EP158: Who’s Afraid of Wolf 359?

[Russell Nash]

EP158: Who’s Afraid of Wolf 359?

2008 Hugo Nominee!

By Ken MacLeod.
Read by Stephen Eley.
First appeared in The New Space Opera, ed. Gardner Dozois & Jonathan Strahan.

When you’re as old as I am, you’ll find your memory’s not what it was. It’s not that you lose memories. That hasn’t happened to me or anyone else since the Paleocosmic Era, the Old Space Age, when people lived in caves on the Moon. My trouble is that I’ve gained memories, and I don’t know which of them are real. I was very casual about memory storage back then, I seem to recall. This could happen to you too, if you’re not careful. So be warned. Do as I say, not as I did.

Some of the tales about me contradict each other, or couldn’t possibly have happened, because that’s how I told them in the first place. Others I blame on the writers and tellers. They make things up. I’ve never done that. If I’ve told stories that couldn’t be true, it’s because that’s how I remember them.

Here’s one.

Rated R. Contains profanity, nudity, and in flagrante delicto.


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Referenced Sites:
2008 Hugo Awards
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Listen to this week’s Escape Pod!

[wintermute]

Not listened to the story yet, but I think the answer to the question posed by the title is "Benjamin Sisko".

Do I win a prize?

[Russell Nash]

Do I win a prize?

No, go sit down.

[Darwinist]

I liked this one.   The idea of a rogue derelict settlement taking over was cool and the settings were neatly described.  The ending felt a bit rushed to me, though.  Probably my third favorite of the Hugos, ahead of last week's mystery.   

[qwints]

I really wanted him to be kicked into a well at the end.

Well written story, but the political system sounded like it was straight out of Heinlein. I liked the main character and the idea of a former minor government functionary taking over the universe was pretty fun. The arrival in the system was a bit slapstick for my taste. I guess I'm trying to say good, but not great.

[Void Munashii]

  This was my favourite of the Hugo nominees. It reminded me a lot of the Stainless Steel Rat stories, as starting a war in that fashions sounds very much like something Jim DiGriz would do, save for all the loss of life.
  The only criticism I really have is that I did get a bit lost as to exactly what was going on at the end, but I guess that listening to it again while I am not driving will fix that.
  I really liked how the use of AI's taking over, and all of a world's water freezing over (ice-nine?) were used as background events as opposed to being the main focus of the story. I am definitely interested in reading more of MacLeod's work now.

[Jhite]

This story was ummm ok!

The idea of a rouge world coming back and taking over was pretty interesting.  It reminded me a bit of the foundation series.  I personally think that with time dilation of near light travel that this is the kind of thing that could happen if you spread out too much.  Humans being the war like people that we are, I can see it happening to us.

I have to agree with the fact that the landing seemed kind of slapstick.  There is nothing wrong with that kind of writing but I found it a bit distracting. 

The worst part of the story for me, and well the author went as far as to point it out for everyone, was that there was so much more story to tell.  I don't think that it belonged in the confines of this piece, the idea that what you don't write is as important as what you don't, but I think it would be great if there were  more written in this universe.  It seemed fascinating to me.  On that note I am a sucker for grand scale views of the future.    See Clarke, Herbert, Roddenberry, Asimov and you will find some of my favorite authors.

[ScottC]

Listening to this, I felt that I was missing a lot of the back story.  With some stories, that's OK.  It can be fun working out how society and history are in a story.  This one, not so much. 

For instance, the main character's revulsion when they say 'Earth'.  Without more information, it has no impact.  Sometimes, you need context. 

[Darwinist]

For instance, the main character's revulsion when they say 'Earth'.  Without more information, it has no impact.  Sometimes, you need context. 

Good point.  I kept wondering about that, too.  They said Earth was flash frozen but I don't recall if they explained why or why it was an avoided word.

[ZenMage]

Of the Hugo nominee stories, this one was the best.  Not a great story but good.  I am eagerly looking forward to the "normal" story stream coming back.  If these are the Hugo nominee's I think they need to start widening the search.

[qwints]

For instance, the main character's revulsion when they say 'Earth'.  Without more information, it has no impact.  Sometimes, you need context. 

Good point.  I kept wondering about that, too.  They said Earth was flash frozen but I don't recall if they explained why or why it was an avoided word.

Maybe the story is set in the Millennium after tomorrow...

[Chivalrybean]

Good points: The humor, the story was interesting, and I laughed when Steve narrated the bit as if talking what drinking coffee from a dispenser.

Bad point: The ending was rushed... it could have done with a slower pace at the ending so I had time to process it.

Overall: It started out being more favorive than the Hugo story about the robotic jewler on the beach (I forget the title), but after the end, I ended up not liking it as much, so the robot one is still my favorite.

Format comment: I liked it better when Steve talked more at the beginning and then more at the end. It might not be related, but I think he talks more that way, and he is someone interesting to listen too.

[DKT]

I think I'm going to have to listen to this one again.  I liked it, but for some reason, I wasn't able to focus too well. 

But I wanted to pipe up about the format comment.  I'm good either way you go, really, but I have never had a problem with the intros here.  In fact, I'd go as far to say as there something that immediately hooked me into the podcast initially.  I appreciate hearing what Steve has to say.  It's different than some of the Podcastle intros that have frustrated me a bit because Steve isn't telling me what the story is about, or important things to note about the setting/author before the story begins.  (If it sounds like I'm being harsh, that's not what I intend.  I love Podcastle already, and I think what Rachel is doing over there is great.  I just don't think the intros have hit their stride yet.)  When Steve does an intro on Escape Pod, I feel like I'm listening to a friend tell me about something interesting and, oh, by the way, there's this really cool story that kind of ties into it.  Or, in the case of geek dad intros, sometimes doesn't tie into it 

That said, I think the way Alasdair does the Pseudopod outros is perfect for Pseudopod, and perfect for Alasdair. 

[Chivalrybean]

I think I'm going to have to listen to this one again.  I liked it, but for some reason, I wasn't able to focus too well.  

I had that problem too, but I had chalked it up to listening while working my tedious job, but then, if something is interesting enough, I stay focused. The other day while listening to The Rookie by Scott Sigler, a whole 30 minutes went by and I hadn't eaven realised I had gone through a whole tray of parts! So, maybe this story did lose my interest here and there because if the way the story was told (not spoken, the story itself).

[Nobilis]

I felt that this story was less about people than it was about politics.  As such, it mostly bored me.

[Void Munashii]

I think I'm going to have to listen to this one again.  I liked it, but for some reason, I wasn't able to focus too well. 

  Oh good, so it's not just me. I thought it was just a combination of the fact that I was driving, and that I am a dimwit that made me get lost.

[DKT]

It's funny -- usually I listen to Escape Pod when I'm driving and I seem to be able to focus better on the stories that way (than when I'm working at my desk).  But this one, for some reason, I need another listen.

I liked what I got, and it definitely made me want to read more of the author.  But I need to try and listen again, give it all a little more focus.

[Jacob from Texas]

Yeah, a Poly-friendly story…hmmm drinking from nipple(s)…yeah more Jonathan Coulton…

Over all this story left my board-Neapolitan complex, feeling well hungry (hmmm nipples)

Thanks Steve, and please keep the Geek-Dad altro, if not intro.
Jacob from Texas

[JoeFitz]

This reminded me immediately of Heinlein and then Foundation. That was unfortunate, because I really wanted to like this story and it just doesn't hold a candle to the classics.

While I enjoyed the description of the cryogenic travel, I thought the 'nipple incident' was just odd.

The dialog with the ship's AI was particularly disappointing.

[CoachPaul]

I liked this story, it almost sounds like at the end that there either already is, or will be more stories about the main character, and I would surely read/listen to them.  I agree with the earlier posters, the main character did have that "Slippery Jim" feel to him.

CP

[Hatton]

Of the Hugos, I liked this one the least - too jumpy, too clean and too unpredictable.  I understand that this is supposed to be "short" but there were a lot of different times when I wanted to hear more detail, understand more of the concept than the usage.

And Steve, feel free to brag.

[eytanz]

I enjoyed this story a lot, though I agree with the sentiment above about the backstory feeling incomplete, and about the shifts in tone (it started up as slapstick, because a courtroom farce, then space opera, then slapstick again in the landing, then more serious again) - I've criticised stories before as sounding like the beginning or the ending of a longer story, but this one was more like a condensed longer story. In a novel, with time for character development and properly paced exposition, then the tone shifts could have been more organic as well. Here it just felt like a lot was crammed into a small space.

I also just failed to understand some basic plot points - if he could convert the long tube into a gun, why couldn't other civilisations do the same and strike back? And more importantly - if he was really from Earth, and had lived there before the cataclysm, how come he found landing on a planet so strange? I mean, it's been a long time, but he should have thought "wow, I didn't see an ocean since my childhood", not "I really couldn't believe it but there was a huge expanse of water nearby".

But overall I did like the story.

And I'd like to echo DKT's comments - EP's intros never bothered me, and this became very clear to me when I started hearing Podcastle's intros which do bother me. Steve has always been careful not to spoil stories and I always enjoy what he says, so I don't care if it comes before or after stories. In Podcastle, I want to hear what Rachel says but I want to hear it after the story, not before.

[Roland]

I agree with some of the previous replies, while it was enjoyable in the main, the end was very rushed and lots of details would benefit from being expanded on.
Tideline is still my favourite of the Hugos.

[Yossarian's grandson]

For instance, the main character's revulsion when they say 'Earth'.  Without more information, it has no impact.  Sometimes, you need context. 

Good point.  I kept wondering about that, too.  They said Earth was flash frozen but I don't recall if they explained why or why it was an avoided word.

Maybe the story is set in the Millennium after tomorrow...

What I got from the story was that 'Earth' represented everything that was bad about governments, national states and the arbitrary aggression that goes with them. Also, we destroyed the planet (and nearly the entire race) by unbalancing the climate. Humanity has since rejected that way of life (what we got in exchange is a bit vague, but more about that later) and over the course of time even the mention of the name Earth has become taboo.

I liked this story best of all the Hugo nominees. It has some weak points, the main of which for me were the switching between different tones (serious, humoristic) in a very short space of time and, as mentioned, the fact that the ending felt rushed and incomplete. I had no problem with the other worlds being conquered so easily. After all, the premise of the story is that, along with abandoning Earth, mankind has also abandoned the way of life that I described above.

That being said, this is the first EP episode I listened to twice (yes, me too). Because after the first listen, I felt like I hadn't picked up on half of all the world building going on in the background. The second listen seems to have cleared up some of that.

I really like the grand scope of this story. Man hasn't just reached out for the stars, but has also shed it's old forms of government and society. This feels real to me.

Too many SF pieces lean heavily on some kind of instant communication across the galaxy, to maintain unity between all the places where man has settled. But what if we don't discover some way to transmit fast over such distances? Humanity would drift apart and we would become alien to each other. I think this story captured this idea well.

Also, does anyone else sense some of the same themes as in Frank Herberts Dune? Mankind spread among the stars, withdrawn into new, semi-isolated communities. An old race, vital like primitive man used to be (at least in the eyes of future man) is unleashed by an outsider and proceeds to conquer the galaxy. There are at least a few similarities.

PS: about the intro/outro thing, how 'bout we give it a couple of episodes and then make up our minds?

 

[wintermute]

I liked the story overall, though I think it would have done better as a novel; something with more room for backstory and texture. Are there any more stories set in this world?

One question I do have, though, is about the Long Tubes. It seems to be pretty baldly stated that both Sol and Wolf 359 have precisely one Long Tube each, which means that each of those systems can only be connected to a single system. And you surely can't re-aim a Long Tube, because if you throw people at relativistic speed at another solar system, you need to be pretty confident that the breaking mechanism is going to be exactly in place in 10 or 50 years. So each connection is going to need its own dedicated Long Tube.

One Long Tube each isn't impossible, if these two worlds are on the extreme periphery of colonised space, which seems reasonable for Wolf 359, but not for Sol. But it seemed implicit that every star system had exactly one Long Tube, and as they need to be deployed in matched pairs (acceleration and deceleration for each trip), that means that travel to more than one other star is impossible.

Did I misinterpret this? I did enjoy the story, but that detail just sounds like something that should have been caught before the final draft. A simple insertion of the neighbouring system using their Long Tube #4 to launch the relatavistic weapons would have done the job easily enough.

[Rain]

I think i need someone to explain the story to me, something bad happend to Wolf 359 (we dont know what) a guy is sent down there to check it out, the inhabitants are apparantly bad off, one of them almost says the word Earth which confirmed how scary a place Wolf 359 was (we still dont know why) and then they all decide to conquer the universe, i kinda feels like there was a big part cut out of the middle, but there was enough interesting concepts for me to like it.

The Hugos have for me been a big disappointment this year, but out of all of them this was the least bad

[Chodon]

I think i need someone to explain the story to me, something bad happend to Wolf 359 (we dont know what) a guy is sent down there to check it out, the inhabitants are apparantly bad off, one of them almost says the word Earth which confirmed how scary a place Wolf 359 was (we still dont know why) and then they all decide to conquer the universe,

That's about what I got out of it.  It seems like it had a lot of unrealized potential.  I would like to hear more about this universe, but played out in a less rushed fashion.

[birdless]

I had to listen to this story twice, because I thought I missed something. That Something-that-I-didn't-actually-miss was: Why did this society who seemed to want their isolation and independence suddenly decide to become hostile and start an interstellar war? The young men of this New Earth thought they were going to have something valuable in the way of wisdom/philosophy to offer the Civil Worlds. I personally don't think "Wisdom, thy name is BFG" is what they had in mind. If it was, as Steve suggested, merely because they were bored, then there needed to be more evidence of that in the narrative, imho. Or was the writer's point that, if mankind had an opportunity to re-evolve, he would still take just as violent a path as the first time?

Also, I was very unclear on the clipper/box/ship references. I thought the box he was in was jettisoned from the clipper (he makes reference to his position relative to the clipper), but then after he landed, he returned to his "ship" which I thought meant the box, but then why change the reference when it had been "box" the whole time... anyway, I was just confused about that whole thing. I didn't try to get as technically accurate as Winter did (who made some very good points about a tube necessarily having to be dedicated to only one other tube), but it still left me unable to form a mental image.

And did he say "grow me from a bean" at 11:38-39? What the heck does that mean? Is that just some taken-for-granted, intentionally-unexplained technology from this future universe? That's cool if it is, I just wondered if I misunderstood or if I was missing something.

I did enjoy the humor, and I liked the writing despite the omissions of some important details, but those important details hurt the story enough to where it was just "pretty okay" for me.

I also liked the song at the end. Very Ben Folds-ish in the lyrics and hooks.

As to the "meta-chat," I'm new enough to remember my take on it when I first became a listener to now. When I first started listening, it was just to hear a story, so I was less interested in the intro and usually skipped the outro altogether. However, as I listened to the intros more, and the feedback caught up with the stories I was familiar with, I became more interested in both, and I eventually joined the discussion on the forums. Now it's become more of "being part of a community" than "listening to a story," and there've been a couple of times I've actually skipped ahead to listen to the feedback first. All that to say, I'm okay with however you decide to format the intros and outros, as long as you don't leave out anything you currently use now.

<edit: typo>

[wintermute]

And did he say "grow me from a bean" at 11:38-39? What the heck does that mean? Is that just some taken-for-granted, intentionally-unexplained technology from this future universe? That's cool if it is, I just wondered if I misunderstood or if I was missing something.

I think it's a reference to some kind of super cloning technology. The choice was between a) send a strand of his DNA (and a copy of his memories, which is mentioned in the intro) and rebuild him from that; and b) send his whole body and just thaw him out.

Option a is cheaper in terms of delta-V (but I'm guessing his mass isn't that significant, compared to the ship), but costs time at that far end, which was apparently not an acceptable trade-off.

Also, shipping him as a seed would raise the question of what happens to the rest of him. Disintegrated? Walking around with his debt paid by his unseen clone? Clones are messy, from a narrative point of view, when they're not the point of the story.

[birdless]

And did he say "grow me from a bean" at 11:38-39? What the heck does that mean? Is that just some taken-for-granted, intentionally-unexplained technology from this future universe? That's cool if it is, I just wondered if I misunderstood or if I was missing something.

I think it's a reference to some kind of super cloning technology. The choice was between a) send a strand of his DNA (and a copy of his memories, which is mentioned in the intro) and rebuild him from that; and b) send his whole body and just thaw him out.

Option a is cheaper in terms of delta-V (but I'm guessing his mass isn't that significant, compared to the ship), but costs time at that far end, which was apparently not an acceptable trade-off.

Also, shipping him as a seed would raise the question of what happens to the rest of him. Disintegrated? Walking around with his debt paid by his unseen clone? Clones are messy, from a narrative point of view, when they're not the point of the story.

Okay, thanks, that makes sense, but with the ethical questions you mentioned that beg to be addressed if "beaning" is cloning, I wonder why the author even mentioned it? Oh well.

[wintermute]

I really don't know. That's just what it sounded like to me.

[Rain]

And did he say "grow me from a bean" at 11:38-39? What the heck does that mean? Is that just some taken-for-granted, intentionally-unexplained technology from this future universe? That's cool if it is, I just wondered if I misunderstood or if I was missing something.

I think it's a reference to some kind of super cloning technology. The choice was between a) send a strand of his DNA (and a copy of his memories, which is mentioned in the intro) and rebuild him from that; and b) send his whole body and just thaw him out.

Option a is cheaper in terms of delta-V (but I'm guessing his mass isn't that significant, compared to the ship), but costs time at that far end, which was apparently not an acceptable trade-off.

Also, shipping him as a seed would raise the question of what happens to the rest of him. Disintegrated? Walking around with his debt paid by his unseen clone? Clones are messy, from a narrative point of view, when they're not the point of the story.

I just assumed it was a teleporter thing like you see with Star Trek

[JoeFitz]

I just assumed it was a teleporter thing like you see with Star Trek

I, too, assumed this to be the case. I took it to mean the energy to instantly transport the "bean" was off-set by the time to "grow" from said bean. I gathered that while a single strand of DNA was acceptable for transport, an entire adult human would be prohibitively expensive in energy terms.

[JoeFitz]

One question I do have, though, is about the Long Tubes. It seems to be pretty baldly stated that both Sol and Wolf 359 have precisely one Long Tube each, which means that each of those systems can only be connected to a single system. And you surely can't re-aim a Long Tube, because if you throw people at relativistic speed at another solar system, you need to be pretty confident that the breaking mechanism is going to be exactly in place in 10 or 50 years. So each connection is going to need its own dedicated Long Tube.

The Long Tubes can be "calibrated" which I took to be some sort of physical movement based on a set of known variables - probably some exotic quantum property of a particle beyond quartz watches. Tubes may even be required to be manufactured in one segment that is split - with one end sent on the slow way then calibrated to the original. I believe that the calibration for the Wolf 359 long tube had stopped, which was why no one was sending anything down the tube. I can imagine a fair number of things were sent down the tube before this problem was discovered.

I understood that many systems had more than one tube. Actually, it would be necessary to have at least two in all but the remote points. Otherwise you would not be able to travel anywhere but back the way you came. Also, I can't image that a tube would be confined to handling one piece of cargo at a time, either, or limited to receiving or sending. Otherwise, you would never know when it was safe to send your outgoing package for fear of hitting an incoming package. So I guess a tube would probably be twined - in and out, and be able to send another cargo once the first had moved ahead.

[JoeFitz]

On the humanity orbiting stars in habitats built from the raw materials of the planets, I have to wonder why there would be a need to travel interstellar distances? If a planet the size of earth can "sustain" 10 billion people, why would a solar system (many of which have Jupiter sized planets or larger) not be able to "sustain" many 10 billion habitats?

There was a mention of the habitable distances from a star. The volume of space in the "habitable zone" would seem to me to be incomprehensibly vast if all the raw material of a planet was converted to habitats. A 1 AU Dyson Sphere has 600 million times the surface area of earth.

The harder I think about this story, the less I like it. And I did want to.

[Void Munashii]

And did he say "grow me from a bean" at 11:38-39? What the heck does that mean? Is that just some taken-for-granted, intentionally-unexplained technology from this future universe? That's cool if it is, I just wondered if I misunderstood or if I was missing something.

I think it's a reference to some kind of super cloning technology. The choice was between a) send a strand of his DNA (and a copy of his memories, which is mentioned in the intro) and rebuild him from that; and b) send his whole body and just thaw him out.

Option a is cheaper in terms of delta-V (but I'm guessing his mass isn't that significant, compared to the ship), but costs time at that far end, which was apparently not an acceptable trade-off.

Also, shipping him as a seed would raise the question of what happens to the rest of him. Disintegrated? Walking around with his debt paid by his unseen clone? Clones are messy, from a narrative point of view, when they're not the point of the story.

Okay, thanks, that makes sense, but with the ethical questions you mentioned that beg to be addressed if "beaning" is cloning, I wonder why the author even mentioned it? Oh well.

  There seems to be a lot of that in this story. A number of things are just tossed out there like we are supposed to know what they are (references to beans, the Earth flash-freezing, "Earth" being a dirty word, etc). It seems like a story written for sci-fi geeks, or maybe I just like to make myself feel better by thinking that as I really didn't question a lot of it, but just came to my own conclusions.

[wintermute]

One question I do have, though, is about the Long Tubes. It seems to be pretty baldly stated that both Sol and Wolf 359 have precisely one Long Tube each, which means that each of those systems can only be connected to a single system. And you surely can't re-aim a Long Tube, because if you throw people at relativistic speed at another solar system, you need to be pretty confident that the breaking mechanism is going to be exactly in place in 10 or 50 years. So each connection is going to need its own dedicated Long Tube.

The Long Tubes can be "calibrated" which I took to be some sort of physical movement based on a set of known variables - probably some exotic quantum property of a particle beyond quartz watches. Tubes may even be required to be manufactured in one segment that is split - with one end sent on the slow way then calibrated to the original. I believe that the calibration for the Wolf 359 long tube had stopped, which was why no one was sending anything down the tube. I can imagine a fair number of things were sent down the tube before this problem was discovered.

Yes, the point is that you can't just decide that your Long Tube is going to point at Van Mayaans's Star instead of Proxima Centauri, this week. The calibration is to keep a single pair of tubes in sync.

I understood that many systems had more than one tube. Actually, it would be necessary to have at least two in all but the remote points. Otherwise you would not be able to travel anywhere but back the way you came. Also, I can't image that a tube would be confined to handling one piece of cargo at a time, either, or limited to receiving or sending. Otherwise, you would never know when it was safe to send your outgoing package for fear of hitting an incoming package. So I guess a tube would probably be twined - in and out, and be able to send another cargo once the first had moved ahead.

Yeah, that was my point. Except that I never picked up on anything that implied that any system had more than one tube. Yes, he travelled through systems, from A to B to C to D, but the mechanics of how this worked with the tubes was never covered; It seems to me that MacLeod was thinking in terms of one tube per system, which just doesn't work.

And as Sol System's tube was explicitly referred to in the singular (the Long Station is the gateway to the Long Tube), the alternative is that he intended to make Sol a distant outlier, on the very edge of known space, which seems less likely than having not thought through the tech properly.

[wintermute]

There seems to be a lot of that in this story. A number of things are just tossed out there like we are supposed to know what they are (references to beans, the Earth flash-freezing, "Earth" being a dirty word, etc). It seems like a story written for sci-fi geeks, or maybe I just like to make myself feel better by thinking that as I really didn't question a lot of it, but just came to my own conclusions.

As I say, I'd like to see this as a novel, or an extended series of short stories. This universe needs more exposition than we get in this story. I enjoyed it, I just don't think it can stand alone.

[ajames]

I've been enjoying this commentary. I'm in the "wait a minute, there seems to be a lot missing here" camp, though reading what some others have said makes me think this story is worth a second listen (or better, first read). As it was, after the first listen I thought the story was fun, but not terribly coherent.

Steve, don't change the intros or the outros! I look forward to those as much as I do to the stories, and while occasionally a story doesn't hit the mark for me, your intros and outros always do. Even if I don't always agree with everything said.  If it ain't broke, why fix it?? Anyway, do what you have to do, but that's my opinion.

[cuddlebug]

Steve, don't change the intros or the outros! I look forward to those as much as I do to the stories, and while occasionally a story doesn't hit the mark for me, your intros and outros always do. Even if I don't always agree with everything said.  If it ain't broke, why fix it?? Anyway, do what you have to do, but that's my opinion.

I absolutely agree with ajames, please don't change the intros/outros. As long as the intro does not give away too much info on the story it does not need to be moved. 

[wintermute]

I think there's a thread that needs to be moved off to it's own little playground, now...

Anyway, I can understand the point of moving the chatter from the intro to the outro; there are certainly people who want to hear the story and don't give a crap about what's going on in Steve's life. This is a sci-fi short story podcast, after all, and not Steve's blog. Making it easy for them to listen to the story and then press stop makes sense to me.

Having said that, I like everything that goes into the intro and the outro, and wouldn't object if both got longer. But therein lies the problem. Like everyone else whose opinions you're going to hear on this, I'm not just someone who listens to Escape Pod; I'm part of the the community. We're a self-selected group who made a point of listening to your question about what goes in the intro and the outro rather than skipping past it, and chose to come to the forum to register an opinion. The vast majority of listeners might do the former, but certainly won't bother with the latter.

So, in the spirit of speaking on behalf of the apathetic majority: The Story Is King. Get to the story quickly and with a minimum of fuss. Sponsorship details and the author bio ought to go before it, but I can't think of anything else that should. Feedback ought to be one of the first things after the story, and then Escape Artists news ("We're launching a bedtime story podcast, because geek dads don't have time to read every night!"), and then geek dad and other random stuff.

Having said that, I'm not sure I, personally, would appreciate the changes I'm suggesting; and given your massive audience, "why mess with success?" is clearly a tempting mantra. I like the extended intros. I like the random thoughts and rants. I especially like the geek dad intros. Moving too much of this from the intro to the outro would change the balance, and make it feel wrong. But probably only for a couple of weeks, and then I'd get used to it again.

So, yeah. I'm ambivalent. I'd like to see things stay as they are, but I think it makes sense to trim down the intro. Just make sure you expand the outro equally.

[stePH]

This story was ummm ok!

The idea of a rouge world coming back and taking over was pretty interesting.  It reminded me a bit of the foundation series.  I personally think that with time dilation of near light travel that this is the kind of thing that could happen if you spread out too much.  Humans being the war like people that we are, I can see it happening to us....

... On that note I am a sucker for grand scale views of the future.    See Clarke, Herbert, Roddenberry, Asimov and you will find some of my favorite authors.

How about Cherryh?  There's another 'verse with far-flung humanity split into three distinct cultures.

[birdless]

I think there's a thread that needs to be moved off to it's own little playground, now...

Yeah, I kept expecting to see this in a Mod-started discussion in Metachat rather than here. Not that it makes much difference to me, either way.

[DKT]

The intros usually last about, what?  Three minutes here?  That doesn't seem too long to me.  If it was twice that long, I might be getting antsy, but I'm always bummed when the outro is finished.

[DKT]

I listened to this one again this morning.  I still liked it, and I don't feel like I missed the threads connecting things before, but there was something funky about it.  There was a lot of stuff I liked.  The opening, where the smart clothes were darting off him, and the woman who caught him was covered by some of them, I thought was pretty funny. 

The ending felt like, BAM, though. A lot of stuff to take in. 

[goatkeeper]

Now that's what I call a Hugo winning story.

[contra]

This is my fav Hugo story, I think....  A agree with other people that the ending felt rushed, but I think that could be deliberate to show that non mod humans do everything fast and rush; while everyone else takes their time, and thinks everything through for far too long.  Its hard enough to get something through a countries government... I never cease to be amazed that the UN come to an arrangement at all.... I can't imagine that intergalactic politics may be like...

I liked the robot; it wasn't simply plotonium... it was actually added something to the story rather of just being a means to an end. 

I liked the physics of it.  i'ver seen this done in more and more places... we like to think that massive distances will be made small over time... but this is not always the case.  50 years later we still use the same method to get to space; while we are getting a lot closer to others, we still using massive rocket boosters... and we are not currently living on the moon.  If the universe won't adapt to our timeframe... we may have to adapt to its.  Its probably interesting that I'm reading 'Strata' by Pratchett as the time of listening to this... very similar in some ways; and it could almost be the same universe (like him fearing the ship will burn up on entry; because once you have spaceflight there are very different technical issues in making an atmosphere craft, near planet and deep space craft.  Once the ability to create them are in place, dling the 3 seperatly would make more sense, explained in detail in Strata... not in this story)

The idea of implanted memories interested me, especially as a propaganda tool for political control.  Make everyone experiance it from a famour leaders point of view; and everyone understands what is true and won't question it. 

I could go on.  just all the elements came together for me.  It all clicked and worked.  The wonder.  The strangeness we find normal.  the normality we find strange.  The morals and expectations.  I just liked it all.

so for me the Hugo is between this and Tideline. hmmm
I can't decide.   This... but not by much... and may be cause I listened to this today.

Ok the intro and outtro...
I like shorter intro's.  for one reason.  I don't want to know what I'm about to feel.  Afterwards I'm fine to hear about Steve and how it relates to his life or how he's feeling... but donig it before gives me preconcieved ideas, which I prefer not to have.  Its just a personal thing.   I have no great issue if the longer intro stays; I still enjoy the stroy.  But I prefer to hear it without bias or expectation. Its not often I would get it, but sometimes; just sometimes.

At any rate, as ever I love this, keep it up.

[Listener]

This one seems to me to be the "hey, let's seem all environmentally conscious by nominating a story that covers the destruction of Ea*COUGHCOUGHCOUGH*".  It was good, and I enjoyed it, but it had a flaw that I (as someone else noted) associate with Heinlein:  it wrapped up FAST.  I was getting all into it and then it was over.

The world-building and relativistic travel was a nice touch, and when the ship tells the guy (did we ever hear his name?) about the years it will take to get answers, that was cool.

The way the guy built up New Earth in the time it took to get answers from the Civil Societies was reminiscent of Harry Turtledove's "Worldwar", and the way the Race thought that, 800 years on, humans would still be wearing plate mail and riding horses.

So... not bad, not great.

[goatkeeper]

The way the guy built up New Earth in the time it took to get answers from the Civil Societies was reminiscent of Harry Turtledove's "Worldwar", and the way the Race thought that, 800 years on, humans would still be wearing plate mail and riding horses.

Good reference- I can totally see that.
Or Jason Worthing rebuilding planets and other events in the Worthing Saga.

[Windup]

As for the story, I'm definitely a member of the "WTF?" response group when it comes to the ending.  I obviously missed something, because to me there was no logical explanation for how this group went from sitting in the hulks of wrecked space habitats with rotting teeth to interstellar overlords in the space of two generations.  I kept meaning to go back and listen again, but iTunes Podcast auto-delete ate it, and in the end, I decided I just didn't care enough to fish it out again.

Some of the details were cool -- I liked the woman at the jewelry shop "pulling a Norton" on the main character.  And the ship's grim determination to finish its mission of delivering him to the surface.  Like some others, I was also pleased to see someone deal with the idea that FTL drive may never be possible, so we're going to need some sort of Plan B to explore interstellar space. 

As for the into/outro bit, I like most of the material that's there, and it makes little or no difference to me if it's in the intro or the outro.  I usually listen while exercising or cleaning, so I run straight through my playlist once I start, unless something is truly awful, in which case it just gets skipped.  Never happened to Escape Pod, but lately I've been cutting off the Cato Daily Podcast once I know where their argument is headed.  That seems to take less time all the time...

Anyway, that's my response... 

[birdless]

Thanks, Windup, I'm glad someone else has a problem with that. And unless I missed it on listening to it twice, you didn't miss anything in your single listen. They went from forward looking philosophers to forward looking warlords without any explanation for the massive change in outlook.

[contra]

Oh, an addition, as a Scottish person I have to criticize Steve. Sorry.

Edinburg?  Really. Edinburg appears to be in Texas...

While the Edinburgh is the capital city of Scotland. 

Minor point really... >_>  but still...   its not exactly a small unknown city...

[Biscuit]

Hmmm. Sitting on the fence about this one.

Ponderous world/galaxy building. Lots of "getting there". Minute detail. A couple of paragraphs of real time action.

Not saying that I hated it, but the multiple personalities of the MC combined with the intricate (nicely done) writing made it difficult to really pick out what the story was saying.

The only thing I could really take from it was "Human Beings are doomed to repeat themselves".

[Tango Alpha Delta]

Oh, an addition, as a Scottish person I have to criticize Steve. Sorry.

Edinburg?  Really. Edinburg appears to be in Texas...

While the Edinburgh is the capital city of Scotland. 

Minor point really... >_>  but still...   its not exactly a small unknown city...

Yes, REALLY, Steve... English is a phonetic language, and "Edinburgh" is so obviously pronounced "Ed-in-bra"!  How could you get THAT wrong?

Oh... wait... it's NOT a phonetic language?  Maybe that would explain it. 

[wintermute]

Edin-burra

[Anarkey]

I liked this story well enough, and I didn't seem to have the tone issues everyone else is complaining about (that is, I recognized a variance in tone, but it didn't negatively affect my enjoyment of the story), but there is something I'm wondering about: 

was that whole I'm wondering if I'm remembering what I'm remembering or I just think I'm remembering what never really happened that I remember spiel at the beginning one of them guns that didn't go off or did I miss some resolution?  When I heard it I was all WTF, 'it was only a dream' but at the beginning instead of the end?  How does that make it better?  Only Carroll gets away with that!

[Tango Alpha Delta]

Edin-burra

That's not how they said it in Glasgow! 

[wintermute]

Edin-burra

That's not how they said it in Glasgow! 

You're going to trust a Glaswegian on a matter of pronunciation? Really?

I mean, really?

[Tango Alpha Delta]

Edin-burra

That's not how they said it in Glasgow! 

You're going to trust a Glaswegian on a matter of pronunciation? Really?

I mean, really?

Nope... I'm going to use the classic UK defensive manoeuvre (sp?) of singling out a third group that you and I can mutually tease in order to deflect from our original "conflict".  It's the old, "Sure, you and I have differences, but at least we're not French!" technique! 

[DKT]

was that whole I'm wondering if I'm remembering what I'm remembering or I just think I'm remembering what never really happened that I remember spiel at the beginning one of them guns that didn't go off or did I miss some resolution?  When I heard it I was all WTF, 'it was only a dream' but at the beginning instead of the end?  How does that make it better?  Only Carroll gets away with that!

That really stood out to me on the second listen.  At first, I thought it might explain some of the inconsistencies I thought I heard the first time, but no, from what I can tell, it didn't have anything to do with that.  Then I started to wonder if this character appeared in other stories written by the author, or perhaps a novel.  I'm still not sure, though.

[Loz]

I found it difficult to care about this story to be honest, everything up to the last few minutes seemed as though it were scene-setting for the story and then it went into highlights from what the rest of the story would be if there's space. Steve, are you sure this was a Hugo Nominee and not an advert for Macleod's next book?

Still, I seem to recall that in previous years there's always been at least one story that has baffled me as to how and why it's considered worthy of nomination and that's this story this year.

[Russell Nash]

It was an enjoyable listen.  Many of my praises and complaints were already covered, so I'll just add one thing.

SPACE ELEVATOR!!!!

It just needs to be in more stories.


Edit: tupo

[Yossarian's grandson]

It was an enjoyable listen.  Many of my prasies and complaints were already covered, so I'll just add one thing.

SPACE ELEVATOR!!!!

It just needs to be in more stories.

You gotta love those things. Man, I hope we get around to building one in my lifetime. Going...up!

(hate to get stuck halfway, though. The climb down would be a real hassle)

[Darwinist]

It was an enjoyable listen.  Many of my prasies and complaints were already covered, so I'll just add one thing.

SPACE ELEVATOR!!!!

It just needs to be in more stories.

You gotta love those things. Man, I hope we get around to building one in my lifetime. Going...up!

(hate to get stuck halfway, though. The climb down would be a real hassle)

No problem.  You can skydive from the stratosphere like this guy..............DOH!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,358336,00.html

[TwangCat]

I felt so strongly about this episode I finally had to comment.  My only response upon finishing it was 'that was freakin' awsome!'  Not exceedingly eloquent I'll grant but I was that impressed.  I can't describe how much I want to know the rest of this guys life story.  Thank you for sharing this gem with us.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

I had missed a number of posts in this thread at some point, and just happened to be scrolling back down through it this morning; I noticed a few folks were thrown by what I think of as Mr. MacLeod's "writing attitude".  Rain said it seemed like a lot was left out of the middle, and a few other people seemed to feel that they had missed something.

When I first tried to tackle The Cassinni Division, I was pretty lost, too.  But the problem was that so much was hidden within subtle subtext and clues within the characters' actions and reactions - I had to adjust how I read him in order to catch what was motivating the characters.  His Wikipedia article states "He is known for his constant in-joking and punning on the intersection between socialist ideologies and computer programming, as well as other fields."

On the downside, it's really hard to read this guy if you aren't already fairly well-read on your socialist ideology and computer programming; but if you're up to the challenge, you can learn a lot about those things by seeing how the characters interact and react to each other.  That can be annoying if you're looking for a light romp through space, but it can be extremely gratifying when you get the hang of how these characters think.  I know I learned a lot about my own assumptions about politics and capitalism by digging into Mr. MacLeod's work.

I'm sure that doesn't change anyone's opinion of this story (if you got it, you probably liked it; if not, well...), but I hope those of you that didn't like it can understand what the appeal is for the rest of us.  Does that help?

[Anarkey]

I'm sure that doesn't change anyone's opinion of this story (if you got it, you probably liked it; if not, well...), but I hope those of you that didn't like it can understand what the appeal is for the rest of us.  Does that help?

No, it doesn't.  Is the memory spiel a reference to some socialist or computer programmer?  Is it a joke?

[lieffeil]

For some reason, this one just couldn't hold my attention. I tried to listen to it twice. It may have been that I was on the bus, I don't know. I'll have to try it again at a later date.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

I'm sure that doesn't change anyone's opinion of this story (if you got it, you probably liked it; if not, well...), but I hope those of you that didn't like it can understand what the appeal is for the rest of us.  Does that help?

No, it doesn't.  Is the memory spiel a reference to some socialist or computer programmer?  Is it a joke?

I was hoping someone else had an answer... I miss a lot in MacLeod's stories because I just don't catch the references, to be honest.  He's one of the few writers that does that to me.  :$

[errant371]

I felt that this story was less about people than it was about politics.  As such, it mostly bored me.

Then you will probably want to stay away from Ken MacLeod.  Finding a more "political" S/F writer would be difficult; almost all of his stories revolve around politics and social upheaval.  He is, however, very well regarded in Britain and Canada.  This is probably one of his weaker stories (though I don't find any of MacLeod's work all that weak) but it does have a tangental connection to his novel Learning the World, since the future he describes here is very, very similar to that found in the novel.

[Unblinking]

I wish I had something more substantive to say about this one, but I couldn't get into this one, not even in the slightest.  The space-tube stuff was kind of interesting, but nothing really compelled me to care what happened next, so I gave up mid-story.