EP166: The Something-Dreaming Game

[Ersatz Coffee]

Enjoyed this story. Nicely written, and well read.

On the hard SF-ness or otherwise of the quantum communication aspect, there's currently no known way to use quantum entanglement to send information faster than C. If such a method were discovered, physicists would have to rethink the whole theory of relativity. Entanglement does imply a weird sort of instantaneous transaction between the entangled particles, but this can only be used to send information in conjunction with a 'classical' (sub-C) information channel. A little on this here.

My only other quibble: last I heard we weren't supposed to be calling it the Heimlich manoeuvre any more, following various allegations against Henry Heimlich.

[WillMoo]

One of the best I have heard since starting to listen about a month ago.

[Planish]

The narrator treated it as something that all kids did, including herself.  Because, to the best of my knowledge, most if not all kids do do it... not for the erotic aspect at Tara's age, but because of the drug-like effect it has.  IMO.

That's my recollection. It was much like the "spinning around to make yourself dizzy" kind of fun.
It didn't involve choking. More like hyperventilating and holding your breath while somebody else lifted you from behind as if they were performing the heimlich maneuver.

Could the author have conflated the two activities?

[JoeFitz]

I'm really sorry, but I found the use of a very real and very dangerous "game" some children "play" for a story inappropriate on many levels.

Not interesting; not creepy; just wrong.

Why not leave it with the fibromyalgia brain-implant malfunctions and contacts aliens? That would seem like a great story.

Why make it into children trying to have a sexual euphoria by choking?

After all, you can't really have paraphilia until you have sexual desire, can you? The "pleasure" from asphyxiation is not sexual by itself; it's sexual activity while asphyxiation takes place that makes it erotic.

Plus, it seemed entirely unrealistic that a mother would react this way, or that a child who was "always careful" would choke herself with a grape to help "Albert" the alien who speaks in colours.

Not for children, indeed.

[goatkeeper]

Not interesting; not creepy; just wrong.

I didn't find it inapropriate but...

Why not leave it with the fibromyalgia brain-implant malfunctions and contacts aliens? That would seem like a great story.

Why make it into children trying to have a sexual euphoria by choking?

I was wondering this the whole time.  Maybe I missed something and someone could fill me in?
The erotic kid choking seemed to be an unnecessary component to the story, almost utilized for shock value.

[DKT]

Did I completely miss the eroticism element of the choking?  I just don't remember it at all...

[deflective]

Did I completely miss the eroticism element of the choking?  I just don't remember it at all...

i remember some time focused on it right near the beginning and then it was dropped for the actual story.

Why not leave it with the fibromyalgia brain-implant malfunctions and contacts aliens? That would seem like a great story.

The erotic kid choking seemed to be an unnecessary component to the story, almost utilized for shock value.

there wouldn't be the same sort of conflict if the choking element was replaced with an illness. the mother had to make the choice whether or not to let Tara risk herself, to make the adult decision that this was something worth risking her life for. Tara wasn't a victim of illness when she made her choice, she was proactively risking her life to accomplish something.

the emphasis on the erotic side of choking does seem out of place. especially since our society places such a strong taboo on anything that may sexualize children. this thread shows plainly that there are a lot of people that simply wont get past it no matter how it's used in the story. using an element that alienates so many people is an odd decision.

one possible reading is that it's the story's subtext. letting go of your children, letting them be adult and make adult decisions even if you can still see them as nine years old and know it will permanently change them.

[ChiliFan]

I hadn't really heard about anything much like this before, certainly never involving kids. What I'd heard and seen before was a politician who suffocated during a sexual fantasy with an orange in his mouth, as well as seeing special devices called ball gags after that. As for the technology involved in this story, I think it's all just theoretical. Obviously the game described in this story is dangerous and I don't think the warnings are going to prevent some people from trying it for themselves.

 

[MacArthurBug]

Gosh golly I really liked this! I kept meaning to not like it! Especially since it's about the terrible breath play thing. However, gosh darn it, this worked wonderfully. The story was beautifully told by her high mighty-ness Mur. And I can't help but like the stories written by this author.  Now I'm all perplexed and befuddled trying to figure out WHY I liked a story about a girl choking herself. DRAT it all.

[eytanz]

It took me a while to get to this one, but I really enjoyed it. I just found the characters really sympathetic and got the feeling that though they were making hard choices - both the mother and the girl - they made the right ones. Even if they did carry both a risk and a price.

Did I completely miss the eroticism element of the choking?  I just don't remember it at all...

The story itself wasn't about erotic choking. I think the point was - generally, a trend of autoerotic asphyxiation has started among young kids. Tara is introduced to it by other young kids, but while they do it for kicks, she discovers that it allows her to connect to aliens.

[wintermute]

Did I completely miss the eroticism element of the choking?  I just don't remember it at all...

The story itself wasn't about erotic choking. I think the point was - generally, a trend of autoerotic asphyxiation has started among young kids.

Autoerotic asphyxiation without an erotic component is just "asphyxiation".

[Rosaphilia]

I also loved the story but am still confused as to why the asphyxiation was
EROTIC rather than EROGENOUS. Sorry if I am being pedantic - but I work as a Psychologist and like to get such facts straight especially when they concern children!

There's no suggestion in the story that asphyxia leads to specific sexual arousal rather than a non-specific physical pleasure (unless I missed something more subtle regarding the relationship between the alien and the child?).  Simply because asphyxia may heighten sexual pleasure doesn't mean that its effects are specific to erotic activities. The lack of oxygen supply to the brain may just give a nice warm fuzzy feeling which supplements a wide range of pleasure reactions ... but of course, it is not healthy, not recommended and certainly not something to be tried alone!

[stePH]

I hadn't really heard about anything much like this before, certainly never involving kids. What I'd heard and seen before was a politician who suffocated during a sexual fantasy with an orange in his mouth, as well as seeing special devices called ball gags after that.

A ball gag isn't meant to suffocate the wearer, only to silence him or her.  But if the nasal passage were blocked as well, it would have that effect.

[eytanz]

Did I completely miss the eroticism element of the choking?  I just don't remember it at all...

The story itself wasn't about erotic choking. I think the point was - generally, a trend of autoerotic asphyxiation has started among young kids.

Autoerotic asphyxiation without an erotic component is just "asphyxiation".

Um, no, Autoerotic asphyxiation without an erotic component is auto-asphyxiation (as opposed to asphyxiation by others or by accident).

There's no suggestion in the story that asphyxia leads to specific sexual arousal rather than a non-specific physical pleasure (unless I missed something more subtle regarding the relationship between the alien and the child?).  Simply because asphyxia may heighten sexual pleasure doesn't mean that its effects are specific to erotic activities. The lack of oxygen supply to the brain may just give a nice warm fuzzy feeling which supplements a wide range of pleasure reactions ... but of course, it is not healthy, not recommended and certainly not something to be tried alone!

I'm not sure how you can say there's no suggestion in the story, given that the first few sentences are a pretty explicit claim by the mother (who is a psychiatrist) that the general trend is motivated by erotic pleasure. It later turns out that she is wrong as far as her own daughter's motivation for self-choking, but the issue of whether she is right or wrong about the trend in general is left unaddressed.

[Rain]

I thought it was a very interesting story and i liked it, but i think the ending made it a little too 'safe'.
The whole concept of kids strangling themselves is extremely scary and in the story it was justified in that aliens used it to communicate to this girl, this also made the mother and doctor to seem very negligent, i cannot imagine how they would think it was ok to let the girl just choke.

I know this is just is story and not a moral message, but i kinda think it should have been a message, instead of just saying "hey kids are trying to kill themselves and it's ok because they might be communicating with aliens", especially considering that according to responses in this thread, that 'game' is more common than i thought

[Listener]

Obviously the game described in this story is dangerous and I don't think the warnings are going to prevent some people from trying it for themselves.

I think Steve (and by extension Elizabeth Bear) has presented this story for an audience that's primed for disturbing material.  By that I mean, we know what we're getting into.  It is POSSIBLE, but not AS likely, that someone would just pick up this story either in print or audio form, listen to it, and try to contact aliens.  For the most part, the literary SF/F/H consumer is intelligent enough to not do this without first researching all the risks. (Hey, if you're into autoerotic asphixiation or any form of asphyxiation during sex, whatever you choose to do consensually with your partner is your business.)

I would be more concerned with someone emulating the scene in "The Dark Knight" when Batman rides the BatCycle up against the wall and turns it for quick braking.  I'm sure someone in the next couple of weeks will end up in the hospital from THAT.

[Listener]

I'm not sure how you can say there's no suggestion in the story, given that the first few sentences are a pretty explicit claim by the mother (who is a psychiatrist) that the general trend is motivated by erotic pleasure. It later turns out that she is wrong as far as her own daughter's motivation for self-choking, but the issue of whether she is right or wrong about the trend in general is left unaddressed.

The mother says in the story that she doesn't specialize in child psychiatry, so I think we can forgive that unreliable aspect of her narration.  But OTOH -- this next bit is a little squicky so I'm going to put it in white -- I think the narrator may be not only remembering her own experiences with the game but her own self-exploration at Tara's age.  By extension, I think Bear is hearkening back to the days of childhood and finding out about all the useful and interesting things a body can do/feel.  Some people feel them through choking, some through alcohol or other drugs, some through physical touching.  Maybe you (vosotros) didn't choke yourself regularly, but replace "choking" with the adult behavior you indulged in well before you were capable of making the informed decision to do or not to do, and it makes a little sense.

Pardon my ramble.  I'm thinking specifically as I write it about the scene in "The World on Blood" where Lourdes explains to Whistler about her own explorations leading up to discovering that she's a vampire, which gives you an idea of where I'm coming from.

[stePH]

Obviously the game described in this story is dangerous and I don't think the warnings are going to prevent some people from trying it for themselves.

I think Steve (and by extension Elizabeth Bear) has presented this story for an audience that's primed for disturbing material.  By that I mean, we know what we're getting into.  It is POSSIBLE, but not AS likely, that someone would just pick up this story either in print or audio form, listen to it, and try to contact aliens.  For the most part, the literary SF/F/H consumer is intelligent enough to not do this without first researching all the risks. (Hey, if you're into autoerotic asphixiation or any form of asphyxiation during sex, whatever you choose to do consensually with your partner is your business.)

I would be more concerned with someone emulating the scene in "The Dark Knight" when Batman rides the BatCycle up against the wall and turns it for quick braking.  I'm sure someone in the next couple of weeks will end up in the hospital from THAT.

"Think of it as evolution in action."  -- Niven & Pournelle, Oath of Fealty

[slowmovingthing]

This is my first post on the message boards.

I thought the way Mur read the story seemed to emphasize the leap of faith the mother places in the daughter at the climax more than other people who have commented on this thread have mentioned.

I thought the story was great, but I agreed with those who feel the asphyxiation segment of the story was unnecessary.

The device to drive the plot (autoerotic asphyxiation) reminded me of the novel "The Terminal Man" by Michael Crichton, where someone with a neurological disorder that results in blackouts accompanied by frenzied violence is given a neural implant to short circuit the neurological thunderstorm in his brain that causes the blackouts.
They do so by using electrodes to stimulate the happiness and sense of well-being centers of the brain, as well as the sexual release center. Both the markers monitored by the device and the activation for the device are involuntary on the part of the patient.

And well everyone knows about the rats that starve to death when given the choice between food and activating sexual release electrodes implanted in their brains.

The end result is biology misusing technology to fulfill urges deep seeded in our very makeup for the advancement of the plot.

Now, activation of electrodes on the sexual pleasure centers can be argued as an even more undesirable action for a pre-teen than autoerotic asphyxiation.

But I think the idea that some tenant for the involuntary operations of biological beings results in the misuse or unconventional use of the neurological implant could have been a useful avenue to advance the plot, play up the mother's pivotal leap of faith and make people squirm less.


my $0.02.

[stePH]

This is my first post on the message boards.

Welcome to the party. 

The device to drive the plot (autoerotic asphyxiation) reminded me of the novel "The Terminal Man" by Michael Crichton, where someone with a neurological disorder that results in blackouts accompanied by frenzied violence is given a neural implant to short circuit the neurological thunderstorm in his brain that causes the blackouts.
They do so by using electrodes to stimulate the happiness and sense of well-being centers of the brain, as well as the sexual release center. Both the markers monitored by the device and the activation for the device are involuntary on the part of the patient.

And well everyone knows about the rats that starve to death when given the choice between food and activating sexual release electrodes implanted in their brains.

The end result is biology misusing technology to fulfill urges deep seeded in our very makeup for the advancement of the plot.

Which in turn reminds me of Niven again, specifically the "droud" device used by Louis Wu in The Ringworld Engineers.  It was a recreational device to directly stimulate the brain's pleasure center.

[strixus]

I don't know if its just me, or the stories Steve has been running, or what, but for nearly two months now, nothing that has aired on Escape Pod has really caught me enough to make it through the first 30 min, let alone the full episode. This story especially was a giant meh. I made it to the conversation in the car, and said "Ok, you know what, I have other things to listen to that are far more interesting" and turned it off. I guess it either stretched the limits to which I can suspend disbelief within a realistic setting, or wasn't fantastic enough for me to ignore the attempted realism.

I guess what I'm saying is that I just don't buy any of the premise of this story on any grounds, and as such it fell totally flat for me.

[slowmovingthing]

Welcome to the party. 

Thanks!

Which in turn reminds me of Niven again, specifically the "droud" device used by Louis Wu in The Ringworld Engineers.  It was a recreational device to directly stimulate the brain's pleasure center.

I haven't read much Niven. Mostly Neutron Star and the Mote in God's Eye.
Good stuff.
Given how much the people in the known space universe enjoy thier recreation, I can see him coming up with such a device.

[wintermute]

Welcome to the party. 

Thanks!

Which in turn reminds me of Niven again, specifically the "droud" device used by Louis Wu in The Ringworld Engineers.  It was a recreational device to directly stimulate the brain's pleasure center.

I haven't read much Niven. Mostly Neutron Star and the Mote in God's Eye.
Good stuff.
Given how much the people in the known space universe enjoy thier recreation, I can see him coming up with such a device.

That was mostly in the early stages of Known Space, when we'd only gotten as far as the asteroid belt. Though a ranged version (known as a "tasp") appeared in one of the Ringworld novels.

[stePH]

That was mostly in the early stages of Known Space, when we'd only gotten as far as the asteroid belt. Though a ranged version (known as a "tasp") appeared in one of the Ringworld novels.

It was in Ringworld.  Louis Wu got the "wirehead" habit later on after somebody used a tasp on him in the space between that and The Ringworld Engineers

[wintermute]

It was in Ringworld.  Louis Wu got the "wirehead" habit later on after somebody used a tasp on him in the space between that and The Ringworld Engineers

Ah, that sounds right. It's been a few years since I read Ringworld, but I go back to the Gil the ARM stories every so often.

I like a good science fiction detective story.