Author Topic: "The Dark Knight"... NOT the greatest movie EVAR!!!!1111one (WARNING: SPOILERS)  (Read 23706 times)

Loz

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It's a shame, because I do think they've wasted Two-Face after a wonderful origin, but there's no way Gordon can allow him to leave the scene of the crime alive.

On the other hand, a film with the tension of whether Two-Face steps out of the shadows and reveals that he is, in fact, Harvey Dent, to the general public (as opposed to the cops and frazzled bystanders) might be quite interesting.



wintermute

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It's a shame, because I do think they've wasted Two-Face after a wonderful origin, but there's no way Gordon can allow him to leave the scene of the crime alive.
On the other hand, a film with the tension of whether Two-Face steps out of the shadows and reveals that he is, in fact, Harvey Dent, to the general public (as opposed to the cops and frazzled bystanders) might be quite interesting.
Two-Face isn't a behind-the-scenes Machiavellian. I can't imagine him being in the shadows in the first place. And Harvey Dent was famous enough that as soon as someone sees him from the right, they're pretty likely to recognise him. Anyone he comes into any kind of contact with is going to be pretty sure that he's Dent.

I suppose you could do it as "yes, the rumours are true: Dent is a mass-murdering bastard and the police faked his death to try and pin the blame on someone else", but not as "Gasp! Dent's still alive!", but given that that was exactly what they were trying to avoid it seems unlikely that Gordon and Batman would leave that possibility open.

But really, why would they stage an elaborate pantomime of a funeral if he wasn't really in the coffin? There are just too many ways it could blow up and destroy not only Gordon's career, but everything that funeral was meant to achieve.

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I agree that Bats and the Commish wanted to save Harvey's rep and give Gotham a shining example.  But, first off, I can easily see the discussion going along and no one really thinking long term/overall consequences, or at least thinking they could keep it under control (it's happened before - Chernobyl, Sex in the Oval Office, preachers having gay affairs....). 
Second, even if they did, it might go like this - Harvey's in Arkham getting plastic surgery and therapy, and they say to themselves, "once he's better, we'll tell everyone we faked his death for his own protection" (it worked for James Gordon :))
When people want something bad enough they can convince themselves of anything

Speaking of this, I was quite disappointed in the portrayal of Batman in two ways:
1)wanting out of the game so bad that he was willing to toss it all on Harvey's shoulders. 
2)If he really felt that a "normal" guy is what Gotham needed then why did he ever don the costume in the first place - why not become a public defender himself?  What's more of an example than a rich kid tossing it all away and working for the public good?

Way back in the comics they showed Bruce wanting to be a cop, but he found there were too many rules in the way.  Something may be just but illegal and vice versa.



Loz

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Speaking of this, I was quite disappointed in the portrayal of Batman in two ways:
1)wanting out of the game so bad that he was willing to toss it all on Harvey's shoulders.

He was concerned that his presence was making things worse, encouraging criminals to become even more extreme to fight him and encouraging citizens to become more extra-curicular in their attempts to fight back. It's what seems to be becoming the standard 'second film hero doubts himself' motif, though done a lot better than Spiderman 2.

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2)If he really felt that a "normal" guy is what Gotham needed then why did he ever don the costume in the first place - why not become a public defender himself?  What's more of an example than a rich kid tossing it all away and working for the public good?

There was nothing said about what Bruce would do next, so he could have well done something like you suggest. As for why he didn't do that in the first place, part of the reason he was so impressed by Dent was that he had helped clean up the GPD and assorted legal services, back when Bruce was ready to start out as Batman they were too much in the pay of the crime families.



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Second, even if they did, it might go like this - Harvey's in Arkham getting plastic surgery and therapy,...

Like in The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller?  That didn't work, as I recall.

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slic

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Speaking of this, I was quite disappointed in the portrayal of Batman in two ways:
1)wanting out of the game so bad that he was willing to toss it all on Harvey's shoulders.
He was concerned that his presence was making things worse, encouraging criminals to become even more extreme to fight him and encouraging citizens to become more extra-curicular in their attempts to fight back.
Fair enough, I didn't get that, but I can see the point.

2)If he really felt that a "normal" guy is what Gotham needed then why did he ever don the costume in the first place - why not become a public defender himself?  What's more of an example than a rich kid tossing it all away and working for the public good?

There was nothing said about what Bruce would do next, so he could have well done something like you suggest. As for why he didn't do that in the first place, part of the reason he was so impressed by Dent was that he had helped clean up the GPD and assorted legal services, back when Bruce was ready to start out as Batman they were too much in the pay of the crime families.
Sorry, I'm not buying it.  Batman's always been driven and may have had the occasional crisis of faith but never about his "mission".  I didn't think it suited the character.



Second, even if they did, it might go like this - Harvey's in Arkham getting plastic surgery and therapy,...

Like in The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller?  That didn't work, as I recall.
Which actually helps makes my point.  Someone else thought it was a good idea too ;)



contra

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I loved the movie, bar one thing that nagged at me for the whole thing
*spoilers*



Why didn't anyone ever tell Dent that the Joker tricked Batman and the cops?
At times it felt like they went out of their way not to tell him that Batman said he was going after the girl.

Dent seemed to feel like Batman deliberatly saved him... and that Batman let Rachel die.  Not the case, the Joker lied and switched the locations.  I feel if Dent knew that the Joker lied at that moment, he may have been less willing to listen to the Joker at all.  No matter go all darkside on us in the end.

Its a simple explanation, that could have changed the whole course of the movie... probably why it never happened... but it annoyed me anyway.

Or maybe I missed something... tell me if I did...

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slic

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Why didn't anyone ever tell Dent that the Joker tricked Batman and the cops?
At times it felt like they went out of their way not to tell him that Batman said he was going after the girl.
That's very interesting.  I never thought of it that way.  Once I realized that he was saving Dent, I had assumed he yelled "The Girl!" or whatever at Gordon telling him to go get the girl.  That Bats selfishly chose getting Dent to "save" Gotham and himself.



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Why didn't anyone ever tell Dent that the Joker tricked Batman and the cops?
At times it felt like they went out of their way not to tell him that Batman said he was going after the girl.
That's very interesting.  I never thought of it that way.  Once I realized that he was saving Dent, I had assumed he yelled "The Girl!" or whatever at Gordon telling him to go get the girl.  That Bats selfishly chose getting Dent to "save" Gotham and himself.
Yeah, me too.  I assumed I misheard Batman when he said he was going to save Rachel.  Thanks for clearing that up, Contra, it makes much more sense now.  Joker knew that Rachel's death would mess with both Batman and Dent.  Especially if it as perceived that her death could have been prevented.



Listener

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A note on suspension of disbelief, from ESPN's Gregg Easterbrook:

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The latest Batman installment is a hit, and well-made from a cinematography standpoint, but the Joker character was unrealism carried to an extreme, even by Hollywood's low standards. The Joker has hundreds of obedient, superefficient henchmen, including surgeons and high-ranking police officers, who serve him without question -- even though they know he murders his own henchmen. The Joker knows things no one could possibly know, such as what street the police van carrying Harvey Dent will turn down during a wild chase. (He has henchmen positioned on that street, one of dozens the van might have turned down). The Joker can get poison into the police commissioner's private office without anyone suspecting anything. City officials make a sudden decision to load several hundred people into ferries; in just a few hours, Joker is able to place thousands of pounds of explosives aboard the ferries without anyone noticing, plus rig devices to take over the ferries' engines. Joker is able to move thousands of pounds of explosives into Gotham General Hospital without anyone noticing. Positioning the explosives for the two giant-blast sequences in "The Dark Night" would have required large trucks and a front-loader carrying multiple heavy objects through places crawling with police officers without anyone noticing. Joker always knows exactly where everyone he wants to kill is in a huge city (how?); he's beaten to a pulp by Batman, yet just minutes later, easily overpowers a huge policeman; Joker steals from the mob, yet no mob soldier simply shoots him. Joker has a bomb sneaked into the jail where he's being held -- somehow he knew in advance what cell he would be in! -- and it blasts open the jail wall, plus kills all the police officers standing around the Joker, but does not hurt him.

I wonder how many people noticed that.

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Ocicat

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A note on suspension of disbelief, from ESPN's Gregg Easterbrook:

Quote
The latest Batman installment is a hit, and well-made from a cinematography standpoint, but the Joker character was unrealism carried to an extreme, even by Hollywood's low standards. The Joker has hundreds of obedient, superefficient henchmen, including surgeons and high-ranking police officers, who serve him without question -- even though they know he murders his own henchmen. The Joker knows things no one could possibly know, such as what street the police van carrying Harvey Dent will turn down during a wild chase. (He has henchmen positioned on that street, one of dozens the van might have turned down). The Joker can get poison into the police commissioner's private office without anyone suspecting anything. City officials make a sudden decision to load several hundred people into ferries; in just a few hours, Joker is able to place thousands of pounds of explosives aboard the ferries without anyone noticing, plus rig devices to take over the ferries' engines. Joker is able to move thousands of pounds of explosives into Gotham General Hospital without anyone noticing. Positioning the explosives for the two giant-blast sequences in "The Dark Night" would have required large trucks and a front-loader carrying multiple heavy objects through places crawling with police officers without anyone noticing. Joker always knows exactly where everyone he wants to kill is in a huge city (how?); he's beaten to a pulp by Batman, yet just minutes later, easily overpowers a huge policeman; Joker steals from the mob, yet no mob soldier simply shoots him. Joker has a bomb sneaked into the jail where he's being held -- somehow he knew in advance what cell he would be in! -- and it blasts open the jail wall, plus kills all the police officers standing around the Joker, but does not hurt him.

I wonder how many people noticed that.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/080826

Ya, I noticed that.  A lot.  From my first post in this thread:
No, what I had a problem with was suspending disbelief that the Joker got away with all this stuff.  He sure has a superpower to get tons of explosives into places without anybody suspecting a thing!  And to just walk around (or drive around) in place that there should be tons of cops, and yet there are not - or if there are, the cops for some reason don't have guns?  He should have been shot a few dozen times there, Batman or no.

But really?  It doesn't matter much - he's a stand in for suicide bombers anyway.



Listener

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Ya, I noticed that.  A lot.  From my first post in this thread:

That was on July 23. How can I be expected to remember that?  ???  ;D

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Loz

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A note on suspension of disbelief, from ESPN's Gregg Easterbrook:

Quote
The latest Batman installment is a hit, and well-made from a cinematography standpoint, but the Joker character was unrealism carried to an extreme, even by Hollywood's low standards. The Joker has hundreds of obedient, superefficient henchmen, including surgeons and high-ranking police officers, who serve him without question -- even though they know he murders his own henchmen.

Arguable. We see a few policemen that he has the ability to manipulate, the rest are, as we see in the scene with Dent, Batman and the captured thug, apparently unstable psychotics who Bats says the Joker has chosen specifically because they will latch on to the first authority figure they see. The implication I took from cellphone-stomach guy was that the Joker had done it himself. I'm not sure it's ever made public knowledge or mob knowledge that the Joker can kill his lackeys and we only see it with the bank robbery guys from the start.

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The Joker knows things no one could possibly know, such as what street the police van carrying Harvey Dent will turn down during a wild chase. (He has henchmen positioned on that street, one of dozens the van might have turned down).

The drivers were told to stop for nobody and nothing, they didn't have time to stop and think 'hmmm, burning truck', yes, to us going underground is a dumb move but when you have split-decision to make a decision how likely are you to make a good one? There weren't 'dozens of choices', presumably his police force contacts fed him the main route and he worked from that. It's not something 'no one could possibly know'.

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The Joker can get poison into the police commissioner's private office without anyone suspecting anything.

This one is just silly really. Cleaning staff switch bottles perhaps, or one of the dirty cops is assigned to that detail or maybe it's switched at the point it's bought... Who knows?

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City officials make a sudden decision to load several hundred people into ferries; in just a few hours, Joker is able to place thousands of pounds of explosives aboard the ferries without anyone noticing, plus rig devices to take over the ferries' engines.

I did wonder about this one, not that he did it, but when he found the time to organise it. Even accepting that in the general chaos that he created that some of his hoods had the time to do things just so? I think that possibly from the time that the foreign financier guy was dropped off at G.C.P.D. and the Joker killed off the black gangster that he started having access to Mob money and connections and got them to do some of the leg work for him, but it's a stretch. I think the whole thing of trying to convince Harvey that he's just a crazy that reacts to events is < gasp! > a lie, and he's quote capable of sitting down and rationally planning how to do insane things.

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Joker is able to move thousands of pounds of explosives into Gotham General Hospital without anyone noticing. Positioning the explosives for the two giant-blast sequences in "The Dark Night" would have required large trucks and a front-loader carrying multiple heavy objects through places crawling with police officers without anyone noticing.

As above. Maybe much less explosive connected to the points in a hospital building that could be used to make a bigger explosion? Again, disguise his hoods as police/firemen storming into the evacuating hospital with 'equipment' to help evacuate it and they could position it for him. You still have the time problem but I don't think it's an impossible supposition.

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Joker always knows exactly where everyone he wants to kill is in a huge city (how?);

I don't understand this one. He targets people at their offices or places of residence, going after Harvey at A BIG FUNDRAISER for Harvey Dent isn't an example of telepathy.

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he's beaten to a pulp by Batman, yet just minutes later, easily overpowers a huge policeman;

Just as the Batman is able to escape the G.C.P.D. despite being on his last legs at the end of the film. Perhaps the Joker is crazy enough that he simply ignores the beating he gets from Batman? We don't know exactly what happens in the cell before we see him with the policeman as hostage.

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Joker steals from the mob, yet no mob soldier simply shoots him.

Pencil! Hand grenades! The black mob guy puts out the contract on the Joker and gets bumped off. The other gangsters then have the problem of what to do about their money and Dent. Maybe they decide to let him go after Dent and then kill him afterwards?

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Joker has a bomb sneaked into the jail where he's being held -- somehow he knew in advance what cell he would be in! -- and it blasts open the jail wall, plus kills all the police officers standing around the Joker, but does not hurt him.

The thing about which cell he would be in is irrelevant, he wasn't in a cell at the time. The cell the guy with the bomb in his gut is is also irrelevant, I presume that most police stations have only one block of cells? We also do not know that it kills the policemen around the Joker, if he knows what's coming and they don't, maybe he can brace himself for the blast they aren't expecting? Perhaps it throws them off balance long enough for him to kill them?


I'm not claiming that tDK is the bestest film in the history of everything and certainly there are times in the story when the Joker has to rely on 'movie luck' or The Scriptwriter to help him, but if you want a truly egregious example of that we could talk about the end of the last Harry Potter book and tDK is not THAT bad.



stePH

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Against my better judgment, I checked Arkham Asylum from my local library.  I just finished reading it.

Good god, what a piece of shit.  Well, the writing wasn't bad, but any hope of making a decent book was utterly destroyed by Dave McKean.  It might have been enjoyable in the hands of another artist, but McKean being Mckean it was nearly impossible to determine just what was supposed to be happening in the story.

Feh.

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DKT

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Finally saw this last night. Absolutely was blown away by it.

I did like Dent's use in this movie.  I thought Aaron Eckhart gave the character an amazing amount of depth and bravado that to see him brought to his knees was heart-breaking.  From punching the mobster who tried to shoot him on the stand to giving his I am Spartacus Batman speech.  I've always liked Two-Face as a character.  Before this movie, Two Face on celluloid was a ridiculous henchman to the Jim Carrey vaudeVillian, as disposable as the comics given out on Free Comic Book Day.  Here, he was given an arc.  And boy did it hurt.

(I was actually expecting Dent to somehow live and Joker to die.  I was pretty surprised they went the other route, but it worked out perfectly for me in the end.)

Heath Ledger.  Was that Heath Ledger?  Really?  If I didn't know better, I'm not sure I would believe it.

Christian Bale is great.  I loved the Batmen army and how that got to him.  I loved his doubt.

The supporting cast: Gary Oldman, Morgan Freeman, Michael Caine -- also very good.  I loved Jim Gordon in this movie.

I don't know if I'd call this the best movie ever.  I'm not sure there really is a definitive best movie ever.  But I do think Nolan raised the bar here, not only on his own franchise (which IMO already had one of the best made comic book movies) but with comic book movies in general. He deserves all kinds of awards for pulling this off, IMO.  I'm glad the studio is being patient about everything with him, and I'm really curious and excited to see where he can possibly go next. 

Now I need to hunt down the Long Halloween.  Never did read that one.  Also, maybe catch up with the current title and see what Grant Morrison's doing with it.


stePH

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Now I need to hunt down the Long Halloween.  Never did read that one.  Also, maybe catch up with the current title and see what Grant Morrison's doing with it.

The Long Halloween is made of awesome.  It's everything Arkham Asylum wasn't -- readable, for one example.

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DKT

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Now I need to hunt down the Long Halloween.  Never did read that one.  Also, maybe catch up with the current title and see what Grant Morrison's doing with it.

The Long Halloween is made of awesome.  It's everything Arkham Asylum wasn't -- readable, for one example.

Dude, you need to stay far away from anyting involved with Dave McKean  ;)


stePH

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Dude, you need to stay far away from anyting involved with Dave McKean  ;)

I already knew that, of course.  I did say that I checked out AA against my better judgment.

I'll still except things that he's polluted only minimally:  Sandman, Neverwhere and such.  And Mirrormask was tolerable.

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'Son of the Demon', the first story is a bit kludgy for me.  However, I have it on very good authority that the whole run coheres beautifully.  Definitely worth tracking down and if DC are even half sensible they'll be putting it out in cheap trades quickly.



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'Son of the Demon', the first story is a bit kludgy for me.  However, I have it on very good authority that the whole run coheres beautifully.  Definitely worth tracking down and if DC are even half sensible they'll be putting it out in cheap trades quickly.

Yeah, I've heard the first arc kind of misfires...but then Morrison returns to form after that.  I don't know if that means the first volume is necessary (or at all fun) to read, though. 

I think I'll start off by reading some of the other Batman TPBs I've got on my shelves.


Loz

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'Son of the Demon', the first story is a bit kludgy for me.  However, I have it on very good authority that the whole run coheres beautifully.  Definitely worth tracking down and if DC are even half sensible they'll be putting it out in cheap trades quickly.

Sadly both DC and Marvel now seem to think it's a great idea to put their comic collections out in harback first. I don't mind it as a prestige format for stuff that's already been out in paperback (I read Starman in trades from the library but am happy to buy the prestige hardbacks for my own collection) but this looks like trying to milk more money from the fans than have something that the more casual reader might feel inclined to pick up.

Luckily I'm downloading the few comics that I fancy reading but am not sure whether I'd buy, so I can wait for them to get round to putting out TPBs of the collections I want. The 'Return of Ra's Al Ghul' stuff can be ignored but the rest of Morrison's run is very interesting.



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Just got this through netflix.

It's a big steaming turd sandwich!





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I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
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Coming in late, but I would like to weigh in.

First off, I am not the biggest comic book geek in the world, but I did always love Batman. And while I did enjoy Batman Begins and The Dark Knight a goodly amount, the more I think about them the less I like them, because the more I consider the details, the less...Batman-y they seem.

One of the things I always enjoyed about the character of Batman was his self-made, obsessive nature. This idea that he spent his entire life transforming his mind and body into this crimefighting machine, and that he did it almost completely on his own, with help from a select few people. In Batman Begins, Bruce Wayne is a relatively normal human being until he's about 20 or so, where he runs off to Asia to find himself, then he comes back to town and makes friends with Morgan Freeman. Who just HAPPENS to have a spare super-suit lying around. It sort of detracts from the grandness of Batman, that larger-than-life thing he had going. I like the idea of Batman meticulously crafting this persona, hand-making every gadget and going over every clue. I don't really get that sense from the movies.

The Dark Knight was something of an improvement, though, because it managed to do something no previous movie - or even the 1990s animated series - managed to do: it made the Joker really, REALLY scary. The idea that he was just this pure sadist, causing chaos and destruction purely for the sake of it, really got under my skin. It's a real shame that Heath Ledger is no longer with us, though; that kind of performance can never be repeated. We'll never see the Joker again in another movie.

(and just to be completely petulant, it irks me that all of the main actors in these movies are British. Christian Bale, Gary Oldman, Cillian Murphy...well, I guess Heath Ledger's Australian, but stilll. I mean, Batman is perhaps the quintessentially American comic book character, and they couldn't find an American actor to play him? Harumph.)

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Loz

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Consider it revenge for 'Prince of Thieves' consisting entirely of Americans except for the baddy.  ;D