Author Topic: Women in SF fandom/girl geekdom  (Read 12953 times)

Heradel

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on: May 20, 2008, 02:09:52 AM
We've had some conversations in other threads about female geekdom/female SF fans and what they experience, so I figured I'd create a central topic for it, and start it off with this editorial by the (female) Editor of io9:

Quote from: Annalee Newitz
I love when clueless humans tell me to my face that women don't like science fiction. Usually they tell me this at a science fiction convention, after we have talked about scifi for an hour and I have said that I edit a science fiction blog. These humans have an amazing ability to not believe their eyes, which is the only way I can explain what's happening when somebody says to my face that women like me don't exist. And unfortunately, the SciFi Channel seems to have the same problem: There's an article in the New York Times today about how the channel boosted its ratings among women by de-emphasizing spaceships in Battlestar Galactica ads and airing supernatural horror movies. I cannot believe the stupidity here.

<snip, there's a lot more, read it>

Being male, I can't really speak to the experience, except to say that my girlfriend (a theater major who is most definitely not an SF person by nature) is watching BS:G next to me right now and has gone through the first two seasons in two weeks, so I guess she likes it.

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wherethewild

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Reply #1 on: May 21, 2008, 03:39:59 PM
Apparently no-one wants to bite.  :D (I was really looking for an emoticon with big sharp teeth here)

Disclaimer: My opinion only, and I'm not someone who goes to Cons so I have only limited exposure to really hardcore fans of either gender.

Generally I've found scifi guys more than thrilled to have a chick that will talk whizz-bang-geek-stuff with them. The primary exceptions in my limited experience are the real hardcore hard scifi fans, who do tend to be dismissive of women fans. Then I usually tell them to refer to me as Doctor from now on, blow 'em off and talk to more interesting people. Because I can. One of the best uses of my degree, in my opinion.

So: Does sexism exist in the world of scifi? Yep. Just as it exists in the world of science, accountancy and government postal workers. Is it a problem? I would say to the same extent as in any other walk of life. I don't find it more prevalent in the scifi community than anywhere else, but then I'm not trying to make a career here etc, so I see only surface stuff. Get me on sexism in academia though and I'm all over that one.

Non-geek guys don't get scifi whether its coming from a girl or a guy fan, so they don't count.

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scottjanssens

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Reply #2 on: May 29, 2008, 02:59:35 PM
Anyone who thinks women don't like sf is clearly suffering from tunnel vision and should expand their horizons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_science_fiction_authors




corporatewhore

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Reply #3 on: June 02, 2008, 12:04:39 AM
So I read the original article and the rant

Quote
Domestically, the channel has been riding original hits like “Battlestar Galactica” and the reality show “Ghost Hunters,” both No. 1 among cable networks on their nights, Friday and Wednesday, respectively, in April in the 25-to-54 demographic. The network has drawn more women by making subtle tweaks to marketing and programming. In marketing materials for “Battlestar Galactica,” for example, there are no spaceships, and the story lines try to create more of a balance between action and emotion.

Quote
OK, so let me get this straight. A woman (Bonnie Hammer, quoted above) ran the Sci Fi Channel for several years. Octavia Butler (yes, a woman) won a MacArthur genius grant for her science fiction novels, and many of the editors at scifi mega-publisher Tor are women. All of io9's editors are women. A woman (hi Bonniegrrl!) runs StarWars.com. But women aren't interested in science fiction? You need to drain the spaceships out of BSG to attract women?

I don't get it.

It doesn't state that NO WOMEN LIKE SCIENCE FICTION. It is simply stating that women are in the minority. I don't see what the big deal is about the Times article, or why there is a rant. So they attracted women by reducing the amount of spaceships in battlestar galactica... why is that bothering the ranter? I mean, whether the person ranting wants to admit it or not, it was working.

Anyone making generic statements like 'women don't enjoy sf' are out of the loop. However, women who do enjoy sf remain in the minority and more work needs to be done to encourage all types of people to join in this niche.



Troo

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Reply #4 on: June 05, 2008, 04:20:34 PM
*Puts hand up* Female SF/F/H editor/writer/publisher here.

I suspect the real "problem" is that women don't tend to bang on about genre stuff to their female friends, because 90% of female friends (let's face it) stare at you blankly if you're not talking about shoes, make-up, dresses, or Big Brother. So while there are just as many female genre freaks as there are male, we tend to shut up about it in polite society rather than get ostracised then interrogated about when we're going to grow up and have babies  ;D

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cuddlebug

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Reply #5 on: June 05, 2008, 04:30:51 PM
*Puts hand up* Female SF/F/H editor/writer/publisher here.

I suspect the real "problem" is that women don't tend to bang on about genre stuff to their female friends, because 90% of female friends (let's face it) stare at you blankly if you're not talking about shoes, make-up, dresses, or Big Brother. So while there are just as many female genre freaks as there are male, we tend to shut up about it in polite society rather than get ostracised then interrogated about when we're going to grow up and have babies  ;D

OMG, that is so true. My sentiments exactly. Are you sure we are not the same person? Well, not that I am an editor, but we seem to have the same friends.

Actually, I have pissed off quite a few of my female friends sometimes, when I get angry after they ignore what I have said, whether something relating to SF or something political, something to do with religion etc. What is it with some women, who just go straight back to discussing the kind of outfit they will buy for that party on Saturday, right after I discussed a hypothesis about 'the end of the world as we know it'.





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Reply #6 on: June 05, 2008, 05:01:05 PM
*Puts hand up* Female SF/F/H editor/writer/publisher here.

I suspect the real "problem" is that women don't tend to bang on about genre stuff to their female friends, because 90% of female friends (let's face it) stare at you blankly if you're not talking about shoes, make-up, dresses, or Big Brother. So while there are just as many female genre freaks as there are male, we tend to shut up about it in polite society rather than get ostracised then interrogated about when we're going to grow up and have babies  ;D

True story:  I attended a barbeque around five years ago for Fourth of July.  Lots of different types of people were present, none of whom I would call especially geeky or into fandom.  I was inside, with a mixed gender crowd, and the hosts had thrown up one of the Lord of the Rings movies.  I was thoroughly enjoying myself, and my daughter (then a toddler) was playing on the floor.  It became grill time, and the guys all vacated the premises to assist and adjudicate the grilling process.  Toddlers and hot grills don't mix, but as soon as the males vacated, the hostess said "Thank god, I'm so tired of watching this crap," ejected the LoTR movies and put in, I kid you not, some romantic comedy with JLo in it.  I was horrified.  And trapped.  WTF?  I was WATCHING Aragorn if you don't mind, ovaries notwithstanding.  She just assumed that no one would have preferred LoTR over J-Lo unless they were male.  It was stereotyping bordering on the bizarre.

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stePH

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Reply #7 on: June 05, 2008, 05:43:02 PM
True story:  I attended a barbeque around five years ago for Fourth of July.  Lots of different types of people were present, none of whom I would call especially geeky or into fandom.  I was inside, with a mixed gender crowd, and the hosts had thrown up one of the Lord of the Rings movies.  I was thoroughly enjoying myself, and my daughter (then a toddler) was playing on the floor.  It became grill time, and the guys all vacated the premises to assist and adjudicate the grilling process.  Toddlers and hot grills don't mix, but as soon as the males vacated, the hostess said "Thank god, I'm so tired of watching this crap," ejected the LoTR movies and put in, I kid you not, some romantic comedy with JLo in it.  I was horrified.  And trapped.  WTF?  I was WATCHING Aragorn if you don't mind, ovaries notwithstanding.  She just assumed that no one would have preferred LoTR over J-Lo unless they were male.  It was stereotyping bordering on the bizarre.

That was the moment to say "Hey, I was watching that!"  Why didn't you?

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lieffeil

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Reply #8 on: June 05, 2008, 06:44:08 PM
Personally, I don't mind being a minority. It's not like the majority of guys who like SF are beating on women, they tend to be a rather excellent lot. I think it's partially because (and this applies to all SF fans) they generally use their spare time to think about the state of the universe. And let's face it, there are more important things to worry about.
Being the minority in a minority community is less alienating than it seems. On the internet, gender just doesn't matter the same way. It's about what you have to say, not what you look like.

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stePH

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Reply #9 on: June 05, 2008, 06:55:44 PM
On the internet, gender just doesn't matter the same way. It's about what you have to say, not what you look like.

I look exactly like Eeyore and if you don't believe me I'm gonna kick your ass and take your coat.

... uh, sorry ... what was the question again?

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wintermute

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Reply #10 on: June 05, 2008, 07:06:48 PM
I look exactly like Eeyore and if you don't believe me I'm gonna kick your ass and take your coat.

Well, exactly like him, except for being the wrong colour.

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Reply #11 on: June 05, 2008, 10:21:44 PM
On the internet, gender just doesn't matter the same way. It's about what you have to say, not what you look like.

I look exactly like Eeyore and if you don't believe me I'm gonna kick your ass and take your coat.

... uh, sorry ... what was the question again?

So...you're an ass-kicking ass?


stePH

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Reply #12 on: June 05, 2008, 10:47:33 PM
So...you're an ass-kicking ass?

Well, some would tell you that I'm an ass, at any rate  ;)

But actually, I was confused and got my thoughts crossed up with another post.

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Anarkey

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Reply #13 on: June 06, 2008, 12:30:11 AM
That was the moment to say "Hey, I was watching that!"  Why didn't you?

Because the hostess so obviously had hated it from the get-go (something I didn't realize until the guys left the room and she said so).  As much as I didn't want to sit through a 90 minute romantic comedy, it was not important enough an issue to force others to watch something they didn't care for.  I was in the minority.  I ceded.  It's not like I don't own my own copies of LoTR that I can watch whenever the mood strikes me.  It's not like I don't know how it ends.  I don't have to shove it down anyone's throat, specially in their own house.  Readers of this forum will be shocked! and surprised! to find that I can occasionally muster some basic politeness and, once in a great while, consideration of others. 

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Troo

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Reply #14 on: June 06, 2008, 09:46:32 AM
It gets worse when you combine geekery with a career in I.T. Half the male engineers of the world are stunned you can understand TCP/IP subnets, and the other half stop talking geek galk as soon as you arrive because they don't want to bore you. At least the second half are rather sweet  ;D

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Anarkey

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Reply #15 on: June 06, 2008, 11:44:57 AM
It gets worse when you combine geekery with a career in I.T. Half the male engineers of the world are stunned you can understand TCP/IP subnets, and the other half stop talking geek galk as soon as you arrive because they don't want to bore you. At least the second half are rather sweet  ;D

Indeed.  The last time I went to buy my new Mac (ok, so maybe it's my fault for buying a Mac, but but but Unix underneath!) the sales guy treated me in classic car dealer form.  First he focused in on my husband and ignored me.  When my husband told him multiple times he was not the one buying and the guy needed to be talking to me the guy looked completely thrown off.  When he finally deigned to address himself to me directly, and I started in on my questions, turns out he couldn't answer any of them, except for to handwave and say, oh, I'm sure that won't be a problem.  (I liked my old iBook, and I was mistrustful of the new MacBooks for several hardware reasons and I wanted to hash them out with someone).  He could tell me plenty about the different colors between Macs though! WTG, Apple, your hip, young salespeople are as sexist and stupid as 50s car dealers.

Poor boy didn't make his sale.  I bought online.  A computer won't treat me like I have an empty little head just because of my uterus.

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eytanz

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Reply #16 on: June 06, 2008, 12:34:14 PM
It gets worse when you combine geekery with a career in I.T. Half the male engineers of the world are stunned you can understand TCP/IP subnets, and the other half stop talking geek galk as soon as you arrive because they don't want to bore you. At least the second half are rather sweet  ;D

Indeed.  The last time I went to buy my new Mac (ok, so maybe it's my fault for buying a Mac, but but but Unix underneath!) the sales guy treated me in classic car dealer form.  First he focused in on my husband and ignored me.  When my husband told him multiple times he was not the one buying and the guy needed to be talking to me the guy looked completely thrown off.  When he finally deigned to address himself to me directly, and I started in on my questions, turns out he couldn't answer any of them, except for to handwave and say, oh, I'm sure that won't be a problem.  (I liked my old iBook, and I was mistrustful of the new MacBooks for several hardware reasons and I wanted to hash them out with someone).  He could tell me plenty about the different colors between Macs though! WTG, Apple, your hip, young salespeople are as sexist and stupid as 50s car dealers.

Poor boy didn't make his sale.  I bought online.  A computer won't treat me like I have an empty little head just because of my uterus.

If it's any consolation, that's how I'm treated (except for the husband part) every time I'm in an apple store, and I think I'm pretty easily identifiable as male, what with the bald head and the stubble.



wintermute

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Reply #17 on: June 06, 2008, 12:50:25 PM
Huh. I thought Apple stores had a reputation for having staff who knew what they were talking about.

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Anarkey

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Reply #18 on: June 06, 2008, 12:51:05 PM
If it's any consolation, that's how I'm treated (except for the husband part) every time I'm in an apple store, and I think I'm pretty easily identifiable as male, what with the bald head and the stubble.

Right.  I wasn't assuming that the guy was pretending not to know anything about his hardware.  So I assume everyone else also gets the 'but look at the pretty colors!' spiel.  That in itself is annoying, but it only takes the cake if on top of that, the guy is going to at first pretend you don't exist because you're a girl and can't possibly want to buy a computer.

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Anarkey

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Reply #19 on: June 06, 2008, 12:56:46 PM
Huh. I thought Apple stores had a reputation for having staff who knew what they were talking about.

I've had favorable experiences with their 'geniuses', but their regular sales people suck, at least within my experience, so maybe it's just my local stores?

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eytanz

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Reply #20 on: June 06, 2008, 01:07:47 PM
Huh. I thought Apple stores had a reputation for having staff who knew what they were talking about.

My experience is that that staff may know what you're talking about, but they certainly assume I don't. When I was laptop hunting last year, I was actually considering buying a Mac, and I went to the Apple store on Prince Street (in NYC) and inquired about Macbooks from several salespeople. I got a ton of pre-packaged marketing hype, but a total refusal/inability to tell me what the laptop was capable of doing beyond running the software sold on the next aisle down. So I bought a Lenovo Thinkpad instead. (The problem, I think, is that most Apple salespeople assume that people interested in Macs must have already decided that if they get a computer, it imust be a Mac, and now it's just a matter of A - whether to buy anytihng at all, and B - If so, which model; and find it hard to conceive of a customer who wants a laptop and will go for either a Mac or a Windows system based on some other criteria).
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 01:11:57 PM by eytanz »



eytanz

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Reply #21 on: June 06, 2008, 01:50:01 PM
And in an attempt to un-hijack the conversation - obviously, being male, I'm not on the receiving end of a lot of the attitudes women SF fans have to face. And I try to avoid perpetuating them myself. But there's another issue I noticed which is attitudes among women who are not part of the fandom. I have a very good friend of mine, who I've known for over 15 years, who embodies this very clearly - she and I have been swapping book recommendations for as long as I've known her, but she has always utterly refused to even consider anything that's SF or fantasy. Her husband reads a lot of SF, but she doesn't touch them. It could be that she's simply not a fan, but I've heard her labelling an interest in SF/fantasy as masculine, and I'm pretty sure that's why she never gave it a chance.

Anyway, she is a relatively extreme example, but, growing up, whenever I tried talking about an SF book that I liked to my female friends, they would normally be disinterested and/or explicitly tell me that being women they are not into that sort of stuff. While my male friends - genre fans or not - at least listened. Now, there were also exceptions to this - I had a friend whose older sister was a huge SF fan and quite a few of the books I've read in my teens came from her - but assuming this was a somewhat typical situation I can see why a lot of people will grow up assuming that SF lies firmly on one side of the gender divide.



stePH

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Reply #22 on: June 06, 2008, 08:01:39 PM
That was the moment to say "Hey, I was watching that!"  Why didn't you?

Because the hostess so obviously had hated it from the get-go (something I didn't realize until the guys left the room and she said so).  As much as I didn't want to sit through a 90 minute romantic comedy, it was not important enough an issue to force others to watch something they didn't care for.  I was in the minority.  I ceded.  It's not like I don't own my own copies of LoTR that I can watch whenever the mood strikes me.  It's not like I don't know how it ends.  I don't have to shove it down anyone's throat, specially in their own house.  Readers of this forum will be shocked! and surprised! to find that I can occasionally muster some basic politeness and, once in a great while, consideration of others. 

But it was a "teachable moment" since as you say,
Quote
She just assumed that no one would have preferred LoTR over J-Lo unless they were male.  It was stereotyping bordering on the bizarre.

You could have said "I was watching that" without insisting that it continue, right?

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Anarkey

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Reply #23 on: June 06, 2008, 09:20:00 PM
But it was a "teachable moment" since as you say,
Quote
She just assumed that no one would have preferred LoTR over J-Lo unless they were male.  It was stereotyping bordering on the bizarre.

Perhaps for you it would have been a teachable moment.  For me it was not.  It takes more hubris than I have to approach interactions with my friends and acquaintances as if I am some bodhisattva hanging around to enlighten lesser beings.  I'm not in the business of teaching my adult friends lessons.  For one thing, I am not convinced an object lesson of that type ever works to dispel stereotypes (see prior forum threads on confirmation bias for one of the reasons why), specially when it runs the risk of being more easily perceived (and dismissed) as rudeness or contrariness.  Even if such a ploy did work, it's a fundamental part of my life's work to negotiate the beam/speck thing, and this purported 'teachable moment' as you would have played it pretty much flies in the face of that.  So no. 

edited to make quotes do the right thing.

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Anarkey

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Reply #24 on: June 06, 2008, 09:23:27 PM
And in an attempt to un-hijack the conversation - obviously, being male, I'm not on the receiving end of a lot of the attitudes women SF fans have to face. And I try to avoid perpetuating them myself. But there's another issue I noticed which is attitudes among women who are not part of the fandom. I have a very good friend of mine, who I've known for over 15 years, who embodies this very clearly - she and I have been swapping book recommendations for as long as I've known her, but she has always utterly refused to even consider anything that's SF or fantasy. Her husband reads a lot of SF, but she doesn't touch them. It could be that she's simply not a fan, but I've heard her labelling an interest in SF/fantasy as masculine, and I'm pretty sure that's why she never gave it a chance.

If you can bear a recommendation, the next time you see this woman put a copy of Elizabeth Bear's Carnival in her hands.  Don't recommend, just give it to her.  I think it's the sort of book that can win non-SF readers over.

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« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 07:58:34 PM by Heradel »

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