EP159: Elites

[Russell Nash]

EP159: Elites

By Kristine Kathryn Rusch.
Read by Máia Whitaker (of KnitWitch’s SciFi/Fantasy Zone and Superior Audioworks).
First appeared in Women of War, ed. Tanya Huff & Alexander Potter.

I could’ve followed the sounds. The closer I get, the louder voices grow—yelling obscenities, cheering, clapping in approval.

These women love fights.

I used to let them do it too, without interference, until the repair bills got too much. Then the House shrink told me about the added toll of repeated trauma—the fights would often replicate something that happened Out There—and I realized that no matter how much steam got blown off, the fights weren’t worth the expense.

Still, I wished for those old days sometimes.

Rated R. Contains violence, profanity, and strong themes of war and psychological trauma.


Referenced Sites:
“Recovering Apollo 8″ by Kristine Kathryn Rusch
7th Son: OBSIDIAN, ed. J.C. Hutchins



Listen to this week’s Escape Pod!

[Listener]

This is how accents should be done -- strongly enough to flavor the story, but not so strong that they steamroll it.  Good reading.

I don't really like Kristine Kathryn Rusch as a writer, though.  She lost me when she was doing Star Trek, and I didn't care for her last EP story either.  This particular one had way too much exposition, and because of that, it didn't lend itself much to audio.  The story was fine; not too much world-building, but in a story like this you don't need it.  I did like the way she built the world of the house.

I didn't really care deeply about Rowena or Zipper (?) or really any of the other characters in any way other than "oh, well, that sucks that they all have PTSD, and good for Rowena for trying to help them." 

Rusch is good at descriptions, and honestly, maybe I don't care so much for her writing because I see my own style in it from time to time.  I tend to digress using parenthetical phrases.

The ending didn't feel like much of one.  It's like, "okay, well, why don't you leave so we can just go to the government and see what they can do?"  I understood what was being said, but it didn't resonate at all.  I didn't feel bad for Rowena that she had to leave, and I didn't feel bad for the other women in the house that Carla and Amber would now most likely go to the government and share Rowena's methods with them.

So, good reading, decent story, meh ending.

[DKT]

Is there anyone else out there who is completely convinced that Maia Whitaker could kick your ass?  Between this story and the Failed Cities Monologues (I know she's done others, too, but she's such a badass in both those stories), I'm pretty sure she could kick mine.  Even if it just meant giving me a stern talking to. 

I liked this story.  It's one of those that I probably wouldn't have read on my own, but I dug it anyway.  The ending worked for me.  Actually, I thought it was nice arc.  Rowena started the story trying to help others, and in the end, the others were trying to help her.  So that worked well enough for me.  Good story, excellent reading. 

[Sylvan]

Listener brought up a good point that I'd like to address before I proceed with my own comments (and raves).

The story did seem to come to a rather unconvincing conclusion.  During the tale we see just how strong a character "the Boss" is, how much she is dedicated to going her own way, how screwed up the Treatment made her, and how little she trusts the government.  Based on those four characteristics, even with Rowena's realization that the government could honestly be of some help to the elites in her care, it felt like too rapid of a transition to be believable.  Part of me wondered if her much-vaunted and trusted therapist was actually a government dupe working her over to get her hands on the house and the full scope of "the Method".

That aside, this is a GREAT story!  Seriously, this is the kind of human exploration of emotion, bio-ethics, and the nature of war that really fires me up!

I don't make it a secret that I have a deep-seated distrust of military figures.  All the "Support the Troops" slogans we see in America right now really have me on edge.  The reason for this is an overly enthusiastic and "manly" relative who was a Marine.  He made my life rather miserable.  Add to that a family full of rather strongly-opinionated stereotypical, "hawkish" Conservatives (who engrained in me some rather nasty associations with military personnel) and I think you can see why I feel the way I feel.  It took a long time for me to trust -or even like- a person I found out was in the military.

And despite this rather nasty bigotry on my part, this story -along with "Tideline" a few weeks ago- really helped me see soldiers in a new and better light.  I don't see them as "victims" (although there is the inclination to do that) but, rather, as people -ordinary next door types- in extraordinary circumstances.

This is what I love about Science Fiction:  that it can put me in a new and different state of mind, helping me to appreciate a different aspect of the world.

We are shown a setting in which I -as an admittedly pacifist male- would not fit in.  The main characters are portrayed as superior to myself (at least in physical and military matters) and possessed of a disdain that would put me in the hospital should I cross their path at the wrong hour of the day.  Some might have a problem with stories that deal with female characters and the topic of manipulating hormones and emotion.  Some might have a problem with this being "just another one of those 'tough chick' tales".

I found it very humanizing.

I read a comment on the Escape Pod page dedicated to this story that categorized "the Elites" as being too much like the "Lifetime" channel and far too emotional.  In my experience those who do not like "emotion" in their fiction are also the sorts who do not like it in their lives.

It isn't that this story is "too emotional" but that its very subject matter revolves AROUND emotion ... it's integral to the plot.  Saying that "The Elites" is too emotional is like saying The Pope is too Catholic.  It's an indisposable part of the story ... the story cannot exist without all the emotion.  If that's the sort of tale you don't like, that's fine ... but it's not due to a detrimental feature of the tale, just a personal bias on the part of the reader.

Anyway, soapbox aside, I felt that this story showed a real side of soldiers:  a side I could understand and empathize with.  It showed a flawed main character at odds with her past and what's been done to her in the name of progress and military necessity.

In many ways, that story has been told before; usually with men.  I appreciate "the Elites" for giving us a different angle on it.

I'm saving this one for future listening!

Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)

[Chivalrybean]

One only needs to watch a female boxing match, or a mother protecting a child, to know there is a lot of truth in the possibilities to this story. I found the changed made to the soldiers was pretty appaling. Yeah, if you are going to fight, win, but still... I agree with Steve... it gave me some kinda shiver.

I followed the story very closely, it held my attention. I found it belevable. The ending was a bit anti-climactic, seemed to not quite work for some reason, but I can't place my finger on why.

I can't say I enjoyed the story, I just hope it doesn't happen. This is one of the stories geneticists and scientests need to listen too, as well as people in charge of making the decisions to do things like that. I'm all for neat technological advancement, but not at a cost that high.

[Void Munashii]

  I liked this story, and found it rather moving, both due to the personal stuff at the ending, and the fact that Memorial Day is monday. I thought a lot of it was at least realistic enough for me to suspend disbelief, especially given the current situation that many veterans find themselves in (but that is probably a discussion for another place).

  The only thing that bothered me part way into the story was the question of why the Elites seemed to be all women. Was this a "Y: The Last Man" type of world with no men? I was therefore relieved when the explanation was given, plus it was one that I found quite plausible.

  Aside from that, the only criticism I have is one already mentioned; the ending seemed a bit off, sort of rushed. Carla and Amber's "give the government a chance" bit may have been genuine from them (or they may have been bought off/brainwashed by the government), but I have somewhat of an understanding why Roweena would be hesitant (I could not claim to have a full understanding, having never been used and discarded like she has), and the fact that she gave in so easily seemed a bit off. If there had been some indication that she had some doubts about her position before that, it may not have seemed quite so jarring to me.

  As to the accusation that the story was too emotional; I do not agree. I found the emotion in the story to not be over the top, given the experiences of the characters. They have been made to have their emotions be overactive, so seeing them act in a way that we would describe as irrational makes sense. The emotion is a lot of what makes this story work for me. This was not a story that brought tears to me eyes a la "Edward Bear" or "Barnaby in Exile", but it did make an emotional impact on me.

[Windup]

I can't say I enjoyed the story, I just hope it doesn't happen. This is one of the stories geneticists and scientests need to listen too, as well as people in charge of making the decisions to do things like that. I'm all for neat technological advancement, but not at a cost that high.

If the people in charge of making these decisions perceive it as a matter of national (or I think in this case, species) survival, and the technique is considered viable and effective, I don't think there's much chance that it won't be done.  Especially if those bearing those costs directly continue to be drawn from relatively small, relatively poor segments of society with limited political power. 

We've built weapons that could scorch entire cities in a few minutes; I doubt we'll hesitate much at messing around with a soldier's brain chemistry. 

As for the story, I thought it was very good.  Enough that I stopped working for a while and sat down and just listened to it.  I agree with the sentiment that the ending was a little abrupt, and didn't completely flow from the character.  However, the depiction of "The House" rang totally true for me.  Good job...

And I'm with DKT: I am completely convinced that Maia Whitaker could kick my ass.  Or, like my Mom, quiet a classroom on the edge of complete pandemonium by raising one eyebrow. 

[Rain]

I dont quite get the R rating for this, apart from some very minor violence there wasnt anything special about the story, certainly no strong themes i can remember.

I thought the story was ok, was a neat idea but it didnt really go anywhere, i get the impression that the whole war veteran thing is related to things going on in real life, bu i am not from the US so the whole theme felt flat to me

[deflective]

i enjoyed this one a lot.

the ending was abrupt but more coherent than comments would suggest. the house's method was identified as her 'home,' she no longer felt like she could trust her own judgment. this is probably the worst effect of invasive psychological changes, no longer trusting what happens in your own head.

especially when your psychosis may be right. just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

Is there anyone else out there who is completely convinced that Maia Whitaker could kick your ass?

she looks way too friendly to be one of the feral twins. =)

[Roland]

After the warning in the intro I was really looking forward to a great story,but it was Ok but felt more like listening to a future self help manual than a story.  I just did not care about the characters or their situation.
Maybe being a male from outside the US is why I had no connection to it at all.
Hopefully next week will be better.
 

[zZzacha]

Great story, wonderful setting. Very refreshing, a story with female military veterans, struggling with their emotions. As Sylvan said, some might have problems with this story being "just another one of those 'tough chick' tales" but it wasn't overly feminine to me. Of course, being female led to some problems with the veterans - as a female myself, I know exactly what they mean. Us women, we are weird, some weird things happen when our hormones go raging and usually we don't know what's happening until it's done. Or maybe that's just me! (I really don't want to offend other women, so keep your hormones in place girls)

The story was again wonderfully read by Máia Whitaker. I really love her voice, she can set a great mood for a story. Great to see the Máia behind the voice in the picture that deflective posted. She's so cute for such a strong voice! Well done, Máia!

All in all I'm very content with the story, although I'm not sure what I think of the ending. I may have suspected a more violent ending, because Máia's telling was so calm. I kept waiting for a violent loss of control or some twist, though the ending was good for the story and suited the psychology of the main character well.

[Kaa]

I enjoyed this story and the reading was superb.  The accents were just there enough to signal that another character was talking without being so "in your face"--like, say, the zombie story on Pseudopod a few weeks back--as to become more than just window dressing.

However, I do have one nit to pick.  Steve said this was one of three stories that he'd read that gave him chills.  This put a lot of expectation in me, and I was looking for that "chill factor."   The entire time I was listening I was thinking, "Okay...where's the chill?"

I never got it.  Maybe I'm jaded, maybe I'm not as close to the subject matter, or maybe different things chill me.  But this didn't. It was a good story, but it wasn't--for me--chilling.

So this is one of those rare instances where one of Steve's intros actually changed my perception of the story.  That's happened on Podcastle a time or two, as well.

[wintermute]

This was one of my favourite episodes in a while. Which says as much about the weakness of this latest Hugo Season as it does about the strength of this story, but still.

I think the ending made sense, though it felt a little rushed. What should maybe have been the climax was dealt with as an epilogue. But I think that's my only complaint. The world was believable (if not necessarily probable - I imagine it'll be a long time before the military hierarchy believes that women can be as competent as men), and the characters were both real and empathetic.

I might have to look out for more by this authoress...

[Darwinist]

  I liked this story, and found it rather moving, both due to the personal stuff at the ending, and the fact that Memorial Day is monday. I thought a lot of it was at least realistic enough for me to suspend disbelief, especially given the current situation that many veterans find themselves in (but that is probably a discussion for another place).
 

I was going to say the same thing.  Because of Memorial Day I've been reading stories in the local rags and seeing stories on TV about veterans and the horrors some of them had to deal with.  I don't know if I could have survived some of the ordeals some of these people endured without losing my mind.  The story hit a nerve with me.  War is hell.   

[qwints]

I think people not getting the ending has a lot to do with the idea of an untrustworthy narrator. The narrator is literally incapable of evaluating the possible consequences of sharing the method because she is programmed to defend it at all costs. Her walking away from the house and her method is exactly the same psychologically as a mother abandoning her children. The narrator's ability to do so rationally, is a great step forward.

(On the other hand, maybe the government has finally duped her and will do terrible things.)

I have two problems with this story. First, as has been said, there is really too much exposition for an audio form. Second, I felt that the narrative was a bit too detached for what it was supposed to be which caused the ending to be less powerful than it might have been.

Great ideas, less than perfect execution.

[DarkKnightJRK]

Like others mentioned, the main problem with the story is the overexplanation--I think a lot of the character things written could have been condensed and have the actual actions of the characters show the rest--and the wierd, WTF-ish ending--it kinda was a ending that basically said, "let's try trusting the government" when they haven't been shown to be in any way trust-worthy. Granted, that last part could be an unreliable narrator, but there wasn't enough there, I think, to really drive home the point that the MC's emotions weren't clouding her judgement.

But, I also have to say that the reading of the piece was excellent. After hearing and now seeing her, I'd gladly let Maia kick my ass.

[Sylvan]

Qwints brought up some excellent points that I really wanted to expound upon...

I think people not getting the ending has a lot to do with the idea of an untrustworthy narrator. The narrator is literally incapable of evaluating the possible consequences of sharing the method because she is programmed to defend it at all costs. Her walking away from the house and her method is exactly the same psychologically as a mother abandoning her children. The narrator's ability to do so rationally, is a great step forward.

This is a very adroit observation and, in fact, is a remarkable element of the story that was so expertly woven into the action and dialog, that I didn't even notice it.  Very subtle meaning in a very overt tale.  Indeed, since we are told this story through "The Boss'" eyes and experiences, it is sometimes hard to remember that this lens is just as cracked and injured as any of the other Elites living in the house.  Her decision to walk away, for better or for worse, shows a step in healing that is probably the real point of the story.

Thank you, Qwints, for bringing my attention to this point!

I have two problems with this story. First, as has been said, there is really too much exposition for an audio form.

That the story had too much exposition has been stated several times and not just by Qwints.

In this, I respectfully disagree.

To my way of thinking, liking or disliking the amount of exposition is more of a personal choice on the part of the reader as well as an inherent part of the voice of the author.  For me, the exposition enhanced rather than distracted from the circumstances of The Elites and, therefore, only served as a pacing tool.  It slowed what was an inherently fast-paced concept down to an intimate crawl.

In this case, the abundance of exposition brought me into the headspace of people I can honestly say I've never experienced.  It slowed my introduction as well by providing me with long, emotion-laden passages that helped me connect with them, first, and see them in my mind's eye, later.

But, as I said before, this is largely an individual bias.  I can certainly see why readers might think that the amount of exposition was too much.

I wonder, though, if we can guide our minds into a story in different ways to allow ourselves to enjoy different types of storytelling that we might otherwise not enjoy?  I don't know if this is possible or even a good thing, but it would be interesting to see.

Certainly, when seeing a movie I know that my mood can radically impact how I experience the story.  I've seen "What Dreams May Come" three times in my life.  The first time, I developed a stomach illness during the film.  I really found it too long and laborious; it made me uncomfortable and annoyed.  The second time, owing to a recognition that my mental state when I first saw it was influenced by illness, I really found it engaging and noticed things I hadn't the first time through; it was creative and beautifully melancholy.  The third time was just after my father died.  It was heartbreaking and sad-without-hope.

In a similar way, I have to ask if reading or listening to "The Elites" with an eye for the amount of exposition being a narrative tool to bring us into the mind of the narrator, would make those who think it "too much" enjoy the story more.

I don't know but it's interesting to think about.

Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)

[Yossarian's grandson]

I can't say I enjoyed the story, I just hope it doesn't happen. This is one of the stories geneticists and scientests need to listen too, as well as people in charge of making the decisions to do things like that. I'm all for neat technological advancement, but not at a cost that high.

If the people in charge of making these decisions perceive it as a matter of national (or I think in this case, species) survival, and the technique is considered viable and effective, I don't think there's much chance that it won't be done.  Especially if those bearing those costs directly continue to be drawn from relatively small, relatively poor segments of society with limited political power. 

We've built weapons that could scorch entire cities in a few minutes; I doubt we'll hesitate much at messing around with a soldier's brain chemistry. 

Definitely. There's no doubt in my mind that within twenty years from now, (genetical) manipulation of this kind will be possible (and maybe even a lot more). Humanity has always made use of every available technology, for good and for bad. Therefore, we will use this too. Exactly what shape it will take is still to soon too tell, but I'm so convinced of it's inevitability, that any SF without at least some physical enhancements just doesn't come across as 'a real future' anymore.

About the story itself, it was well written and nailed my attention. Even though there wasn't that much happening and I personally feel the characters didn't develop in any true sense, I still enjoyed it very much. For me, it was one of those stories that just felt right. And yeah, really ace reading by Maya.

[Steven Saus]

I kept waiting for the promised hard, challenging thinking, and never found it.  Chalk it up to my postmodern tendencies, but none of the "big ideas" seemed that big, or that challenging.   

• Women fighting - and kicking more ass than men?  I was surprised that Ms. Rusch found it necessary to appeal to a technological "fix".
• Altering one's chemistry, one's biology, to achieve different mental states?  Again, not a surprising thing.  While somewhat less drastic, I can feel the quantitative and qualitative difference in my affect after eating a bunch of carbs.
• Government out to get, screw - or at least meddle with - veterans?  Um, yeah.  Unfortunately not a surprise either.  And I have to say I'm with the Boss (though I wish I wasn't):  bureauracracies (sp?) tend to lose sight of what their purpose rather quickly.  No evil intent required.

They're all great ideas, they're all good story material... but they aren't deeply shocking, surprising, or unsettling.   (Not that they're good as mentioned above, but....)   Maybe it was Steve's intro that got my hopes up.  I can understand where that resonates more for him (or anyone else on that type of journey).  Having already been on that journey myself, those facts alone are not enough to give some extra ooomph.   (Vampires in space with utterly alien aliens.... well, that story really twisted my worldview.)

What was utterly and completely compelling was the moment that the situation - tragic, but neither implausible or very compelling to me - changed.   The moment the apparent victim was suddenly the (an?) aggressor:  That was the moment I sat up and started to really get interested.  That was the moment the mystery hit the story, and it really didn't let up after that.   

And I adored the reading by Máia Whitaker.  The accent reminded me of Gina Torres playing Zoe in Firefly.  Given that character's history, it worked very very well.

[deflective]

I kept waiting for the promised hard, challenging thinking, and never found it.

try this on.

a core principle of military service is sacrifice. sacrifice of personal comfort, sacrifice of the few for the many, ultimately a willingness to sacrifice your life. this was the decision these women made when they agreed to become part of the elites.

now, by the end of the story, our protagonist is trying to separate her programming from natural feelings about the house's method. she thinks that there is a very real possibility they are one and the same this time. there are some well established reasons for keeping it private (the elites distrust the government, could they really make progress in a government run institution? etc.) but there's also the possibility that she is the reason for the house's success.

everyone thought she had overcome her programming, was well on her way to healing, but the trigger had just been misdiagnosed. in fact, she remained just as damaged as the women coming through the door. this may have been the x factor in the house's success. she could understand these women and see potential when no one else could, it may have helped the women relate to her.

assuming that it's true, we come to the big question. if the house needs a leader still under the effects of programing does she even have the right to remove herself and get better? and stay true to herself i mean.

we know that she made the decision to have this procedure done. she decided that the sacrifice was worth it, maybe for the people she's protecting. the changes made her much better at her job, saved the lives of her sisters. and, now, nothing has changed. staying under the effects of the procedure could allow her to change the lives of dozens or even hundreds of elites.

can she now remove herself to heal and stay true to the principles that caused her to make the changes in the first place?

[bolddeceiver]

It may go without saying, but I'll say it anyways -- I think that if you dig just a little under the bio-ethics questions and all, this is saying as much about the present situation.  Sure, we're not actually sticking a needle in people's arm, but we do send people out to war, alter how their brains work (both by military training and indoctrination and by the sheer fact that one must change one's behaviors and responses to survive), and then ask them to reintegrate into society, without offering much meaningful help.

In fact, at first I was afraid that the whole thing was just going to be a screed along these lines.  I think it pulled it off without becoming didactic, even if it did walk a fine line.

[contra]

I agree with everything that has been said so far.  I really liked the story, and I have the same critisisms of it; but that may just be because its in audio form as someone else said, rather than having to read it myself.

I liked everything though.  Well done.
This story reminded me of an anime, Haibane Renmei.  you have a bunch of people who come gether who have no idea why they are there, they only have vague distorted memories.  There is this character Reki, who has been there longer than the others, and acts like a mother for all of them.  At any rate, just watch it.  Not about war though... more... erm.... well people with wings and halos >_>...aaaanyway

As for if the government would do something like this; IMO yes.  We have already tried to take the desicion making process out of deciding if you should shoot someone.  Its almost a natural reaction now.  When training them they deicde to make them deal with the conequences of killing another human being later.  We train people that are often little more than children to be on hairline triggers already.
To make a fighter you have to break someone down mentally as it is; and then rebuild them into a machine that does its job.
Brain chemistry has been known for a long time to effect people.  and thorughout history people that are insane or in bloodlust have been most feared.  Norse 'Berserkers' are an example of this. 

[Listener]

I dont quite get the R rating for this, apart from some very minor violence there wasnt anything special about the story, certainly no strong themes i can remember.

Language.  Steve's ratings tend to be along the lines of the US/MPAA ratings codes, and this one contained enough "bad" language to get an R.  (In the US, according to actor Zach Braff <talking about his film "Garden State">, you only get one "fuck" before PG-13 becomes R.)

[Nobilis]

That's right.  The words you use matter more for ratings than the message you convey.

[SquidDNA]

That was a really powerful piece. Although it was all good and well to hear her describe the modification and conditioning, it wasn't until she said through clenched teeth "Bitch has invaded my territory, threatened my people, trespassed in my world," that I was chilled, because I understood.

[JoeFitz]

Awesome in scope and delivery. Well done!

[OsamaBinLondon]

Sigh!

A low groan escaped my mouth when I began to listen to this one.  I just found the  whole "women turn out to be more ferocious than men" thing a threadbare notion from he bra bruning sixties than really needs to be left behind with skinny ties and suspenders.  The whole thing was so cliched with the bio-engineering, military directives, and social attitudes thrown in for bad measure, there was absolutely nothing new here. So much premise delicately constructed from a tissue thin deck of waterlogged cards hinged so precariously on any number of convenient details.

The chill Steve?  The chill!  Where is the chill, there was no chill here!

Ah well, I suppose I have next week to look forward to.

[yicheng]

This story was so frustrating because it has such potential, but because of execution flaws, just came across like a silly Grrl-Power thing.  There's no dispute that women can be great soldiers, especially they're not coddled or put on pedestal.  Militaries of other nations (e.g. China, UK, Israel) have no problems with putting capable women in combat situations, and numerous historical battles (e.g. Stalingrad) can be sited where women soldier hold up their end of the fight as well as any man.

It just completed ruined it for me, however, when Rusch had them PMS-raging their way to victory.  I think the she was attempting to make the soldiers be strong and still feminine or something, but it just came across as sophomoric and unbelievable, like watching the Charlie's Angels try to pass their Chop-Socky Wire-Fu as real martial arts.  Someone mentioned female boxers.  Look at any Laila Ali fight and I guarantee you won't ever see her lose control and start swinging wildly.  The best fighters are controlled and calm.  To paraphrase Million Dollar Baby, boxing is about balance: keeping yours and taking it from the other guy.

IMHO, the author should have painted the women soldiers as cold-blooded killers, and made the rehab about regaining their emotional empathy (sort of like Post-Partum to the nth-degree).  It would have lent credibility to the characters and provided plenty of opportunities to make them feminine without going overboard with the hormones.  There's a reason why sociopaths make the best assassins: emotional detachment.  And I've known plenty of women that I would not want to be the enemies of, and where getting physically beat up would be the least of my worries.
 
For the record, I have taken over a decade of martial arts and have sparred (both tournament and none) countless times against women opponents, some of which handed me my ass, but a vast majority of them would be in serious trouble if they ever tried to fight a trained man one-on-one without the element of surprise.  To pretend otherwise is an insult to the few women who actually *have* worked to be that good, and just plain patronizing to women in general.

[qwints]

I don't really get the anti-feminist backlash. Mama bears defending their cubs are probably the most dangerous mammals in North America. I know nothing about fighting, so I'll take people's word for it that being detached makes you a better fighter than unrestrained aggression, but why does that mean that aggressive woman are unrealistic?

As a statistical matter, men are stronger than women. But the government was purposely selecting and then enhancing the strongest women. There's no suggestion that women have suddenly become naturally more muscular than man. Outside the story, a lot of modern warfare has greatly diminished the importance of upper body strength. Hand-to-hand combat in the future wouldn't be about arm-wrestling.

[Void Munashii]

This story was so frustrating because it has such potential, but because of execution flaws, just came across like a silly Grrl-Power thing.  There's no dispute that women can be great soldiers, especially they're not coddled or put on pedestal.  Militaries of other nations (e.g. China, UK, Israel) have no problems with putting capable women in combat situations, and numerous historical battles (e.g. Stalingrad) can be sited where women soldier hold up their end of the fight as well as any man.

It just completed ruined it for me, however, when Rusch had them PMS-raging their way to victory.  I think the she was attempting to make the soldiers be strong and still feminine or something, but it just came across as sophomoric and unbelievable, like watching the Charlie's Angels try to pass their Chop-Socky Wire-Fu as real martial arts.  Someone mentioned female boxers.  Look at any Laila Ali fight and I guarantee you won't ever see her lose control and start swinging wildly.  The best fighters are controlled and calm.  To paraphrase Million Dollar Baby, boxing is about balance: keeping yours and taking it from the other guy.

IMHO, the author should have painted the women soldiers as cold-blooded killers, and made the rehab about regaining their emotional empathy (sort of like Post-Partum to the nth-degree).  It would have lent credibility to the characters and provided plenty of opportunities to make them feminine without going overboard with the hormones.  There's a reason why sociopaths make the best assassins: emotional detachment.  And I've known plenty of women that I would not want to be the enemies of, and where getting physically beat up would be the least of my worries.
 
For the record, I have taken over a decade of martial arts and have sparred (both tournament and none) countless times against women opponents, some of which handed me my ass, but a vast majority of them would be in serious trouble if they ever tried to fight a trained man one-on-one without the element of surprise.  To pretend otherwise is an insult to the few women who actually *have* worked to be that good, and just plain patronizing to women in general.

  While I stand by my first reaction that this is what would happen if The Sci-Fi Channel and Lifetime collaborated on a story I do not see this as at all being a "silly Grrl-Power thing". Maybe it's just the fact that I am not in the military, but the way the elites are depicted as essentially becoming beserkers in battle seemed beleivable to me. The best fighters may be the ones who are always calm and in control, but I don't think that can be said about soldiers. your average soldier does not go through the years of training and discipline that a martial artist does.

  I expect that on the battlefield the Elites are hot-blooded killers (as opposed to cold-blooded), but this story was about them trying to overcome that, to regain their humanity, and control of their hormonally altered emotions. I didn't see any real attempts to make them seem "feminine", just attempts at making them seem like humans who had been used and discarded once they were no longer useful. The point was that the military found a way to take advantage of a woman's natural instincts to protect their young, and direct it against the enemy. It wasn't about removing their emotions, it was about magnifying them.

  The women you have sparred with may be at a disadvantage normally against a trained male fighter, but what about if that man was threatening their child? That could make all the difference.

 

[wintermute]

The women you have sparred with may be at a disadvantage normally against a trained male fighter, but what about if that man was threatening their child? That could make all the difference.

More to the point, a woman who would be at a disadvantage against a trained male fighter would never have become an elite in the first place. The story makes it quite clear that the requirements for being a front-line soldier were far more stringent that just having two X chromosomes.

[OsamaBinLondon]

Qwints, no no no! No anti feminist backlash from me at all.  I have really only analysed the story as I see it with the flaws protruding like porcupine spines.  Mama bears defending their cubs is fine but lets face it, men are naturally more aggressive than women.  I found the notion that by somehow enhancing  this natural protective instinct creates a super warrior ludicrous. 
If you have a male solider who is already stronger more aggressive than its gender counterpart, surely the thing to do is enhance whatever instinct, emotion, motivation, makes it already more successful.  That is what I mean by precariously hinged on convenient details.  For 'me' the whole story seemed to revole around this flawed ideology and everything else seemd directed at making this lopsided logic comfortable.

   

[OsamaBinLondon]

By the way, I thought I would aslo just add, that My wife has seen my above posts and placed me on kitchen patrol for two days.  Pah!

[DKT]

By the way, I thought I would aslo just add, that My wife has seen my above posts and placed me on kitchen patrol for two days.  Pah!

Two days?  Bah!  I live for kitchen patrol.  I love the smell of kitchen in the evening!

[Void Munashii]

The women you have sparred with may be at a disadvantage normally against a trained male fighter, but what about if that man was threatening their child? That could make all the difference.

More to the point, a woman who would be at a disadvantage against a trained male fighter would never have become an elite in the first place. The story makes it quite clear that the requirements for being a front-line soldier were far more stringent that just having two X chromosomes.

  True, the story does state that a woman has to already display the traits of a beserker to be considered (being the type of person who could kill three people before realizing she had activated her weapon and all), but I meant to be clearer that I was referring to two equally trained parties, not a trained woman versus just any random man nor vice versa.

[yicheng]

  While I stand by my first reaction that this is what would happen if The Sci-Fi Channel and Lifetime collaborated on a story I do not see this as at all being a "silly Grrl-Power thing". Maybe it's just the fact that I am not in the military, but the way the elites are depicted as essentially becoming beserkers in battle seemed beleivable to me. The best fighters may be the ones who are always calm and in control, but I don't think that can be said about soldiers. your average soldier does not go through the years of training and discipline that a martial artist does.

It depends on what you choose to label the "average soldier".  If you consider that most moderns wars will become more and more asymmetrical, you essentially have two kinds of soldiers left: the low-tech 14-year old indigenous guerilla with dirt cheap weapons (like an AK-47 or an RPG), versus the high-tech highly-trained professional special forces able to call in precision air-strikes, sporting wearable personal computers, and packing enough smart-weapons to level entire villages.  I assumed the Elites to be of the later type.

  I expect that on the battlefield the Elites are hot-blooded killers (as opposed to cold-blooded), but this story was about them trying to overcome that, to regain their humanity, and control of their hormonally altered emotions. I didn't see any real attempts to make them seem "feminine", just attempts at making them seem like humans who had been used and discarded once they were no longer useful. The point was that the military found a way to take advantage of a woman's natural instincts to protect their young, and direct it against the enemy. It wasn't about removing their emotions, it was about magnifying them.

I'm saying that Cold-blooded female killer would have been more believable (definitely scarier) and made a better story, IMHO.  I'm well aware of the actual plot as I did sit through it's entirety.  :-)

  The women you have sparred with may be at a disadvantage normally against a trained male fighter, but what about if that man was threatening their child? That could make all the difference.

You're just guessing here, and since I've never been in a life and death fight either, I guess I am too.  It's just that every single time I've seen a fighter lose control, it's usually a sign that they've already lost.  Contrary to what movies would have us believe, there's any number of injuries (broken limbs, hemorrhaged organs, most hits to the head) that will stop you cold no matter how much rage or blood-lust you have.  I suppose I wouldn't have made a fuss if the author didn't *specifically* make a point about hand-to-hand combat.  And given how most battles in Asymmetrical Warfare plays out (i.e. civilian genocides, ambushes, and very few stand-up battles), the Elites may well have been used on enemy civilian populations since their bloodlust would extend to killing anyone to was a threat, including harmless civilians, while most normal un-enhanced soldiers would have trouble shooting down a 12 year old girl running at them with a hand grenade, a la Full Metal Jacket.

More to the point, a woman who would be at a disadvantage against a trained male fighter would never have become an elite in the first place. The story makes it quite clear that the requirements for being a front-line soldier were far more stringent that just having two X chromosomes.

My understanding is that the Elites were picked for the ease and degree with which their "female-bloodlust" could be controlled, not their actual physical abilities.  And if that were the case, you wouldn't have a majority of the combatants be female, as Rusch depicts.

I don't really get the anti-feminist backlash. Mama bears defending their cubs are probably the most dangerous mammals in North America. I know nothing about fighting, so I'll take people's word for it that being detached makes you a better fighter than unrestrained aggression, but why does that mean that aggressive woman are unrealistic?

As a statistical matter, men are stronger than women. But the government was purposely selecting and then enhancing the strongest women. There's no suggestion that women have suddenly become naturally more muscular than man. Outside the story, a lot of modern warfare has greatly diminished the importance of upper body strength. Hand-to-hand combat in the future wouldn't be about arm-wrestling.

I really do hope that I don't come across as an anti-feminist.  I'm not saying aggressive women are unrealistic.  I'm saying that aggressive women as effective soldiers are unrealistic, and that it seems (to me at least) that the depictions of women as hormonal basket-cases are rather demeaning to real women soldiers.

[qwints]

Qwints, no no no! No anti feminist backlash from me at all.  I have really only analysed the story as I see it with the flaws protruding like porcupine spines.  Mama bears defending their cubs is fine but lets face it, men are naturally more aggressive than women.  I found the notion that by somehow enhancing  this natural protective instinct creates a super warrior ludicrous. 
If you have a male solider who is already stronger more aggressive than its gender counterpart, surely the thing to do is enhance whatever instinct, emotion, motivation, makes it already more successful.  That is what I mean by precariously hinged on convenient details.  For 'me' the whole story seemed to revole around this flawed ideology and everything else seemd directed at making this lopsided logic comfortable. 

I was talking more about the tone of some negative comments than the content of your post in particular.

"silly Grrl-Power thing."  "PMS-raging"

"bra burning sixties" 

I also think the fact that some people react so strongly against the idea of female super-soldiers suggests that maybe such "Grrl-Power things' are needed to raise consciousness. I'll buy the criticism that berserker soldiers in a modern warfare situation rings false, but there's no good reason to believe that the individuals capable of the most violence with enhancement would not be female. Such an idea seems to suggest a hostility to the idea of women being powerful and thus seems anti-feminist to me.

Also the "some women have beat me in a fight" might be similar to "some of my best friends are black."

*edited for grammar and clarity

[lieffeil]

Ok. So we've hashed through exposition, themes, feminism, and reflection on the way veterans are treated.
What I'd like to discuss, open up a bit, is do you think that Amber and Carla were right? We can speculate that the government got to them, but that's all cotton-fluff conspiracy so far as the end of the story is concerned. The main character accepted that they were right, that the method could be used on a grand scale to help more Elites out. But she did have doubts. Were they founded on her emotional instabilities, or was there something to them?
The Method itself, now that's a little sketchy. What exactly did you pick up was the way that things were run, besides "three strikes, you're out"? Could something like that work if there was somewhere else that they could go, once they were kicked out of the House? Would it just be an empty threat?
And what happens to the others, the ones who do get kicked out?
If the government ran an extensive program, they'd have to have answers to these and to the questions asked by the Boss, like "will they know when to bend the rules"?

I was caught by this story, though I was a bit let down by the ending. I wasn't expecting anything flashy, like a fight or a sudden epiphany, just something... more. A hint as to what the central message of the story was. Maybe I'm just a lazy listener. This made me want to hunt for deeper meaning, rather than just accepting what was there and moving on.

[yicheng]

I also think the fact that some people are react so strongly against the idea of female super-soldiers suggests that maybe such "Grrl-Power things' are needed to raise consciousness. I'll buy the criticism that berserker soldiers in a modern warfare situation rings false, but there's no good reason to believe that the individuals capable of the most violence with enhancement are female. Such an idea seems to suggest a hostility to the idea of women being powerful and thus seems anti-feminist to me.

Also the "some women have beat me in a fight" might be similar to "some of my best friends are black."

You are free, of course, to form your own opinion, but I don't think ad hominem attacks are constructive.  I'll not waste words explaining what I've already stated, as I think you're taking something from your own personal worldview and inserting it into my mouth.  I should have, however, explicitly stated that if it were male soldiers going beserk, I would have found it equally implausible and ridiculous.  I'm not sure where you extrapolate the fact that I have "hostility to the idea of women being powerful".  I would have loved it, in fact, if the women in this story *were* powerful, as in controlled/calm/lethal, instead of hormone-driven hair-triggered messes they were made out to be.  Perhaps you are confusing "Power" with "Violence"?

[Void Munashii]

Ok. So we've hashed through exposition, themes, feminism, and reflection on the way veterans are treated.
What I'd like to discuss, open up a bit, is do you think that Amber and Carla were right? We can speculate that the government got to them, but that's all cotton-fluff conspiracy so far as the end of the story is concerned. The main character accepted that they were right, that the method could be used on a grand scale to help more Elites out. But she did have doubts. Were they founded on her emotional instabilities, or was there something to them?

  I don't know if the government got to Amber and Carla or not, but I beleive that they want to be right. I do not think they are right, but then I have a general distrust of government. I do not think that the Roweena thinks they are right, I think she's just giving up. She's been fighting too long, far longer than she realized, and can't do it anymore. Weena does want her friends to be right though, she just doesn't really beleive deep down that they are.
  There is definitely something to Weena's doubts, because if the government was really on the level, they would not be sending fake Elites into the house to collect DNA samples. If you are trying to gain someone's trust, committing such an outright violation of that trust is not something that will convince them that you are trustworthy.

[Chodon]

I can totally believe the "mother grizzly" analogy put forth in this story.  My mother, if my brother or I were threatened, could rip a man's arms from his side and beat him to death with them.  She may not even stop there.  I could see her laying entire cities to waste if the need arose.  She is also the best shot with a rifle I have ever met.  I could totally see her being an Elite in this story.

There is absolutely nothing preventing women from being as good or better soldiers than men except social conditioning.  It's totally plausible at some point we will be able to remove that social conditioning and viola!  We have the story "Elites".

[wintermute]

I think it's fair to say there's nothing stopping them being as good as men, except social conditioning. But I don't think there's any reason why, absent society, women should generally be better soldiers than men. I'm willing to be convinced, though.

[Chodon]

I think it's fair to say there's nothing stopping them being as good as men, except social conditioning. But I don't think there's any reason why, absent society, women should generally be better soldiers than men. I'm willing to be convinced, though.

If you ever get the chance, threaten me in front of my mother.  That'll prove it to you. 

Seriously though, I see why you're challenging my point.  I should clarify: with modified brain chemistry like in the story I could see how they could be superior to their male counterparts (if indeed the men could not be modified in this way as the story proposes).

[wintermute]

Yes, women with special enhancements would probably be superior to men without them. Just as women who have spent years studying martial arts would probably be superior to men who hadn't. But that doesn't support the contention that all other things being equal, women would be superior to men. And I know that's not exactly what you were arguing, but I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation of what you said.

And, of course, it's a truism that all other things being equal, the side with the simpler uniforms will win. But only because "all other things" covers a lot of territory

[Void Munashii]

And, of course, it's a truism that all other things being equal, the side with the simpler uniforms will win. But only because "all other things" covers a lot of territory

  I thought, all else being equal, it was the side with the shorter hair that wins:

"Think about it! Why did the US cavalry beat the Indian nation? Short back and sides versus girly-hippie locks. The Cavaliers and the Roundheads, 1-0 to the pudding-basins. Vietnam, crew-cuts both sides, no score draw."

[wintermute]

Heh. Possibly. The idea behind the "simpler uniforms" thing is that there's less to get in the way. Longer hair is probably more likely to get in your eyes, which would be a bad thing, so that would be true as well.

But again, all other things would have to be really equal for hairstyle to be the deciding factor.

[qwints]

You are free, of course, to form your own opinion, but I don't think ad hominem attacks are constructive.  I'll not waste words explaining what I've already stated, as I think you're taking something from your own personal worldview and inserting it into my mouth.  I should have, however, explicitly stated that if it were male soldiers going beserk, I would have found it equally implausible and ridiculous.  I'm not sure where you extrapolate the fact that I have "hostility to the idea of women being powerful".  I would have loved it, in fact, if the women in this story *were* powerful, as in controlled/calm/lethal, instead of hormone-driven hair-triggered messes they were made out to be.  Perhaps you are confusing "Power" with "Violence"?

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend you. I think your second post did a very good job of clarifying your position and agree with a lot of it. The post you quote was intended more to point out that there was, what I thought, an unusual amount of time being spent arguing that women would not be the best choice for super soldiers. I quoted your first post because of phrases like "silly Grrl power thing" that seemed hostile to the idea of empowering women. Your later posts have clearly shown that (I think, feel free to correct me) you thought that the author sacrificed plausibility in the effort to make an ideological point. This is, of course, a good and valid criticism of any story.

That said, I think I've missed a broader point about women being the super-soldiers that wintermute brought up.

I think it's fair to say there's nothing stopping them being as good as men, except social conditioning. But I don't think there's any reason why, absent society, women should generally be better soldiers than men. I'm willing to be convinced, though.

I think I've misinterpreted people's arguments that it wouldn't make sense for all Elites to be female as a misogyny that wasn't actually there.

[wintermute]

That said, I think I've missed a broader point about women being the super-soldiers that wintermute brought up.

I think it's fair to say there's nothing stopping them being as good as men, except social conditioning. But I don't think there's any reason why, absent society, women should generally be better soldiers than men. I'm willing to be convinced, though.

I think I've misinterpreted people's arguments that it wouldn't make sense for all Elites to be female as a misogyny that wasn't actually there.

I don't remember, exactly, but I got the impression that there wasn't any good scientific reason why the elites should be all female, but one of the original researchers said "Hey! Mothers defending their young!", and since then it had mainly been a point of dogma, or maybe ideology, that women (of the right sort, with the right stimuli) would be better front-line soldiers than men.

[Chodon]

That said, I think I've missed a broader point about women being the super-soldiers that wintermute brought up.

I think it's fair to say there's nothing stopping them being as good as men, except social conditioning. But I don't think there's any reason why, absent society, women should generally be better soldiers than men. I'm willing to be convinced, though.

I think I've misinterpreted people's arguments that it wouldn't make sense for all Elites to be female as a misogyny that wasn't actually there.

I don't remember, exactly, but I got the impression that there wasn't any good scientific reason why the elites should be all female, but one of the original researchers said "Hey! Mothers defending their young!", and since then it had mainly been a point of dogma, or maybe ideology, that women (of the right sort, with the right stimuli) would be better front-line soldiers than men.

I thought I remembered something about women having a stronger drive to defend things they loved than men.  Maybe I made that up in my head though.

[wintermute]

I thought I remembered something about women having a stronger drive to defend things they loved than men.  Maybe I made that up in my head though.

You may be right. But even given that, I got the impression they didn't look very hard to see if men had similarly effective triggers that could be exploited.

[yicheng]

Your later posts have clearly shown that (I think, feel free to correct me) you thought that the author sacrificed plausibility in the effort to make an ideological point. This is, of course, a good and valid criticism of any story.
...
I think I've misinterpreted people's arguments that it wouldn't make sense for all Elites to be female as a misogyny that wasn't actually there.

I think you summed me up better than I did.  Thank you.  :-)

  I thought, all else being equal, it was the side with the shorter hair that wins:

"Think about it! Why did the US cavalry beat the Indian nation? Short back and sides versus girly-hippie locks. The Cavaliers and the Roundheads, 1-0 to the pudding-basins. Vietnam, crew-cuts both sides, no score draw."

The US Calvary defeated the various Indian nations in the way that most nations past and present end up defeating an insurgent rebellion: i.e. bribing the friendlies and committing genocide against the rest.  Against tribes that could actually field enough troops to do some damage (like the Sioux), the Calvary wiped out their main food supply (the Buffalo) and rounded up any civilians they could find into Reservations (i.e. concentration camps).  Those that didn't die of starvation, small pox, or got killed at "battles" like Wounded Knee would be ready to give up after a few years.  The British did a similar thing against the Boers in Africa.  The honest truth is that the US lost in Vietnam because it wasn't willing to kill innocent civilians and destroy the Vietcong's base of support, and wasn't willing to pump enough GI's in the country to win the humanitarian way.

I can totally believe the "mother grizzly" analogy put forth in this story. 

Not to argue, but while mother grizzlies are definitely dangerous to humans, they're not more dangerous or deadlier than their male counterparts.  Male Brown Bears regularly practice Infanticide (killing of bear cubs) in order to make the their mothers sexually productive again, and if the female resists too much, she is often killed and eaten as well.

[Void Munashii]

  I thought, all else being equal, it was the side with the shorter hair that wins:

"Think about it! Why did the US cavalry beat the Indian nation? Short back and sides versus girly-hippie locks. The Cavaliers and the Roundheads, 1-0 to the pudding-basins. Vietnam, crew-cuts both sides, no score draw."

The US Calvary defeated the various Indian nations in the way that most nations past and present end up defeating an insurgent rebellion: i.e. bribing the friendlies and committing genocide against the rest.  Against tribes that could actually field enough troops to do some damage (like the Sioux), the Calvary wiped out their main food supply (the Buffalo) and rounded up any civilians they could find into Reservations (i.e. concentration camps).  Those that didn't die of starvation, small pox, or got killed at "battles" like Wounded Knee would be ready to give up after a few years.  The British did a similar thing against the Boers in Africa.  The honest truth is that the US lost in Vietnam because it wasn't willing to kill innocent civilians and destroy the Vietcong's base of support, and wasn't willing to pump enough GI's in the country to win the humanitarian way.

  It was a quote that I was hoping someone would recognize, not my personal beleifs. The comment about simpler uniforms made me think of it, which made me laugh, and this being a place where science fiction fans gather I figured someone would get it.
 
edited for spelling

[qwints]

Wow, I re-watched Red Dwarf over the last year and I didn't recognize that quote. Great show.

[Chodon]

I can totally believe the "mother grizzly" analogy put forth in this story. 

Not to argue, but while mother grizzlies are definitely dangerous to humans, they're not more dangerous or deadlier than their male counterparts.  Male Brown Bears regularly practice Infanticide (killing of bear cubs) in order to make the their mothers sexually productive again, and if the female resists too much, she is often killed and eaten as well.

I wasn't making points about bears, I was making a point about my mother and her ability to defend her offspring.

[Planish]

This story had a '70s feel, to me.
It also was not the sort of story that I'd "point at when I say SF". Rather more like the ST:tOS episodes that were a reflection of current affairs.
There was a not-too-original premise, with a little bit of a twist, but the twist was not enough to make up for what felt like a hastily-assembled middle and ending of the story. Or maybe that the story was just a vehicle for the premise, which of itself was not engaging enough. Something like that. 
Certainly no chills.

I loved Maia's reading though.

[stePH]

I only just got around to listening to this one last night, and having listened to the Podcastle episode "Wisteria" a couple of days ago, that's two Whitaker readings in the same week.  I like her. 

(I also enjoyed the story, but I'm not the most critical reader nor the go-to guy for in-depth analysis.  I was the guy in English class who said things like "I didn't see the great metaphysical struggle between the lesbian socialists and the zen imperialists representing the War in Heaven.  It was just a story about a girl walking to the store to buy some milk."

[stePH]

This story reminded me of an anime, Haibane Renmei.  you have a bunch of people who come gether who have no idea why they are there, they only have vague distorted memories.  There is this character Reki, who has been there longer than the others, and acts like a mother for all of them.  At any rate, just watch it.  Not about war though... more... erm.... well people with wings and halos >_>...aaaanyway

(google, google)

By Yoshitoshi ABe?  The guy behind Serial Experiments: Lain?  I'm so there!

... or would be, if NetFlix had it in their catalog. 

[Tango Alpha Delta]

Something someone said much earlier on about the Government trying to get "the Method" got me thinking about conspiracy theories in general.  Specifically, it made me think about how frequently we all seem to be looking for a "Magic Bullet" kind of answer to complex problems when the REAL answer is simply a combination of hard work, patience, and nurturing attention.

I thought it was a little silly for Rowena to start thinking of her "Method" in those terms; as something definite to be protected.  From what I remember of the text of the story, she was perfectly aware of the fact that it was her own sense of balance in discipline and guidance that was making it possible for these veterans to recover from their mental injuries.  So, logically she *shouldn't* have reacted the way she did - because she should have known that her "Method" wasn't something that could be taken away from her.  On the other hand, I do think her reactions were logical, considering that it was the interference into her domain and the threat to that balance that she was really reacting to.

As for the whole "feminist Grrl-power" idea... we self-aware beings (assuming everyone in the forum belongs to that group) tend to look at groupings as absolute.  Men vs. Women is very popular; however, we have a hard time grasping the fact that within each group, there are other sliding scales and degrees that overlap between the groups.  Logical subsets of the two groups are not mutually exclusive; there are strong Men and weak Men, as well as strong and weak Women.  Men tend to be physically more durable than Women; this does not equate to "Men are stronger than Women".

Since this is SF, I don't have a problem accepting the premise that these women could be augmented to the point that it was detrimental to use male soldiers.  I don't think this story was about men vs. women.  I do think the story was about the need for our society to place as much importance on nurturing those we have twisted and damaged as we do on figuring out how to twist and damage them.

Edit: THAT is where the chills come in, by the way.  If you don't find it chilling that we spend trillions on turning people into killing machines and NOTHING on turning them back into functioning humans, then you aren't paying attention.

Edit 2: the Quickening - addressed slightly broader group to satisfy Russell

[Russell Nash]

... we humans (assuming everyone in the forum belongs to that group)

Doesn't anyone look at the avatars?  It's all you white male humans thinking everyone is just like them.  I think I've had just about enough of this attitude.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

... we humans (assuming everyone in the forum belongs to that group)

Doesn't anyone look at the avatars?  It's all you white male humans thinking everyone is just like them.  I think I've had just about enough of this attitude.

Sorry... I just hope you're self-aware enough to be satisfied with that. 

[Shotobouv]

Edit: THAT is where the chills come in, by the way.  If you don't find it chilling that we spend trillions on turning people into killing machines and NOTHING on turning them back into functioning humans, then you aren't paying attention.

War is an insane situation. "War make a man insane by civilian standards. When the man come back, he may return to civilian norms again. After a while." From "Introduction: Welcome to the War Zone", book "The Military Dimension Mark II", by David Drake.

I think the stories, "Tideline" and "Elites" go very well together, how we are remembered and how we are treated when we return.

Steve in the intro mentions "The Forever War", By Joe Haldeman, who served in Vietnam. I quoted David Drake who also served in Vietnam and writes about his experiences from that time in science fiction. I think a grimmer side, Hammer Slammers, but others as well. His characters are not sane by civilian standards.

[stePH]

Steve in the intro mentions "The Forever War", By Joe Haldeman, who served in Vietnam.

Not exactly.  I didn't recall any explicit reference to The Forever War so I went back and listened.  The first thing Steve says in the outro is "This isn't the first work of science fiction to take a hard look at the way we treat veterans.  Joe Haldeman's practically made his career on it."

But I do like The Forever War and consider it the companion volume to Heinlein's Starship Troopers.  Or, at least, whenever somebody tells me they're reading Starship Troopers I always recommend that they read The Forever War as soon as they finish.

[Planish]

[snip]
We can speculate that the government got to them, but that's all cotton-fluff conspiracy so far as the end of the story is concerned. The main character accepted that they were right, that the method could be used on a grand scale to help more Elites out. But she did have doubts. Were they founded on her emotional instabilities, or was there something to them?

[snip] 
There is definitely something to Weena's doubts, because if the government was really on the level, they would not be sending fake Elites into the house to collect DNA samples. If you are trying to gain someone's trust, committing such an outright violation of that trust is not something that will convince them that you are trustworthy.

Up until the end, I was thinking that the gummint's hidden agenda was not to find an effective way to rehabilitate the vets for the sake of healing them, but rather to make it easier to gain public acceptance of the way they messed with their heads in the first place. Something along the lines of "well, they'll end up perfectly normal after the tour of duty, so no harm - no foul". Doctoring the spin instead of the patients.
But that didn't happen.

[snip]
THAT is where the chills come in, by the way.  If you don't find it chilling that we spend trillions on turning people into killing machines and NOTHING on turning them back into functioning humans, then you aren't paying attention.

*leans forward in rocking chair and gestures with pipestem*
I've been watching the nightly news off and on since the early '60s. The novelty of obscenely high offe... er, defense budgets and PTSD has long since worn off, for me. "The chill is gone", you might say.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

[snip]
THAT is where the chills come in, by the way.  If you don't find it chilling that we spend trillions on turning people into killing machines and NOTHING on turning them back into functioning humans, then you aren't paying attention.

*leans forward in rocking chair and gestures with pipestem*
I've been watching the nightly news off and on since the early '60s. The novelty of obscenely high offe... er, defense budgets and PTSD has long since worn off, for me. "The chill is gone", you might say.
[/quote]

Well, grampy, I figgers it like this; y'all done did some fine work, keepin' the faith an' all, and now it's my turn.  We gotta keep beatin' the drum and playin' the Woody Guthrie songs 'til someone up in Warshington starts to pay some mind.  Let's jest say there's a good reason the blues is still playin'...

</stupid accent>

Seriously, though, it's not a problem that ever goes away.  We ebb and flow our way through history, and each generation allows itself to be outraged anew without effectively passing the lesson along to the next one.  Despite our shoddy treatment of WWI veterans, Vietnam vets, and now the guys suffering their way through Walter Reed, there's always another crop of youngsters behind them believing the recruiting sergeants' B.S. about honor, duty, and integrity.  (Apparently only qualities they look for in others... since they seem to evaporate when a servicemember actually tries to claim a benefit.)

</rant>

Okay, now I'll just go back to being entertained.   

[Planish]

Seriously, though, it's not a problem that ever goes away.  We ebb and flow our way through history, and each generation allows itself to be outraged anew without effectively passing the lesson along to the next one.  Despite our shoddy treatment of WWI veterans, Vietnam vets, and now the guys suffering their way through Walter Reed, there's always another crop of youngsters behind them believing the recruiting sergeants' B.S. about honor, duty, and integrity.  (Apparently only qualities they look for in others... since they seem to evaporate when a servicemember actually tries to claim a benefit.)

I hear ya. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulce_et_Decorum_Est

[goatkeeper]

Neat story.  I work a lot with VA hospitals and women's shelters/halfway houses for my day job and so this story really hit home with me.  Spousal or child abuse victims and people dealing with addictions often have a very similiar type of PTSD as veterans.  There are women/people like this all over our world, learning and struggling to be resilient to the circumstances of their past.  They aren't all malicious bio-enhanced super weapons, but still.

I'd like to see more non profit organizations in science fiction.

[Void Munashii]

Up until the end, I was thinking that the gummint's hidden agenda was not to find an effective way to rehabilitate the vets for the sake of healing them, but rather to make it easier to gain public acceptance of the way they messed with their heads in the first place. Something along the lines of "well, they'll end up perfectly normal after the tour of duty, so no harm - no foul". Doctoring the spin instead of the patients.
But that didn't happen.

  I viewed it as more the government wanting to learn how to manipulate the Elites further, to make them more controllable. If they can treat the Elites once they are too old to be useful and prevent them from doing awful and embarrassing things once back in normal society, all the better, but the real goal is to learn how to make them even more dangerous in battle while still being controllable.

  In any case, if their world is anything like our, when the vets do act out in normal society it would not need to be spun very much. When a vet does something now (like killing themselves or someone else), it's just a small local news story that runs somewhere between a politician speaking at a high school graduation and the segment where they test infomercial items to see if they really work. If no one pays attention to the problem, there is no real need to spin it.

[lieffeil]

If no one pays attention to the problem, there is no real need to spin it.

That has to be the single saddest thing I've heard all week.
Mostly because it's so true.

[Listener]

I thought I remembered something about women having a stronger drive to defend things they loved than men.  Maybe I made that up in my head though.

You may be right. But even given that, I got the impression they didn't look very hard to see if men had similarly effective triggers that could be exploited.

"They're gonna take your SUV, your beer, and your free porn.  Go kill 'em."

[Void Munashii]

If no one pays attention to the problem, there is no real need to spin it.

That has to be the single saddest thing I've heard all week.
Mostly because it's so true.

  Well, I am known around work for being a ray of sunshine. I'm glad I was here to cheer up your day 

[stePH]

You may be right. But even given that, I got the impression they didn't look very hard to see if men had similarly effective triggers that could be exploited.

"They're gonna take your SUV, your beer, and your free porn.  Go kill 'em."

You left out ESPN.

[gobi]

I thought this was an oddly serendipitous story:

http://io9.com/5015317/a-parasite-that-induces-love-in-its-host

A Brazilian wasp has evolved a very peculiar mind-control power in order to reproduce: It induces love in a species of caterpillar.

[Darwinist]

I thought this was an oddly serendipitous story:

http://io9.com/5015317/a-parasite-that-induces-love-in-its-host

A Brazilian wasp has evolved a very peculiar mind-control power in order to reproduce: It induces love in a species of caterpillar.

Disturbing isn't the right word.  Horrifying?   I need to get me some of the wasp mind-control power.

[goatkeeper]

Man, what is it about these Brazilian parasitic wasps?
http://web.mac.com/normsherman/Site/Podcast/Entries/2007/11/21_Drabblecast_39-_The_Beekeepersby_J._Alan_Pierce.html

[Archie]

This was first class. I have a friend who was in the UK Special Forces and I have burned a copy of this onto CD for him. It was brilliantly read and a first class story.

Excellent

[JoeFitz]

I don't remember, exactly, but I got the impression that there wasn't any good scientific reason why the elites should be all female, but one of the original researchers said "Hey! Mothers defending their young!", and since then it had mainly been a point of dogma, or maybe ideology, that women (of the right sort, with the right stimuli) would be better front-line soldiers than men.

I think the text bears this interpretation out. It strikes me that this is the deeper point. The story inverts our prejudice that men make better soldiers with a scientifically dubious dogma and questions it. Recall the instance where the main character looks for those reports about these tests but cannot find them. This inversion aspect, I found, was the most enjoyable. For a number of minutes at the beginning, I thought 'why did Steve get a woman to read a story about soldiers' until it was made clear that the soldiers were women.

It strikes me that one good reason to make soldiers female is the same reason that sometime in the 19th century, women started to become the majority of teachers: fewer men were signing up. In this story, I get the impression that propaganda merely started telling soldiers that the "maternal protective instinct" made women better soldiers and men stopped becoming soldiers for fear of being labeled feminine. You'll recall the comments the main character had about the soft, weak doctor.

[Listener]

Does this week's Drabblecast feel like a prequel to this story? Same author, same idea (woman warriors)...

http://web.me.com/normsherman/Site/Podcast/Entries/2010/5/21_Drabblecast_164-_The_Observer_by_Kristine_Kathryn_Rusch_Drabble-_The_Miner_byTravis_Scott_Greer.html

[Unblinking]

Does this week's Drabblecast feel like a prequel to this story? Same author, same idea (woman warriors)...

http://web.me.com/normsherman/Site/Podcast/Entries/2010/5/21_Drabblecast_164-_The_Observer_by_Kristine_Kathryn_Rusch_Drabble-_The_Miner_byTravis_Scott_Greer.html

That would make sense.  When I listened to The Observer I'd forgotten that this one was also by KKR, but I still had a strong association with it. 

Unfortunately, realizing that increases my dislike for this one that I already didn't like particularly well.  The other story used it to much better result.  This one seemed like it was just trying to justify it's premise of women warriors and trying too hard.  In a society where technology is advanced enough to genetically engineer supersoldiers, creating super-mother soldiers isn't going to trump advanced weaponry on the other side.  Adrenaline fueled protective instincts aren't all that helpful with modern weaponry.  In the days of blade to blade combat, sure, but then the technology for engineering wouldn't be available. 

The one concept that I found very intriguing from it all was that the memory wipes did not stop the PTSD.  I don't know if that would be true or not, but if it would, it would say a lot about the nature of PTSD, perhaps that it is rooted deep in the brainstem below the level of conscious memory.

[yicheng]

I heard the Drabblecast story as well, and I agree with Unblinking that "the Observer" seemed better executed.  I was better sold that the character in the Observer was one woman you didn't want to f*ck with:  she was a bloody killer rather than a hormone-case.   

I still find the idea of hormonally-enhanced women soldiers to be rather unnecessary, but that's just my opinion.  Other countries already use women as combat troops (British and Isreali's come to mind), and I don't know any military mind that would think uncontrollably violent soldiers are a good idea.  Discipline, training, organization, ruthlessness, and technology wins wars, not blood-thirsty sociopathy.  That's why those short-ish Roman legionaries were able to beat the crap out of the larger stronger Gauls.