Author Topic: What the Frack is Up with Battlestar Galactica? (spoilers)  (Read 30394 times)

stePH

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I thought the initial Skiffy miniseries and the first two seasons were simply awesome sci-fi, second only in my mind to Babylon 5.  But after catching up with the DVD releases and getting the third season in real time (well, TiVo-time), I think it's been in decline since the fleet left New Caprica.

Now we're halfway through the fourth (and final) season, they've reached Earth and apparently found nothing but ruins.  And now we have another long wait of unspecified duration before the final ten episodes conclude the series.

What the frack?

I think a large part of the problem is Ronald Moore pulling it out of his ass as he goes along.  A great deal of what made Babylon 5 so awesome is that JMS always had a course and destination planned for the series, and despite a few bumps in the road and a detour or two, he pretty much got to where he wanted to go.  This "final five Cylons" business has always seemed like a mid-course correction to me, and I doubt even Moore knows who the fifth one is yet.

Anybody else have any thoughts?

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Heradel

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Reply #1 on: June 18, 2008, 12:46:35 AM
I thought the initial Skiffy miniseries and the first two seasons were simply awesome sci-fi, second only in my mind to Babylon 5.  But after catching up with the DVD releases and getting the third season in real time (well, TiVo-time), I think it's been in decline since the fleet left New Caprica.

Now we're halfway through the fourth (and final) season, they've reached Earth and apparently found nothing but ruins.  And now we have another long wait of unspecified duration before the final ten episodes conclude the series.

What the frack?

I think a large part of the problem is Ronald Moore pulling it out of his ass as he goes along.  A great deal of what made Babylon 5 so awesome is that JMS always had a course and destination planned for the series, and despite a few bumps in the road and a detour or two, he pretty much got to where he wanted to go.  This "final five Cylons" business has always seemed like a mid-course correction to me, and I doubt even Moore knows who the fifth one is yet.

Anybody else have any thoughts?

RDM's said in the podcast that they had the beginning written and the end was sketched out pretty well, but wasn't set in stone up until it was written (the last episode had it's first words penned a few weeks ago). I liked the last episode - It was probably the best since 33. And I wasn't really expecting a Disney-coloured happy ending, that wouldn't have fit the tone of the series (or the fact that there are ten episodes left and ten episodes of paradise is boring). And it's not the storyteller's fault that the final season is broken into two chunks of ten, the network (blaming the writer's strike) pulled that on them.

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Liminal

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Reply #2 on: June 18, 2008, 02:08:45 AM
I think a large part of the problem is Ronald Moore pulling it out of his ass as he goes along.  A great deal of what made Babylon 5 so awesome is that JMS always had a course and destination planned for the series, and despite a few bumps in the road and a detour or two, he pretty much got to where he wanted to go.  This "final five Cylons" business has always seemed like a mid-course correction to me, and I doubt even Moore knows who the fifth one is yet.
Anybody else have any thoughts?

I've never really understood why it's so bad for someone writing in a serial format to make things up as he/she goes along. Moore and his writers aren't just pulling it out of their asses, but making narrative decisions based on the characters, a comprehensive show "bible" that outlines the universe of BSG in a great deal of detail, and any number of other elements of the story. Sure they make mistakes and sometimes end up with episodes that are weak or story lines that don't quite fulfill their potential, but we knew that there were twelve models from the beginning and never saw more than seven, so I'm not sure how that is a mid-course correction.

I agree that the first season was the strongest in terms of consistency and I blame that on the fact that they jumped from 13 episodes to 20 . . . and after getting a feel for the rhythm of British series (which tend to have season of 6 - 13 episodes), I think that the optimal length of a season for a drama like BSG is probably around 13 episodes. But I think things have been pretty good this season, with the last few episodes being quite strong and returning our focus on the characters and their choices--which has always been BSG's main strength. Call me a sucker, but I totally trust Moore & Co. to pull off the endgame of this series with some kick-ass story-telling!

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stePH

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Reply #3 on: June 18, 2008, 01:40:21 PM
RDM's said in the podcast that they had the beginning written and the end was sketched out pretty well, but wasn't set in stone up until it was written (the last episode had it's first words penned a few weeks ago). I liked the last episode - It was probably the best since 33. And I wasn't really expecting a Disney-coloured happy ending, that wouldn't have fit the tone of the series (or the fact that there are ten episodes left and ten episodes of paradise is boring). And it's not the storyteller's fault that the final season is broken into two chunks of ten, the network (blaming the writer's strike) pulled that on them.

Well, I don't know what I was expecting, but "Disney-colored happy ending" wasn't it.  I also wasn't expecting to spend ten episodes on Earth; I thought they'd do maybe two or at most three.

From almost the beginning of the show's run, we've been told of the Cylons "... and they have a plan."  It wasn't long before some, myself included, began adding "and when Ron Moore figures out what it is, they'll be the first to know."  Does anybody have any idea what "the Cylon plan" was?  Because whatever it was seems to have gone completely off the rails; for evidence I submit the civil war and the reconciliation with humanity.

I've never really understood why it's so bad for someone writing in a serial format to make things up as he/she goes along.
It definitely helps to have at least an ending in mind.  For evidence I submit The X Files and Neon Genesis Evangelion.


Moore and his writers aren't just pulling it out of their asses, but making narrative decisions based on the characters, a comprehensive show "bible" that outlines the universe of BSG in a great deal of detail, and any number of other elements of the story. Sure they make mistakes and sometimes end up with episodes that are weak or story lines that don't quite fulfill their potential, but we knew that there were twelve models from the beginning and never saw more than seven, so I'm not sure how that is a mid-course correction.

Yes, we always knew that there were twelve models.  I read somewhere a year or two back that by the time we had seen seven, Moore & Co. realized that introducing a new character late in the series was essentially telegraphing "ALERT!  CYLON HERE!"  so they had to figure something else out to do about the remaining five.  I realize that this might carry more weight if I could cite the source, but I can't.  Deal.  I still maintain that if Moore even knows who #5 is (by now he'd better) he's only recently come up with it.  Unless it's Starbuck in which case he's known that it's her ever since he blew up her Viper near the end of season 3.

I still think the series started to lose focus in the third season and I don't really feel it's regained it.   

And what the frack is up with Bob Dylan?

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eytanz

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Reply #4 on: June 18, 2008, 04:04:25 PM
It definitely helps to have at least an ending in mind.  For evidence I submit The X Files and Neon Genesis Evangelion.
I believe Evangelion had an ending in mind. It was one designed deliberately to be unsatisfying, but it was planned.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 08:51:55 PM by eytanz »



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Reply #5 on: June 18, 2008, 08:35:53 PM
I'm only sticking with BSG at this point because I know it's going to end, and because I trust the producers to wrap things up, even if they don't do so in a happy fashion.  I'm a little worn out by all of it.  Like on ER and Heroes, I feel the plots are spreading too far apart, and bringing everyone together onto the surface of Earth wasn't enough to solve that problem.

As to the fifth Cylon... Peter David posited that it's the Galactica itself.  I'm not buying that.

I had a nice discussion with a coworker about the Tigh/Dualla/Gaeta scene on the bridge.  Either it was left in to show Tigh's humanity, and his insecurity with being a Cylon (let me be nice so people know I'm human), or it was indicative of Gaeta or Dualla being the fifth.  But I don't think it's either of them, and neither did my coworker.  No one really cares about Dualla anymore, and Gaeta's too easy a choice.

I think we can safely rule out the Adamas, Starbuck, Roslin, Helo, Cottle, the entire Quorum of Twelve, and the minor characters.  Unfortunately, that doesn't leave a lot of people.  So either the fifth is someone we haven't met yet (which I doubt) or it's someone we met in an earlier episode.

It would be interesting to me if it turned out to be Cain, and there's a Cain on Earth already.

Beyond that, I got nothin'.

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stePH

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Reply #6 on: June 18, 2008, 08:45:13 PM
I've never really understood why it's so bad for someone writing in a serial format to make things up as he/she goes along.
It definitely helps to have at least an ending in mind.  For evidence I submit The X Files and Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Oh, and how could I forget The Dark Tower?

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Heradel

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Reply #7 on: June 19, 2008, 01:25:57 AM
As to the fifth Cylon... Peter David posited that it's the Galactica itself.  I'm not buying that.

I had a nice discussion with a coworker about the Tigh/Dualla/Gaeta scene on the bridge.  Either it was left in to show Tigh's humanity, and his insecurity with being a Cylon (let me be nice so people know I'm human), or it was indicative of Gaeta or Dualla being the fifth.  But I don't think it's either of them, and neither did my coworker.  No one really cares about Dualla anymore, and Gaeta's too easy a choice.

I think we can safely rule out the Adamas, Starbuck, Roslin, Helo, Cottle, the entire Quorum of Twelve, and the minor characters.  Unfortunately, that doesn't leave a lot of people.  So either the fifth is someone we haven't met yet (which I doubt) or it's someone we met in an earlier episode.

It would be interesting to me if it turned out to be Cain, and there's a Cain on Earth already.

Beyond that, I got nothin'.

We already have two .5 cylons.

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Liminal

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Reply #8 on: June 19, 2008, 02:22:58 AM
We already have two .5 cylons.

That's are really good point!

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williamjamesw

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Reply #9 on: June 19, 2008, 02:55:06 AM
We already have two .5 cylons.

That's are really good point!

And a third (full one)on the way.

I'll just go back to being silent again now.


stePH

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Reply #10 on: June 19, 2008, 03:17:19 AM
We already have two .5 cylons.

And a third (full one)on the way.


Totally ... what the frack is up with that?  From almost the beginning we're told that the Cylons can't breed without humans.  Hence the need to have Sharon/Eight/Athena hook up with Helo.  But if Tigh is a Cylon and he's managed to get "Caprica Six" up the duff, there goes that baby out with the bathwater.

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williamjamesw

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Reply #11 on: June 19, 2008, 03:31:40 AM
I figure that the Cylons likely have such a small gene-pool, that the ones that were aware of their own nature would avoid such close in-breeding.  Nobody informed Tigh, and Six didn't know he was "family".   :o

Of course, this is just a theory .  :-\

I'll just go back to being silent again now.


Liminal

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Reply #12 on: June 19, 2008, 07:20:28 PM
The main 7 models didn't know much about what the final five capabilities or design specs were, so I don't think the writers are throwing out any babies or bathwater - at least on that issue.

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sirana

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Reply #13 on: June 21, 2008, 03:56:19 PM
I must say I strongly disagree with stePH on this one. I watched the first season (I actually bought the dvd) and found it boring and much too militaristic for my taste. Imho the season one could be taking place on an American aircraft carrier instead of a Battlestar and there wouldn't be much differences to the characters and the story. And have I said that I don't like my fiction from a military perspective? ;-)
I didn't watch season two until I heard Joss Whedon praising Battlestar (that was about the time the strike hit), so I decided to give it another chance. Season two was ok in my book, but didn't get really good until the last episodes.
And then came the fantastic season 3, which blew me out of the water and reduced me to a slobbering fanboy. I really really love season 3 and the first half of season 4, it has excactly what pushes my buttons in a scifi-show. Both the Occupation on New Caprica and the Cylon civil war are some of my favourite storylines in any tv show.



Loz

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Reply #14 on: June 23, 2008, 09:24:53 PM
Season One has a lot of what was wrong with Season One of Lost, lots of running around to disguise very little plot movement, you could edit all that really matters between the first episode and the last down into an episode in itself without missing much on consequence, season two it finally kicks into gear although loses it's way between Admiral Cain getting shot and Lee being made the captain of the Pegasus. Season Three starts off very strongly then is just good for the rest of the season.

Season Four seems to have gone off the rails somewhat. There seems to be any number of crazy ideas being thrown at the screen with little apparent care and attention. Part of the cause of this was presumably the strike, but it's something of a mess. The writers never seemed to give proper care and attention to the fact that Cylon society consists of a near infinite number of seven models but now it's all over the place, so that the Cylon Occupation of New Caprica was run by a particular selection of skinjobs, who just happened to take Baltar off-world with them, who just happened to have a De'anna on board who went crazy over who the final five were, who happened to be the ones who took Hera, who happened to include the Six who has visions of Baltar who then decide to revolt, who just happens to include the Leoben obsessed with mentally torturing Starbuck to bring her closer to God. I really dislike that pretty much everyone except Six now is referred to by whatever name we first met them in the show, One is not called Cavil! Three is not Deanna! Why was Brunette Six called Natalie? Who knows!

Then of course, after their ship is attacked, the Cylon civil war only happens off-screen but just constantly gets referred to, while instead we get to thrill to the adventures of Lee Adama and Rollo Lampkin the crazy kingmaker. Oh, and Lee's President. It's alright to write an episode criticising the social order of the Fleet but not if you're going to decide that things can't go on without an Adama heading the military or government.

And Saul Tigh, one minute Bill Adama's fighting him for sleeping with Six, the next minute he's making him acting Admiral of the Fleet. There's a lack of consistency here.

Still, it was nice to see Colonel Kira though.



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Reply #15 on: January 17, 2009, 05:29:14 AM
Holy crap, I was bummed out about the January 16th episode.  Nothing going on with Earth, looks like they are going to leave and have more civil unrest in space (bored with that).  The Dee thing was shocking.  The Adama / Saul drunken confrontation was weird - in the blink of an eye Adama goes from a suicidal maniac to a story telling leader of the humans.   The Kara thing is mind boggling, where are they going with that?  I guess I didn't think it was a good episode.   

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slic

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Reply #16 on: January 17, 2009, 05:51:20 AM
I got the 4th season dvds on Monday and finished the last episode today.

I agree with the dissenters.  The plot was slow and almost comical.  People running around throwing others out airlocks, sleeping with Cylons (now there's no 3 cylon babies - remember when Hera was some amazing prophesized child - what's she been up to lately?)

There was all sorts of setup that seems to have been wasted.  Baltar's cult, Lee in politics, Tigh having been tortured by the Cylons only to be revealed to be one of the Five - such good fodder to tell stories about the human condition- love, power, pride, forgiveness - all we get is soap opera

The characters were so inconsistent - First Adm Adama is furious then drunk and slobbering with grief then angry reconciled - all in about 20 minutues.  Rosilin is in shock with Baltar's confession then she forgives him then she's paniced he might die then everything is fine and she's stone cold.

And what was with that lame ass way to find Earth - only the old/new viper can get the signal - that was right up with the shark jumping (or is it fridge nuking now?) cylon baby blood cure for the prez's cancer.

the special effects were awesome though.



slic

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Reply #17 on: January 17, 2009, 06:21:14 AM
oh and whatever happened to Baltar's "vision" of Six or what I thought was an awesome twist - Capria's vision of Baltar?



stePH

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Reply #18 on: January 18, 2009, 12:29:24 AM
I think the fifth is Bob Dylan.  ;D

Either that, or Anders was Bob Dylan in a former life.

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Reply #19 on: January 19, 2009, 02:06:27 PM
It definitely helps to have at least an ending in mind.  For evidence I submit The X Files and Neon Genesis Evangelion.
I believe Evangelion had an ending in mind. It was one designed deliberately to be unsatisfying, but it was planned.
   Yeah Evangelion suffered a last minute spectacular money collapse hence the slideshow final episode.  I believe we're now on the second of 5(?!) new movies, which will at least in part do over the ending.



stePH

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Reply #20 on: January 19, 2009, 02:19:00 PM
It definitely helps to have at least an ending in mind.  For evidence I submit The X Files and Neon Genesis Evangelion.
I believe Evangelion had an ending in mind. It was one designed deliberately to be unsatisfying, but it was planned.
   Yeah Evangelion suffered a last minute spectacular money collapse hence the slideshow final episode.  I believe we're now on the second of 5(?!) new movies, which will at least in part do over the ending.

End of Evangelion did nothing for the series.  I've heard rumor that work on a live-action adaptation is in progress.

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Reply #21 on: January 20, 2009, 02:11:59 PM
It definitely helps to have at least an ending in mind.  For evidence I submit The X Files and Neon Genesis Evangelion.
I believe Evangelion had an ending in mind. It was one designed deliberately to be unsatisfying, but it was planned.
   Yeah Evangelion suffered a last minute spectacular money collapse hence the slideshow final episode.  I believe we're now on the second of 5(?!) new movies, which will at least in part do over the ending.

End of Evangelion did nothing for the series.  I've heard rumor that work on a live-action adaptation is in progress.

I bought the Japanese ending of Eva, which is even MORE confusing, but makes nice use of the song "Komm, Susser Tod".

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Heradel

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Reply #22 on: February 02, 2009, 02:32:37 AM
I might be alone here, but the latest episode was one of the best in a very long time. Possible the entire series.

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Reply #23 on: February 03, 2009, 01:13:47 AM
I might be alone here, but the latest episode was one of the best in a very long time. Possible the entire series.

A couple of my friends said the same thing.  I'm in the camp that the show has lost its way.  I'm disappointed and waiting for it to be over.   

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


Heradel

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Reply #24 on: February 03, 2009, 01:15:44 AM
I might be alone here, but the latest episode was one of the best in a very long time. Possible the entire series.

A couple of my friends said the same thing.  I'm in the camp that the show has lost its way.  I'm disappointed and waiting for it to be over.   

Humanity has, I don't think the show has.

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