What the Frack is Up with Battlestar Galactica? (spoilers)

[stePH]

I thought the initial Skiffy miniseries and the first two seasons were simply awesome sci-fi, second only in my mind to Babylon 5.  But after catching up with the DVD releases and getting the third season in real time (well, TiVo-time), I think it's been in decline since the fleet left New Caprica.

Now we're halfway through the fourth (and final) season, they've reached Earth and apparently found nothing but ruins.  And now we have another long wait of unspecified duration before the final ten episodes conclude the series.

What the frack?

I think a large part of the problem is Ronald Moore pulling it out of his ass as he goes along.  A great deal of what made Babylon 5 so awesome is that JMS always had a course and destination planned for the series, and despite a few bumps in the road and a detour or two, he pretty much got to where he wanted to go.  This "final five Cylons" business has always seemed like a mid-course correction to me, and I doubt even Moore knows who the fifth one is yet.

Anybody else have any thoughts?

[Heradel]

I thought the initial Skiffy miniseries and the first two seasons were simply awesome sci-fi, second only in my mind to Babylon 5.  But after catching up with the DVD releases and getting the third season in real time (well, TiVo-time), I think it's been in decline since the fleet left New Caprica.

Now we're halfway through the fourth (and final) season, they've reached Earth and apparently found nothing but ruins.  And now we have another long wait of unspecified duration before the final ten episodes conclude the series.

What the frack?

I think a large part of the problem is Ronald Moore pulling it out of his ass as he goes along.  A great deal of what made Babylon 5 so awesome is that JMS always had a course and destination planned for the series, and despite a few bumps in the road and a detour or two, he pretty much got to where he wanted to go.  This "final five Cylons" business has always seemed like a mid-course correction to me, and I doubt even Moore knows who the fifth one is yet.

Anybody else have any thoughts?

RDM's said in the podcast that they had the beginning written and the end was sketched out pretty well, but wasn't set in stone up until it was written (the last episode had it's first words penned a few weeks ago). I liked the last episode - It was probably the best since 33. And I wasn't really expecting a Disney-coloured happy ending, that wouldn't have fit the tone of the series (or the fact that there are ten episodes left and ten episodes of paradise is boring). And it's not the storyteller's fault that the final season is broken into two chunks of ten, the network (blaming the writer's strike) pulled that on them.

[Liminal]

I think a large part of the problem is Ronald Moore pulling it out of his ass as he goes along.  A great deal of what made Babylon 5 so awesome is that JMS always had a course and destination planned for the series, and despite a few bumps in the road and a detour or two, he pretty much got to where he wanted to go.  This "final five Cylons" business has always seemed like a mid-course correction to me, and I doubt even Moore knows who the fifth one is yet.
Anybody else have any thoughts?

I've never really understood why it's so bad for someone writing in a serial format to make things up as he/she goes along. Moore and his writers aren't just pulling it out of their asses, but making narrative decisions based on the characters, a comprehensive show "bible" that outlines the universe of BSG in a great deal of detail, and any number of other elements of the story. Sure they make mistakes and sometimes end up with episodes that are weak or story lines that don't quite fulfill their potential, but we knew that there were twelve models from the beginning and never saw more than seven, so I'm not sure how that is a mid-course correction.

I agree that the first season was the strongest in terms of consistency and I blame that on the fact that they jumped from 13 episodes to 20 . . . and after getting a feel for the rhythm of British series (which tend to have season of 6 - 13 episodes), I think that the optimal length of a season for a drama like BSG is probably around 13 episodes. But I think things have been pretty good this season, with the last few episodes being quite strong and returning our focus on the characters and their choices--which has always been BSG's main strength. Call me a sucker, but I totally trust Moore & Co. to pull off the endgame of this series with some kick-ass story-telling!

[stePH]

RDM's said in the podcast that they had the beginning written and the end was sketched out pretty well, but wasn't set in stone up until it was written (the last episode had it's first words penned a few weeks ago). I liked the last episode - It was probably the best since 33. And I wasn't really expecting a Disney-coloured happy ending, that wouldn't have fit the tone of the series (or the fact that there are ten episodes left and ten episodes of paradise is boring). And it's not the storyteller's fault that the final season is broken into two chunks of ten, the network (blaming the writer's strike) pulled that on them.

Well, I don't know what I was expecting, but "Disney-colored happy ending" wasn't it.  I also wasn't expecting to spend ten episodes on Earth; I thought they'd do maybe two or at most three.

From almost the beginning of the show's run, we've been told of the Cylons "... and they have a plan."  It wasn't long before some, myself included, began adding "and when Ron Moore figures out what it is, they'll be the first to know."  Does anybody have any idea what "the Cylon plan" was?  Because whatever it was seems to have gone completely off the rails; for evidence I submit the civil war and the reconciliation with humanity.

I've never really understood why it's so bad for someone writing in a serial format to make things up as he/she goes along.

It definitely helps to have at least an ending in mind.  For evidence I submit The X Files and Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Moore and his writers aren't just pulling it out of their asses, but making narrative decisions based on the characters, a comprehensive show "bible" that outlines the universe of BSG in a great deal of detail, and any number of other elements of the story. Sure they make mistakes and sometimes end up with episodes that are weak or story lines that don't quite fulfill their potential, but we knew that there were twelve models from the beginning and never saw more than seven, so I'm not sure how that is a mid-course correction.

Yes, we always knew that there were twelve models.  I read somewhere a year or two back that by the time we had seen seven, Moore & Co. realized that introducing a new character late in the series was essentially telegraphing "ALERT!  CYLON HERE!"  so they had to figure something else out to do about the remaining five.  I realize that this might carry more weight if I could cite the source, but I can't.  Deal.  I still maintain that if Moore even knows who #5 is (by now he'd better) he's only recently come up with it.  Unless it's Starbuck in which case he's known that it's her ever since he blew up her Viper near the end of season 3.

I still think the series started to lose focus in the third season and I don't really feel it's regained it.   

And what the frack is up with Bob Dylan?

[eytanz]

It definitely helps to have at least an ending in mind.  For evidence I submit The X Files and Neon Genesis Evangelion.

I believe Evangelion had an ending in mind. It was one designed deliberately to be unsatisfying, but it was planned.

[Listener]

I'm only sticking with BSG at this point because I know it's going to end, and because I trust the producers to wrap things up, even if they don't do so in a happy fashion.  I'm a little worn out by all of it.  Like on ER and Heroes, I feel the plots are spreading too far apart, and bringing everyone together onto the surface of Earth wasn't enough to solve that problem.

As to the fifth Cylon... Peter David posited that it's the Galactica itself.  I'm not buying that.

I had a nice discussion with a coworker about the Tigh/Dualla/Gaeta scene on the bridge.  Either it was left in to show Tigh's humanity, and his insecurity with being a Cylon (let me be nice so people know I'm human), or it was indicative of Gaeta or Dualla being the fifth.  But I don't think it's either of them, and neither did my coworker.  No one really cares about Dualla anymore, and Gaeta's too easy a choice.

I think we can safely rule out the Adamas, Starbuck, Roslin, Helo, Cottle, the entire Quorum of Twelve, and the minor characters.  Unfortunately, that doesn't leave a lot of people.  So either the fifth is someone we haven't met yet (which I doubt) or it's someone we met in an earlier episode.

It would be interesting to me if it turned out to be Cain, and there's a Cain on Earth already.

Beyond that, I got nothin'.

[stePH]

I've never really understood why it's so bad for someone writing in a serial format to make things up as he/she goes along.

It definitely helps to have at least an ending in mind.  For evidence I submit The X Files and Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Oh, and how could I forget The Dark Tower?

[Heradel]

As to the fifth Cylon... Peter David posited that it's the Galactica itself.  I'm not buying that.

I had a nice discussion with a coworker about the Tigh/Dualla/Gaeta scene on the bridge.  Either it was left in to show Tigh's humanity, and his insecurity with being a Cylon (let me be nice so people know I'm human), or it was indicative of Gaeta or Dualla being the fifth.  But I don't think it's either of them, and neither did my coworker.  No one really cares about Dualla anymore, and Gaeta's too easy a choice.

I think we can safely rule out the Adamas, Starbuck, Roslin, Helo, Cottle, the entire Quorum of Twelve, and the minor characters.  Unfortunately, that doesn't leave a lot of people.  So either the fifth is someone we haven't met yet (which I doubt) or it's someone we met in an earlier episode.

It would be interesting to me if it turned out to be Cain, and there's a Cain on Earth already.

Beyond that, I got nothin'.

We already have two .5 cylons.

[Liminal]

We already have two .5 cylons.

That's are really good point!

[williamjamesw]

We already have two .5 cylons.

That's are really good point!

And a third (full one)on the way.

[stePH]

We already have two .5 cylons.

And a third (full one)on the way.

Totally ... what the frack is up with that?  From almost the beginning we're told that the Cylons can't breed without humans.  Hence the need to have Sharon/Eight/Athena hook up with Helo.  But if Tigh is a Cylon and he's managed to get "Caprica Six" up the duff, there goes that baby out with the bathwater.

[williamjamesw]

I figure that the Cylons likely have such a small gene-pool, that the ones that were aware of their own nature would avoid such close in-breeding.  Nobody informed Tigh, and Six didn't know he was "family".   

Of course, this is just a theory . 

[Liminal]

The main 7 models didn't know much about what the final five capabilities or design specs were, so I don't think the writers are throwing out any babies or bathwater - at least on that issue.

[sirana]

I must say I strongly disagree with stePH on this one. I watched the first season (I actually bought the dvd) and found it boring and much too militaristic for my taste. Imho the season one could be taking place on an American aircraft carrier instead of a Battlestar and there wouldn't be much differences to the characters and the story. And have I said that I don't like my fiction from a military perspective? ;-)
I didn't watch season two until I heard Joss Whedon praising Battlestar (that was about the time the strike hit), so I decided to give it another chance. Season two was ok in my book, but didn't get really good until the last episodes.
And then came the fantastic season 3, which blew me out of the water and reduced me to a slobbering fanboy. I really really love season 3 and the first half of season 4, it has excactly what pushes my buttons in a scifi-show. Both the Occupation on New Caprica and the Cylon civil war are some of my favourite storylines in any tv show.

[Loz]

Season One has a lot of what was wrong with Season One of Lost, lots of running around to disguise very little plot movement, you could edit all that really matters between the first episode and the last down into an episode in itself without missing much on consequence, season two it finally kicks into gear although loses it's way between Admiral Cain getting shot and Lee being made the captain of the Pegasus. Season Three starts off very strongly then is just good for the rest of the season.

Season Four seems to have gone off the rails somewhat. There seems to be any number of crazy ideas being thrown at the screen with little apparent care and attention. Part of the cause of this was presumably the strike, but it's something of a mess. The writers never seemed to give proper care and attention to the fact that Cylon society consists of a near infinite number of seven models but now it's all over the place, so that the Cylon Occupation of New Caprica was run by a particular selection of skinjobs, who just happened to take Baltar off-world with them, who just happened to have a De'anna on board who went crazy over who the final five were, who happened to be the ones who took Hera, who happened to include the Six who has visions of Baltar who then decide to revolt, who just happens to include the Leoben obsessed with mentally torturing Starbuck to bring her closer to God. I really dislike that pretty much everyone except Six now is referred to by whatever name we first met them in the show, One is not called Cavil! Three is not Deanna! Why was Brunette Six called Natalie? Who knows!

Then of course, after their ship is attacked, the Cylon civil war only happens off-screen but just constantly gets referred to, while instead we get to thrill to the adventures of Lee Adama and Rollo Lampkin the crazy kingmaker. Oh, and Lee's President. It's alright to write an episode criticising the social order of the Fleet but not if you're going to decide that things can't go on without an Adama heading the military or government.

And Saul Tigh, one minute Bill Adama's fighting him for sleeping with Six, the next minute he's making him acting Admiral of the Fleet. There's a lack of consistency here.

Still, it was nice to see Colonel Kira though.

[Darwinist]

Holy crap, I was bummed out about the January 16th episode.  Nothing going on with Earth, looks like they are going to leave and have more civil unrest in space (bored with that).  The Dee thing was shocking.  The Adama / Saul drunken confrontation was weird - in the blink of an eye Adama goes from a suicidal maniac to a story telling leader of the humans.   The Kara thing is mind boggling, where are they going with that?  I guess I didn't think it was a good episode.   

[slic]

I got the 4th season dvds on Monday and finished the last episode today.

I agree with the dissenters.  The plot was slow and almost comical.  People running around throwing others out airlocks, sleeping with Cylons (now there's no 3 cylon babies - remember when Hera was some amazing prophesized child - what's she been up to lately?)

There was all sorts of setup that seems to have been wasted.  Baltar's cult, Lee in politics, Tigh having been tortured by the Cylons only to be revealed to be one of the Five - such good fodder to tell stories about the human condition- love, power, pride, forgiveness - all we get is soap opera

The characters were so inconsistent - First Adm Adama is furious then drunk and slobbering with grief then angry reconciled - all in about 20 minutues.  Rosilin is in shock with Baltar's confession then she forgives him then she's paniced he might die then everything is fine and she's stone cold.

And what was with that lame ass way to find Earth - only the old/new viper can get the signal - that was right up with the shark jumping (or is it fridge nuking now?) cylon baby blood cure for the prez's cancer.

the special effects were awesome though.

[slic]

oh and whatever happened to Baltar's "vision" of Six or what I thought was an awesome twist - Capria's vision of Baltar?

[stePH]

I think the fifth is Bob Dylan. 

Either that, or Anders was Bob Dylan in a former life.

[Alasdair5000]

It definitely helps to have at least an ending in mind.  For evidence I submit The X Files and Neon Genesis Evangelion.

I believe Evangelion had an ending in mind. It was one designed deliberately to be unsatisfying, but it was planned.

   Yeah Evangelion suffered a last minute spectacular money collapse hence the slideshow final episode.  I believe we're now on the second of 5(?!) new movies, which will at least in part do over the ending.

[stePH]

It definitely helps to have at least an ending in mind.  For evidence I submit The X Files and Neon Genesis Evangelion.

I believe Evangelion had an ending in mind. It was one designed deliberately to be unsatisfying, but it was planned.

   Yeah Evangelion suffered a last minute spectacular money collapse hence the slideshow final episode.  I believe we're now on the second of 5(?!) new movies, which will at least in part do over the ending.

End of Evangelion did nothing for the series.  I've heard rumor that work on a live-action adaptation is in progress.

[Listener]

It definitely helps to have at least an ending in mind.  For evidence I submit The X Files and Neon Genesis Evangelion.

I believe Evangelion had an ending in mind. It was one designed deliberately to be unsatisfying, but it was planned.

   Yeah Evangelion suffered a last minute spectacular money collapse hence the slideshow final episode.  I believe we're now on the second of 5(?!) new movies, which will at least in part do over the ending.

End of Evangelion did nothing for the series.  I've heard rumor that work on a live-action adaptation is in progress.

I bought the Japanese ending of Eva, which is even MORE confusing, but makes nice use of the song "Komm, Susser Tod".

[Heradel]

I might be alone here, but the latest episode was one of the best in a very long time. Possible the entire series.

[Darwinist]

I might be alone here, but the latest episode was one of the best in a very long time. Possible the entire series.

A couple of my friends said the same thing.  I'm in the camp that the show has lost its way.  I'm disappointed and waiting for it to be over.   

[Heradel]

I might be alone here, but the latest episode was one of the best in a very long time. Possible the entire series.

A couple of my friends said the same thing.  I'm in the camp that the show has lost its way.  I'm disappointed and waiting for it to be over.   

Humanity has, I don't think the show has.

[Alasdair5000]

See, I HATED sizable portions of season three.  I've come back in on 'Revelations' and so far, with the exception of the draggy bits of the last but one episode, I think it's going out on a real high.  The characters are sharper, the series is suddenly about something much bigger than us running from the Cylon threat and everyone's getting a moment in the sun. 

   I am still of the opinion that the vast majority of the cast are toast well before the ending, but it's fun to spot how they'll go out.  REALLY hoping Helo makes it to the end but I suspect that's a vain hope at best...

[sirana]

Is it only me, or are Roslin and Adama becoming the villains of this series?
I mean they were never the faithful keepers of democracy to begin with, but the fleet is sliding fast to a military dictatorship with an uninterested figurehead president.
Its gotten to the point that I am rooting for Zarek.

[Alasdair5000]

I think there's certainly a case for that.  I do wonder, in fact, whether or not things go utterly, completely, horrificially badly wrong, we lose a sizable portion of the human population and then the last few episodes are everyone being given an immense Damascene revelation about why Earth is like it is, what the Cylons actually are and what Starbuck actually IS.

Or

It COULD all end in a MASSIVE dance number.

[sirana]

I vote for dance number.

[Heradel]

[...]
It COULD all end in a MASSIVE dance number.

...On the Casino Planet.

[izzardfan]

[...]
It COULD all end in a MASSIVE dance number.

...On the Casino Planet.

See, this is why I love these boards!  You guys are the best!  Thanks for my morning smile.   

[Heradel]

What, no one has any comments about the end of the mutiny?

Like I said, they're back on form. That two-parter felt like 33 all over again.

[sirana]

edit: From Battlestar Lolactica

[stePH]

What, no one has any comments about the end of the mutiny?

Like I said, they're back on form. That two-parter felt like 33 all over again.

I'm just wondering where they go with the remaining episiodes.  They took one to decide Earth was a wash, pack up their shit and hit the road again.  Then three more to start and fail a mutiny.  That leaves six, and I can only wonder what comes next.  It must involve Dean Stockwell's Cylon faction pursuing them in some way, I'm sure.

[edit]
and rereading the thread I noted earlier I said:

From almost the beginning of the show's run, we've been told of the Cylons "... and they have a plan."  It wasn't long before some, myself included, began adding "and when Ron Moore figures out what it is, they'll be the first to know."  Does anybody have any idea what "the Cylon plan" was?  Because whatever it was seems to have gone completely off the rails; for evidence I submit the civil war and the reconciliation with humanity.

Anybody?  Anybody?

And what the frack is up with Bob Dylan?

[Alasdair5000]

From almost the beginning of the show's run, we've been told of the Cylons "... and they have a plan."  It wasn't long before some, myself included, began adding "and when Ron Moore figures out what it is, they'll be the first to know."  Does anybody have any idea what "the Cylon plan" was?  Because whatever it was seems to have gone completely off the rails; for evidence I submit the civil war and the reconciliation with humanity.


Anybody?  Anybody?

   There is a second TV movie on the way called The Plan.  Directed by Edward James Olmos, covering primary events from the Cylon's point of view as well as extra stuff featuring Anders, Tory, Tyrol and Tigh.


And what the frack is up with Bob Dylan?
   Could have been worse.  Could have been The Laughing Gnome by David Bowie:)

[Heradel]

And what the frack is up with Bob Dylan?
   Could have been worse.  Could have been The Laughing Gnome by David Bowie:)

Thinking about it, it would be interesting to see a show based off Space Oddity (song) or the Ziggy Stardust album.

[Raving_Lunatic]

 

space oddity was my favourite song when I was 7

[Heradel]

space oddity was my favourite song when I was 7

Thinking about it further, that song always reminded me of 2001.

[stePH]

Latest Maximum PC No BS Podcast's regular feature "Gordon Mah Ung's Rant o' the Week" had an amusing speculation on how the series will end ... (I'm paraphrasing here) ... after the Galactica is destroyed, Edward James Olmos will wake up in the Blade Runner world with Harrison Ford, and say "I just had the weirdest frakkin' dream."  He also pointed out how both Blade Runner and BSG call the imitation humans "skinjobs".

[Planish]

I have a Theory About Brontosauruses BSG.

I submit the notion that the skinjob Cylons are cloned descendants of the real humans who colonized the galaxy long ago, just before the Big One back on Earth. Because they are clones, they cannot reproduce the old-fashioned way. They may have developed cybernetic or nanotech implants as well, giving rise to the notion that they are cyborgs. The Centurion and Raider models are more like robot servants with biological components.
The so-called humans, OTOH, are an artificial yet totally biological race/species/whatever that were manufactured by the clones/Cylons to fill out the populations, and the Cylon bio-techs who developed them managed to figure out how they could reproduce on their own, in a natural way, without the aid of a resurrection facility. Hence the diversity of appearance.

About the "final 5th Cylon" - don't we already have two candidates, in Kara Thrace who (presumably) found her own body; and Ellen Tigh, because she was remembered by Saul as appearing in one of his earlier lives? Come to think of it, I thought I had read somewhere that Ellen was confirmed as the fifth Cylon. Which makes me wonder about Kara.

[sirana]

Why Tom Zarek was right

[Praxis]

**Spoilers warning.  Spoilers warning.  You should know better, anyway.  Spoilers warning.**

So now that the
"What/where is Earth (and will the hoomans be safe from Cylon attacks there)?"
"Who are the Final Five?"
and "Who is the Final-est Five?"

questions have been done, we've still got

• "What's with the virtual head-people that some characters have (And so far refuse to acknowledge to anyone else)?"
• "What's with The Signal that Ms Thrace was able to track aaalllllllllll the way back to Earth with her ship's radar, yet no other technology could?" I mean, even if it was coming from the remains of a crashed ship, how could no other ship detect it?  Someone/thing would have to have set that up and....who?
• "What's with there being a Kara Thrace alive and pretty well and the remains of a viper(?) on Earth, with the remains of a Kara Thrace and a Kara-Thrace-in-viper(?)-ship-explody-blowy-uppy-into-small-bits-in-space?"
• "The Opera House.  Remember all that?  With the shared dreams and visions and running about carrying/stealing/whatever little Hera?  Is that, now, not happening?"
   (And has she stopped drawing creepy Six drawings?)
• "Did the Cavils et al keep on lobotomising the cylon raiders?"
• "Did all the Centurions have their limiting chip things removed, or only the ones on the base ship wot was where some of the Cavils (et al) were shot?"
• "Are there really no more Sevens left?  Really?
• "How does an 'original' Cylon-type manage to get resurrected anyway?  Especially if the Hub is gone and we-canna-resurrect-anymore-Cap'n?  And, in that case, could Saul just jump out an airlock or something and 'come back' with both eyes? Ditto for Anders and with a working brain rather than a shot one."

Seems like a lot for 6 episodes.
Maybe they will be talky episodes rather than shooting and explosion episodes.

[Heradel]

• "What's with the virtual head-people that some characters have (And so far refuse to acknowledge to anyone else)?"

I think that's just the head people leaving such a psychic imprint on the character that they're hallucinating. It's never seemed like it was more.

[/list]

[Praxis]

I think that's just the head people leaving such a psychic imprint on the character that they're hallucinating. It's never seemed like it was more.

Baltar's Head-Six was able to lift him up, in full view of other people though they didn't see her, and 'she' has pushed/pulled him around before, too.

[stePH]

"How does an 'original' Cylon-type manage to get resurrected anyway?  Especially if the Hub is gone and we-canna-resurrect-anymore-Cap'n? 

Ellen resurrected long before the Hub was destroyed.  My guess is that Dean had the resurrection area for the Five isolated from the access of anybody else.

Or maybe Moore's still just pulling stuff out of his ass as he goes along.

[Praxis]

Yeah, I realised that (about the Hub not being expoded yet) after I'd posted, and then couldn't log back in.  Grrrrrr.

But it does seem strange that 'every' Cylon can be resurrected.  Like, if you broke your old betamax machine it could come back new from the mp3 factory down the road.

anyway......

[edit:  and, yes, I think a large part of this wrap-up will be pulled from various writer-asses.]

[Heradel]

"How does an 'original' Cylon-type manage to get resurrected anyway?  Especially if the Hub is gone and we-canna-resurrect-anymore-Cap'n? 

Ellen resurrected long before the Hub was destroyed.  My guess is that Dean had the resurrection area for the Five isolated from the access of anybody else.

Or maybe Moore's still just pulling stuff out of his ass as he goes along.

Moore has totally owned coming up with most of this as they went along (see the commentary podcast for this episode). If this is what results from that, I'm not that concerned.

[stePH]

Moore has totally 0wn3d coming up with most of this as they went along (see the commentary podcast for this episode). If this is what results from that, I'm not that concerned.

I'm just hoping for a story and resolution that doesn't come apart under casual scrutiny.  That's easier to do if you know where you're going before you get there.

[goatkeeper]

Ok, I just watched last week's show.  Mostly plot narrative and explanation for the entire series, LAME.  Moved too fast for me.  Will someone be a champ and summarize what the crap all that aphasia Anders/John/Helen yammering was about?  Pretty please?

[Planish]

... And, in that case, could Saul just jump out an airlock or something and 'come back' with both eyes? Ditto for Anders and with a working brain rather than a shot one." [/li][/list]

[The answer to the original question having been answered...]
What mystifies me is that (presumably) Saul and Ellen had been a couple for a long time (talking about during his current lifetime) and that they probably looked much younger when they met. Now that Ellen has resurrected, she looks just like she did immediately before she died. It can't be that both of them started out looking the age they do now, because Adama would have noticed something odd with Saul's unchanging appearance. Even if Saul appeared to age normally, he and Adama (over the past 20-30 years) would still have noticed something was up with Ellen.

Oh, wait, maybe I need one of these for my disbelief:


goatkeeper - try http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Final_Five and http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Humanoid_Cylon#The_Thirteen_Cylon_Models
Much of what was revealed about the humanoid Cylons in the most recent episode is summarized there, including an "oh yeah, there was a model 7 we all forgot about" thing.

[goatkeeper]

awesome.  you're a saint. 

Am I the only one disappointed in last week's episode?  I mean, I know they only have a couple more shows to go and "a latta splainin' to doo!" but still. 

[Darwinist]

awesome.  you're a saint. 

Am I the only one disappointed in last week's episode?  I mean, I know they only have a couple more shows to go and "a latta splainin' to doo!" but still. 

I'm with you.  I think the show is falling on its face.  The final episodes will be interesting but I don't know how they are going to wrap this thing up.  I used to be a big fan.   

[Praxis]

It's almost as if the writers are using these (last few) episodes to publicly apologise that they have no idea where the stories are supposed to go.

Repeated references to the fact that one or other of the Final Five (or indeed any of the cylons or even baby Hera) has so far failed to have any amazing revelations or an idea of what the cylon's "Plan" was all along.

Even the conversation between Roslin and Caprica Six where she tries to bring up the subject of their visions, which then peters out into some banal sentiments....
At least some of the characters are doing some interesting things - Baltar attempting not to look like he ran away, the tension between Ellen and Tigh.

I'm assuming that one theme of the remaining episodes will be how cylons and humans find ways to live together and forgive and move on and all that, but since the ending is supposed to be pretty bleak, I can't see any of that resolving satisfactorily.

[stePH]

It's almost as if the writers are using these (last few) episodes to publicly apologise that they have no idea where the stories are supposed to go.

In other words, they're going to pull an Eva on us.

[Anarquistador]

I admit, I haven't watched BSG on a regular basis since about the third season. I just lost my taste for the show. It really does seem like the writers have jettisoned any sense of plot or theme or character development for the sake of being brutal and topical. I too find myself scratching my head about the Cylon "plan." They WERE supposed to have a plan, right?

It's also the politics of the show that weigh heavily upon my bleeding heart. I've long been troubled by the thought that BSG is basically a fantasy extrapolation of post-9/11 American society, but told from an ultra-conservative mindset. Consider: the Cylons are religious fanatics operating without any real plan beyond "kill the unbelievers." There's no point in trying to see their point of view or come to a peaceful settlement, because they HAVE NO POINT OF VIEW. Not even THEY are clear on their own agenda. The human leader is a divinely-appointed savior who is literally in bed with the military. Anyone who disagrees politically is either a collaborator, a moron, or just pushing their own personal agenda. Characters who could be seen as truly heroic (Gaeta, Helo, Lampkin) are punished for it as the plot moves along, and borderline psychos and just plain incompetents (Apollo, Starbuck, Tigh) are elevated to grand status. Tom Zarek, even though he's technically a villain, was originally made out to seem like he might have a legitimate political beef with the Colonial government, but eventually he's just revealed as another self-promoting schemer. Gaius Baltar goes from Bill Clinton to Saddam Hussein to...whatever he's supposed to be now in way too short a time, assuming whatever role the writers needed him to assume that week. It's frustrating, and I think the ending will be equally frustrating.

That being said, I kind of liked the Bob Dylan references. I've often thought that maybe great artists had some conduit to the Divine, and it's an interesting concept to think that, in some far flung corner of the galaxy, there was a poet or songwriter tapped into the same conduit as Dylan was. And the song does fit with the overall mood of the show.

[stePH]

That being said, I kind of liked the Bob Dylan references. I've often thought that maybe great artists had some conduit to the Divine, and it's an interesting concept to think that, in some far flung corner of the galaxy, there was a poet or songwriter tapped into the same conduit as Dylan was. And the song does fit with the overall mood of the show.

With the revelations of Earth, it seems clear to me that the Five knew the song because they came from Earth.  Which means that we're all Cylons.

[goatkeeper]

That being said, I kind of liked the Bob Dylan references. I've often thought that maybe great artists had some conduit to the Divine, and it's an interesting concept to think that, in some far flung corner of the galaxy, there was a poet or songwriter tapped into the same conduit as Dylan was. And the song does fit with the overall mood of the show.

With the revelations of Earth, it seems clear to me that the Five knew the song because they came from Earth.  Which means that we're all Cylons.

Bingo

[Heradel]

Am I the only one not pessimistic about the ending at this point? I've liked the last few episodes, and didn't really have trouble with the Anders-will-exposit-everything-now episode. Sure, it dumped a lot at once, but at least for me it didn't feel artificial. And the last episode was just some really good Cylon drama.

[stePH]

Am I the only one not pessimistic about the ending at this point?

Quite possibly.  By now I'm expecting an impenetrable non-conclusion that would make Anno Hideaki shake his head in disbelief.

[Anarquistador]

That being said, I kind of liked the Bob Dylan references. I've often thought that maybe great artists had some conduit to the Divine, and it's an interesting concept to think that, in some far flung corner of the galaxy, there was a poet or songwriter tapped into the same conduit as Dylan was. And the song does fit with the overall mood of the show.

With the revelations of Earth, it seems clear to me that the Five knew the song because they came from Earth.  Which means that we're all Cylons.

I'm kind of okay with that, actually.

Now, if the writers were REALLY smart, they could tie that revelation back to the Ancient Greek roots. Maybe one of the original humanoid Cylons was named Deucalion...

[goatkeeper]

I haven't seen tonight's episode, but after last week's cheesefest with Caprica losing the baby while Ellen and Saul fight over her I don't think they can "save" it.  Season 3 ended strong and four opened up great, but it's a lot to ask for a show to maintain brilliance like BSG has.  Overall, still an amazing series, although I'm very disappointed in how it's fizzling out as contrived and typical television.

[Heradel]

That was a really good episode Friday. I think things are falling together, if somewhat obliquely right now.

[Planish]

After    seeing the episode "Someone to Watch Over Me", now I'm starting to think that maybe Starbuck's Dad was a model 7/Daniel.

His first name, "Drelide", starts with a "D".
He was/is musically artistic, he had disappeared, taught Kara to play "All Along The Watchtower", and somehow passed on a few Cylon characteristics (resurrection?) to Kara.
Kara is also somewhat graphically artistic.

[Heradel]

After    seeing the episode "Someone to Watch Over Me", now I'm starting to think that maybe Starbuck's Dad was a model 7/Daniel.

His first name, "Drelide", starts with a "D".
He was/is musically artistic, he had disappeared, taught Kara to play "All Along The Watchtower", and somehow passed on a few Cylon characteristics (resurrection?) to Kara.
Kara is also somewhat graphically artistic.

I was thinking the same thing. She's not a toaster, and the first hybrid is still the future of the combined races.

Sucks to be Hera/Helo/Athena though.

[Planish]

After    seeing the episode "Someone to Watch Over Me", now I'm starting to think that maybe Starbuck's Dad was a model 7/Daniel.

His first name, "Drelide", starts with a "D".
He was/is musically artistic, he had disappeared, taught Kara to play "All Along The Watchtower", and somehow passed on a few Cylon characteristics (resurrection?) to Kara.
Kara is also somewhat graphically artistic.

I was thinking the same thing. She's not a toaster, and the first hybrid is still the future of the combined races.

There was also that time she hijacked a Cylon Raider and flew it back to the Galactica. A special rapport with the operating system perhaps?

Yet another thought... Suppose Daniel was designed such that his/their children with human women were hybrids, or that his children with "Toaster" Cylons were able to reproduce naturally. Among other things, this would bypass the Resurrection process. Now, if the Cavils were inclined to mess with resurrectees' memories in order to maintain some sort of control over the Cylon race, perhaps he/they got rid of the Daniels to stay in power.

That's what I like about this show. Just enough hints to let you speculate as to what's going on.

[Heradel]

For those of us DVRing it, I'm locking this until 11AM EST. Spoilers will be shot.

[Heradel]

Well, I liked it. I even feel satisfied. I think the RDM cameo was somewhat inevitable, and the march of robots at the end a little too on the nose, but it was a damn frakking good way to end. So say we all.

[Darwinist]

I thought it was great.  They wrapped everything up in 2 hours and threw in some great twists and turns that I never saw coming.   Fantastic!  I remember watching the finales of STNG and B5 and this one may be tops.  It was a good run.  Good sci-fi on TV is hard to find.   

[Planish]

As soon as [Racetrack?] started reminiscing about some old battle, I said "Shut up! ... oh, they're dead now". One second later, *boom* the rock comes through the canopy. Obviously they were not aware of the Retrirony or Fatal Family Photo tropes, but I think this is a slightly different sub-species of them, and so slipped out accidently.

About the polygraph interview flashback... "Are you a Cylon?" I didn't think they knew yet that skinjobs existed. Did they ask that just to establish a baseline, in the belief that it was obvious (i.e. no shiny metal skin) that Adama was not a Cylon?

[stePH]

Still more questions than answers, but at least it didn't go all EVANGELION on us.

[Heradel]

Still more questions than answers, but at least it didn't go all EVANGELION on us.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-daybreak-finale-moore-mcdonnell-olmos.html

Ultimately, I don't really care, but it does raise my interest regarding Caprica.

[Alasdair5000]

Still more questions than answers, but at least it didn't go all EVANGELION on us.

True.  I'm actually still figuring out how I felt about it which is either a mark of really good or really patchy storytelling, I can't honestly tell. 

[Praxis]

True.  I'm actually still figuring out how I felt about it which is either a mark of really good or really patchy storytelling, I can't honestly tell. 

Same here, on the not-sure-what-I-think front.
I think.....it was a bit like having some people you know over for pizza.  It's nothing epic, but you get to see them being themselves and you can spend time going 'oh, there's so and so doing that thing they do' and then they go home and you feel quite good and it was *probably* worth doing, all in all.

But it wasn't a well put together finale.

Thinking about it afterwards, I used more synapses going over where the plot holes and changes showed up:
e.g.

• Adama was clearly supposed to say goodbye to Lee and fly off into the sun in an earlier script, and then this was changed so that we get the, very touching, ending of him on the hilltop.  Even though abandoning Lee like that makes no sense, unless he really still does hate his remaining son that much. ;
• they find Earth (but not THE Earth, since we've already had that and done that and it was cool and dramatic to see a nuclear wasteland at the start of the season, etc....) but it is our Earth so....umm....guys, we have all these ships and technology and knowledge and culture here? but......urr....Earth wasn't that advanced in our past so.....think, think.....we'll throw the ships and ALL the techology, hard won advances, everything into the Sun.  Hmmmm;
• Kara died on the last Earth and then another version of her is around, and she's not a cylon...and she 'saw Earh' as it was.....no time to explain that one sooooo "God did it"
• Astronomical odds of finding a habitable planet AND compatible DNA/RNA carrying bipeds - "God did it"
• Hera-as-future-of-civilisation.......possibly not, then, if people can breed with the 'humans' they find but then.....she wouldn't be Mitrochrondial (sp?) Eve....orrrr even if she was there wouldn't be a child skeleton found and written about in Nat Geographic.   Sod it, "God did it". 
  

Actually, I seem not to like the episode much. 

The fighting and battle scenes were cool, though. 
And Gaius got to make another earnest speech, which is always good.

Oh, and the flamingoes and 'so much life' bit was sweet.

[Loz]

It all boiled down to 'Being God means never having to held to account for killing millions of sentient beings just so one little girl gets to live on a planet with a bunch of savages' in the end. And the 'we must destroy our technology because all technology is bad and then go and split into thousands of individual clusters of people so that cavemen/savage beasts/germs have a much easier time finishing us off' anti-intellectualism of Lee at the end was depressing as hell. He didn't mind technology for all the times it saved his and his families lives in the four seasons previous to that moment. And I wouldn't have minded the loose end of Starbuck if they hadn't made such a big thing about leading up to a revelation. There is a way to structure stories so that not giving an explicit answer does not seem like a cheat, The Usual Suspects did this but BSG did not.

I broadly don't have much problem with anything before the final twenty minutes, it's the final twenty minutes that are it. Was Cavil's baseship destroyed?

[Heradel]

I broadly don't have much problem with anything before the final twenty minutes, it's the final twenty minutes that are it. Was Cavil's baseship destroyed?

RDM makes it clear in the podcast that the colony was destroyed (and apparently loses it's orbit and is sucked into the maw), but that they needed to cut time so they took it from that explosion sequence.

It all boiled down to 'Being God means never having to held to account for killing millions of sentient beings just so one little girl gets to live on a planet with a bunch of savages' in the end. And the 'we must destroy our technology because all technology is bad and then go and split into thousands of individual clusters of people so that cavemen/savage beasts/germs have a much easier time finishing us off' anti-intellectualism of Lee at the end was depressing as hell. He didn't mind technology for all the times it saved his and his families lives in the four seasons previous to that moment. And I wouldn't have minded the loose end of Starbuck if they hadn't made such a big thing about leading up to a revelation. There is a way to structure stories so that not giving an explicit answer does not seem like a cheat, The Usual Suspects did this but BSG did not.

I disagree. They were fundamentally betrayed by an instrument of their own technology, and the last four years they had been living nearly constantly aboard ship. We saw on New Caprica that some of them had gone to a more rural sort of life, and also that experience with creating a city didn't really seem to be that great — mud and tents everywhere, shortages and labor disagreements, and well, it was messy. It seemed to me logical at the end that they would split up and go to a simpler kind of life, even if it was objectively cruder.

[slic]

For me it pretty much went off the rails when the last cylon was revealed to be Ellen.  Sure there were good bits every once in a while, but really it's like the writers painted themselves in a corner and went to the great "Wheel of Surprise Twists-each one more surprising than the one before" spun it and wrote down whatever was there.

And there were some really odd bits - like Adama putting the ring on the wrong finger (or is that a BSG ref I missed?)

Starbuck just disappears?  Seriously? It would have been better if Lee had been mauled by a lion. 
"What are you going to do Lee?"
"I don't know" As he turns towards her "Maybe explore or tra-ahhh"
"LEEEEEE!!"

[sirana]

I'm mostly with you guys. I didn't hate it, but it wasn't as good as I would have hoped.

[sirana]

Another thing about BSG that I've been thinking: Does anybody else think it is odd how much smoking and drinking there was going on in this show? You think there might be a little sponsorship deal going on between the SciFi-Channel and the tobacco and/or alcohol lobby?

Don't get me wrong, I don't have much against smoking and drinking in a tv show and I wouldn't mind if an industry group gave money to a network to show people smoking (like in the good old days ), I am just curious.

Would also explain how BSG is making financial sense for the network, cause this isn't a cheap show (or at least doesn't look like one) and the ratings are not that fantastic either.

[Heradel]

Another thing about BSG that I've been thinking: Does anybody else think it is odd how much smoking and drinking there was going on in this show? You think there might be a little sponsorship deal going on between the SciFi-Channel and the tobacco and/or alcohol lobby?

Don't get me wrong, I don't have much against smoking and drinking in a tv show and I wouldn't mind if an industry group gave money to a network to show people smoking (like in the good old days ), I am just curious.

Would also explain how BSG is making financial sense for the network, cause this isn't a cheap show (or at least doesn't look like one) and the ratings are not that fantastic either.

I doubt they got money — I took it as a detail of dystopia.

[slic]

sirana makes a good point, and I doubt we'd be able to find out - if they did, it would be more in distant financing since no specific brand of any type was mentioned - "Hey Starbuck, you sure look relaxed right before this battle with the cyclons. How do you do it?" "Well Lee, I to take a long drag on my Lucky cigarellos and it calms my nerves."

However, I don't think so - mostly because it wasn't the glamourous type of smoking and drinking.  As Heradel mentioned it's more about self destruction and dystopia than anything.  It was alcoholics and people trying to escape that did the drinking and smoking, not really the kind of spokespeople you want.

[Anarquistador]

I found the dystopia aspect both refreshing and disturbing at the same time. It was nice to see a gritty and grim post-apocalyptic scenario, which was appropriate for the show. But it did get TOO dark at times for my tastes. There were times when it seemed like the show's writers were doing it just for the heck of it. I'm reminded of a parody news article I read a few years ago, which stated that BSG accidentally cancelled itself; it got so gritty that they killed off all the main characters.

It also made the...erm, happy ending to the series ring kind of hollow. So after all that, they all live in peace and harmony and start all over again? Not that I wanted to see everyone die horribly, but still...

[sirana]

Not that I wanted to see everyone die horribly, but still...

I did.

[AarrowOM]

Not that I wanted to see everyone die horribly, but still...

I did.

But didn't they?  I mean life without high technology?  How much more horrible can it get?

[Heradel]

Not that I wanted to see everyone die horribly, but still...

I did.

But didn't they?  I mean life without high technology?  How much more horrible can it get?

Did you not see the entire run except for the end?

[rowshack]

excluding Racetrack buying it I was happy with the end. Starbuck being whatever I let go because earlier they had the phantom Capirca that could be seen, heard and touch things then just disappeared.  I would have like to have seen Athena have a real go at Boomer. all said and done I'll just close the book on that story and walk away happy.

[Heradel]

It kind of seems that people have been forgetting that there is going to be a show called Caprica, which if it does nothing else will probably end up answering some of the lingering questions.

The (already leaked) pilot comes out on DVD next week, and even if Adm. Adama's the only character showing up in both so far, it's hard to think that they won't relate to each other a fair bit.

[Loz]

I was under the impression that Ron Moore had said that Caprica was stand-alone from BSG.

[Alasdair5000]

What I've read has suggested that the central plot of Caprica is going to be seperate but we'll see elements of BSG's history get worked in.  Moore's already said that the stuff about Daniel in the final few episodes is going to be important and I'd be very surprised if we didn't get some other callbacks.

I do wonder, by the way, whether Caprica's going to end up doing what Mad Men does and have large time jumps between seasons.  That way you could do the impact of Cylon tech on society as well as play with the status quo a little.  Plus, that would make a Romo Lampkin appearance in later seasons much more likely:)

[Heradel]

I think it has to be a continuation of exploring the themes — Moore isn't a one trick pony, if he's staying in the same universe it's because there are questions left unanswered.

It would be so cool to see a prelapsarian Lampkin.