"The Dark Knight"... NOT the greatest movie EVAR!!!!1111one (WARNING: SPOILERS)

[Listener]

SPOILERS!!!!!







I haven't seen a thread for it, so I'm going to start this.

I liked "The Dark Knight".  I really did.  I thought the music, the scenery, the acting, all were good.  Heath Ledger was at least as good as Jack Nicholson (which means I may have thought he was better, which a lot of my friends didn't get).  The death of Commissioner Gordon was well-played and I really, truly didn't expect it to play out the way it did.  But then, I guess in the same way that the death of Shepherd Book un-primed us for the death of Wash, so did Gordon's un-prime us for Rachel's.

I really didn't like the whole Two-Face angle.  I think a potentially-deep character was wasted in dying so soon.  The Joker is still alive, as is Scarecrow (IIRC), so we have those villains to recycle as needed, but there was so much more that could've been done with Two-Face and he's wasted as a "let's just get revenge on everyone in as fair a manner as possible."  The character himself was played and written well.

I picked up that Ramirez was going to be the inside person by the end of Act One.

Anyway... I liked it.  But it wasn't the greatest movie ever.  Does that make me a bad geek, refusing to admit that I HEART TDK and Heath Ledger ZOMG OSCAR PERFORMANCE FTW is not my opinion?  All my geek friends are getting on my case for not totally marking out over TDK.  The only reason I even saw it in theaters is because my parents were in town and my wife and I wanted to get out of the house for a few hours so we left my daughter with them.

PS: Mods, if this needs to be rolled into another thread, please let me know.

[DKT]

I'm not reading this because I haven't actually seen it yet but wanted to tell you thanks, anyway.  I haven't read a single bad review of the movie yet, and was getting worried that my expectations could never be met.  So thanks for dropping it a few pegs for me.  Maybe now it has a chance

[Ocicat]

I really liked it, it was even better than Batman Begins.  But no, it wasn't amazingfantasticOMG!!!one!

I was actually okay with the way they used Two Face.  No, he's not around for another movie, but I'm not sure another movie with him would have been *good*.  They hit the high points for the character really efficiently.  Drawing him out over a whole film is either going to make him totally unsympathetic, or worse, just another gangster with a gimmick - as he so often is in the comics.

No, what I had a problem with was suspending disbelief that the Joker got away with all this stuff.  He sure has a superpower to get tons of explosives into places without anybody suspecting a thing!  And to just walk around (or drive around) in place that there should be tons of cops, and yet there are not - or if there are, the cops for some reason don't have guns?  He should have been shot a few dozen times there, Batman or no.

But really?  It doesn't matter much - he's a stand in for suicide bombers anyway.

[Talia]

It was Ledger's performance that made it for me. Its been a while since a movie character got under my skin that way. Creeeeeeepyyy.

[Listener]

It was Ledger's performance that made it for me. Its been a while since a movie character got under my skin that way. Creeeeeeepyyy.

They blew it early with the disappearing pencil trick.  Once he did that, there's nothing more that could've really creeped me out.  Though the knife in the mouth was worrisome.

[Loz]

The thing I've loved about Nolan's films is that they have been genuinely creepy in a way most super-hero films never try to be. There is nothing admirable about his Joker, Scarecrow or Two-Face, sure, people will probably dress up the same for Hallowe'en (and Internet trolls are already using 'Why So Serious?' tags to try and shut down legitimate discussions) but they aren't even glamorous in the way that villains normally end up being. It was great seeing a Ledger performance that seemed to be the Joker of Arkham Asylum brought to life, and a Harvey Dent/Two-Face story from The Long Hallowe'en (IIRC). Combined with a more likeable Bruce Wayne this was a great and unsettling film, just a real shame about Ledger's untimely death.

[MacArthurBug]

yeeeh I agree. BUT: And this is a big one (haha) my newly teenaged daughter now hearts the bat. She wants to see more. She needs to see comic books. This movie, somehow- where no other action movie has managed to- geeked out my teenager. She truly thinks this is the BEST!!one!1! movie EVER. So.. just for getting my kid into something we can share... it gains more cool points.

[Loz]

Just don't ruin it by buying her Arkham Asylum or The Killing Joke but she might like The Long Hallowe'en.

[Ocicat]

Just don't ruin it by buying her Arkham Asylum or The Killing Joke but she might like The Long Hallowe'en.

How is buying her good stories in the movie's same dark tone ruining it?  You think she can't handle seeing where some of the movie's themes came from?!?

[stePH]

Just don't ruin it by buying her Arkham Asylum or The Killing Joke but she might like The Long Hallowe'en.

How is buying her good stories in the movie's same dark tone ruining it?  You think she can't handle seeing where some of the movie's themes came from?!?

Yes, what's wrong with The Killing Joke?  I thought it was brilliant, like most of Moore's work. 

(Haven't read the other two books mentioned.)

[Loz]

Because neither are anywhere near close to their best work, though in the case of AA I bought the anniversary edition with the scripts and saw that in several cases that Dave McKean appeared to decide to just ignore what Morrison had written and draw his own thing (although, to be fair, there may have been editorial interference that wasn't noted in the script). AA is, I think, a story for the fan, not the new enthusiast (which is not a slam against anyone at all).

TKJ is very pretty artistically but less interesting thematically. The biggest problem I have, coming back to it, is the shooting of Batgirl/Barbara Gordon, one of the biggest 'women in refrigerator' moments in DCs history. The film actually handles the whole 'anyone is one bad day away from becoming the Joker' story better than the book, which wraps it up with the Joker and Batman sharing a hearty guffaw despite all the people the former has killed or maimed.

[stePH]

Because neither are anywhere near close to their best work, though in the case of AA I bought the anniversary edition with the scripts and saw that in several cases that Dave McKean appeared to decide to just ignore what Morrison had written and draw his own thing ...

Ah, you had me at Dave McKean.  I've never liked his work.

[MacArthurBug]

Loz, thanks for the advice. I'm pretty careful to screen EVERYTHING that I put before this kid- mostly 'cause she is picky.  Generally if I think it's cool she well too.

[Loz]

(O/T)

Ah, you had me at Dave McKean.  I've never liked his work.

Whereas I really like it, I just dislike the fact that, on numerous occasions, the whole point of stories that Morrison has been trying to tell have been ruined by artists who apparently don't seem to understand and/or don't ask him about his scripts and end up drawing something different (see the penultimate issue of The Invisibles)
(/O/T)

[stePH]

(O/T)

Ah, you had me at Dave McKean.  I've never liked his work.

Whereas I really like it, I just dislike the fact that, on numerous occasions, the whole point of stories that Morrison has been trying to tell have been ruined by artists who apparently don't seem to understand and/or don't ask him about his scripts and end up drawing something different (see the penultimate issue of The Invisibles)
(/O/T)

My local library has a copy of Arkham Asylum and I almost checked it out ... but briefly paging through it I saw McKean's usual and gave it a pass. 

He's also kept me from buying several Neil Gaiman books such as Mr. Punch.

[Planish]

I rather liked Ledger's Joker. I'm glad he didn't try to laugh maniacally all through the movie though, because he couldn't pull it off.

Things got confusing for me from around the hospital bombing onward. Too many quick location changes, lots of hard-to-hear talking, and so on. Still entertaining though. Our little local theatre has a Tuesday "cheap night", first-run movies for $5, so it was worth at least that much.

We sat right through to the end of the credits. Nope - no surprise extra ending (a la Iron Man or Narnia:LW&W).

[Loz]

My local library has a copy of Arkham Asylum and I almost checked it out ... but briefly paging through it I saw McKean's usual and gave it a pass. 

He's also kept me from buying several Neil Gaiman books such as Mr. Punch.

I enjoyed Mr Punch, in fact I don't think there's anything of McKean's that I don't like, though I think he concentrates too much on how individual images look and he's not particularly strong on stringing them together into a coherent narrative.

His Vertigo Tarot set is beautiful, and he's just done another set of his own, which I really really want!

[Loz]

We sat right through to the end of the credits. Nope - no surprise extra ending (a la Iron Man or Narnia:LW&W).

Yeah, where was the scene asking Batman if he wanted to join The Avengers Initiative? 

[Darwinist]

We sat right through to the end of the credits. Nope - no surprise extra ending (a la Iron Man or Narnia:LW&W).

I missed the Iron Man extra.  What was it?

[stePH]

We sat right through to the end of the credits. Nope - no surprise extra ending (a la Iron Man or Narnia:LW&W).

I missed the Iron Man extra.  What was it?

Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury of S.H.I.E.L.D.

[slic]

I really enjoyed this movie.  The big motorcycle fight/chase scene was way to long, but that's about my only complaint.


*******************Spoilers*******************


For me this is how superhero tales are meant to be - it's about bigger themes, about archtypes and mythologies.  I've been a reader/collector for 30+ years now with Bats being one of my favourites.  And, personally, I found that Batman could easily have been a secondary character in this movie and it still would have been excellent.

Mr. Bales ridiculous gravelly voice annoyed me, so I was glad there was little dialog for him.

One of the best scenes in the movie was on the convict ferry when the felon throws the remote over the side!

And Two-Face isn't dead - sure we saw a body on the ground, but the funeral was for Harvey Dent the public persona.  I wouldn't be surprised if Two-Face made a cameo in the same way Scarecrow did.

There are many other interesting themes, but I leave them alone for now

Loz -I think you are completely wrong about The Killing Joke. I also think you missed both the main point of the comic (which is opposite of the movie - in the movie Joker succeeded in "turning" Harvey Dent, and in the comic, he was entirely unsuccessful in "turning" James Gordon), and the meaning of the ending.  The joke was an explanation of why the Joker could never be able to stop himself, and the laughter was a sad reflection of both men's inability to cope with the grotesque consequences to come because of it.  I would even go so far as to say that Batman sees his own strict code, his own inability to kill the Joker (as he alluded to in the beginning of the story), is as much to blame as the Joker's flaws.

You are right about Brian Bolland's artwork though - it is moving.

I had never heard the term "women in refridgerator", and looked it up - quite interesting, but not overly surprising.  I think it is an unfair comment for this story though, keep in mind the story was written over 20 years ago.  Barbara's shooting was crucial to the story - the fact that she had a secret identity as Batgirl was inconsequential - her near fatal flaw was being Jim Gordon's daughter.
Also I think that keeping Barbara a parapalegic and much later giving her a fantastic purpose in the DCU has been far more interesting than magically curing her back a la Batman. 

MacArthurBug - glad to hear you screen the books.  I don't think The Killing Joke is any worse than the movie, but  find a difference in static gore and and bright explosions on the screen (In particular, the scene in the Chemical factory in the comic still gets to me).

I'm curious if your daugher is more into the herosim of the Batman or the chaotic nilism of the Joker.  The answer would change any recommendations I could make.  There are quite a few graphic novels out there.  Personally, I've enjoyed Batman in the Seventies - these came out just before my time, and I found them to be interesting stories with a serious undertone at times.

[Loz]

I had never heard the term "women in refridgerator", and looked it up - quite interesting, but not overly surprising.  I think it is an unfair comment for this story though, keep in mind the story was written over 20 years ago.

What has that got to do with anything?

  Barbara's shooting was crucial to the story - the fact that she had a secret identity as Batgirl was inconsequential

That is sort of the point of my complaint. I read The Killing Joke long before I got into the DCU so didn't even know Barbara Gordon was Batgirl.

Also I think that keeping Barbara a parapalegic and much later giving her a fantastic purpose in the DCU has been far more interesting than magically curing her back a la Batman. 

There's no connection between her L33T haxxor skillz and her being in a wheelchair. And this is a problem of the whole shared universes concept, John Stewart was in a wheelchair for a while, he can walk now, Superman was dead, Batman had a broken spine, they are both better now (over in Marvel-land Professor X is walking/not-walking with annoying repetition), the Mist got cured of his Alzheimers by demon-magic, but Barbara Gordon doesn't get let off? It's not like she has to give up being Oracle to go out swinging on the batrope round Gotham again.

[slic]

I had never heard the term "women in refridgerator", and looked it up - quite interesting, but not overly surprising.  I think it is an unfair comment for this story though, keep in mind the story was written over 20 years ago.

What has that got to do with anything?

I don't think I understand the meaning of "women in the refridgerator" the same way you do.  First off, the reference seems to kick off from a GL storyline with Kyle as the GL (way after Killing joke) and more importantly, at a time when killing off characters was the "vogue" way of ramping up the tension in DC comics.  I agree with the general premise that female characters get the dirty end of the stick in many cases, but I think it's more that 2nd string characters get the shafted, and there are just more female second stringers (that's a big injustice for another day).

The reason I think it's unfair to this story is a) Batgirl/Barbara may not have been an A-list player, but she wasn't an ordinary B-lister either.  She wasn't as disposible character, simply shot and forgetten (hence my Orcale comment later) and  b) The shooting had ripples, an impact far outside the story, similar to Wonder Woman killing Max Lord.

I agree that way too often the injured heroes get miracle cures, and that was my point too.  I agree that it is out of the norm in the superhero universe for her to remain crippled (In Final Crisis, at Martian Manhunter's funeral, Superman even referenced the possiblilty of resurrection since it happens so often). 
While I'm sure somewhere in a comic, some writer came up with a lame-ass excuse why she isn't cured, it doesn't matter to me.  Oracle in a wheelchair is way more interesting than another Bat-female. 

And I think that has more to do with why isn't cured than because she's a female character is a strongly skewed macho-oriented universe. Hence my arguement that this isn't a "woman in fridge"-type plot point.

[wintermute]

One of the best scenes in the movie was on the convict ferry when the felon throws the remote over the side!

I was watching that, and thinking "but, what if the saltwater shorts it triggering mechanism? What it it hits the side of the ship on the way down?" It was a nice sentiment, but criminally inept in its handling.

And Two-Face isn't dead - sure we saw a body on the ground, but the funeral was for Harvey Dent the public persona.  I wouldn't be surprised if Two-Face made a cameo in the same way Scarecrow did.

Two-Face needs to be dead. If he turns up later on, then it's going to completely destroy what Gordon and Batman achieved at the end. And if he wasn't dead, then what are the police supposed to do? Let him go, or arrest him? Which of those won't lead to disaster, at least in Gordon's mind? If he survived the fall, the least bad option is to put a bullet in his brain.

It's a shame, because I do think they've wasted Two-Face after a wonderful origin, but there's no way Gordon can allow him to leave the scene of the crime alive.

[MacArthurBug]

Slic: A little of both: Overall? I believe it's the heroisum. We watched Batman begins and she was almost as entranced with that one. I think she liked the Joker (Personally he's one of my fav. comic villans) as a bad guy, but she really loved Batmans gadgets, sadness, belief in justice, etc. Thanks for the feedback, I'm always so happy to find something I can geek out on with her.