Guilty Secrets--The Have's vs. Have Nots

[Boggled Coriander]

I went through an intense Xanth-loving phase in my early teens.  Haven't gone near the books since.  In their defense, I don't think Piers Anthony ever intended for them to be anything more than fun froth.

Shortly afterwards I graduated to Anthony's "Cluster" series.  Only afterwards did I realize that the stories could be reduced to "Hero travels to new planet.  Hero learns to have sex in local fashion.  Repeat."

[stePH]

I went through an intense Xanth-loving phase in my early teens.  Haven't gone near the books since.  In their defense, I don't think Piers Anthony ever intended for them to be anything more than fun froth.

Shortly afterwards I graduated to Anthony's "Cluster" series.  Only afterwards did I realize that the stories could be reduced to "Hero travels to new planet.  Hero learns to have sex in local fashion.  Repeat."

Clusterf#ck? 

[birdless]

OK, I'll bite.

What's the story on "hate" for fantasy?  I'm not saying you or anyone else should like it.  But, finding the genre silly, or tedious, or boring, or trite I could understand.  But hate? (or I guess it's actually hate!!!)  Did an elf abuse you when you were a child, or what?

I'm also curious as to why you consider Glory Road a "true fantasy story" while Job, The Number of the Beast and The Cat who Walks Through Walls don't fall into that category.  He certainly made an effort to create science-fictional (I hesitate to say "scientific") underpinnings for Glory Road, while he really doesn't even try with the others I mentioned.

It's a completely irrational hatred. There's nothing inherently wrong with fantasy literature, but I can't suspend my disbelief enough to even remotely enjoy it. Sort of like eating asparagus (guilt admission #3), I know it's good for me, I know my wife made it, I know she made hollandaise sauce from scratch, and I know it should not make me want to heave when I see it at the table... but it does. Strangely, I am perfectly okay with fantasy in film or television, and actually enjoy it. But reading it is like wiping my eyes with 100 grit sandpaper.

As for Heinlein's stuff, Job, and Number of the Beast (which was hilariously awful), and The Cat Who Walks Through Walls doesn't use any of the fantasy mechanics that Glory Road does, and even when he is scientifically showing how the dragon has firely breath, my willing suspension of disbelief has gathered a length of twine and is throttling my brain.

Oh, good, Wind, I'm glad you asked—I was wondering the same thing.

Hey, derego, have you tried Tad William's Memory, Sorrow & Thorn trilogy? It's pretty much epic in length, but you may find it more palatable. You have to make it through the first ca. 100 pages, though. It lays down a lot of groundwork that you may find slow, and then there's a long wander through some dark tunnels (which I personally think is brilliantly done, but others find it tedious). After that, though, it's hard to put down. But if you don't like it, just be warned that the first book ends in a cliffhanger.

I guess my guilty secret would be that I enjoyed the first 6 Dragonlance novels... though I haven't read them in years decades.

<edit: typo>

[Tango Alpha Delta]

I went through an intense Xanth-loving phase in my early teens.  Haven't gone near the books since.  In their defense, I don't think Piers Anthony ever intended for them to be anything more than fun froth.

Shortly afterwards I graduated to Anthony's "Cluster" series.  Only afterwards did I realize that the stories could be reduced to "Hero travels to new planet.  Hero learns to have sex in local fashion.  Repeat."

I thought the Xanth stuff was great (y'all know how I enjoy puns by now) until I got old enough to realize that his obsessions with young girls' panties wasn't quite... appropriate?  acceptable?  palatable?

Never did try the "Cluster" or "Adept" stuff, though... Enjoyed the first couple of "Incarnations of Immortality" until even HE seemed to get bored with writing them. 

[Boggled Coriander]

I went through an intense Xanth-loving phase in my early teens.  Haven't gone near the books since.  In their defense, I don't think Piers Anthony ever intended for them to be anything more than fun froth.

Shortly afterwards I graduated to Anthony's "Cluster" series.  Only afterwards did I realize that the stories could be reduced to "Hero travels to new planet.  Hero learns to have sex in local fashion.  Repeat."

Clusterf#ck? 

All I'll say is, Piers Anthony seems to have put quite a bit of thought into how non-humanoid aliens might have sexual intercourse.  (In all fairness, I remember enjoying the books quite a bit... maybe I should seek them out again and see if they hold up.)

[wintermute]

I went through an intense Xanth-loving phase in my early teens.  Haven't gone near the books since.  In their defense, I don't think Piers Anthony ever intended for them to be anything more than fun froth.

Shortly afterwards I graduated to Anthony's "Cluster" series.  Only afterwards did I realize that the stories could be reduced to "Hero travels to new planet.  Hero learns to have sex in local fashion.  Repeat."

Clusterf#ck? 

All I'll say is, Piers Anthony seems to have put quite a bit of thought into how non-humanoid aliens might have sexual intercourse.  (In all fairness, I remember enjoying the books quite a bit... maybe I should seek them out again and see if they hold up.)

Larry Niven also seems to be quite obsessed with inter-species sex (though, in the case of Ringworld, I think it's technically intra-species sex). He even wrote an essay about Superman's sex problems...

[stePH]

Larry Niven also seems to be quite obsessed with inter-species sex (though, in the case of Ringworld, I think it's technically intra-species sex).

Don't think so; "rishathra" was defined as "sex outside of one's species, but within the hominids."

[wintermute]

Larry Niven also seems to be quite obsessed with inter-species sex (though, in the case of Ringworld, I think it's technically intra-species sex).

Don't think so; "rishathra" was defined as "sex outside of one's species, but within the hominids."

Well, the Ringworld species are all descendants of the Pak (who, for the sake of simplicity can be considered human), so they're all within the clade "humans". Whether you consider them to be different species, or different races* within a species is a matter of semantics, and depends on which definition of "species" you use.

One of the classic definitions (the Biological Species Concept) involves reproductive isolation, with any two populations that are capable of interbreeding being considered the same species. If the Machine People can breed with the City Builders, and the City Builders can breed with River People, and River People can breed with Ghouls, then all of these groups are members of the same species.

I can't remember if interfertility was specifically addressed, but either way, depending on the definition you use, you could make a case either way; whereas with kryptonians and humans (or klingons and humans) there's no way to consider them in any way related.

Oh, and "hominids" is... well, not wrong, exactly, but misleading. The hominid group includes chimps and gorillas, but not baboons and gibbons, and is a very arbitrary line to draw. All the Ringworld populations are definitely hominoids (members of genus Homo) and, for that matter, if we do define them as separate species, they're all members of the family Homo sapiens, so a better definition would be "sex outside of one's species, but within the humans", though that might be somewhat confusing.

* Biologically "race" encompasses far larger variations than are seen within populations of humans outside of science fiction. There is only one race of humans

[stePH]

I can't remember if interfertility was specifically addressed, but either way, depending on the definition you use, you could make a case either way; whereas with kryptonians and humans (or klingons and humans) there's no way to consider them in any way related.

"Klingons and humans" is a poor example.  The Star Trek universe has the ludicrous concept that all alien races are cross-fertile. 

[Darwinist]

I can't remember if interfertility was specifically addressed, but either way, depending on the definition you use, you could make a case either way; whereas with kryptonians and humans (or klingons and humans) there's no way to consider them in any way related.

"Klingons and humans" is a poor example.  The Star Trek universe has the ludicrous concept that all alien races are cross-fertile. 

And I think there was an STNG episode where Picard, a Klingon, and a Romulon were on a planet with some ancient dude who explained that all these races basically came from the same pond of primordal goo.  I guess if they branched off late enough in the evolutionary tree they would have the ability to interbreed.   

[Windup]

I can't remember if interfertility was specifically addressed, but either way, depending on the definition you use, you could make a case either way; whereas with kryptonians and humans (or klingons and humans) there's no way to consider them in any way related.

"Klingons and humans" is a poor example.  The Star Trek universe has the ludicrous concept that all alien races are cross-fertile. 

And I think there was an STNG episode where Picard, a Klingon, and a Romulon were on a planet with some ancient dude who explained that all these races basically came from the same pond of primordal goo.  I guess if they branched off late enough in the evolutionary tree they would have the ability to interbreed.   

I remember the episode, but there are enough other differnces that I can't believe they'd be close enough.  We can't cross with chimps, and it's hard to buy the idea we're genetically closer to Klingons and Vulcans than chimps.

The only way this assumption made sense to me was if reproduction was routinely done via artificial manipulation, rather than "the old-fashioned way." 

In reality, I suspect it was just a "convention" of the series that crept in before anyone had much chance to think about it.

[stePH]

I can't remember if interfertility was specifically addressed, but either way, depending on the definition you use, you could make a case either way; whereas with kryptonians and humans (or klingons and humans) there's no way to consider them in any way related.

"Klingons and humans" is a poor example.  The Star Trek universe has the ludicrous concept that all alien races are cross-fertile. 

And I think there was an STNG episode where Picard, a Klingon, and a Romulon were on a planet with some ancient dude who explained that all these races basically came from the same pond of primordal goo.  I guess if they branched off late enough in the evolutionary tree they would have the ability to interbreed.   

I remember that one.  I think it was called "The Chase".  For some reason I thought one of the searchers was a Cardassian.

[Darwinist]

I can't remember if interfertility was specifically addressed, but either way, depending on the definition you use, you could make a case either way; whereas with kryptonians and humans (or klingons and humans) there's no way to consider them in any way related.

"Klingons and humans" is a poor example.  The Star Trek universe has the ludicrous concept that all alien races are cross-fertile. 

And I think there was an STNG episode where Picard, a Klingon, and a Romulon were on a planet with some ancient dude who explained that all these races basically came from the same pond of primordal goo.  I guess if they branched off late enough in the evolutionary tree they would have the ability to interbreed.   

I remember the episode, but there are enough other differnces that I can't believe they'd be close enough.  We can't cross with chimps, and it's hard to buy the idea we're genetically closer to Klingons and Vulcans than chimps.

Yeah, but scientists think that we may have interbred with Neanderthals, which were a fairly close relative at one time.  So maybe we branched off from Klingons, Vulcans, and the others late enough that our reproductive processes were still compatible.

[Darwinist]

I can't remember if interfertility was specifically addressed, but either way, depending on the definition you use, you could make a case either way; whereas with kryptonians and humans (or klingons and humans) there's no way to consider them in any way related.

"Klingons and humans" is a poor example.  The Star Trek universe has the ludicrous concept that all alien races are cross-fertile. 

And I think there was an STNG episode where Picard, a Klingon, and a Romulon were on a planet with some ancient dude who explained that all these races basically came from the same pond of primordal goo.  I guess if they branched off late enough in the evolutionary tree they would have the ability to interbreed.   

I remember that one.  I think it was called "The Chase".  For some reason I thought one of the searchers was a Cardassian.

Yeah, I think you're right.  My memory isn't too good.

[stePH]

And I think there was an STNG episode where Picard, a Klingon, and a Romulon were on a planet with some ancient dude who explained that all these races basically came from the same pond of primordal goo.  I guess if they branched off late enough in the evolutionary tree they would have the ability to interbreed.   

I remember that one.  I think it was called "The Chase".  For some reason I thought one of the searchers was a Cardassian.

Yeah, I think you're right.  My memory isn't too good.

Nor mine.  We could both be wrong.

[Windup]

You both have better memories than you thought...

They were Cardassians, and the ep is called "The Chase."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chase_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

[Ocicat]

We can't cross with chimps, and it's hard to buy the idea we're genetically closer to Klingons and Vulcans than chimps. 

Okay, we're totally off topic now - but actually we probably can breed with chimps.  We just, you know, don't.  And scientists won't touch the issue with a 10 foot pole.  Much less try actually doing it - for fear they'd have hoards of angry citizens at their door with torches and pitchforks.  Which probably isn't far from how the public would react if someone were to produce such a creature, even in a test tube.

[wintermute]

Yeah, but scientists think that we may have interbred with Neanderthals, which were a fairly close relative at one time.  So maybe we branched off from Klingons, Vulcans, and the others late enough that our reproductive processes were still compatible.

According to the episode, what was left on the various dead planets were bacteria, which had a genetic imperative of some kind to evolve into a humanoid, and all life on those planets evolved from those bacteria. Which explains why jellyfish and giraffes look so much like humans.

So, in the Star Trek canon, you are more closely related to (and therefore more likely to be interfertile with) an ear or corn than a vulcan or klingon.

The alternative hypothesis is that a group of Homo Habilis developed warp travel without leaving any evidence of an industrial society, and then somehow evolved copper-based blood, extra hearts or telepathy. In that case, they might be "closely enough related" to be able to interbreed, in theory, but the massive differences in physiology would probably mean that any pregnancy would be inviable.

Before that episode, I was happy enough to assume that all the aliens didn't really look like humans in make-up, but that the producers didn't have access to enough non-bipedal actors to fill out the roles. Of course, the half-breeds can't be rationalised as being anything other than a very bad idea, but that episode made everything about Star Trek aliens suck.

[wintermute]

We can't cross with chimps, and it's hard to buy the idea we're genetically closer to Klingons and Vulcans than chimps. 

Okay, we're totally off topic now - but actually we probably can breed with chimps.  We just, you know, don't.  And scientists won't touch the issue with a 10 foot pole.  Much less try actually doing it - for fear they'd have hoards of angry citizens at their door with torches and pitchforks.  Which probably isn't far from how the public would react if someone were to produce such a creature, even in a test tube.

As an example, consider the outrage currently going on because some researchers implanted a human nucleus into a cow egg, and grew it to the 32-cell stage (this would be before the embryo implants in the uterus wall).

Whether or not humans and chimps are interfertile is hotly debated - one issue is that they have one more chromosome pair, which often (but not always) prevents interfertility. There have been experiments in the past, and several human/chimp hybrids have been claimed, but there's really not been any hard evidence. See Wikipedia's Humanzee article for more detail.

[jrderego]

We can't cross with chimps, and it's hard to buy the idea we're genetically closer to Klingons and Vulcans than chimps. 

Okay, we're totally off topic now - but actually we probably can breed with chimps.  We just, you know, don't.  And scientists won't touch the issue with a 10 foot pole.  Much less try actually doing it - for fear they'd have hoards of angry citizens at their door with torches and pitchforks.  Which probably isn't far from how the public would react if someone were to produce such a creature, even in a test tube.

As an example, consider the outrage currently going on because some researchers implanted a human nucleus into a cow egg, and grew it to the 32-cell stage (this would be before the embryo implants in the uterus wall).

Whether or not humans and chimps are interfertile is hotly debated - one issue is that they have one more chromosome pair, which often (but not always) prevents interfertility. There have been experiments in the past, and several human/chimp hybrids have been claimed, but there's really not been any hard evidence. See Wikipedia's Humanzee article for more detail.

History Channel just did a documentary about Stalin's plan to create human/chimpanzee hybrids to fight the cold war. It went as far as implanting chimpanzee sperm into human women, or so the show purports.

And, before anyone else jumps in with the quote - "Get your damn hands off me you dirty ape!"

[Darwinist]

We can't cross with chimps, and it's hard to buy the idea we're genetically closer to Klingons and Vulcans than chimps. 

Okay, we're totally off topic now - but actually we probably can breed with chimps.  We just, you know, don't.  And scientists won't touch the issue with a 10 foot pole.  Much less try actually doing it - for fear they'd have hoards of angry citizens at their door with torches and pitchforks.  Which probably isn't far from how the public would react if someone were to produce such a creature, even in a test tube.

As an example, consider the outrage currently going on because some researchers implanted a human nucleus into a cow egg, and grew it to the 32-cell stage (this would be before the embryo implants in the uterus wall).

Whether or not humans and chimps are interfertile is hotly debated - one issue is that they have one more chromosome pair, which often (but not always) prevents interfertility. There have been experiments in the past, and several human/chimp hybrids have been claimed, but there's really not been any hard evidence. See Wikipedia's Humanzee article for more detail.

History Channel just did a documentary about Stalin's plan to create human/chimpanzee hybrids to fight the cold war. It went as far as implanting chimpanzee sperm into human women, or so the show purports.

And, before anyone else jumps in with the quote - "Get your damn hands off me you dirty ape!"

Wasn't it: "Get your paws off me, you damned, dirty apes!"

Another great one:  "It's a made house.....A MAD HOUSE!!"

[jrderego]

We can't cross with chimps, and it's hard to buy the idea we're genetically closer to Klingons and Vulcans than chimps. 

Okay, we're totally off topic now - but actually we probably can breed with chimps.  We just, you know, don't.  And scientists won't touch the issue with a 10 foot pole.  Much less try actually doing it - for fear they'd have hoards of angry citizens at their door with torches and pitchforks.  Which probably isn't far from how the public would react if someone were to produce such a creature, even in a test tube.

As an example, consider the outrage currently going on because some researchers implanted a human nucleus into a cow egg, and grew it to the 32-cell stage (this would be before the embryo implants in the uterus wall).

Whether or not humans and chimps are interfertile is hotly debated - one issue is that they have one more chromosome pair, which often (but not always) prevents interfertility. There have been experiments in the past, and several human/chimp hybrids have been claimed, but there's really not been any hard evidence. See Wikipedia's Humanzee article for more detail.

History Channel just did a documentary about Stalin's plan to create human/chimpanzee hybrids to fight the cold war. It went as far as implanting chimpanzee sperm into human women, or so the show purports.

And, before anyone else jumps in with the quote - "Get your damn hands off me you dirty ape!"

Wasn't it: "Get your paws off me, you damned, dirty apes!"

Another great one:  "It's a made house.....A MAD HOUSE!!"

Yes yes, that's the quote!

[Tango Alpha Delta]

So, in the Star Trek canon, you are more closely related to (and therefore more likely to be interfertile with) an ear [of] corn than a vulcan or klingon.

Hmm... There's a certain South Park episode in which Wendy Testaburger declaims "F*** Gregory!  F*** him right in the ear!"  They also did an entire episode about cross-species fertility entitle An Elephant [Makes Love to] a Pig.

And then there's the satellite dish that grows out of Cartman's butt... and the aliens who only say "Moo"...

My God... South Park IS sci-fi!!!  (Which brings us back on topic, because South Park is a Guilty Pleasure.  You're welcome.    )

[stePH]

Hmm... There's a certain South Park episode in which Wendy Testaburger declaims "F*** Gregory!  F*** him right in the ear!"

And a certain Family Guy episode in which kids wanting to stay virginal have ear-sex.