Author Topic: EP156: Distant Replay  (Read 39355 times)

birdless

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Reply #50 on: May 07, 2008, 04:14:53 AM
I know I'm probably the only one who thinks this but I really don't like Steve Anderson's readings.  I know this is subjective, but every story I hear him read I feel the same way.  Every sentence...is groaned out...and has a big...emphasis...on everything.   From the start... to finish... he uses the same inflection...on everything.
C'mon.
"Trying too hard" sums it up for me.  In audiofiction, story is 1/3 and story telling is 2/3.
You aren't the only one. I thought his voice would have been good for this week's PC Hotel Astarte, but not this particular story.



Windup

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Reply #51 on: May 07, 2008, 04:22:44 AM
On this one, I guess I'm just another member of the camp that found it OK, but not overwhelming.  

I didn't find the narrator's behavior creepy, since we knew why he was doing it, though I was surprised that the woman agreed to have dinner with him on a regular basis.  It makes sense to me that having identified some sort of larger (and apparently benign) force at work, trying to understand how to cooperate with it an play the right role is the right thing to do.  

As for the "soulmate" thing, the problem that I see with it is that it gives too much emphasis to who comes into the relationship, and not enough on what they put into it.  Love, to my mind, is mostly a matter of doing what is right for the relationship, and putting the needs of the relationship first. (Note that sometimes, the right thing is to take care of yourself.) I'll grant that this seems easier with the "right" person, but getting it done is more important than your reason for doing so.

I thought the narrator was a great pick for this story, too...

"My whole job is in the space between 'should be' and 'is.' It's a big space."


Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #52 on: May 07, 2008, 11:07:41 AM
Rain will have to do her own elaborating, but for my part, there's a lot of stalkerly behavior justified in internal monologue by 'I can't be a stalker because I can't get it up'.  No.  Dude.  Your ability to fulfill the sexual act is independent of behaving like a stalker. 

... She also pretty clearly gives off 'leave me alone' signals (verbally and physically) at the beginning which he ignores, though she does seem to be persuaded by the weirdness of it all to tolerate him, and they do seem to move on to a genuine friendship at some point. 

... Still, it's enough to justify a sense of creepiness for me, that's for sure.

Again, I liked the story.  But I can totally see the creepy and felt it myself, to some degree.

Alright, let me preface these remarks by saying that I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Resnick; I don't intend anything here to disparage his skills or track record as a writer.  If I ever manage to get published, I hope to maintain the grounded sense of dignity and good sportsmanship that he has shown by wading in with the opinionated masses here in the forums on occasion.

However, part of my defense of Old Walter lies in a writerly flaw; I don't think the patterns of creepiness that Anarkey picked up on (and I assume the same is true for Rain to some extent) came from Mike Resnick trying to convince his audience that Walter is not a stalker, rather than from Walter trying to convince himself that his motives are ... less unpure.  To his credit, the line was less crude than "I can't get it up, so I can't be a stalker"; it was phrased in a way that seemed more like an aside, and I thought it was meant to dispel any audience associations with Lolita.  I think it was a mistake on the part of the author, because a) at 31, Didi is no Lolita, and b) it put the sex angle into the mind of the reader - which made it sound creepier (as evidenced by Anarkey's comments) than intended.

The other part of my defense, though, should compliment Mr. Resnick's sensibilities.  I think it's quite uncharitable to call Walter's behavior creepy and compare him to a stalker.  He's lonely, for one thing; that should be obvious.  He's also confronted with the person he is missing most - not just a close resemblance, but the *real* thing, right down to the perfume. 

If you've spent any time around the elderly you notice two things: they are very intensely interested in you once you get their attention (which can be confused with "unwelcome attention") and their more distant memories are far more real and relevant than anything happening in their present.  You can see both traits at play in this story.

And I wonder, if it had been Didi who had survived (since statistically, women tend to outlive their men) would you have had the same qualms about her finding her young Walter?  Would you be bothered by her behavior?  I'm sure that if Mr. Resnick had written the story with an elderly female protagonist, the idea that she was looking to bed the younger version of her dead spouse would not have even been raised.

I may not have convinced you that Walter is less creepy... but I hope I've made you reconsider how you judge real old-timers!  (Because I've been feeling like one of them since that last birthday.  :P )


As for the "soulmate" thing, the problem that I see with it is that it gives too much emphasis to who comes into the relationship, and not enough on what they put into it.  Love, to my mind, is mostly a matter of doing what is right for the relationship, and putting the needs of the relationship first. (Note that sometimes, the right thing is to take care of yourself.) I'll grant that this seems easier with the "right" person, but getting it done is more important than your reason for doing so.


Absolutely!  That attitude has a lot to do with "not being sure", too.  If you're too busy looking for "that exciting feeling", you will probably miss the stable, loving relationship that you claim you want.

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Reply #53 on: May 07, 2008, 11:57:40 AM
my favorite quote on that is here Yogi Berra

Stepping in here as a moderator.  When you're referring to a seven word quote, just put in the quote instead of linking to a page where the quote is down the page.  It just makes things a little easier.



Biscuit

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Reply #54 on: May 07, 2008, 09:42:17 PM
Sometimes I feel we over-analyse. Discourse is great, but sometimes a simple love story is a simple love story.

While some may disparage the sentimentality of a Simple Love Story, or find less than savoury meanings that weren't intended (is that a generation thing? Has the media primed us to find a creep in every seeming good deed?), Mike Resnick makes it flow so effortlessly, makes the emotion effective without being cheesey, that the simplicity should be applauded.

In an age where some writers seem to be throwing out a "Beat THIS!" with their technical wankery, it's refreshing to have someone write WELL about the simple things in life. As I've said before I'm not a big fan of over-sentimental SF&F, but I am always impressed by someone who can write it without making it glurg.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 09:45:58 PM by Biscuit »



eytanz

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Reply #55 on: May 07, 2008, 10:01:01 PM
(is that a generation thing? Has the media primed us to find a creep in every seeming good deed

You know, I didn't really have time today to respond to Anarkey properly, and I was sort of hoping Rain would post as well, but I agree with this worry, as well as with what TAD posted. It seems to me, especially after reading Anarkey's post, that to interpret the man's actions as creepy we need to be subconciously primed for an excuse to do so - it is a reflection of a society where basic human interaction is discouraged outside of very narrowly prescribed social bounderies, where an old man taking any type of interest in a younger woman, for whatever reason, is viewed with suspicion and possible disgust. Where any overture which is not immediately welcomed is viewed as unwelcome attention. Where openness is interpreted as either vulnerability or creepiness, depending on who exhibits it.

Not, mind you, that I'm saying that that is Anarkey's attitude, or Rain's attitude. What I'm saying is that that is the underlying current in our society, and that it affects all our attitudes to some degree.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 10:29:46 PM by eytanz »



qwints

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Reply #56 on: May 08, 2008, 04:48:47 AM
Just to play devil's advocate, there are real reasons for being creeped out by the protagonist. A feminist reading of the passage could focus on the woman's unhealthy need to find her identity as a wife and the old man as the voice of the patriarchy forcing her into an eternity of subjugation. I don't think that would be a proper reading of the story and an actual literary critic would be much more subtle.
With that kind of critique in mind, this quote made me think.
Quote from: eytanz link=topic=1577.msg26257#msg26257
date=1210197661
It seems to me, especially after reading Anarkey's post, that to interpret the man's actions as creepy we need to be subconciously primed for an excuse to do so - it is a reflection of a society where basic human interaction is discouraged outside of very narrowly prescribed social bounderies, where an old man taking any type of interest in a younger woman, for whatever reason, is viewed with suspicion and possible disgust. Where any overture which is not immediately welcomed is viewed as unwelcome attention. Where openness is interpreted as either vulnerability or creepiness, depending on who exhibits it.

Not, mind you, that I'm saying that that is Anarkey's attitude, or Rain's attitude. What I'm saying is that that is the underlying current in our society, and that it affects all our attitudes to some degree.
Although Mr. Resnick's comments early in the thread make me discard this as intentional, there is an element in this story which could be an argument that social taboos constantly restrict us from our true happiness. Think of all the people you come in contact with in a modern society who you never even acknowledge the existence of. The idea that your soulmate could be a local stranger is a powerful one. Given the restrictions we place on our interactions with strangers for well founded reasons,  I could run into a best friend or a soul mate regularly without a prayer of ever getting to know them.

As I think about it, young Dede's passivity does start to bother me. The internal conflict she has between the fear of being alone and the fear of ending up with the wrong person is a very believable one, but the only thing we see her do is fret over her dilemma. I guess I need to see the protagonist as a fairy godmother type figure who steps into to save the day. I can't help liking the story, but the more I think about it, the more powerful I think a good feminist critique of it would be.

*edited for a formatting error
« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 04:54:38 AM by qwints »

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cuddlebug

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Reply #57 on: May 08, 2008, 09:24:48 AM
(is that a generation thing? Has the media primed us to find a creep in every seeming good deed

It seems to me, especially after reading Anarkey's post, that to interpret the man's actions as creepy we need to be subconciously primed for an excuse to do so - it is a reflection of a society where basic human interaction is discouraged outside of very narrowly prescribed social bounderies, where an old man taking any type of interest in a younger woman, for whatever reason, is viewed with suspicion and possible disgust. Where any overture which is not immediately welcomed is viewed as unwelcome attention.

... or in extreme cases HARASSMENT.

Where openness is interpreted as either vulnerability or creepiness, depending on who exhibits it.

I heard someone say something on this issue once which kind of stuck with me. He said "Flirting is only considered flirting as long as it is welcome, when it's not welcome it becomes harassment."

To my mind, the interesting thing in this story is, how the interpretation of Walter's behavior changes from being considered creepy or stalker..ly (?) to the behavior of a concerned friend who is doing one last good deed for his wife's Doppelgänger/reincarnation.

I have to say, I personally did not find his actions creepy at all, what did bother me though, was that he had to keep defending his behavior, by reassuring her, that he had no ulterior motives and does not intend to bed her. So going along with what has been said before, it seems like we are living in a society where our behavior has to be guarded at all times for fear of harassing others.... even if this means we are not actually doing and saying the things we might want to. Kind of sad, isn't it?



eytanz

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Reply #58 on: May 08, 2008, 10:24:40 AM
Where openness is interpreted as either vulnerability or creepiness, depending on who exhibits it.

I heard someone say something on this issue once which kind of stuck with me. He said "Flirting is only considered flirting as long as it is welcome, when it's not welcome it becomes harassment."


I'm not entirely sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. In any case, I should point out that continuing to flirt with someone AFTER they make it known that it is unwelcome is harassment. What I was railing against is the fact that we seem to have shifted to a society where you are prejudged - if you flirt with someone, or otherwise show attention, it is retroactively harassment unless the response is positive. I certainly think people need to respect other people's right to say "no", but I think "no" applies to the future - all else being kosher (i.e. the two parties involved are adults and there are no other special factors) it means "stop", not "you were wrong to try".



cuddlebug

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Reply #59 on: May 08, 2008, 10:55:20 AM
Thanks for clearing that up. ... and yes, I was agreeing with you.



CGFxColONeill

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Reply #60 on: May 08, 2008, 01:18:53 PM
my favorite quote on that is here Yogi Berra

Stepping in here as a moderator.  When you're referring to a seven word quote, just put in the quote instead of linking to a page where the quote is down the page.  It just makes things a little easier.
thanks for the tip

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Listener

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Reply #61 on: May 09, 2008, 01:40:16 PM
An old man just lost his wife of many decades, and then he randomly sees a young woman looks just like his wife at that age.

I thought she had died a few years back.

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Darwinist

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Reply #62 on: May 09, 2008, 01:43:19 PM
An old man just lost his wife of many decades, and then he randomly sees a young woman looks just like his wife at that age.

I thought she had died a few years back.

They were married for decades.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


wintermute

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Reply #63 on: May 09, 2008, 02:36:35 PM
An old man just lost his wife of many decades, and then he randomly sees a young woman looks just like his wife at that age.

I thought she had died a few years back.

They were married for decades.

But he hadn't "just" lost her.

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vanya

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Reply #64 on: May 09, 2008, 03:56:11 PM
Wow. I'm shocked at the positive feedback to be honest. I thought this was a very mediocre story. My first reaction was "That got nominated for a Hugo?????".  Ignoring the fact that it isn't even science fiction, the story managed to combine trite sentimentality with a lack of narrative drive and a predictable ending. The second Walter got his death sentence from the Doc I knew where the story was headed.  I also just didn't like Walter that much - he's such an empty man. If your love for a woman consumes you to the point that you don't appear to have any real outside interests, hobbies or friends than that's a very unhealthy solipsistic  sort of love. It didn't help that the narration sounded like a younger person's imitation of a man in his 70s, not like a man in his 70s.

The really interesting angle of this story got missed in all Walter's self-pitying monologue - young Dierdre and Walter must really be sort of alienated outsiders in our era. While the original versions were very much people of their era, who are these early 30 year olds who apparently wear early 1960s fashions and whose aesthetic taste is trapped in the 50s? The "copies" seem like they are much more interesting than the "originals", yet we don't learn a lot about them.



Roney

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Reply #65 on: May 09, 2008, 06:38:23 PM

My first reaction was "That got nominated for a Hugo?????".




Not quite my first reaction, but it's the one that lingers.  It's a cute story, very skilfully told, occasionally moving, and paced nicely so as not to drag out the revelations that the reader has already guessed.  It may even be one of the best short stories of 2007 (not having read many new stories last year I wouldn't like to say).  But if that's the best Speculative Fiction of last year then I think the genre needs to take a long look at what makes its stories different from the rest of literature.



Quote

The really interesting angle of this story got missed in all Walter's self-pitying monologue - young Dierdre and Walter must really be sort of alienated outsiders in our era. While the original versions were very much people of their era, who are these early 30 year olds who apparently wear early 1960s fashions and whose aesthetic taste is trapped in the 50s?




That thought kept distracting me too.



DKT

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Reply #66 on: May 09, 2008, 06:40:59 PM

Quote

The really interesting angle of this story got missed in all Walter's self-pitying monologue - young Dierdre and Walter must really be sort of alienated outsiders in our era. While the original versions were very much people of their era, who are these early 30 year olds who apparently wear early 1960s fashions and whose aesthetic taste is trapped in the 50s?




That thought kept distracting me too.

I did think about that some, especially when young Walter called old Walter "Fella."


stePH

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Reply #67 on: May 09, 2008, 07:02:15 PM
The really interesting angle of this story got missed in all Walter's self-pitying monologue - young Dierdre and Walter must really be sort of alienated outsiders in our era. While the original versions were very much people of their era, who are these early 30 year olds who apparently wear early 1960s fashions and whose aesthetic taste is trapped in the 50s?

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« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 07:03:53 PM by stePH »

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Grim...

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Reply #68 on: May 15, 2008, 09:31:05 AM
Good Lord that Mr. Anderson can read a story. Here's hoping he takes the blue pill so he can read again, eh?



zZzacha

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Reply #69 on: May 15, 2008, 11:41:37 AM
Wow, wonderful story. I really love Mike Resnick Stories. Barnaby in Exile was superb! I want more of those :]  Bring 'em on!!!

Also, great to hear from the master himself how he came to write this story. Gives the story even more depth IMHO.

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Reply #70 on: May 15, 2008, 02:24:48 PM
Fantastic story, excellent reading, A+!

I was engaged instantly, the story kept my complete attention until the last word, and gave me plenty to think about afterwards. Three cheers for Escape Pod!



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Reply #71 on: May 18, 2008, 08:56:14 AM
While the narration was excellent and I can see that there is a good story there, it just did not spark any interest in me.
So I think it was down to my own tastes rather than being a poor story that I found it boring.


multikay

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Reply #72 on: May 29, 2008, 03:01:44 PM
Sadly, I have to agree with those who dislike the story. All the time while listening to this I hade the terrible vision how this story would spawn a movie directed by Norah Ephron, starring Kevin Costner and Gwyneth Paltrow. This actually makes me wonder how on earth stories get nominated for a Hugo ...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 03:03:35 PM by multikay »



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Reply #73 on: July 02, 2008, 06:20:20 PM
I thought it was okay and then I read the break down in here and decided it was claaaaaap!

I know I am a newb and totally behind on the stories... but if I may:

The old dude was totally creepy.  And YES, there is a fine line.  If the person is hot/cool it is a boyfriend/girlfriend, otherwise it is a stalker. =)

The chick was a total slut, just look at what she was wearing.  She was asking for it. 

Seriously, is it REALLY that hard to find somebody?  I guess if you believe in the whole "soul mate" thing.. well.  I think that is sad and incredibly limiting.  How many people do you know that are together that didn’t like the first impression of the other?  And perhaps I am alone, but who I "like" changes from moment to moment.  But most of the time a good fart joke is the ticket. 

I think this is just a story to make people that won’t settle for that special anyone to break out the tissues.

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Reply #74 on: July 11, 2008, 08:25:14 AM
(is that a generation thing? Has the media primed us to find a creep in every seeming good deed

You know, I didn't really have time today to respond to Anarkey properly, and I was sort of hoping Rain would post as well, but I agree with this worry, as well as with what TAD posted. It seems to me, especially after reading Anarkey's post, that to interpret the man's actions as creepy we need to be subconciously primed for an excuse to do so - it is a reflection of a society where basic human interaction is discouraged outside of very narrowly prescribed social bounderies, where an old man taking any type of interest in a younger woman, for whatever reason, is viewed with suspicion and possible disgust. Where any overture which is not immediately welcomed is viewed as unwelcome attention. Where openness is interpreted as either vulnerability or creepiness, depending on who exhibits it.

Not, mind you, that I'm saying that that is Anarkey's attitude, or Rain's attitude. What I'm saying is that that is the underlying current in our society, and that it affects all our attitudes to some degree.
That it does.

I'm a guy, 55 years old, and pretty much look it. About a year and a half ago, I was driving to work as usual on a back road that cuts off a few hundred meters from my route, and is generally less populated and more scenic (farm, cow pasture, hayfields, etc.) than the main road. I see this girl jogging. I recognise her as the fairly attractive teenage daughter, Melanie, of my wife's good friend Donna. We had met her at odd times when we visited Donna. Melanie was on the high school soccer team, and I figured the running was part of her training. I give a brief wave as I pass her. Then it seemed that every morning I would pass her at about the same place, like clockwork. She'd give this shy little wave as I passed, and I'd wave back. Last spring, she didn't show up for a few months, and I knew that Melanie had graduated and would be going to university about 200 km away. I figured she went early, for a summer job or something. Then one day in the early fall, I saw her running again - same time, same general area. We waved.

A few days later I was talking to Donna on the phone and asked her if Melanie had been home for the weekend. Donna said "no, why?" I explained about us waving to each other while I was driving to work on that back road. It turns out that the young woman I had been waving to was somebody else entirely. A total stranger, except for our waving ritual. I've never seen her in other places, such as the local grocery store, or at least I've never recognized her anywhere else.

Now I'm left with this conundrum. I have this vague need to explain myself or or apologize or something to this stranger, since the ritual began as a result of a misunderstanding on my part. Do I...
A. Stop waving back and ignore her from now on. (seems rude)
B. Keep waving as usual. (seems ... I dunno what)
C. Stop the car when I see her (on the deserted back road), roll down the window as she passes and start talking to her, to explain myself. (prepare to be pepper-sprayed?)

I've been primed to be aware that "option C." could make me seem creepy, especially if she decided to just keep running without hearing what I said. I wouldn't be able to try it again without scaring her. She might feel a need to change her route.
Maybe I could prepare a note and toss it out just before we pass each other, hoping that she'd pick it up and read after I drove by, but that just seems too weird, even to me.

The only thing I can figure might work is to find some other woman who also runs (hey, I know one who trains for marathons!) and who might know who the mystery runner is (it's a small town). I explain the situation to her, and she tells the mystery woman what's going on, and we merely continue with option B.

It all makes me feel like I'm in an episode of Seinfield.

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