Author Topic: Christian (or any Religion) Based SF: Pros and Cons  (Read 22199 times)

Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #25 on: February 25, 2008, 06:43:02 PM
I haven't read American Gods yet but I'm assuming it has something to do with faith.

In a way... but it's more about the gods themselves.


Just the fact that it deals with "gods" (other than YHWH) would make it decidedly non-Christian by the standards I was raised to meet.  :)

True, but neither Listener nor DDog mentioned Christianity.

Well... DDog kinda did; he mentioned AG amongst a slew of other books he was familiar with that he thought of as having some basis in Christianity.  But your point is taken (I think).  Just because I'm home sick, I shouldn't sit on top of this thread and steer the conversation.  :)

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Reply #26 on: February 26, 2008, 05:29:13 PM
Well... DDog kinda did; he mentioned AG amongst a slew of other books he was familiar with that he thought of as having some basis in Christianity.  But your point is taken (I think).  Just because I'm home sick, I shouldn't sit on top of this thread and steer the conversation.  :)
I guess you have a point, but looking back at my post I notice that I specifically invoked Christianity in the same sentence or line of the books that are related to it. ;) Part of Small Gods takes place in Pratchett's version of Greece and the rest is probably a riff on Christianity but I couldn't remember exactly; I haven't read it in awhile. Pyramids is, who could have guessed!, about Pratchett's version of Egypt.

I'm saving American Gods so I haven't even looked up what it's really about--it's by Neil Gaiman, that's enough for me, heh. By "faith" I definitely didn't mean Christian faith (there's, what, a Mr. Jackal and a Mr. Ibis? That's my Yinepu and Djehuty) or even necessarily religious faith actually--Gaiman likes to write about people's strongly held beliefs in general, faith that is either confirmed or betrayed.

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Windup

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Reply #27 on: February 27, 2008, 03:28:27 AM

Well, here's the really ironic thing about it:  all we ever DID was read the Bible.  Here is a quick breakdown of activities in the average Southern Baptist Convention approved Sunday morning Bible study:
1) Use the scripture to reinforce the danger of disobeying God (pick any Old Testament story for this, and you can't go wrong)
2) Use scriptures to assert the direct authority of Jesus over that of any human being (They love their St. Paul; this exercise is partly intended to undercut any kind of priesthood, and partly to assert personal interpretation as superior)
3) Use the scripture to disect every other religion or denomination, and dismiss it as some kind of cult  (We had an annual, weeklong seminar devoted to this... a "con", if you will)
4) Use the scripture to single out proscribed behaviors and demonstrate how they incur the wrath of God (tolerating homosexuality = rain of fire from heaven; lying = consumed by worms; etc.)
5) Use the scripture to show how following Jesus leads to a euphoric kind of joy, which those poor sinners are missing out on


Your discussion brings up a good point of the best way to read sacred texts, or any text, for that matter.  I'm a strong believer really knowing the details on whatever it is you're talking about.  And reading enough to get the full sense of the text -- not just the occasional snippet which, as you point out, are prone to severe distortion.  Among other things, I'm a Biblical storyteller and have learned some fair-sized chunks of the Old and New Testaments by heart. (Probably just enough to make the "dunce" category in a first-century classroom, where learning by heart was a much bigger deal than it is now.)

However, I also believe that a modern reader cannot run with "the plain sense of the text" because over thousands of years, we've lost so much of the cultural context in which it was written. "Slavery" for example, refers to many different institutions at different times and places -- and almost never the race-based servitude that springs to mind when 21st century Americans think about it.  I like to think that slavery would have had a much shorter life in the West if more people had understood that those verses were dealing with a totally different institution that happened to get the same name.

Anyway, we have to rely on specialists to supply some of that lost context, and specialists, more often than not, have some strongly-held opinions that aren't derived entirely from data. And it's very difficult for a layperson to judge.  I find myself throwing up my hands when one group of well-educated, apparently sincere scholars says that the internal evidence in the Pentatuch points to the Five Books of Moses being written by Moses himself, while another equally large, well-educated and apparently sincere group finds that laughable, on pretty much the same evidence.

[wrenching sound as we move this back somewhat on-topic]

So with religious-based SF, how appropriate is it to need some religious background to appreciate it?  Do you have to be a Jew (or at least know quite a bit about Judiasm) to truly "get" a golem story?  Do you miss a lot in Orson Scott Card's novels if you aren't Mormon?  And does this enhance or detract from the piece as art?



 

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CammoBlammo

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Reply #28 on: February 27, 2008, 10:02:00 AM

So with religious-based SF, how appropriate is it to need some religious background to appreciate it?  Do you have to be a Jew (or at least know quite a bit about Judiasm) to truly "get" a golem story?  Do you miss a lot in Orson Scott Card's novels if you aren't Mormon?  And does this enhance or detract from the piece as art?
 

Excuse me if I sound a little Po-Mo, but we will always read a given text according to our backgrounds and experiences, irrespective of what the author intended.

An example --- I read The Chronicles of Narnia when I was around nine or ten. I loved them, and they got me fairly hooked on the fantasy genre. I became a Christian in my early teens, and eventually read those books again when I was about 15. I had heard that CS Lewis was a Christian, and that little factoid completely transformed my understanding of the books. I was able to reinterpret them in the light of what I had learnt and experienced. In that case, my newfound background in Christianity enhanced the books greatly.

I think TCoN is about a blatant a serious religious work as you'll find in the mainstream, so it may not be the best example. Still, I think understanding something of the author's background can at least engender sympathy for the work or the position the author takes. Having said that I really don't enjoy 'Christian' fiction. It always seems so contrived. I think it's because the author is always omnipotent and omniscient. It's all too easy for the author to take the place of God in a story. Have you ever noticed how God is always on the author's side?

With regard to the rest of your post, Windup, one of my favourite pursuits as an author is to take biblical stories and rewrite them in modern settings. For example, I've rewritten the story of the shepherds at Christmas to be about stockmen in outback Australia. My current (stalled, I'll admit) project is also a Christmas one --- the 'three wise men' are visitors from another planet. Like you, I always liked telling stories, but I like to elaborate a bit too much! Getting the ideas on paper helps me stay a bit more focussed.



Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #29 on: February 27, 2008, 11:46:55 AM
I think TCoN is about a blatant a serious religious work as you'll find in the mainstream, so it may not be the best example. Still, I think understanding something of the author's background can at least engender sympathy for the work or the position the author takes. Having said that I really don't enjoy 'Christian' fiction. It always seems so contrived. I think it's because the author is always omnipotent and omniscient. It's all too easy for the author to take the place of God in a story. Have you ever noticed how God is always on the author's side?

I think that helps pin down the distinction I'm looking for; Narnia is "blatant" in that Lewis unapologetically wrote the characters and situations for the purpose of illustrating points of faith and lessons about his beliefs.  Because the books are also well imagined and the characters are charming, they work on multiple levels.  He had a "message", but left it couched in allegory and subtext, where all good messages belong! 

As opposed to the stuff you would describe as contrived; I have studiously avoided reading anything I could use as an example, though I recall my mother reading series of "Christian romance novels" when I was a kid, and hearing her describe the ridiculous scenarios the authors came up with to prove their point (whatever that might have been).  "They loved each other, but it was a pure love, and not that evil physical kind that those sinful Harlequin books write about!"

But my point in mentioning the Left Behind books was never "these books are bad because they have a Christian message"; rather, it was "these books are poorly written, and insult the intelligence of the readership."  Their popularity tells me something sad about the intelligence of the American readership... something I already knew, but something sad, nonetheless.


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Reply #30 on: February 27, 2008, 04:44:21 PM
TAD kind of beat me to it.  I don't think there's anything inherently bad about Christians writing fiction.  My frustration comes when so many Christians do it so badly.  (Just to make the distinction, I'm talking mostly about Christians who publish their fiction in Christian markets.  It's like they have to hit certain plot-points, and in all the books I've read by Christian publications, there's always a conversion plotpoint.)  I don't think people will mind reading books by Christians if they're good anymore than they will mind going to see the next Chronicles of Narnia movie.  At least, I hope not, because half of the stuff I write does something to do with religion and/or Christianity.  I hope it's good enough that people who believe differently than I do still like it. 


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Reply #31 on: March 01, 2008, 06:37:20 AM
I would my issues with religion-based is basically summed up in OSC's Homecoming series. I really liked the Ender's Game series, but that series was just plain awful. When the primary point of a book becomes to proselytize, other elements suffer.

But there's nothing wrong with religious characters or practice in fiction. Religion is a part of life and there's no reason to think it will disappear from the human experience.

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Reply #32 on: March 03, 2008, 07:18:30 PM
I'm a Christian, and it is frustrating that the Christian market in general seems to not only accept but embrace substandard media (music, videos, movies and books). But, as I'm sure TAD and some others can attest, a lot of "Christians" base their "faith" on guilt: what they think will make God happy or unhappy. But I've come to realize that that is "religion," and that being a Christian is more about having a relationship with God than merely believing in God and having a specific set of rules to live by. But my point is, a lot of Christians will accept what is defined as "Christian literature" etc, because they'll feel guilty for enjoying something more that's not written by Christians or doesn't really touch on the subject of God. It's a sad, complicated thing. You may not even be able to understand if you haven't been there, but I wanted to try to explain it.



Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #33 on: March 04, 2008, 01:35:45 AM
I'm a Christian, and it is frustrating that the Christian market in general seems to not only accept but embrace substandard media (music, videos, movies and books). But, as I'm sure TAD and some others can attest, a lot of "Christians" base their "faith" on guilt: what they think will make God happy or unhappy. But I've come to realize that that is "religion," and that being a Christian is more about having a relationship with God than merely believing in God and having a specific set of rules to live by. But my point is, a lot of Christians will accept what is defined as "Christian literature" etc, because they'll feel guilty for enjoying something more that's not written by Christians or doesn't really touch on the subject of God. It's a sad, complicated thing. You may not even be able to understand if you haven't been there, but I wanted to try to explain it.

Yes, I definitely get that concept; reminds me of a discussion about Christian music on Last.fm I read last week.

The guilt thing is one edge of the sword, though... the other edge is the self-righteous satisfaction that one gets when others reject your clearly superior preferences.  That's not a dig at "people of faith" -- we all do that.  (Don't you feel a little smug knowing how many awesome books you have enjoyed while lesser beings sneer that they're above reading science fiction?)

As for faith vs. "religion", well... I do have a relationship with God.  It's one of those awkward relationships where you got divorced, but keep having to see each other at family gatherings and pretend to like each other.

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Reply #34 on: March 04, 2008, 04:11:56 AM
The guilt thing is one edge of the sword, though... the other edge is the self-righteous satisfaction that one gets when others reject your clearly superior preferences.  That's not a dig at "people of faith" -- we all do that.  (Don't you feel a little smug knowing how many awesome books you have enjoyed while lesser beings sneer that they're above reading science fiction?)

As for faith vs. "religion", well... I do have a relationship with God.  It's one of those awkward relationships where you got divorced, but keep having to see each other at family gatherings and pretend to like each other.
True. I hate the smug self-righteousness more than the guilt-ridden decision making. I'm not sure I follow you completely on the satisfaction/smug statement, though. I think that's a personality difference, though. But I suppose I'm getting off-topic.

So to try to salvage this post onto something on-topic, I'm a writer wanna-be, and I've found it hard to incorporate God into interesting SF, i.e. something that I would like to read. I've got something in the hopper, but I haven't developed it enough to know whether it's really gonna work.



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Reply #35 on: March 04, 2008, 05:55:23 AM
I get what both of you guys are saying.  Guilt is huge, self-righteousness is very annoying.

TAD, have you read the comic book Blankets by Craig Thompson (no relation)?  It's fantastic, possibly one of my favorite books, and it really reminds me of your relationship with God :)  It's bittersweet and very funny.  I highly recommend it. 

I'm going to have to check out the article about Christian music in the morning.  I think there's a parallel that can be drawn with what I've been saying about Christian artists vs. artists on Christian labels.  And I used to listen to a lot of Christian music back in the day when I was in JH and HS.  Heh. 


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Reply #36 on: March 10, 2008, 02:31:34 AM
Hey everybody. Another former Christian here. Grew up evangelical so I'm familiar with that side of the fence. Firefly's Shepard Book is probably my favorite religious Sci Fi character both because he was well written and because he was a rare example of a sincere religious character that anybody could like. On the other hand, while I did enjoy the Narnia books as an early teenager they haven't stood up well for me as I've gotten older. Lewis' style of writing Christian apologetics as allegory is about as subtle as a fragmentation grenade going off in the next room.

I was familiar with Tim LaHaye from before I lost my faith, so I never really saw the point in reading any of the Left Behind stuff. I knew he'd have an agenda to push with the story and from what I've heard I was right. The only people I know who read it were believers and no one who wasn't was telling me what a great story arc it was. The church I grew up in wasn't really big on the whole "Rapture" bit anyway so I didn't even feel any theological curiosity. Generally, I don't care for religious genre fiction, but I do love how religion can be used to provide another layer of detail to an already compelling piece of story telling.

I liked the way Islam was used in When Gravity Fails to flesh out the story by providing cultural context for the characters. One example was when the protagonist, Marid, received upgraded cybernetic enhancement from his employer. The doctor who performed the procedure on him went over what the new equipment would allow him to do. IIRC, one of its new features was that he could metabolize alcohol faster than normal. When the doctor told him this he followed up with a disapproving scowl that the narrator interpreted as communication that, of course, he should never use the feature because a good muslim doesn't drink. There were other examples such as a Koran quoting crime boss, a guy from the neighborhood nicknamed the "Half-Haj" because he'd only made it halfway to Mecca the one time, etc. Details like this really helped bring the book to life for me and have stood out in my mind since I read it 16 years ago.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 05:02:01 AM by bad_andy »



Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #37 on: March 10, 2008, 09:56:49 AM
bad_andy's description of "...Gravity..." reminded me of a short story I read somewhere in which a father and daughter were on haj (I think), and one of the conflicts of the story was that technology existed by which one could have the Quran encoded into the "junk DNA" in one's blood.  I don't remember the details, but I remember the daughter being concerned that if the practice caught on, it would provide an easy test for identifying Muslims by DNA.  I think there was a plot thread suggesting that people believed having the Quran in their blood would have some kind of healing effect, though, and  of course it was being marketed as THE way to show one's devotion.

I'm pretty sure it's in one of my "Year's Best SF" collections, but if anyone recognizes it, please help me with the name. ???

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Reply #38 on: March 11, 2008, 01:06:19 AM
'm going to have to check out the article about Christian music in the morning.  I think there's a parallel that can be drawn with what I've been saying about Christian artists vs. artists on Christian labels.  And I used to listen to a lot of Christian music back in the day when I was in JH and HS.  Heh. 
From what Christian music I've heard, even including the recent solo work of Neal Morse (formerly the composer, writer and lead singer for Spock's Beard, a band I'm very fond of), I'm inclined to agree with Jeremy "Toastyfrog" Parish's statement*:

"There's a reason the Christian music section exists in the record store.  Namely, to help those with good taste avoid it like the plague."


*from his essay about Kansas, and Kerry Livgren's move to turn the group into a Christian band before striking out on his own as a solo artist.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 01:08:39 AM by stePH »

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williamjamesw

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Reply #39 on: March 11, 2008, 01:14:21 AM
I remember that story(the one TAD mentioned).  I think it was in Analog or Asimov's about 5 or 6 years ago.

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Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #40 on: March 11, 2008, 11:04:20 AM
I remember that story(the one TAD mentioned).  I think it was in Analog or Asimov's about 5 or 6 years ago.

It is "Written In Blood" by Chris Lawson... it appeared in Year's Best SF 5, edited by David G. Hartwell  (and in Asimov's, according to the intro).

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Reply #41 on: March 18, 2008, 08:39:17 AM

So with religious-based SF, how appropriate is it to need some religious background to appreciate it?  Do you have to be a Jew (or at least know quite a bit about Judiasm) to truly "get" a golem story?  Do you miss a lot in Orson Scott Card's novels if you aren't Mormon?  And does this enhance or detract from the piece as art?
 

as an ex-Mormon...
i loved Ender's Game, and was terribly disappointed when the series went off on a religious bent. i was hoping for more politics and battle school, i guess, not religion. i didn't find a knowledge of the Mormon church to matter in the understanding, though i think it has a more generic christian flavor than anything else.

I didn't get far in the Homecoming series. i found the first chapter or so of the first book to be too entirely like the opening book in the Book of Mormon, complete with names; and i thought it was tacky to rewrite Scripture as fiction. i suppose in this case, a knowledge of the religion behind the book completely detracted from the book.



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Reply #42 on: March 18, 2008, 10:53:08 PM
I definitely found my time with my Fremen ex-girlfriend really opened up Dune for me. Man, she had these deep blue eyes you could practically read by...



Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #43 on: March 21, 2008, 12:38:26 PM
I definitely found my time with my Fremen ex-girlfriend really opened up Dune for me. Man, she had these deep blue eyes you could practically read by...

You don't know what love is until you date a girl with a Gripping Hand.

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Reply #44 on: March 26, 2008, 02:14:09 PM
Flaming Marshmallow was a fun story. The reading was great and the ending was perfect.

I haven't read any of the Left Behind series, but I've seen the movies. Fiction based loosely on the Bible and marketed towards Christians can be dangerous. I've met more than one Christian who read/saw Left Behind and based part of their theology on the story. This is scary to me, because the work isn't Biblically accurate nor does it even claim to be. It's a work of fiction. The movies were okay, probably not worth watching again, but definitely should not be used as a means of evangelism.

Um, no. The books are intended to be literal truth, fiction only in that the events described haven't yet come to pass. The authors intend it to be a future history, as explicitly described in the Bible (by which they mean, as described in the footnotes of a Darby Bible). The fact that they (and many of their readers) believe these books to be good theology is what makes them such a dangerous force.

I reccomend reading Fred Clark's excellent page-by-page dissection. It's far easier to read than the book itself.

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Reply #45 on: March 26, 2008, 02:35:51 PM
Flaming Marshmallow was a fun story. The reading was great and the ending was perfect.

I haven't read any of the Left Behind series, but I've seen the movies. Fiction based loosely on the Bible and marketed towards Christians can be dangerous. I've met more than one Christian who read/saw Left Behind and based part of their theology on the story. This is scary to me, because the work isn't Biblically accurate nor does it even claim to be. It's a work of fiction. The movies were okay, probably not worth watching again, but definitely should not be used as a means of evangelism.

Um, no. The books are intended to be literal truth, fiction only in that the events described haven't yet come to pass. The authors intend it to be a future history, as explicitly described in the Bible (by which they mean, as described in the footnotes of a Darby Bible). The fact that they (and many of their readers) believe these books to be good theology is what makes them such a dangerous force.

I reccomend reading Fred Clark's excellent page-by-page dissection. It's far easier to read than the book itself.
I had originally responded to this post to deny this claim, because I thought I had remembered LaHaye saying otherwise. But in an attempt to find a source for my memory, I discovered that the events that happen in the series are indeed based mostly on LaHaye's interpretation of the events recorded in Revelations (FAQ #3).

edit: emphasis added to that last sentence since LaHaye doesn't allow for that stipulation in his FAQ.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 02:38:36 PM by birdless »