't nitpick that much.  I think a lot of the people that liked it said so briefly while those with negative feelings felt the need to write more to explain their points of view. 

For the record, I can comment just as volubly on pieces I have loved as on pieces I disdain.  Often someone beats me to the punch on the specific parts I love (*cough* eytanz *cough*), however, and I try not to post too much in the 'me too' vein, so that may affect the balance of my posts.   

I also don't post in an attempt to throwdown intellectually, or make anyone feel like a simpleton.  OTOH, I refuse to apologize for the breadth of my vocabulary, or my expressions of critical thought.  Been there, done that, quite finished, thank you.  I post primarily because I'm interested, either in the stories themselves or in the reactions to them (and I include my own reaction to stories in the set of things I find interesting).

I have a strong lit crit background, and analyzing stories is part of the fun of it for me.  I can enjoy stories at face value, without analysis, sure, but I get deeper enjoyment out of things I can take apart and think about, and I get the deepest enjoyment out of stories that engage me *both* intellectually and emotionally.  I am not best pleased by fiction that requires turning my brain off to enjoy it.  The desire to deconstruct and examine the parts is a basic geek drive, and I'm surprised to find it scorned as 'nitpicking' and/or 'missing the point' (in another thread).

Your statement that you don't nitpick while listening is valid for most listeners, I believe.  I see fewer flaws in stories that engage me than in ones that fail to suck me in.  Debra Doyle, at the Viable Paradise workshop, calls this phenomenon "people don't count rivets on a moving train".  In stories that I don't like, often the train just isn't moving fast enough, and I start counting rivets, and noticing they're not quite right.  This is still, as far as I'm concerned, an error on the author's part.  They have, or should have, control of the pacing of the story.

That said, I don't think slow train motion was the problem for me in this story.  As I believe I stated upthread, the story is fine from a technical execution standpoint (unlike Friction, which I think had logical holes big enough to swallow small suns, which I perhaps wouldn't have noticed had things moved along at a better pace).  After thinking (and posting) about it, I think it's of a type of story that just doesn't connect with me.  When I tried to think of other stories of its type, I came up with Eugie Foster's Penguin Balloon story (what was it called?), which I also hated but at the time I heard it, I felt that was maybe because of the baby-voiced reading it got (though I usually like Mur's readings).  And it's not that I hate Eugie's stuff, either, because her Pseudopod story "Oranges, Lemons and Thou Beside Me" is in my top three favorite Pseudopod's EVER.  So, in essence, my 'nitpicking' is more like my exploration, out loud and in public, of elements in storytelling that work (or don't) for me.  Apparently, toys are a hard sell for me, and the author will have to work hard against my prejudices to make me like a story intended for adults with a toy as protagonist (I can think of plenty of examples I like in children's lit.).  Now I know more about what I like in stories, and that should help me find more stuff I like and avoid stuff that I don't like.  To me this is a good thing, achieved by my thinking critically about why I didn't like this particular story. 

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Reply #57 on: February 27, 2008, 04:20:43 PM
Your statement that you don't nitpick while listening is valid for most listeners, I believe.  I see fewer flaws in stories that engage me than in ones that fail to suck me in.  Debra Doyle, at the Viable Paradise workshop, calls this phenomenon "people don't count rivets on a moving train".  In stories that I don't like, often the train just isn't moving fast enough, and I start counting rivets, and noticing they're not quite right.  This is still, as far as I'm concerned, an error on the author's part.  They have, or should have, control of the pacing of the story.

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eytanz

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Reply #58 on: February 27, 2008, 04:36:45 PM
I am also shocked at all the negative reactions.  I really, really liked this one. But I tend to like most of the EP stories, and not have much in the way of strong negative feelings towards them.  (Exceptions being Acepheous Dreams and that steampunk story from last fall).  After reading some of the commentary about this episode I feel like a bit of a simpleton.  While listening I just don't nitpick that much.  I think a lot of the people that liked it said so briefly while those with negative feelings felt the need to write more to explain their points of view. 

I'm a natural-born (or maybe bred, lets not get into nature vs. nurture here) nitpicker. It's what comes naturally to me, and, as an academic, it's what I've been trained to do for a living. Just like Anarkey, for me analyzing the stories is part of the fun.

What I find interesting is the impression that the nitpicks give. I didn't have a negative reaction to the story. I had a positive reaction to one. Just not a purely positive one. And, when writing about it, I chose to write about the less positive parts, because I think those are more interesting. That's not always the case - I just requested a thread for "The Dream Factory" specifically so I can highlight the one overwhelmingly positive aspect in an otherwise negative response to a story - but it often is. And in this case, I think it was important to me to highlight the problems I've had with the story's premise because much of the prior response was overwhlemingly positive (Anarkey's post above mine being the exception). It's a lot more interesting to try to engage in a discussion with people I disagree with than to discuss things with people I agree with, at least until the point where the discussion shifts into an argument.

So, my post may have focused on the negative aspects, which might give the impression I had a negative opinion. That is, however, not the case.

Beyond that, the last thing I want to do is make anyone feel like a simpleton. I enjoy sharing an opinion, and I enjoy discussing it. But there is nothing about either of those facts that makes my opinions more valid or important than the opinions of people who are not as detailed or involved in writing about them.  I'm nitpicky and verbose, that's my style; but my opinions are still nothing more and nothing less than opinions, and no better or worse than those of people with less nitpicky or less verbose writing styles.



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Reply #59 on: February 27, 2008, 05:04:19 PM
I'm also a little shocked at the negative reactions to this story.  Wow, I thought I was cynical.

I am also shocked at all the negative reactions.  I really, really liked this one.

I'm glad you both enjoyed the story.  So did I.  However, I think these comments fall under the category of critiquing the critique, which Steve has warned against multiple times.  It's not a big deal, but if you want someone to see your opinion as valid, why not extend that same courtesy to others, especially regarding literature.

If I learned anything from the flash contest last year, it is that a given story will always be viewed differently by its audience.  And that's a good thing.  We learn from each other.  Why are you shocked that someone has a different opinion that you do?  Even if you really, really, really, really like something, that doesn't gaurantee eveyone else will.  I loved this story, as did many others.  Anarkey strongly disliked it; eytanz highlighted negative points about it.  So?   I have learned from their explanations as to why they disliked it, and I took a second look at why I liked it so much.  The bottom line is that I still love the story, but understand where it fell short for them.  That is what a forum is for.  I have learned it is best to simply share my opinions and observations and let everyone else do the same.

Then again, here I am critiquing the critique of the critique.  Now I have probably started a sideline discussion.  I just wanted to share my thoughts on what I have learned in order to enjoy these forums for myself. 

Back to comments about Edward...
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 05:09:27 PM by kmmrlatham »

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gelee

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Reply #60 on: February 27, 2008, 05:47:38 PM
I wouldn't suggest anyone not think about a story, and my intent is not to critique the criticism.  I would also not suggest that anyone abridge their vocabulary.  I was simply surprised at the reactions to the story.  I disagree with some of the points made, but didn't intend to make a big deal about it.  I was a little late in listening to this story, and it seemed to me most of the important points had already been made.
I don't think I need to turn my brain off to enjoy this story.  I, too, lean toward the analytical, but I arrive at different conclusions about this story.  I think Pooh/Edward makes an excellent "everyman" protagonist.  The story nicely illustrates the idea that even the lowly are capable of heroism when called upon.
Using an established group of fictional characters is the same sort of short-hand employed when using "stereotypical" characters, such as the nameless prostitute from an earlier EP.  The author is saved the time and trouble of building this character out of whole cloth.  That may be cardinal sin in a novel, but the short story format allows for this sort of thing from time to time.
I also don't think that the "nobel savage" tag doesn't fit the Parrot-ishes (did we ever agree on a proper spelling for them?).  Part of the old "nobel savage" trope is the portrayal of primitives as living in a somehow ideal state, at the very least in harmony with his natural surroundings.  I don't think the author let us see enough of the Pariteches to make a determination about their "nobility".  I think the fact that their offspring were about to be eaten by giant hairy hummocks argues against the idea that they were living in harmony with their environment.  Perhaps they were terrified of the bear, and simply pointed out the location of his wagon in the hopes that this strange being from outer space would kill the wagon thieves, thereby saving their young incidentally?



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Reply #61 on: February 27, 2008, 06:59:55 PM
I fall into the "loved it" camp.  Unfortunately, not heeding Steve's warning, I decided to listen to it at work during lunch.

Beeg. Mistake.

It was a very touching story told exceptionally well by Steve.  I could tell from his voice that he was very moved by the story, and that went a long way towards my own...moved...ness.

I enjoyed the Disnified movies of Pooh.  And so the only thing that would have made this story better for me would be if--somehow--Sterling Holloway could have read it.

First Resnick and now this...Steve, what happened to "fun"? :) 

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Reply #62 on: February 27, 2008, 07:46:47 PM
I've been listening to EP since last October and this is the first story I turned off half way through, I didnt think it was particularly bad, it just didnt appeal to me.

I couldnt identify with the main character who simply did things because he was told too and wasnt really sure why. It was a terribly bleak story with some excellent oppitunities for dark humour which were missed.



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Reply #63 on: February 27, 2008, 07:48:51 PM
I couldnt identify with the main character who simply did things because he was told too and wasnt really sure why.

Hmm. This sounds like every day at work.

YMMV. :)

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Reply #64 on: February 27, 2008, 10:24:50 PM
I couldnt identify with the main character who simply did things because he was told too and wasnt really sure why.

Hmm. This sounds like every day at work.

YMMV. :)

Yet another reason  why some people might not have liked it.  Too much unquestioning order following.  Too much like work. :)  Not that I felt this way about it.

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Reply #65 on: February 27, 2008, 11:26:24 PM
Yet another reason why some people might not have liked it.  Too much unquestioning order following.

like a child's world.



wakela

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Reply #66 on: February 27, 2008, 11:30:30 PM
I couldnt identify with the main character who simply did things because he was told too and wasnt really sure why.

Hmm. This sounds like every day at work.

YMMV. :)

Yet another reason  why some people might not have liked it.  Too much unquestioning order following.  Too much like work. :)  Not that I felt this way about it.
I didn't have a problem with the order following.  A lot of good can also come out of following orders.  There just didn't seem to be any internal or external struggle with Edward.  I never doubted that he would make it, so when he did there was less emotional impact.

Quote from: gelee
I think the fact that their offspring were about to be eaten by giant hairy hummocks argues against the idea that they were living in harmony with their environment.  Perhaps they were terrified of the bear, and simply pointed out the location of his wagon in the hopes that this strange being from outer space would kill the wagon thieves, thereby saving their young incidentally?
You want cynical?  I was thinking that the Parrotishes took his wagon and shoved it into the monster cave because they didn't want to risk their own necks rescuing the children.   I think they'll give those evil, destructive humans a run for their money. 



CGFxColONeill

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Reply #67 on: February 28, 2008, 02:49:41 AM
wow and I thought I was a cynic lol
I can barely compare with that


sorry for the terrible pun it was to easy not to use it
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 12:16:49 AM by CGFxColONeill »

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Reply #68 on: February 28, 2008, 02:57:12 AM
I'm also a little shocked at the negative reactions to this story.  Wow, I thought I was cynical.

I am also shocked at all the negative reactions.  I really, really liked this one.

I'm glad you both enjoyed the story.  So did I.  However, I think these comments fall under the category of critiquing the critique, which Steve has warned against multiple times. 

[large snip]

Then again, here I am critiquing the critique of the critique.  Now I have probably started a sideline discussion.  I just wanted to share my thoughts on what I have learned in order to enjoy these forums for myself.  [tiny snip]

I disagree.  However, I must admit that my disagreement is entirely based upon my desire to say that I critiqued the critique of the critique of the critique...



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Reply #69 on: February 28, 2008, 03:54:24 AM
While not in my top 10 EPs, this was thought-provoking.

At one point, I thought Edwin Bear was going to be parent/ruler of a colony of test-tube babies.  I also spent quite a bit of time reminded of the teddy bear from the movie A.I.  What emergency programing would we design into Elmo 2500?

I was also reminded of one of my favorite sig files from Slashdot:

"Oh, bother," said Pooh, as he chambered another round.

Thanks, Steve!  And keep up the good work!



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Reply #70 on: February 28, 2008, 01:31:46 PM

...I was waiting for the eagles to show, but they never came.

...I wonder if we could get Norm Sherman to write the song... ;D



I kept waiting to hear Edward's songs... some kind of Cottleston Pie sort of thing...

...but now I am humming Cottleston Pie and hearing Jackson Browne and Don Henley...   ???

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Reply #71 on: February 28, 2008, 09:40:29 PM
I was also reminded of one of my favorite sig files from Slashdot:

"Oh, bother," said Pooh, as he chambered another round.

 :D Now that's funny.

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Reply #72 on: February 29, 2008, 04:07:48 AM
I think I am getting spoiled by the rich production used in Drabblecast, becuase I kept thinking how awesome would this story be with music, effects, and a little wider range of voicing.  No offense intend toward you Steve, you always do a great job and I always appreicated you slight but noticable vocing for each character in strories you read.

But I would love to hear more Norm on EP, but I think he stays pretty busy taking care of his own podcast.  And vise versa if goatkeeper ever reads this board, lets get some Eley on Drabblecast, either as voice talent or a story!  I have not heard a good Steve Eley story in a while. 

It'd be great to have a Steve story at Drabblecast.  The Malcontent is still one of my fav EP stories.



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Reply #73 on: March 01, 2008, 01:17:08 AM
(for that matter, the ship AI moaning about her terrible mistake also set my teeth to the very edge.  I wanted to reach into the story, smack her, then tell her to stop acting so hysterical).

I didn't think of that before, but that's a really good point. Especially since the recap of the events implied that the AI didn't really make a mistake so much as there was a mechanical failure she could not control, which triggered a cascade of unforseeable disasters. Unless the AI also designed the ship, I can't see why she should blame herself. And who programs an AI that will have emotional meltdowns in the first place?

This seemed of a piece with the over-engineering of Edward Bear.  I assumed that the designers of the ship AI had made it excessively protective of its passengers, so that it would look after them properly instead of taking the nice ship it had been given and wandering around the galaxy looking for interesting astrophysical phenomena.  When they all died it had lost its entire reason for being, like a Talkie Toaster with no bread, and it went a bit mad.

The constant sly Pooh references were a bit wearing but I think I must have mentally edited them out while listening.  This is something I have a tendency to do with minor irritants in an otherwise engaging story: I hear the next draft of it with its "obvious" flaws removed.  (This doesn't really help the critting process.)  Obviously the Pooh business didn't annoy me too much or this mental redrafting wouldn't have worked.  I agree that it would have been better with an original bear character, as using Pooh didn't seem to add anything other than the threat of litigation.

There just didn't seem to be any internal or external struggle with Edward.  I never doubted that he would make it, so when he did there was less emotional impact.

The internal struggle was all at the start.  Once he'd accepted the quest he seemed to be propelled onwards by whatever warped moral code his designers had hardwired into him.  I really liked seeing it from Edward's perspective: he kind of knew that he'd taken on a task that was too big for him, but because of his limited understanding only the listener knows just how far out of his depth he is.  This continues at every stage of the journey, where we quickly understand that failure is much the most likely outcome each time.  There can't really be an external struggle when the hero doesn't even understand the obstacle.  It's only through a refusal to quit and blind luck that he makes it -- or, because this is a Quest, Edward prevails because he is Moral, and Pure, and Unwavering.  (Or because he is slightly Dim, which often seems to be favoured in these sorts of stories.)

I never doubted that he would make it either, and that with the odds stacked so heavily against him the success would be wildly implausible.  That was part of the charm.  I liked a Hero who didn't even know what he'd achieved or how he'd achieved it.

Quote from: wakela
You want cynical?  I was thinking that the Parrotishes took his wagon and shoved it into the monster cave because they didn't want to risk their own necks rescuing the children.   I think they'll give those evil, destructive humans a run for their money. 

That was my strong suspicion too.  I wonder if we are being too cynical, or if there's anything in the text to back it.  Not that Edward would have noticed such deviousness (being Moral, Pure, etc).



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Reply #74 on: March 01, 2008, 03:21:37 AM
I enjoyed this story very much. It was well thought out and with a very simple and good-natured hero that is often overlooked in stories and real life. As for Edwards conformitive personality, I thought it was exactly right. What child would enjoy a toy that did not do what the child wanted it to do?
As for the similarities of Edward bear to Pooh bear, I felt that it was used very well. Think how much more would have been added to the story if he were to come up with a completely new set of childhood characters? The intro to "EP145: Instead of a Loving Heart" really explains this well.
Great intro to the story, Definately something that I waould not want my younger daughter to start the story off hearing. Her older sister (older by only 18 months, would have no trouble with it, she is a sci-fi/horror story fan at 8 years of age. :o ) Every child is different and unique in their own ways.