Author Topic: Designer Babies (EP127: Results)  (Read 16891 times)

stePH

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Reply #25 on: June 10, 2008, 12:38:30 AM
I don't know how one could give eugenics a good name.  Everyone is entitled to the joy of having children.  It is a basic right.  To say eugenics (or selective breeding of humans) is a good thing and that some people should not be able to have children is very, very distrubing.
Eugenics doesn't necessarily mean saying that a given subset of people cannot or should not have children (known as negative eugenics). Any attempt to improve the natural stock of humanity is eugenic. It could be entirely a matter of encouraging "the right sort" of people to have more children than they otherwise would (positive eugenics); most eugenicists advocate a mix of the two approaches, but neither is required.

It could also be a matter of genetically manipulating foetuses so that they have desirable traits that they would otherwise lack; the basic idea behind this thread is eugenics even without any central authority deciding who should or should not have children. This is especially so if there is a central authority deciding which traits should be eliminated or encouraged (which makes sense for things like susceptibility to disease), rather than everything being in the hands of the parents; in the latter case, I'm not sure that it would exactly count as eugenics (can society as a whole be an agent?), but the result would be much the same.
When I look for a definition of eugenics there is wide range out there.  Most of them seem to deal with selective breeding, which is what I found so shocking about his comment.  I guess I would have to hear stePH's definition of eugenics.  If it is "some people shouldn't be allowed to breed" then I have a serious issue with it for several reasons.  If stePH's take on eugenics is, as you pose, reducing susceptibility to disease through genetic manupulation of fetuses that's a different matter.

Okay, I knew I wouldn't be winning many friends by posting to this thread, but I ignored my better judgment and did it anyway.  At risk of digging myself in further:

It does bother me that people have children at high risk of birth defects or congenital debilitating diseases.  Too often the family is ill-equipped to provide the extra care these children require, and society at large (i.e., taxpayers) has to pick up the slack.  This also goes for infertile couples who have Frankenlitters (like the McCaugheys in Iowa) that they can't really afford to raise.  I think their publicity-and-charity gravy train pulled out of station some time ago ... I haven't been hearing about them in the news lately.

But voicing my (admittedly irrelevant) disapproval is about as far as I can go.  Disallowing these people to breed is a small step away from discussions about slippery ropes or whatever that lead to saying "if you're in poverty you can't have children, even if they're healthy."  If there were a way to correct congenital defects or at least minimize their risks, it would be a better solution than simply forbidding these people to breed.

As for the "basic right" of the "joy of having children", another thing that bothers me is people who bear children that they neglect or abuse to the point that the state has to intervene and take the children away from the parents (and incidentally placing a further burden on society).  Nothing prevents these people from having more children to neglect or abuse, while those who want to adopt a child have to jump through all kinds of hoops to even be considered.  I don't expect to be understood or sympathized with on this, but I consider such people prime candidates for mandatory and permanent sterilization.

I don't like children -- I think I've made that point already.  Still, I also don't think they're any more or less undeserving of needless suffering than adults or animals are, and I have a low opinion of people who inflict such suffering upon them.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 12:40:08 AM by stePH »

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Windup

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Reply #26 on: June 10, 2008, 04:47:31 AM

When I look for a definition of eugenics there is wide range out there.  Most of them seem to deal with selective breeding, which is what I found so shocking about his comment.  I guess I would have to hear stePH's definition of eugenics.  If it is "some people shouldn't be allowed to breed" then I have a serious issue with it for several reasons.  If stePH's take on eugenics is, as you pose, reducing susceptibility to disease through genetic manupulation of fetuses that's a different matter.


First, with regard to eugenics, I find it a rather dubious notion.  The "success" of breeding programs for plants and animals comes largly from a very narrow definition of success.  A North American wild turkey is clever (for a bird), adaptable, quick, strong for its size, and tenacious.  It's domesticated cousin can't fly, can't reproduce without human help, can get lost in a farmyard, and is generally acknowledged as the dumbest of the common North American domestic animals.  (Barely beating out sheep, another intensively-bred species.) However, it's considered "successful" because it will generate more white breast meat per pound of grain in a shorter time than its predicessors. 

I like Thanksgiving dinner as much as the next guy -- maybe more -- so score that as a "win."  But I can't imagine applying a similarly narrow definition of "superior" to humans, and in the absence of such a narrow definition, I can't see eugenics doing much in the way of "improvement." One of the Iron Laws of Genetics is that improvements in a selected-for trait come at the expense of non-selected traits -- like our friend the turkey, who's good for producing breast meat, but not much else.  And the more traits you try to select for, the longer it takes to reach a goal, and the harder it is to overcome the "friction" of regression to the mean. 

When you consider a propostion as complex as what it takes to create a "good human" -- I believe that's been debated in the West at least back to the time of Plato, and probably much further -- I have trouble with the notion that eugenics offers much hope in that direction.  Especially when you consider that the genetic component of important traits like empathy, intelligence, emotional flexibility, etc. is largely unknown.   

For these reasons, I think "eugenics" in the sense of trying to control the traits in a population via conventional breeding is a dead end, and always was.

All that being said, I'm sure we'll deploy some of the newer, non-conventional genetic tools as soon as we think we're ready. Which will probably be way sooner than we actually are.  Since there is probably going to be widespread acceptence of the idea we should "fix" or prevent disease and disability, that's probably where we'll start.  Over time, as capability improves, the definitions of "disease" and "disability" will become increasingly elastic.  I'm sure that something like my total inability to carry a tune will eventually be defined as a "disability" in need of correction -- at least if it has a genetic component and a fix is available.  We're certainly seeing that today with things like height, with some parents seeking drugs originally intended for people with severe disorders to boost the height of their kids from say the upper 5-foot range to over six, because they think it will improve their prospects in life.

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Chodon

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Reply #27 on: June 10, 2008, 11:57:45 AM
I think windup expressed my thoughts on eugenics better than I ever could.  Bravo!

The only real black and white of genetic manipulation (for me) would be for the treatment of genetic disorders: Downs Syndrome, Cystic Fibrosis, etc. 

Okay, I knew I wouldn't be winning many friends by posting to this thread, but I ignored my better judgment and did it anyway.  At risk of digging myself in further:

It does bother me that people have children at high risk of birth defects or congenital debilitating diseases.  Too often the family is ill-equipped to provide the extra care these children require, and society at large (i.e., taxpayers) has to pick up the slack.  This also goes for infertile couples who have Frankenlitters (like the McCaugheys in Iowa) that they can't really afford to raise.  I think their publicity-and-charity gravy train pulled out of station some time ago ... I haven't been hearing about them in the news lately.

But voicing my (admittedly irrelevant) disapproval is about as far as I can go.  Disallowing these people to breed is a small step away from discussions about slippery ropes or whatever that lead to saying "if you're in poverty you can't have children, even if they're healthy."  If there were a way to correct congenital defects or at least minimize their risks, it would be a better solution than simply forbidding these people to breed.

As for the "basic right" of the "joy of having children", another thing that bothers me is people who bear children that they neglect or abuse to the point that the state has to intervene and take the children away from the parents (and incidentally placing a further burden on society).  Nothing prevents these people from having more children to neglect or abuse, while those who want to adopt a child have to jump through all kinds of hoops to even be considered.  I don't expect to be understood or sympathized with on this, but I consider such people prime candidates for mandatory and permanent sterilization.

I don't like children -- I think I've made that point already.  Still, I also don't think they're any more or less undeserving of needless suffering than adults or animals are, and I have a low opinion of people who inflict such suffering upon them.
Thanks for explaining your position, stePH.  I would be lying if I said I never thought the same thing about sterilization of negligent parents.  I can totally see how you could get to that position and I really think it adds a lot of weight to your argument that you are living your beliefs by never planning on having children.  However, I think the cost of forced sterilization is too high.  It assumes people will never change and will always continue to be negligent parents.  Sure, the vast amount of information out there says they are going to keep doing it, but if just one person who would have been sterilized turns out to be a good parent, it's not worth it.  Not to mention the fact that it would be impossible to enforce a policy like this fairly.  Race, income, and social status would always be factors in the decision and then there's the slippery slope you mentioned.  What is the right income to be able to have children?  When can they be taken care of?  Should one parent have to stay home?

You will be hard-pressed to find someone more against taxes than I am.  However, educating and caring for children is one thing I do not mind supporting through taxes, and I volunteer my own time to support also.  It's become cliche, but children really are our future.  We have to leave this place to them sometime and I think we should do everything we can to prepare them for that responsibility.  I'm mostly speaking of picking up the slack if some parents can't shoulder the responsibility.  What alternative do we have?  If we don't do eveything we can for our children then all this awesome stuff we listen to on EP is never going to happen (in fact, things could very well turn out like a PP story!). 

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birdless

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Reply #28 on: June 17, 2008, 01:42:59 AM
This is one of those threads that are intensely interesting to me, but hard for me to post in. I think i pretty much hold with everything Windup posted, but it does puzzle me that in a nation where we are required to register to vote, licenses to drive, etc., there are no requirements to meet to have children. Now, I am in no way suggesting that there should be, but these wretches who abuse and neglect their children... it just makes me so angry that nothing can be done to prevent it!



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Reply #29 on: June 17, 2008, 09:24:04 AM
This is one of those threads that are intensely interesting to me, but hard for me to post in. I think i pretty much hold with everything Windup posted, but it does puzzle me that in a nation where we are required to register to vote, licenses to drive, etc., there are no requirements to meet to have children. Now, I am in no way suggesting that there should be, but these wretches who abuse and neglect their children... it just makes me so angry that nothing can be done to prevent it!

To start with better sex-ed would help.  Many of the people who abuse their kids never meant to have them when they did.  Helping these people to not have kidds until they want them is probably the biggest thing we can do.



birdless

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Reply #30 on: June 17, 2008, 05:30:43 PM
To start with better sex-ed would help.  Many of the people who abuse their kids never meant to have them when they did.  Helping these people to not have kidds until they want them is probably the biggest thing we can do.
I've never looked for any facts and statistics on sex ed, but it's just hard for me to understand how or why better sex ed would make a significant difference (I assume you mean in schools). I mean, it's not rocket science. What am i missing?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 05:32:52 PM by birdless »



Darwinist

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Reply #31 on: June 17, 2008, 06:10:15 PM
To start with better sex-ed would help.  Many of the people who abuse their kids never meant to have them when they did.  Helping these people to not have kidds until they want them is probably the biggest thing we can do.
I've never looked for any facts and statistics on sex ed, but it's just hard for me to understand how or why better sex ed would make a significant difference (I assume you mean in schools). I mean, it's not rocket science. What am i missing?

Should we be talking more about birth control?  I know it is controversial - with the Catholic anti-birth control stance and all - but people are horney and are going to to it eventually.    I would think some family planning classes should be taught along with family finances - how to balance a check book, budget, how not to use credit cards, etc. 

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


stePH

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Reply #32 on: June 17, 2008, 06:53:30 PM
To start with better sex-ed would help.  Many of the people who abuse their kids never meant to have them when they did.  Helping these people to not have kidds until they want them is probably the biggest thing we can do.

but but but ... sex-ed and availability of birth control will just promote irresponsible promiscuity, and grade-school kids will start fucking like rabbits! You don't want that, do you?

Also, condoms just don't work either as a contraceptive nor in preventing the transmission of disease!  It says so on government health websites, and they wouldn't lie, right?

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Reply #33 on: June 17, 2008, 07:19:35 PM
To start with better sex-ed would help.  Many of the people who abuse their kids never meant to have them when they did.  Helping these people to not have kidds until they want them is probably the biggest thing we can do.
I've never looked for any facts and statistics on sex ed, but it's just hard for me to understand how or why better sex ed would make a significant difference (I assume you mean in schools). I mean, it's not rocket science. What am i missing?

Sex-Ed means teaching birth control.  California told Bush to screw his Abstinence only sex-ed funding.  They taught "everything" and within four years the teenage prenancy rate in CA had dropped around 40%.  Those teens with the knowledge become twenty-somethings and still have the knowledge.



birdless

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Reply #34 on: June 17, 2008, 09:31:54 PM
Sex-Ed means teaching birth control.  California told Bush to screw his Abstinence only sex-ed funding.  They taught "everything" and within four years the teenage prenancy rate in CA had dropped around 40%.  Those teens with the knowledge become twenty-somethings and still have the knowledge.
Yeah, i realize sex-ed encompasses birth control (oh, maybe that was more for Dar's comment). But, again... I'm just failing to see how complicated it is to understand how a condom works and what it does. I'm not trying to be snarky... I'm honestly just a little befuddled. And I know that condoms aren't the only form of birth control, I'm just picking that one as an example.

Side question: And why is teaching abstinence so "wrong"? I remained abstinent until I got married at 25. Or is it that some people have issues with "abstinence only 'sex ed'"?



stePH

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Reply #35 on: June 17, 2008, 10:35:07 PM
Side question: And why is teaching abstinence so "wrong"? I remained abstinent until I got married at 25. Or is it that some people have issues with "abstinence only 'sex ed'"?
II think it's the latter.  "Abstinence-only sex-education" is a contradiction in terms.  The point of education is to inform people, not keep them ignorant.

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wintermute

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Reply #36 on: June 17, 2008, 10:42:07 PM
Because, if you don't tell teenagers about sex, they'll never find out about it until they get married.

Or, alternatively, they might just learn "you can't get pregnant if you're standing up" as well as they learn "you're unlikely to get pregnant if you use a condom".

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eytanz

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Reply #37 on: June 17, 2008, 10:44:38 PM
Side question: And why is teaching abstinence so "wrong"? I remained abstinent until I got married at 25. Or is it that some people have issues with "abstinence only 'sex ed'"?
II think it's the latter.  "Abstinence-only sex-education" is a contradiction in terms.  The point of education is to inform people, not keep them ignorant.

Exactly. I have no problems - indeed, I welcome - any sex ed system that includes abstience, and explains that it is the best method for avoiding STDs and unwanted pregnancies, as long as it also explains that if you have sex, you need to make sure it's safe sex, and explain how to make sure of that.

Abstinence-only sex-"education" means - in both practice and design - that people are told not to have sex, and no provision is made for explaining the difference between safe and unsafe sex. In many actual cases, it means that people are explicitly told that all sex is equally unsafe. Which means that once someone brought up on that system chooses to have sex, they will not avoid the risks as they will believe that there is no point in doing so.

As to the question of how complicated it is to figure out how to use a condom - A - it's far harder than it sounds. Did you know that there are people who will re-use condoms? Or people that will use a condom on a flaccid penis (or worse, allow their condom to grow flaccid inside a woman while still wearing a condom), not realizing that it is not effective if there isn't a full erection? and more importantly, B - the basic use of a condom is pretty simple to figure out once you've seen a condom. Abstinence-only programs mean that many teenagers never see one until long after they start having sex.



wintermute

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Reply #38 on: June 17, 2008, 10:47:21 PM
For the record, I don't think anyone has a problem with teenagers staying abstinent. But everything we know says that absinence-only sex-ed simply doesn't work. Honestly teaching kids about sex massively decreases the number of teen pregnancies and STDs. A certain percentage of teenagers are going to have sex, regardless of policy, and they should be able to make a properly informed decision about it.

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birdless

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Reply #39 on: June 18, 2008, 12:25:42 AM
Exactly. I have no problems - indeed, I welcome - any sex ed system that includes abstience, and explains that it is the best method for avoiding STDs and unwanted pregnancies, as long as it also explains that if you have sex, you need to make sure it's safe sex, and explain how to make sure of that.

Abstinence-only sex-"education" means - in both practice and design - that people are told not to have sex, and no provision is made for explaining the difference between safe and unsafe sex. In many actual cases, it means that people are explicitly told that all sex is equally unsafe. Which means that once someone brought up on that system chooses to have sex, they will not avoid the risks as they will believe that there is no point in doing so.

As to the question of how complicated it is to figure out how to use a condom - A - it's far harder than it sounds. Did you know that there are people who will re-use condoms? Or people that will use a condom on a flaccid penis (or worse, allow their condom to grow flaccid inside a woman while still wearing a condom), not realizing that it is not effective if there isn't a full erection? and more importantly, B - the basic use of a condom is pretty simple to figure out once you've seen a condom. Abstinence-only programs mean that many teenagers never see one until long after they start having sex.
Ah, okay. I support what you said. And I honestly didn't realize that there would be so much ignorance in regards to a condom.