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Author Topic: EP148: Homecoming at the Borderlands Café  (Read 50168 times)

birdless

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Reply #50 on: March 12, 2008, 02:15:28 PM
That has its place but I listen to EP for entertainment.
Oh, good! That's a relief. I'm glad I'm not the only one! After spending a little time as I have here (admittedly, not much at all, yet), I sometimes feel like it would be regarded as banal to simply listen for entertainment's sake. I mean, sure, if we get something out of it that we can take with us, all the better, but my main motivation for listening to EP (and eventually PC) is entertainment. And I agree. I just didn't find this story entertaining. Like I said in an earlier post, it almost seemed divisive rather than unifying, but I think TAD helped turn that around a little.



ElSenorDelFuego

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Reply #51 on: March 12, 2008, 05:45:24 PM
(my mother was once turn down for a loan at a well respected bank for nothing other than being a Mexican immigrant, I can claim this confidently as she had then and still now has perfect credit)

I hate to derail the thread temporarily but I've been in banking for 20 years and comments like this rile me.

Honestly enough i am so glad that pissed you off. In my original write up of my first post i went into greater detail but i cut it down to that comment because it felt to greatly like a tangent to me, but since you brought it up will will expand on the story. At the time my mother was applying for the loan she had perfect credit like i said, she had a good steady job and was married (now divorced) to my stepfather (who is white Btw) who himself has good credit. she went into the bank and the loan officer treated her suspiciously front the start, even outright badly. after being told she could not have a loan my stepfather went into the bank and asked the teller to speak to the bank manager. telling him what happened he wanted to know from him if they should have qualified for the loan. according to the manager they not only qualified for the amount asked for but more. the manger himself was nothing but polite understanding and truthful to him and told him that there was no reason to deny my mother the loan. As far as i know the loan officer made the call herself that mother could not or would not make the loan payment merely based on her race. I guess i should have mentioned that we got the loan from them in the end, and the bank itself did not deny us the loan but the loan officer did. however I missed that when i reedited my post and i apologize for that. However that the part of my post having riled you so tells me that in an incident similar to this one you would make sure that everything was in order when you receive a complaint. people like you are what makes the system stay fair. thanks for your concern and comment though!

Oh BTW, we haven't seen that loan officer since at the bank, and my step dad banks there regularly, and the manager stills say hi when he is there.



CGFxColONeill

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Reply #52 on: March 12, 2008, 06:15:35 PM
Before i say anything, i have to say i LOVE your name/icon

*ahem*

point taken, but I am thinking i gave you the wrong impression with this comment:

To me the best SF is not the far off story about space wars, but the SF that hits uncomfortably close to home. That makes you think more and harder about life than space cadets could in my opinion.

I should say that while I enjoy most of all the SF that hits so close to home. I don't think by any means that it has to be like that (In fact is shouldent, or SF would have no flavor),and I agree with you that EP is mostly about entertainment.  however for me personally even when the SF is so painfully close to home, as this piece was for me, it was still entertaining for me. I also believe SF is a genre of speculation, and that leads to reflection. this in turn means if a story hits us close to home, would that not lead to reflection that much faster? or more intensely? for me at least that is true.

cool glad you like it lol

thanks for clarifying the point
That has its place but I listen to EP for entertainment.
Oh, good! That's a relief. I'm glad I'm not the only one! After spending a little time as I have here (admittedly, not much at all, yet), I sometimes feel like it would be regarded as banal to simply listen for entertainment's sake. I mean, sure, if we get something out of it that we can take with us, all the better, but my main motivation for listening to EP (and eventually PC) is entertainment. And I agree. I just didn't find this story entertaining. Like I said in an earlier post, it almost seemed divisive rather than unifying, but I think TAD helped turn that around a little.


I am also glad I was not the only one that has my motivations in entertainment.  I have taken  some things away from some of the episodes but ya that is not something I look for in entertainment

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DKT

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Reply #53 on: March 12, 2008, 06:18:51 PM
I think the majority of us read/listen for entertainment (primarily).  However, if a story hits both the entertainment factor and is provocative, it's a double bonus.  Whether or not this story did either or both those things still seems to be up for debate :)


Russell Nash

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Reply #54 on: March 12, 2008, 09:07:18 PM
[Moderator attitude]

Man, I'm not around for a little while a the place explodes. 

To the people who came here looking to talk about the story: I'm sorry I'm late splitting this one off.

To those I split off:  Couldn't one of you decide to start your own thread or send me a PM to let me know what was hitting the fan? 

It was a sloppy split, because it came so late.  If the post was mostly a liberal/conservative rant, it got split. Even if it had comments about the story

Anyway if you want to contribute to my headache, go here.  If you want to talk about the story, you're in the right place.  If you want to talk about the banking thing, keep your bank comments seperate from your story comments.  The banking thing is a couple posts away from getting split off too.

[/Moderator attitude]



Darwinist

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Reply #55 on: March 12, 2008, 09:12:42 PM
If you want to talk about the banking thing, keep your bank comments seperate from your story comments.  The banking thing is a couple posts away from getting split off too.

[/Moderator attitude]

The banking thing was handled via personal message.  Case closed. 

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


Thaurismunths

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Reply #56 on: March 12, 2008, 10:25:45 PM
Wow. Great episode Steve!
My thoughts on the story are neither here nor there, but over all I think this was one of the best EPs you've put together if only for the feedback it's generated. Tossing in my own to cents:
It sounds like you're doing something different with the audio, your voice sounds a little distant, and did you change up the computer voice at the beginning? I like the new accent too.

How do you fight a bully that can un-make history?


deflective

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Reply #57 on: March 13, 2008, 02:00:24 AM
the message i took was a relatively heavy handed 'live the change you want to see.' others will take courage from your example, within minutes apparently.

the attempt was respectable but the story took too many shortcuts to really address the issues. a good example is the way it tried to take a neutral stance by pissing everyone off equally. effective, maybe, but if this thread is any indication it also distracts.

i liked the protagonist's voice, seemed plausible for someone conflicted between upbringing and personal opinion but his last actions, were thoughtlessly cruel (if not necessarily out of character). greeting the couple that way then making a controversial announcement; there's no way that his mother doesn't blame them for her sons decision.

as if their life wasn't going to be hard enough now the community has a justification to try to alienate & ostracize.

If the post was mostly a liberal/conservative rant, it got split. Even if it had comments about the story

this is another thread where i would have really appreciated a link to the new thread at the beginning of the original one.
knowing that it's a split thread makes it easier to make sense of cryptic posts and makes sure that i post to the one appropriate for my comment.

is there any way that i can convince you to do this Russell?



Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #58 on: March 13, 2008, 02:09:26 AM
I think the majority of us read/listen for entertainment (primarily).  However, if a story hits both the entertainment factor and is provocative, it's a double bonus.  Whether or not this story did either or both those things still seems to be up for debate :)

Everything I do is for entertainment... unfortunately for those around me, my idea of entertainment is a little like what they think of as work.  For example, diagramming sentences brings me hours of hilarious fun... but I digress.


Sorry to make your job harder, Russell... I, too, took the bulk of it to personal message, so only Mr. Tweedy would have to suffer my questions.  Now only Mr. Tweedy has to see how TRULY sorry I am.  :)

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The Outlaw Kyle

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Reply #59 on: March 13, 2008, 03:15:27 AM
I really liked this story.  I was at first taken aback that it was even on escape pod, and I think it shows some considerable sand for Mr. Eley to present it.  He must have know it was going to rattle some cages, but did it anyway.  Stylistically, I think it was a good middle of the road "what if?" story.  But what really got me, what really cinched it for me, was that the "Union" (Columbia, what have you) was NOT portrayed as bastion of freedom, tolerance, love and rainbows.  The simple fact that so many people on here are shocked, SHOCKED, that anyone thinks "liberals" aren't the higher beings of love/tolerance shows how powerful this story was.  I'm sure many of you "free thinkers" would cheer if it was another story about how closed minded Christians are, and in the end they get shown up for the monsters they are by a gay robot.  But let someone imply that lefties aren't always on the side of right, and you cry foul.  Good SF is the SF that challenges your world view, no matter what that world view is.

In Liberty,
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Myst

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Reply #60 on: March 13, 2008, 06:31:19 AM
I am sorry this EP episode left me flat. I just couldn't suspend my disbelief far enough to picture the setting as "real" it was a caricature of  what people in real life are like. Only the worst of people at that. There was no middle ground everyone was evil, spiteful, and bigoted. In real life people come in all shades and flavors. From the angel to the ape we flit and flutter over the course of our life. The author attempted to show this but failed.



Chodon

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Reply #61 on: March 13, 2008, 11:38:42 AM
This story just didn't work for me.  I understand the author's goal to show no system is perfect, and I think it was a good execution of that theme.  However, to really get into a story I need someone for whom I can cheer.  I didn't find anyone like that in this story.  I didn't feel a connection with any of the characters, and really didn't care what happened with any of them.  The only characters I wanted to cheer for (the couple and the baby) hardly said anything, and when they did it was "liberal" bashing.

The story just left me wishing there was one decent person in the author's world.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.


Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #62 on: March 13, 2008, 12:37:24 PM
I really liked this story.  I was at first taken aback that it was even on escape pod, and I think it shows some considerable sand for Mr. Eley to present it.  He must have know it was going to rattle some cages, but did it anyway.  Stylistically, I think it was a good middle of the road "what if?" story.  But what really got me, what really cinched it for me, was that the "Union" (Columbia, what have you) was NOT portrayed as bastion of freedom, tolerance, love and rainbows.  The simple fact that so many people on here are shocked, SHOCKED, that anyone thinks "liberals" aren't the higher beings of love/tolerance shows how powerful this story was.  I'm sure many of you "free thinkers" would cheer if it was another story about how closed minded Christians are, and in the end they get shown up for the monsters they are by a gay robot.  But let someone imply that lefties aren't always on the side of right, and you cry foul.  Good SF is the SF that challenges your world view, no matter what that world view is.

You'll probably want to take these thoughts over to the other thread.

Moderator:  I think it's enough about the story and peoples' reactions in general to stay here.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 07:38:37 PM by Russell Nash »

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DKT

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Reply #63 on: March 13, 2008, 04:03:20 PM
I really liked this story.  I was at first taken aback that it was even on escape pod, and I think it shows some considerable sand for Mr. Eley to present it.  He must have know it was going to rattle some cages, but did it anyway.  Stylistically, I think it was a good middle of the road "what if?" story.  But what really got me, what really cinched it for me, was that the "Union" (Columbia, what have you) was NOT portrayed as bastion of freedom, tolerance, love and rainbows.  The simple fact that so many people on here are shocked, SHOCKED, that anyone thinks "liberals" aren't the higher beings of love/tolerance shows how powerful this story was.  I'm sure many of you "free thinkers" would cheer if it was another story about how closed minded Christians are, and in the end they get shown up for the monsters they are by a gay robot.  But let someone imply that lefties aren't always on the side of right, and you cry foul.  Good SF is the SF that challenges your world view, no matter what that world view is.

Ah.  So you really enjoy all those stories where "lefties" are portrayed as "free thinkers"?  Because from your statement, that's clearly what would challenge your point of view (which this story, apparently, did not). 

While I agree with you that it was an interesting pick for EP because it wasn't as liberal-friendly (as some of the other more political stories played here are) and because it chose to find faults with both sides, I disagree that people are only crying foul because "the left" was portrayed as worse off than the right.  (Actually, I think that's the most interesting thing about this story, stereotypes aside.)

Also, I don't remember anyone "here" cheering in a story where "Christians are shown up" by gay robots (or straight robots, for that matter). 


Anarkey

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Reply #64 on: March 13, 2008, 05:45:36 PM
Also, I don't remember anyone "here" cheering in a story where "Christians are shown up" by gay robots (or straight robots, for that matter). 

DKT, please write this story, stat.  The one line summary made me smile, the story's sure to make me laugh.

Thanks!

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Russell Nash

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Reply #65 on: March 13, 2008, 07:34:16 PM
But what really got me, what really cinched it for me, was that the "Union" (Columbia, what have you) was NOT portrayed as bastion of freedom, tolerance, love and rainbows.  The simple fact that so many people on here are shocked, SHOCKED, that anyone thinks "liberals" aren't the higher beings of love/tolerance shows how powerful this story was.  I'm sure many of you "free thinkers" would cheer if it was another story about how closed minded Christians are, and in the end they get shown up for the monsters they are by a gay robot.  But let someone imply that lefties aren't always on the side of right, and you cry foul. 


This story never showed us anything about Columbia.  We got the view of backwards and close-minded Wyoming and what the close-minded and backward thought of Columbia.  It was as unbiased as Rush Limbaugh.  Of course the people who have never been to the other side say bad things about it.  Of course the guy who couldn't stay has nothing good to say about it.  He is an unreliable narrator in his own subplot.

This was straight out conservative, christian, rural whatever bashing.  I say this as a liberal, city dwelling atheist.



Russell Nash

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Reply #66 on: March 13, 2008, 07:36:18 PM
Sorry to make your job harder, Russell... I, too, took the bulk of it to personal message, so only Mr. Tweedy would have to suffer my questions.  Now only Mr. Tweedy has to see how TRULY sorry I am.  :)

There was no need to take it private.  Just take it to the proper area.



FNH

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Reply #67 on: March 13, 2008, 08:58:59 PM
This was a great story.  As a Christian it made me a little uncomfortable at first but as the story progressed I started to get a feel for it.

I laughed out loud ( on my bicycle! ) when I realised the story was describing Racist Christians and Facist Liberals, what a combination.

I loved the main characters development.  He seemed uninvolved at first, then beaten down, then angry and was then driven to action as he finally realised where he was going to stand.

A well written and well read story, congrats to all.


High 5

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Reply #68 on: March 14, 2008, 10:28:56 PM
So the story isn't about race at all.

I agree, it was not about race, it was about fear.
No matter if your 'race' is white, black, liberal, christian, asian, gay, jewish, conservative, zoroastran, woman or taxcollector, there will always be another group that is afraid or aggressive towards you.
This story for me was about fear of being different, fear being an outcast and how to deal with that.
And also, to me it was all about the fear that perhaps we ourselves are the racists.
As a matter of fact, I think this story got so much heated debate because we know that we are:

Perhaps some of you have seen or heard this one before, perhaps not:
What would you call a black jewish lesbian woman in a wheelchair who is wearing a burka while playing a piano?
To give you time to think, the answer is written below this line in near invisible beige, to view it, click and drag the pointer over the text.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
She is called "a piano player", what else?
Her race, colour of skin, sexual preference, belief or handicap shouldn't matter to you.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Well, this was a first time for me, posting with special effects.  ;D

Yeah, well..how is your Dutch then eh?


Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #69 on: March 15, 2008, 02:11:23 AM
So the story isn't about race at all.

I agree, it was not about race, it was about fear.
No matter if your 'race' is white, black, liberal, christian, asian, gay, jewish, conservative, zoroastran, woman or taxcollector, there will always be another group that is afraid or aggressive towards you.
This story for me was about fear of being different, fear being an outcast and how to deal with that.
And also, to me it was all about the fear that perhaps we ourselves are the racists.
As a matter of fact, I think this story got so much heated debate because we know that we are:

Perhaps some of you have seen or heard this one before, perhaps not:
What would you call a black jewish lesbian woman in a wheelchair who is wearing a burka while playing a piano?
To give you time to think, the answer is written below this line in near invisible beige, to view it, click and drag the pointer over the text.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
She is called "a piano player", what else?
Her race, colour of skin, sexual preference, belief or handicap shouldn't matter to you.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Well, this was a first time for me, posting with special effects.  ;D

Ha, ha!  That's what I said, too, but Russell apparently spun my remarks about fear into the other thread!  (Only you were much more concise.)

As for the joke, I would have called her a "pianist"... which is funnier when you say it out loud, don't hit the final "t" very hard, and wink like Eric Idle when you say it.

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stePH

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Reply #70 on: March 15, 2008, 04:48:21 PM
What would you call a black jewish lesbian woman in a wheelchair who is wearing a burka while playing a piano?

I don't know ... what's her name?

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bad_andy

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Reply #71 on: March 15, 2008, 07:01:03 PM
What would you call a black jewish lesbian woman in a wheelchair who is wearing a burka while playing a piano?

I don't know ... what's her name?

Ha! That's the best answer to any question I've heard in weeks.  :D



stePH

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Reply #72 on: March 15, 2008, 10:28:56 PM
What would you call a black jewish lesbian woman in a wheelchair who is wearing a burka while playing a piano?

I don't know ... what's her name?

Ha! That's the best answer to any question I've heard in weeks.  :D

I only just realized that my reply could be read as "what's-her-name", when I actually meant it as a question (and by implication, that I would call her by her name if I knew it).

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tpi

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Reply #73 on: March 17, 2008, 01:56:41 PM
I was, however, impressed with the author's willingness to criticize both the ultra-left and the ultra-right and show the intolerance and dogmatism inherent in both sides. 

I am not impressed.
There is NO willingness to criticize both sides. "Ultra-left" is crude straw-man (there are no liberals who take babies out of bible-readers [well, in some cases that might even be better alternative to be brought up in a racist family]), but "ultra-right" is something with attitudes which are anything but rare.

 


Chodon

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Reply #74 on: March 17, 2008, 03:05:35 PM
I was, however, impressed with the author's willingness to criticize both the ultra-left and the ultra-right and show the intolerance and dogmatism inherent in both sides. 
I am not impressed.
There is NO willingness to criticize both sides. "Ultra-left" is crude straw-man (there are no liberals who take babies out of bible-readers [well, in some cases that might even be better alternative to be brought up in a racist family]), but "ultra-right" is something with attitudes which are anything but rare.
Okay, I'm really confused by this comment.  First you say no ultra-left person would take babies, then you say they should.  So if had a government based on your belief you would be the exact government protrayed in the story?  I'm not trying to antagonize here, just clarify.  Racism is useless and ignorant and horrible, but hiding it behind laws doesn't make it go away.  In fact it makes it harder to eliminate.

How can you say the author doesn't criticize both sides?  She paints the "right wingers" as racists and hicks.  She paints the "left wingers" as statists and baby-theives.  Both sides are pressing their beliefs on their society: the "righties" by social norms and the "lefties" by government mandate.  People are still arguing about the author's intent when she clearly described it.  The question needs to be if it was clearly conveyed, which I believe it was.  Both sides were demonized.  That's the reason the story didn't work for me.  I couldn't cheer for anyone.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.