Author Topic: Watchmen Trailer  (Read 44406 times)

wintermute

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Reply #75 on: August 20, 2008, 06:15:17 PM
I agree with wintermute, Rorschach isn't religious.  I don't recall any religious comments whatsoever regarding his charatcer.  His was the Black is black and White is white(hence his love of the material he made into his mask) - his belief was "you do bad things you get punished/hurt"
Doesn't explain his sexual hangups.
The fact that his mother was a prostitute, frequently suffering at the hands of her customers, and emotionally and physically abusive towards him might, just possibly, explain his distaste for sex and for women in general. It seems a rather better explanation than assuming he belongs to a fundamentalist religion which the authors simply never bother to show, anyway.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Rorschach’s actions and journal writings display a belief in moral absolutism and objectivism, where good and evil are clearly defined and evil must be violently punished. He has alienated himself from the rest of society to achieve these aims. Politically, he is an anti-communist, anti-liberal, reactionary, and strong nationalist. Rorschach is described by Alan Moore as an extremely right-wing character.
--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_(comics)

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Reply #76 on: August 20, 2008, 06:42:47 PM
I always saw the character of Rorschach as more of a comment on the Batman archtype.  What would have happened if Bruce Wayne had of been more damaged by the death of his parents.  I feel that Moore was also making a comment on the 'unrealistic'-ness of comic book heroes when he wrote Watchmen, and developed his characters along the lines of how 'real' peopel would react in the situations he presents them.
I agree with that somewhat, the more rough, desipicable version of Batman, but really more the Punisher/Question/Spirit type.  Clearly though Owlman is the 80's version of Bats with all the fancy gadgets.


I thought it was interesting that Moore seemed to split up Bruce Wayne/Batman into Rorschach and Nite Owl.  Maybe it was so he could deal with some of the issues completely seperately?  They both, to some extent, reminded me of Batman, though.  Although I like the Punisher comparison, too.  Which is probably timely, as I think he was hitting his stride in the 80s.

Yes, it is interesting isn't it.  Especially considering that both Rorschach and Nite Owl were partners of sorts before the Keane Act.  The two together might been seen as Moore's examination of Batman as a split personality:  Nite Owl as the (gadget laden but capable) Caped Crusader, Rorschach as the (psychotic but intelligent) Dark Knight.  The passage of the Keane Act effectively severed the personalities, with the Rorschach personality being allowed to descend deeper and deeper into paranoia and psychosis and the Nite Owl personality reverting to mild mannered Bruce Wayne (including the fortune though without the playboy aspects).

What part of 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn' didn't you understand?


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Reply #77 on: August 20, 2008, 06:50:37 PM
I always saw the character of Rorschach as more of a comment on the Batman archtype.  What would have happened if Bruce Wayne had of been more damaged by the death of his parents.  I feel that Moore was also making a comment on the 'unrealistic'-ness of comic book heroes when he wrote Watchmen, and developed his characters along the lines of how 'real' peopel would react in the situations he presents them.
I agree with that somewhat, the more rough, desipicable version of Batman, but really more the Punisher/Question/Spirit type.  Clearly though Owlman is the 80's version of Bats with all the fancy gadgets.


I thought it was interesting that Moore seemed to split up Bruce Wayne/Batman into Rorschach and Nite Owl.  Maybe it was so he could deal with some of the issues completely seperately?  They both, to some extent, reminded me of Batman, though.  Although I like the Punisher comparison, too.  Which is probably timely, as I think he was hitting his stride in the 80s.

Yes, it is interesting isn't it.  Especially considering that both Rorschach and Nite Owl were partners of sorts before the Keane Act.  The two together might been seen as Moore's examination of Batman as a split personality:  Nite Owl as the (gadget laden but capable) Caped Crusader, Rorschach as the (psychotic but intelligent) Dark Knight.  The passage of the Keane Act effectively severed the personalities, with the Rorschach personality being allowed to descend deeper and deeper into paranoia and psychosis and the Nite Owl personality reverting to mild mannered Bruce Wayne (including the fortune though without the playboy aspects).

Geez.  I never thought of it like psychotic/split personality aspect before but I love it.  It fits so perfectly.


wintermute

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Reply #78 on: August 20, 2008, 08:15:23 PM
Geez.  I never thought of it like psychotic/split personality aspect before but I love it.  It fits so perfectly.
It does. So much so that I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't actually a subconscious influence. Rorschach was based on The Question, and Nite Owl on Blue Beetle, and Moore's never suggested that Batman was any part of the equation, but this thread is starting to convince me that maybe there are things in there he didn't notice...

Or maybe not. Maybe it's just a great metaphor.

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Reply #79 on: August 20, 2008, 08:26:01 PM
I agree with wintermute, Rorschach isn't religious.  I don't recall any religious comments whatsoever regarding his charatcer.  His was the Black is black and White is white(hence his love of the material he made into his mask) - his belief was "you do bad things you get punished/hurt"
Doesn't explain his sexual hangups.
The fact that his mother was a prostitute, frequently suffering at the hands of her customers, and emotionally and physically abusive towards him might, just possibly, explain his distaste for sex and for women in general. It seems a rather better explanation than assuming he belongs to a fundamentalist religion which the authors simply never bother to show, anyway.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Rorschach’s actions and journal writings display a belief in moral absolutism and objectivism, where good and evil are clearly defined and evil must be violently punished. He has alienated himself from the rest of society to achieve these aims. Politically, he is an anti-communist, anti-liberal, reactionary, and strong nationalist. Rorschach is described by Alan Moore as an extremely right-wing character.
--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_(comics)

Fine details have slipped my mind; I stand corrected.  I was due for another reread of the book, and was going to start this week, but with the movie's release still distand and possibly not even going to happen, I'm not really in a hurry.

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slic

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Reply #80 on: August 20, 2008, 09:44:42 PM
Geez.  I never thought of it like psychotic/split personality aspect before but I love it.  It fits so perfectly.
It does. So much so that I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't actually a subconscious influence. Rorschach was based on The Question, and Nite Owl on Blue Beetle, and Moore's never suggested that Batman was any part of the equation, but this thread is starting to convince me that maybe there are things in there he didn't notice...

Or maybe not. Maybe it's just a great metaphor.
I think that's a sign of very well considered characters; characters with real depth.  They grow outside the outlines their authors intend. 

Not sure if you read it somewhere wintermute, but I had never considered Nite Owl to be Blue Beetle.  I have never thought of the timelines, but I had thought the "new" BB look was based on Nite Owl.  Especially the shape of the flying bug.




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Reply #81 on: August 20, 2008, 10:47:29 PM
Not sure if you read it somewhere wintermute, but I had never considered Nite Owl to be Blue Beetle.  I have never thought of the timelines, but I had thought the "new" BB look was based on Nite Owl.  Especially the shape of the flying bug.

FromWikipedia:
Quote
Dick Giordano, who had worked for Charlton Comics, suggested using a cast of old Charlton characters that had recently been acquired by DC. However, the Charlton heroes were being slowly integrated into normal DC continuity. Because Moore and Gibbons wanted to do a serious storyline in which some of the newly acquired characters would die and the world would be drastically altered by story's end, using the Charlton heroes was not feasible. Giordano then suggested that Moore and Gibbons simply start from scratch and create their own characters. So while certain characters in Watchmen are loosely based upon the Charlton characters (such as Dr. Manhattan, who was inspired by Captain Atom; Rorschach, who was based upon the Question; and Nite Owl, who was loosely based on the Blue Beetle as well as Batman), Moore decided to create characters that ultimately would only casually resemble their Charlton counterparts.


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Reply #82 on: August 21, 2008, 02:03:08 PM
FromWikipedia:
Dick Giordano, who had worked for Charlton Comics, suggested using a cast of old Charlton characters that had recently been acquired by DC. However, the Charlton heroes were being slowly integrated into normal DC continuity. Because Moore and Gibbons wanted to do a serious storyline in which some of the newly acquired characters would die and the world would be drastically altered by story's end, using the Charlton heroes was not feasible. Giordano then suggested that Moore and Gibbons simply start from scratch and create their own characters. So while certain characters in Watchmen are loosely based upon the Charlton characters (such as Dr. Manhattan, who was inspired by Captain Atom; Rorschach, who was based upon the Question; and Nite Owl, who was loosely based on the Blue Beetle as well as Batman), Moore decided to create characters that ultimately would only casually resemble their Charlton counterparts.

Well there goes my finely constructed (or is that deconstructed?) thesis.  Now I will never get that PhD.!  Just kidding, I already have a MA and do not want to go back to school again, ever (unless I am the one at the front facing the students instead of the one at the front facing the lecturn).

Anyway, the Rorschach and Nite Owl characters do bear more than a passing resemblance to The Question and Blue Beetle.  The can be no doubt that Moore and Lloyd based R/NO on ?/BB.  I am still fond of my whole psychotic, split personality Batman idea (but mostly 'cause it's mine, bwahahahahaha), and it does make sense in a intertextual way; and I think that the argument gets stronger as the past relationship is revealed and the new relationship is developed (pre- and post-Keane Act).  As Nite Owl is drawn deeper into the conspiracy Rorschach has uncovered, he continually acts as a restraining force, dulling the violence that Rorschach has (and continues to) indulge in.  Nite Owl interrogates, Rorschach snaps fingers (which is something I can see Batman doing).  Two semi-opposing personalities working together for a common goal.  In the case of Batman, we can see these two influences as well (I really should re-read Dark Knight and Watchmen again with an eye for this).  In Miller's Dark Knight we see in Batman/Bruce Wayne a constant struggle between the opposing personalities of restraint (old, pre-retirement, pre-Richard/Robin death) and the ultra-violent (new, post-retirement Mutant fighting, Joker killing, Superman stomping).  This, were I asked, is the core of the narrative of Dark Knight.  Batman has always been a violent character; he relies on violence (and a hefty dose of intelligence, but those things are often found together) where other superheroes rely on their powers.  In fact, one could argue that Batman must be violent, it is the only way he can compete.  Anyway, I digress.

I think that there is some meat there for the enterprising essayist.  If I ever get to meet Moore, I will ask him (yeah, like that will happen).

What part of 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn' didn't you understand?


stePH

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Reply #83 on: August 21, 2008, 02:48:18 PM
Well there goes my finely constructed (or is that deconstructed?) thesis.  Now I will never get that PhD.!  Just kidding, I already have a MA and do not want to go back to school again, ever (unless I am the one at the front facing the students instead of the one at the front facing the lecturn).

Anyway, the Rorschach and Nite Owl characters do bear more than a passing resemblance to The Question and Blue Beetle.  The can be no doubt that Moore and Lloyd based R/NO on ?/BB.  I am still fond of my whole psychotic, split personality Batman idea (but mostly 'cause it's mine, bwahahahahaha), and it does make sense in a intertextual way; and I think that the argument gets stronger as the past relationship is revealed and the new relationship is developed (pre- and post-Keane Act). 

Well, the Watchmen character design was based on those prior characters, as has been cited, but I don't think that invalidates the notion of Night Owl and Rorschach being two aspects of Batman's personality.  I rather like the idea myself now that it's been brought up here.  Maybe it was even a conscious choice by Moore to have it that way.

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wintermute

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Reply #84 on: August 21, 2008, 04:23:19 PM
I don't think it was a conscious choice, but it may well have been an unconscious influence. And, even if it wasn't, it's a valid interpretation.

I don't entirely hold with Derrida's ideas that "there is only the text"*, but it's generally a decent starting point. And the idea that Rorschach and Nite Owl represent two faces of a single character (one as deeply embedded in the Zeitgeist as Bats, no less) is one that could at a lot of depth to the book.

Of course, next time I read it, I'm also going to be thinking of Ozymandias as Tony Stark...


* I think that an author has a privileged position from which he can provide non-textural opinions and background on the story, and have them carry more weight than if they come from a third party. But this doesn't mean that the author is always right about their work; as an obvious example, Danny Boyle claims that 28 Days later is not a zombie movie, the lackwitted fool. Anyway, to be fair, Moore has never (to my knowledge) said that Rorschach and Nite Owl are not Batman, so it's probably a distinction without a difference.

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Reply #85 on: August 21, 2008, 05:14:44 PM
Of course, next time I read it, I'm also going to be thinking of Ozymandias as Tony Stark...

I can't remember ... did Ozymandias ever make a suit of powered armor?

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wintermute

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Reply #86 on: August 21, 2008, 05:19:37 PM
Of course, next time I read it, I'm also going to be thinking of Ozymandias as Tony Stark...

I can't remember ... did Ozymandias ever make a suit of powered armor?
No, he never did. But an industrialist weapons designer who thinks he's smarter than everyone else and is prepared to kill everyone to save the world? That's Stark right there, even if it isn't Iron Man.

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Reply #87 on: August 21, 2008, 05:45:17 PM
Of course, next time I read it, I'm also going to be thinking of Ozymandias as Tony Stark...

I can't remember ... did Ozymandias ever make a suit of powered armor?
No, he never did. But an industrialist weapons designer who thinks he's smarter than everyone else and is prepared to kill everyone to save the world? That's Stark right there, even if it isn't Iron Man.
;D Point taken.

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Reply #88 on: August 22, 2008, 01:55:25 AM
Of course, next time I read it, I'm also going to be thinking of Ozymandias as Tony Stark...

I can't remember ... did Ozymandias ever make a suit of powered armor?
No, he never did. But an industrialist weapons designer who thinks he's smarter than everyone else and is prepared to kill everyone to save the world? That's Stark right there, even if it isn't Iron Man.
Stark or Ra's Al Ghul?
Stark has never been willing to sacrifice anyone for the better good.  Way back in Armor Wars he even went up against Cap to get back his stolen tech to prevent his work from having any reprecussions of injury.

I also agree with stePH and wintermute - basically just because the general look of the characters were based on pre-existing designs doesn't mean that their personalities were.  In fact the Question was more of a mystery man (like Phantom Stranger) than a violent psychopath.  I would say that Nite Owl and the BB from the 60's were similar though.



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Reply #89 on: August 28, 2008, 08:28:48 PM
Stark has never been willing to sacrifice anyone for the better good. 

Uuuuh, have you read any Marvel comics in the last two years?

The difference between Tony Stark and Victor Von Doom is about paper thin right now...



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Reply #90 on: August 28, 2008, 09:32:03 PM
I was thinking about that, too.  It was one of the driving forces behind Marvel's Civil War (although I suppose you could say what Stark is doing in the Marvel U right now is coming to grips with whether or not sacrifices should be made for the greater good). 


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Reply #91 on: November 14, 2008, 02:46:26 AM
new trailer available.

there are a couple of results of live action i wasn't expecting. Dr Manhattan has a calm, centered appearance through so much of the story that actually seeing him move and speak felt oddly different. on the other hand Rorschach's animated mask effect is fantastic.



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Reply #92 on: November 14, 2008, 02:57:42 AM
new trailer available.

there are a couple of results of live action i wasn't expecting. Dr Manhattan has a calm, centered appearance through so much of the story that actually seeing him move and speak felt oddly different. on the other hand Rorschach's animated mask effect is fantastic.

This sounds weird, but I can only hear him in text. There's an authority in that silent text of Doc Manhattan that I haven't gotten from what little we've heard of him. But there was something in the cadence which might evolve into something that works in a longer form.

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slic

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Reply #93 on: November 14, 2008, 03:29:45 AM
I'm warming to the film.  As I said, I can see really liking it - but it will never match the comic.

I was impressed with Nite Owl's look, and ditto on Rorschach's mask.

I thought Ozy looked too much like Robin's movie costume.  And Dr. M looked too computer animated for me.



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Reply #94 on: December 30, 2008, 04:36:52 PM
And the possibility that we'll all see it on time in the theaters get a little smaller.

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Reply #95 on: January 03, 2009, 09:37:27 PM
I feel like a silly twit for it bothering me but everyone looks 10years to young and in to good of shape.



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Reply #96 on: January 03, 2009, 10:07:52 PM
I feel like a silly twit for it bothering me but everyone looks 10years to young and in to good of shape.

Not at all.  That's kind of the essence of Watchmen ... these are supposed to be retired superheroes, past their prime (except Ozymandias and Doctor Manhattan, maybe).  Young hardbodies are exactly what they shouldn't be.

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slic

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Reply #97 on: January 09, 2009, 12:57:36 AM
hello kitty, I mean stePH is right.  Owl Man in particular is all dumpy and out of shape - Batman if he let himself go.



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Reply #98 on: January 10, 2009, 01:09:32 AM
On Rorschach's motivations having to do with religion--considering what he says while being evaluated, I'd say that's pretty unlikely:

"Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever, and we are alone."

...

"This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not Fate that butchers them or Destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It's us. Only us." (Chapter VI, page 26)

As for his politics--he says in the first page of the first issue that people should follow the lead of men like his (absent) father and "President Truman." Also, on page 19, after meeting with Viedt, he says that Veidt "is pompered and decadent, betraying even his own shallow, liberal affections."



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Reply #99 on: January 16, 2009, 04:04:52 PM
Money changes hands, problem's fixed:

Quote
WB, Fox make deal for 'Watchmen'
Warner to open superhero film March 6

Warner Bros. and Fox have settled their very public battle over "Watchmen." A deal has been hammered out that that gives WB some face-saving points, but which gives Fox the equivalent of a movie star’s gross participation.
Warner Bros. gets the right to open its superhero pic on March 6 as planned, and Fox's logo will not be on the film, sources said.

Fox, on the other hand, will emerge with an upfront cash payment that sources pegged between $5 million and $10 million, covering reimbursement of $1.4 million the studio invested in development fees, and also millions of dollars in legal fees incurred during the case.

More importantly, Fox will get a gross participation in "Watchmen" that scales between 5% and 8.5%, depending on the film’s worldwide revenues. Fox also participates as a gross player in any sequels and spinoffs, sources said.

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