Author Topic: EP159: Elites  (Read 35979 times)

yicheng

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Reply #50 on: May 30, 2008, 09:19:36 PM
Your later posts have clearly shown that (I think, feel free to correct me) you thought that the author sacrificed plausibility in the effort to make an ideological point. This is, of course, a good and valid criticism of any story.
...
I think I've misinterpreted people's arguments that it wouldn't make sense for all Elites to be female as a misogyny that wasn't actually there.

I think you summed me up better than I did.  Thank you.  :-)

  I thought, all else being equal, it was the side with the shorter hair that wins:

"Think about it! Why did the US cavalry beat the Indian nation? Short back and sides versus girly-hippie locks. The Cavaliers and the Roundheads, 1-0 to the pudding-basins. Vietnam, crew-cuts both sides, no score draw."

The US Calvary defeated the various Indian nations in the way that most nations past and present end up defeating an insurgent rebellion: i.e. bribing the friendlies and committing genocide against the rest.  Against tribes that could actually field enough troops to do some damage (like the Sioux), the Calvary wiped out their main food supply (the Buffalo) and rounded up any civilians they could find into Reservations (i.e. concentration camps).  Those that didn't die of starvation, small pox, or got killed at "battles" like Wounded Knee would be ready to give up after a few years.  The British did a similar thing against the Boers in Africa.  The honest truth is that the US lost in Vietnam because it wasn't willing to kill innocent civilians and destroy the Vietcong's base of support, and wasn't willing to pump enough GI's in the country to win the humanitarian way.

I can totally believe the "mother grizzly" analogy put forth in this story. 

Not to argue, but while mother grizzlies are definitely dangerous to humans, they're not more dangerous or deadlier than their male counterparts.  Male Brown Bears regularly practice Infanticide (killing of bear cubs) in order to make the their mothers sexually productive again, and if the female resists too much, she is often killed and eaten as well.



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Reply #51 on: May 30, 2008, 10:49:49 PM

  I thought, all else being equal, it was the side with the shorter hair that wins:

"Think about it! Why did the US cavalry beat the Indian nation? Short back and sides versus girly-hippie locks. The Cavaliers and the Roundheads, 1-0 to the pudding-basins. Vietnam, crew-cuts both sides, no score draw."

The US Calvary defeated the various Indian nations in the way that most nations past and present end up defeating an insurgent rebellion: i.e. bribing the friendlies and committing genocide against the rest.  Against tribes that could actually field enough troops to do some damage (like the Sioux), the Calvary wiped out their main food supply (the Buffalo) and rounded up any civilians they could find into Reservations (i.e. concentration camps).  Those that didn't die of starvation, small pox, or got killed at "battles" like Wounded Knee would be ready to give up after a few years.  The British did a similar thing against the Boers in Africa.  The honest truth is that the US lost in Vietnam because it wasn't willing to kill innocent civilians and destroy the Vietcong's base of support, and wasn't willing to pump enough GI's in the country to win the humanitarian way.

  It was a quote that I was hoping someone would recognize, not my personal beleifs. The comment about simpler uniforms made me think of it, which made me laugh, and this being a place where science fiction fans gather I figured someone would get it.
 
edited for spelling
« Last Edit: May 31, 2008, 12:20:33 AM by Void Munashii »

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qwints

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Reply #52 on: May 30, 2008, 11:41:01 PM
Wow, I re-watched Red Dwarf over the last year and I didn't recognize that quote. Great show.

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Reply #53 on: May 31, 2008, 01:22:46 AM
I can totally believe the "mother grizzly" analogy put forth in this story. 
Not to argue, but while mother grizzlies are definitely dangerous to humans, they're not more dangerous or deadlier than their male counterparts.  Male Brown Bears regularly practice Infanticide (killing of bear cubs) in order to make the their mothers sexually productive again, and if the female resists too much, she is often killed and eaten as well.
I wasn't making points about bears, I was making a point about my mother and her ability to defend her offspring.

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Reply #54 on: May 31, 2008, 10:49:33 AM
This story had a '70s feel, to me.
It also was not the sort of story that I'd "point at when I say SF". Rather more like the ST:tOS episodes that were a reflection of current affairs.
There was a not-too-original premise, with a little bit of a twist, but the twist was not enough to make up for what felt like a hastily-assembled middle and ending of the story. Or maybe that the story was just a vehicle for the premise, which of itself was not engaging enough. Something like that.  :-\
Certainly no chills.

I loved Maia's reading though.

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Reply #55 on: May 31, 2008, 02:30:38 PM
I only just got around to listening to this one last night, and having listened to the Podcastle episode "Wisteria" a couple of days ago, that's two Whitaker readings in the same week.  I like her.  :)

(I also enjoyed the story, but I'm not the most critical reader nor the go-to guy for in-depth analysis.  I was the guy in English class who said things like "I didn't see the great metaphysical struggle between the lesbian socialists and the zen imperialists representing the War in Heaven.  It was just a story about a girl walking to the store to buy some milk."

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Reply #56 on: May 31, 2008, 02:44:06 PM
This story reminded me of an anime, Haibane Renmei.  you have a bunch of people who come gether who have no idea why they are there, they only have vague distorted memories.  There is this character Reki, who has been there longer than the others, and acts like a mother for all of them.  At any rate, just watch it.  Not about war though... more... erm.... well people with wings and halos >_>...aaaanyway
(google, google)

By Yoshitoshi ABe?  The guy behind Serial Experiments: Lain?  I'm so there!

... or would be, if NetFlix had it in their catalog.  :(

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Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #57 on: May 31, 2008, 05:16:21 PM
Something someone said much earlier on about the Government trying to get "the Method" got me thinking about conspiracy theories in general.  Specifically, it made me think about how frequently we all seem to be looking for a "Magic Bullet" kind of answer to complex problems when the REAL answer is simply a combination of hard work, patience, and nurturing attention.

I thought it was a little silly for Rowena to start thinking of her "Method" in those terms; as something definite to be protected.  From what I remember of the text of the story, she was perfectly aware of the fact that it was her own sense of balance in discipline and guidance that was making it possible for these veterans to recover from their mental injuries.  So, logically she *shouldn't* have reacted the way she did - because she should have known that her "Method" wasn't something that could be taken away from her.  On the other hand, I do think her reactions were logical, considering that it was the interference into her domain and the threat to that balance that she was really reacting to.

As for the whole "feminist Grrl-power" idea... we self-aware beings (assuming everyone in the forum belongs to that group) tend to look at groupings as absolute.  Men vs. Women is very popular; however, we have a hard time grasping the fact that within each group, there are other sliding scales and degrees that overlap between the groups.  Logical subsets of the two groups are not mutually exclusive; there are strong Men and weak Men, as well as strong and weak Women.  Men tend to be physically more durable than Women; this does not equate to "Men are stronger than Women".

Since this is SF, I don't have a problem accepting the premise that these women could be augmented to the point that it was detrimental to use male soldiers.  I don't think this story was about men vs. women.  I do think the story was about the need for our society to place as much importance on nurturing those we have twisted and damaged as we do on figuring out how to twist and damage them.

Edit: THAT is where the chills come in, by the way.  If you don't find it chilling that we spend trillions on turning people into killing machines and NOTHING on turning them back into functioning humans, then you aren't paying attention.

Edit 2: the Quickening - addressed slightly broader group to satisfy Russell
« Last Edit: May 31, 2008, 05:59:28 PM by Tango Alpha Delta »

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Reply #58 on: May 31, 2008, 05:49:22 PM
... we humans (assuming everyone in the forum belongs to that group)

Doesn't anyone look at the avatars?  It's all you white male humans thinking everyone is just like them.  I think I've had just about enough of this attitude.



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Reply #59 on: May 31, 2008, 06:00:44 PM
... we humans (assuming everyone in the forum belongs to that group)

Doesn't anyone look at the avatars?  It's all you white male humans thinking everyone is just like them.  I think I've had just about enough of this attitude.

Sorry... I just hope you're self-aware enough to be satisfied with that.  ;)

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Reply #60 on: May 31, 2008, 06:45:25 PM

Edit: THAT is where the chills come in, by the way.  If you don't find it chilling that we spend trillions on turning people into killing machines and NOTHING on turning them back into functioning humans, then you aren't paying attention.


War is an insane situation. "War make a man insane by civilian standards. When the man come back, he may return to civilian norms again. After a while." From "Introduction: Welcome to the War Zone", book "The Military Dimension Mark II", by David Drake.

I think the stories, "Tideline" and "Elites" go very well together, how we are remembered and how we are treated when we return.

Steve in the intro mentions "The Forever War", By Joe Haldeman, who served in Vietnam. I quoted David Drake who also served in Vietnam and writes about his experiences from that time in science fiction. I think a grimmer side, Hammer Slammers, but others as well. His characters are not sane by civilian standards.




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Reply #61 on: May 31, 2008, 07:22:28 PM
Steve in the intro mentions "The Forever War", By Joe Haldeman, who served in Vietnam.

Not exactly.  I didn't recall any explicit reference to The Forever War so I went back and listened.  The first thing Steve says in the outro is "This isn't the first work of science fiction to take a hard look at the way we treat veterans.  Joe Haldeman's practically made his career on it."

But I do like The Forever War and consider it the companion volume to Heinlein's Starship Troopers.  Or, at least, whenever somebody tells me they're reading Starship Troopers I always recommend that they read The Forever War as soon as they finish.

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Reply #62 on: June 01, 2008, 12:22:50 AM
[snip]
We can speculate that the government got to them, but that's all cotton-fluff conspiracy so far as the end of the story is concerned. The main character accepted that they were right, that the method could be used on a grand scale to help more Elites out. But she did have doubts. Were they founded on her emotional instabilities, or was there something to them?
[snip] 
There is definitely something to Weena's doubts, because if the government was really on the level, they would not be sending fake Elites into the house to collect DNA samples. If you are trying to gain someone's trust, committing such an outright violation of that trust is not something that will convince them that you are trustworthy.
Up until the end, I was thinking that the gummint's hidden agenda was not to find an effective way to rehabilitate the vets for the sake of healing them, but rather to make it easier to gain public acceptance of the way they messed with their heads in the first place. Something along the lines of "well, they'll end up perfectly normal after the tour of duty, so no harm - no foul". Doctoring the spin instead of the patients.
But that didn't happen.

[snip]
THAT is where the chills come in, by the way.  If you don't find it chilling that we spend trillions on turning people into killing machines and NOTHING on turning them back into functioning humans, then you aren't paying attention.

*leans forward in rocking chair and gestures with pipestem*
I've been watching the nightly news off and on since the early '60s. The novelty of obscenely high offe... er, defense budgets and PTSD has long since worn off, for me. "The chill is gone", you might say.

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Reply #63 on: June 01, 2008, 03:28:07 PM
[snip]
THAT is where the chills come in, by the way.  If you don't find it chilling that we spend trillions on turning people into killing machines and NOTHING on turning them back into functioning humans, then you aren't paying attention.

*leans forward in rocking chair and gestures with pipestem*
I've been watching the nightly news off and on since the early '60s. The novelty of obscenely high offe... er, defense budgets and PTSD has long since worn off, for me. "The chill is gone", you might say.
[/quote]

Well, grampy, I figgers it like this; y'all done did some fine work, keepin' the faith an' all, and now it's my turn.  We gotta keep beatin' the drum and playin' the Woody Guthrie songs 'til someone up in Warshington starts to pay some mind.  Let's jest say there's a good reason the blues is still playin'...

</stupid accent>

Seriously, though, it's not a problem that ever goes away.  We ebb and flow our way through history, and each generation allows itself to be outraged anew without effectively passing the lesson along to the next one.  Despite our shoddy treatment of WWI veterans, Vietnam vets, and now the guys suffering their way through Walter Reed, there's always another crop of youngsters behind them believing the recruiting sergeants' B.S. about honor, duty, and integrity.  (Apparently only qualities they look for in others... since they seem to evaporate when a servicemember actually tries to claim a benefit.)

</rant>

Okay, now I'll just go back to being entertained.   ::)


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Planish

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Reply #64 on: June 02, 2008, 05:14:08 AM
Seriously, though, it's not a problem that ever goes away.  We ebb and flow our way through history, and each generation allows itself to be outraged anew without effectively passing the lesson along to the next one.  Despite our shoddy treatment of WWI veterans, Vietnam vets, and now the guys suffering their way through Walter Reed, there's always another crop of youngsters behind them believing the recruiting sergeants' B.S. about honor, duty, and integrity.  (Apparently only qualities they look for in others... since they seem to evaporate when a servicemember actually tries to claim a benefit.)
I hear ya. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulce_et_Decorum_Est

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Reply #65 on: June 02, 2008, 05:42:52 PM
Neat story.  I work a lot with VA hospitals and women's shelters/halfway houses for my day job and so this story really hit home with me.  Spousal or child abuse victims and people dealing with addictions often have a very similiar type of PTSD as veterans.  There are women/people like this all over our world, learning and struggling to be resilient to the circumstances of their past.  They aren't all malicious bio-enhanced super weapons, but still.

I'd like to see more non profit organizations in science fiction.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 04:24:13 PM by goatkeeper »



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Reply #66 on: June 03, 2008, 03:10:57 PM
Up until the end, I was thinking that the gummint's hidden agenda was not to find an effective way to rehabilitate the vets for the sake of healing them, but rather to make it easier to gain public acceptance of the way they messed with their heads in the first place. Something along the lines of "well, they'll end up perfectly normal after the tour of duty, so no harm - no foul". Doctoring the spin instead of the patients.
But that didn't happen.

  I viewed it as more the government wanting to learn how to manipulate the Elites further, to make them more controllable. If they can treat the Elites once they are too old to be useful and prevent them from doing awful and embarrassing things once back in normal society, all the better, but the real goal is to learn how to make them even more dangerous in battle while still being controllable.

  In any case, if their world is anything like our, when the vets do act out in normal society it would not need to be spun very much. When a vet does something now (like killing themselves or someone else), it's just a small local news story that runs somewhere between a politician speaking at a high school graduation and the segment where they test infomercial items to see if they really work. If no one pays attention to the problem, there is no real need to spin it.

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Reply #67 on: June 04, 2008, 05:35:33 AM
If no one pays attention to the problem, there is no real need to spin it.

That has to be the single saddest thing I've heard all week.
Mostly because it's so true.

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Reply #68 on: June 04, 2008, 03:57:39 PM
I thought I remembered something about women having a stronger drive to defend things they loved than men.  Maybe I made that up in my head though.
You may be right. But even given that, I got the impression they didn't look very hard to see if men had similarly effective triggers that could be exploited.

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Reply #69 on: June 05, 2008, 03:05:39 PM
If no one pays attention to the problem, there is no real need to spin it.

That has to be the single saddest thing I've heard all week.
Mostly because it's so true.

  Well, I am known around work for being a ray of sunshine. I'm glad I was here to cheer up your day  ;)

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Reply #70 on: June 05, 2008, 03:21:04 PM

You may be right. But even given that, I got the impression they didn't look very hard to see if men had similarly effective triggers that could be exploited.

"They're gonna take your SUV, your beer, and your free porn.  Go kill 'em."

You left out ESPN.

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Reply #71 on: June 11, 2008, 03:03:09 PM
I thought this was an oddly serendipitous story:

http://io9.com/5015317/a-parasite-that-induces-love-in-its-host

A Brazilian wasp has evolved a very peculiar mind-control power in order to reproduce: It induces love in a species of caterpillar. :)



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Reply #72 on: June 11, 2008, 03:46:11 PM
I thought this was an oddly serendipitous story:

http://io9.com/5015317/a-parasite-that-induces-love-in-its-host

A Brazilian wasp has evolved a very peculiar mind-control power in order to reproduce: It induces love in a species of caterpillar. :)

Disturbing isn't the right word.  Horrifying?   I need to get me some of the wasp mind-control power.

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Reply #73 on: June 11, 2008, 08:24:21 PM



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Reply #74 on: June 20, 2008, 12:43:06 PM
This was first class. I have a friend who was in the UK Special Forces and I have burned a copy of this onto CD for him. It was brilliantly read and a first class story.

Excellent