Author Topic: DIAF, Fox Mulder (A rant about science in science fiction)  (Read 7738 times)

bolddeceiver

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With the marketing around the new X-Files movie (and by the way, WTF?), I've been thinking about that series, and its assumptions, and that got me on to a general trend in SF that was, pretty much, the entire theme of The X-Files.

It's something that always vaguely bothered me in ways I ouldn't quite articulate even when I watched the show back in Jr. High, and now on further examination just seems so blatantly egrigious.  It comes down to the poster in Mulder's office (and the subtitle of the new movie):  "I Want To Believe."  Science fiction has its share of Mulders, and it also has its share of Scullies, the cold skeptic, always looking for the other explaination.

In most SF, the believer is right, and the skeptic is wrong.  This is understandable, because the elements that make it SF -- the aliens really are trying to talk to you, the time machine really does work, and so forth -- are usually pretty far-fetched.  I'm fine with this, because, let's face it, it's a lot of fun to play in a world where these things, however unlikely, are true.

However, what does bother me is the way the skeptic is so often played as the irrational one.  Sure, the believer turns out to be right, because that's what the story is about.  But in the majority of cases, the guy weilding Occham's razor is going to get it right over someone who "Wants to Believe."

Worst of all, in a lot of stories, the point where the skeptic does "see the light" involves some suspension of their skeptical disbelief, often through some pseudo-religious/mystical experience, rather than through the scientific elimination of alternate theories.  I know, I know, this makes for better drama.  But at what cost?  Can we constantly glorify sloppy thinking in our fiction without affecting our own rationality?

It's very strange to me how much "science fiction" contains this sort of egregious unscientific thinking right at its core.



wintermute

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Reply #1 on: July 25, 2008, 12:02:47 PM
I would add that most sceptics want to believe. Hell; I'd love it if there were aliens, bigfoots and angels running around out there. All we ask for a little evidence.

In The X Filess defence, Scully came to believe when she was actually presented with clear evidence of aliens (probably alien corpses, IIRC), and she remained sceptical about other matters.

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Talia

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Reply #2 on: July 25, 2008, 12:54:27 PM
.  I know, I know, this makes for better drama.  But at what cost?  Can we constantly glorify sloppy thinking in our fiction without affecting our own rationality?

I would think so, unless any given individual has lost the ability to distinguish between fact and fiction.

Drama/storytelling is what's always been of most interest to me personally in my choice of TV viewing/moviewatching/books whatever.



Alasdair5000

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Reply #3 on: July 25, 2008, 01:10:21 PM


Worst of all, in a lot of stories, the point where the skeptic does "see the light" involves some suspension of their skeptical disbelief, often through some pseudo-religious/mystical experience, rather than through the scientific elimination of alternate theories.  I know, I know, this makes for better drama.  But at what cost?  Can we constantly glorify sloppy thinking in our fiction without affecting our own rationality?


   I'd say pretty much, yes.  Also, Scully's actually a very interesting case because she was skeptical about rigidly defined things and the show was at it's worst when they kept having to Scooby Doo her into remaining skeptical (I'm a very well behaved cinema goer, but the bit at the end of the first movie where she passes out just as WORLD'S LARGEST UFO TM passes over head made me want to throw stuff at the screen).  What was fascinating about Scully was the idea that you can have this person who is incredibly smart, incredibly together, embraces scientific method and yet is also religious.  The episodes where she was forced to confront both that dichotomy and the possibility her faith was real (And at one point as I recall the series implied, very strongly, that God/the planet's spirit/whatever was, rather splendidly, Burt Reynolds) were some of the best ones as a result of that dichotomy and that combination of skepticism and faith.



Darwinist

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Reply #4 on: July 25, 2008, 01:20:29 PM
In most SF, the believer is right, and the skeptic is wrong.  <

Ah yes, but in our everyday reality the skeptic is always right and the believer is always wrong.  Right?  ;)

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


bolddeceiver

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Reply #5 on: July 25, 2008, 01:24:40 PM
In most SF, the believer is right, and the skeptic is wrong.  <

Ah yes, but in our everyday reality the skeptic is always right and the believer is always wrong.  Right?  ;)

Ninety-nine times in one hundred, and when the skeptic is (initially) wrong, it doesn't mean the believer was somehow smarter, just lucky... if you keep playing a number on the roulette wheel it'll come up, but the house is still winning.



wintermute

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Reply #6 on: July 25, 2008, 01:27:11 PM
In most SF, the believer is right, and the skeptic is wrong.  <

Ah yes, but in our everyday reality the skeptic is always right and the believer is always wrong.  Right?  ;)

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Reply #7 on: July 25, 2008, 03:36:21 PM
In most SF, the believer is right, and the skeptic is wrong. 

That's interesting.  Although I agree that this was certainly the case in the X-Files, I always thought that SF in general always curved more toward the, not skeptic, perhaps, but scientist.  And the believer was always the loon.  For me, that's one of the reasons I dug X-Files so much.  Fox Mulder felt very fresh to me. 

I've said it before somewhere, but depending on whether or not Greedo shot first, Fox Mulder is hands down my favorite character in SF.  I love that he's an incredibly intelligent guy who threw away a promising career and became an outcast because he had a mostly unshakeable belief in what he was doing, which was seeking the truth.

I suppose it's easy to say that there's a spiritual parallel there, and I'd probably be inclined to agree, but at the same time, I think it's something we're all after, figuring out the truth.  Some people just come at it from different angles, therefore we get Scully and Mulder. 

What was fascinating about Scully was the idea that you can have this person who is incredibly smart, incredibly together, embraces scientific method and yet is also religious.  The episodes where she was forced to confront both that dichotomy and the possibility her faith was real (And at one point as I recall the series implied, very strongly, that God/the planet's spirit/whatever was, rather splendidly, Burt Reynolds) were some of the best ones as a result of that dichotomy and that combination of skepticism and faith.


Agreed.  I quickly became a fan of that twist and thought it was a nice foil to Mulder's.  I remember one episode where they were exploring some religious phenomena concerning a child (can't remember the title, sorry), and Mulder said something to Scully like "This is why I always sleep in on Sundays."  I thought the dichotomoy of beliefs was very interesting.


errant371

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Reply #8 on: July 25, 2008, 04:38:39 PM
It's very strange to me how much "science fiction" contains this sort of egregious unscientific thinking right at its core.

You  must be reading the wrong kind of science fiction if you find that this is the case.  What authors are you reading?  Might I offer som suggestions?  Brin, Benford, Robinson, McDevitt to start.  You do raise some interesting questions though.  For my part, I never really considered the X-Files to be science fiction (and I loved the show).

I do object to Occam's Razor though.  Far too many people use that principal far too often to too little effect.  Occam's Razor is a great rule of thumb, but it can be incorrect, and often does not address specific phenomena.  Take something like origin of the universe.  Which is a simpler explanation: A) God did it, or B) rediculously convoluted, complex, competing, arcane theories that people can barely understand even when put into layman's terms.  Just because an explanation is simpler does not mean it is correct.

(not saying that a god created the universe, btw)

What part of 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn' didn't you understand?


wintermute

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Reply #9 on: July 25, 2008, 04:49:10 PM
Which is a simpler explanation: A) God did it, or B) rediculously convoluted, complex, competing, arcane theories that people can barely understand even when put into layman's terms.  Just because an explanation is simpler does not mean it is correct.

Ockham's Razor does not state that the simpler explanation is more likely to be correct; it states that the explanation that requires fewer additional, currently unexplained entities is more likely to be correct. "Goddidit" fails the Ockham's Razor test because it requires everything that are required for naturalistic explanations plus a magic, omnipotent, eternal entity which isn't subject to natural law.

Besides, "Goddidit" fails to even be a potential explanation for the origin of the universe (so Ockham's Razor doesn't need to be applied) because it makes no attempt to explain how Goddidit. It's akin to "explaining" the invention of the computer by saying "Turing did it".

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Swamp

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Reply #10 on: July 25, 2008, 05:55:46 PM
"Goddidit" fails the Ockham's Razor test because it requires everything that are required for naturalistic explanations plus a magic, omnipotent, eternal entity which isn't subject to natural law.

*In my opinion, God is subject to natural laws.  He just understands them far beyond our comprehension.

*By making this comment, I know I run the risk of turning this thread into a God vs. Science debate.  I really, really don't want that to happen.  I just saw that statement and had a thought to share.  I am enjoying the conversation and wouldn't want to derail it.

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errant371

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Reply #11 on: July 25, 2008, 06:01:23 PM
Which is a simpler explanation: A) God did it, or B) rediculously convoluted, complex, competing, arcane theories that people can barely understand even when put into layman's terms.  Just because an explanation is simpler does not mean it is correct.

Ockham's Razor does not state that the simpler explanation is more likely to be correct; it states that the explanation that requires fewer additional, currently unexplained entities is more likely to be correct. "Goddidit" fails the Ockham's Razor test because it requires everything that are required for naturalistic explanations plus a magic, omnipotent, eternal entity which isn't subject to natural law.

Besides, "Goddidit" fails to even be a potential explanation for the origin of the universe (so Ockham's Razor doesn't need to be applied) because it makes no attempt to explain how Goddidit. It's akin to "explaining" the invention of the computer by saying "Turing did it".

Fair enough, but even then the principal of Occam's Razor is abused by just about everyone.  "is more likely to be correct" is never qualified.  It is almost always "is correct".  All I am saying is that every time I see someone trot out this tired cliche as some immutable law, I shudder.  It is tiresome.

Besides, Turing did do it. ;)

What part of 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn' didn't you understand?


wintermute

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Reply #12 on: July 25, 2008, 06:03:46 PM
Besides, Turing did do it. ;)
If you ignore Babbage, sure.

;)

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errant371

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Reply #13 on: July 25, 2008, 06:15:00 PM
Besides, Turing did do it. ;)
If you ignore Babbage, sure.

;)

Speaking of Babbage; weird bit of literature trivia.  His assistant, a gifted mathmetician, was Ada Gordon, the daughter of George Gordon, Lord Byron.  It is fairly certain she was responsible to at least some of the mathmatical pricipals behind the Difference Engine.

What part of 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn' didn't you understand?


wintermute

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Reply #14 on: July 25, 2008, 06:30:02 PM
She also wrote what was basically the only programming textbook to exist for about a century.

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Alasdair5000

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Reply #15 on: July 25, 2008, 08:38:15 PM

I've said it before somewhere, but depending on whether or not Greedo shot first, Fox Mulder is hands down my favorite character in SF.  I love that he's an incredibly intelligent guy who threw away a promising career and became an outcast because he had a mostly unshakeable belief in what he was doing, which was seeking the truth.
   Weirdly, WALL-E reminds me of Mulder a little.  At the core, there's the same realisation that they're smarter, or at least different, to the average bear and the occasional need to have a little fun with other people as a result.

I suppose it's easy to say that there's a spiritual parallel there, and I'd probably be inclined to agree, but at the same time, I think it's something we're all after, figuring out the truth.  Some people just come at it from different angles, therefore we get Scully and Mulder.
   There's also the fact that Mulder comes at this from a very obsessive point of view that he's prepared to embrace everything because something has to lead him back to Samantha.  It's a choice born out of desperation as much as anything else.


What was fascinating about Scully was the idea that you can have this person who is incredibly smart, incredibly together, embraces scientific method and yet is also religious.  The episodes where she was forced to confront both that dichotomy and the possibility her faith was real (And at one point as I recall the series implied, very strongly, that God/the planet's spirit/whatever was, rather splendidly, Burt Reynolds) were some of the best ones as a result of that dichotomy and that combination of skepticism and faith.

Agreed.  I quickly became a fan of that twist and thought it was a nice foil to Mulder's.  I remember one episode where they were exploring some religious phenomena concerning a child (can't remember the title, sorry), and Mulder said something to Scully like "This is why I always sleep in on Sundays."  I thought the dichotomoy of beliefs was very interesting.

   
   Absolutely especially as Scully's belief, if anything, was played as the one less grounded in reality.  When the show worked, it did the same thing the original Stargate movie did, split the human personality into the scientific and the spiritual (Or the scientific and the physical in Stargate's case) and had a central partnership which was, effectively, one functional character in two character's bodies.

   And arguably one of the series' finest moments, and it's at the crux of this as well, is in the pilot.  Right after they experience lost time and Mulder is just over joyed, hooting and yelling to an unsettling degree whilst Scully's trying to figure out.  Two reactions meaningless on their own but together, something greater than the whole.

...

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bolddeceiver

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Reply #16 on: July 26, 2008, 12:15:04 AM

I do object to Occam's Razor though.  Far too many people use that principal far too often to too little effect.  Occam's Razor is a great rule of thumb, but it can be incorrect, and often does not address specific phenomena.  Take something like origin of the universe.  Which is a simpler explanation: A) God did it, or B) rediculously convoluted, complex, competing, arcane theories that people can barely understand even when put into layman's terms.  Just because an explanation is simpler does not mean it is correct.

(not saying that a god created the universe, btw)

Besides what's already been said, I think a lot of people misunderstand the razor.  Occham's razor doesn't say the simplest theory is right; it says to consider the simplest theory first.  The real value of Occham's razor to a true scientist is falsifiability:  You start with a simpler theory, because that's the one you can most easily prove or dispose of.  From this perspective of verifiability, it's clear that "God did it" is nowhere near the "simplest" theory...



Loz

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Reply #17 on: August 03, 2008, 09:23:30 PM
There's also the fact that Fox Mulder is a dick.  ;D