Author Topic: Intros  (Read 14946 times)

csrster

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on: August 06, 2008, 07:39:05 AM
Am I the only one who thinks that the intros to Podcastle stories are generally way too long? In fact they're
often so off-putting that I find myself skipping ahead to a different podcast just to avoid them, which
is a shame. I much prefer Pseudopod's practice of keeping all the non-essential information for the
outro, and I notice that EscapePod has also recently shortened its intros.

I should emphasise this isn't a personal criticism of the presenters or of what they have to say. It's just that
I come to podcastle primarily for the stories so I think it makes sense to give us the basic "hello and
welcome and here is story X by writer Y" first and leave all the other stuff for the end. This would have the additional
bonus of allowing the presenter to say something intelligent about the story we have just heard without having to
worry about spoilers.

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stePH

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Reply #1 on: August 06, 2008, 01:18:14 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that the intros to Podcastle stories are generally way too long?

No.  And I vaguely dislike the pre-story infodumps as well.

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Stinkywife

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Reply #2 on: August 08, 2008, 06:07:29 PM
I would have to agree, and I am happy that I am not the only one that feels this way.

The intros often ruin the story for me, because there is too much background info about the subject matter beforehand. Please leave this for the end of the podcast instead of spoiling content.  Also, a web address for the author/narrator would suffice. If I am interested in their other work/favorite color/name of their cat, I can do the research myself. Finally, I don't really enjoy hearing about all the personal details of Rachel's life. It works for Steve Eley. I just find myself getting annoyed when Rachel does it.

I would enjoy Podcastle more if it followed the same format as Pseudopod. I often find myself wanting to hear what Alasdair has to say at the end of the story. I am able to listen to the story and form my own opinions before being inundated by a bunch of background information...



Swamp

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Reply #3 on: August 08, 2008, 08:53:12 PM
I seem to be making a habit of defending the editors at PodCastle, but honestly they get dumped on no matter what they do.  Several people were calling for more personal intros a while ago, and now that they are adding personal flavor, people are belting them for that.

Finally, I don't really enjoy hearing about all the personal details of Rachel's life. It works for Steve Eley. I just find myself getting annoyed when Rachel does it.

I'm all for being honest, but that's plain rude.

Making the intro an outro may be a legitimate suggestion, but this comes across as a personal issue.  Feedback, suggestions, and even criticism is good for a podcast/magazine, but only if it is constructive.

For myself, I think the intros have been good, related to the story but not too revealing or spoiler-filled.  I wouldn't mind if they became outros, either.  Whatever Rachel and Ann decide works for me, as long as I find the fantasy entertaining, and so far I have, overall.

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Reply #4 on: August 08, 2008, 09:13:06 PM
I seem to be making a habit of defending the editors at PodCastle, but honestly they get dumped on no matter what they do.  Several people were calling for more personal intros a while ago, and now that they are adding personal flavor, people are belting them for that.

Finally, I don't really enjoy hearing about all the personal details of Rachel's life. It works for Steve Eley. I just find myself getting annoyed when Rachel does it.

I'm all for being honest, but that's plain rude.

Making the intro an outro may be a legitimate suggestion, but this comes across as a personal issue.  Feedback, suggestions, and even criticism is good for a podcast/magazine, but only if it is constructive.

For myself, I think the intros have been good, related to the story but not too revealing or spoiler-filled.  I wouldn't mind if they became outros, either.  Whatever Rachel and Ann decide works for me, as long as I find the fantasy entertaining, and so far I have, overall.

Seriously.  I feel like people are getting way too harsh comparing Podcastle to Escape Pod, and Rachel and Ann to Steve. 

Somehow Pseudopod seemed to eek by, I'm not sure if it was because horror just doesn't have as broad an audience as SF/F, but people never complained about every little minute detail (well not to this degree, mostly about whether or not a story was "horror").  Why were/are people so willing to give Mur, Ben, and later Al, so much slack?  They still get complaints, I guess, but it's nothing like this, and PP has really hit its stride formatwise. 

I'm all for constructive criticism, but lay off them already.  They're still figuring this all out, but thus far, I think they've done a hell of a job.


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Reply #5 on: August 08, 2008, 09:35:07 PM
Sorry, I don't really see how that was being rude. I listen to the podcast because I want to hear a story, not because I want to listen to personal anecdotes or have a story spoiled for me by giving out too much background info. Furthermore, every person that I have recommended this podcast to, feels the same way. My husband won't even listen to Podcastle anymore because of this. Rachel may be great as an editor, but I do not enjoy her as a host. I have reserved my opinion until now to see if I could warm up to it, but after listening to this week's podcast, I felt the need to comment.

I was under the impression that this section of the forums was for suggestions, feedback, and criticism (as it states in the description). Please direct me to the part where it says you are only allowed to express an opinion if it is constructive.



Swamp

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Reply #6 on: August 08, 2008, 10:33:38 PM
I was under the impression that this section of the forums was for suggestions, feedback, and criticism (as it states in the description). Please direct me to the part where it says you are only allowed to express an opinion if it is constructive.

I suppose I have been spoiled by the general common courtesy on this forum.

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« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 11:39:16 PM by Swamp »

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Heradel

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Reply #7 on: August 08, 2008, 10:36:20 PM
Let's keep it civil folks.


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Reply #8 on: August 08, 2008, 11:20:44 PM
Seriously.  I feel like people are getting way too harsh comparing Podcastle to Escape Pod, and Rachel and Ann to Steve. 

I suspect part of why the personal asides aren't as well-received as on Escape Pod, is because the host of EP is and has always been Steve Eley, while PC has rotating hosts and thusly it's not as easy to get to know them as when it's the same person week after week.  (Isn't there at least one other host besides Rachel and Ann?  I thought there was at least one more.)

I personally have no opinion on any personal anecdotes Rachel or Ann might share, and I'm not expecting either of them to try to be like Steve.  I just vaguely dislike the pre-story infodumps, as I mentioned above.

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Swamp

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Reply #9 on: August 08, 2008, 11:36:49 PM
Let's keep it civil folks.

You're right.  I am being a hypocrite by being sarcastic.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 11:40:02 PM by Swamp »

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Reply #10 on: August 09, 2008, 12:22:11 AM
I was under the impression that this section of the forums was for suggestions, feedback, and criticism (as it states in the description). Please direct me to the part where it says you are only allowed to express an opinion if it is constructive.

The rule is, no personal insults.  By all means, be critical of structure and content.  But don't make it personal.  What you're saying and the way you made it directly about Rachel doesn't quite go there, but it toes close enough to the line to raise a few eyebrows. 

I'm not suggesting you had hostile intent.  When the content itself is personal, the line can be fuzzy, and we all might see it in different places.  My own feeling is that in such cases it's better to err conservatively, but I don't have perfect answers myself on how to do that in every case.

As Heradel said, let's keep it civil.  I do know that everyone working on the podcasts appreciates reactions and suggestions on how to improve.

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csrster

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Reply #11 on: August 11, 2008, 06:57:50 AM
I hope I made a good effort to make start this discussion thread constructively and I appreciate those who are trying to keep things that way. I think this week's episode (No. 19 Galatea) is a good example of the problem. Rachel used the intro to describe her own experience of alienation in a new environment and to relate it to the story. All that does is colour a story we haven't yet heard with someone else's personal interpretation of it. I would have thought it was something of a no-brainer to see that the natural place for that kind of discussion is after the story.



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Reply #12 on: August 11, 2008, 09:42:55 AM
I hope I made a good effort to make start this discussion thread constructively and I appreciate those who are trying to keep things that way. I think this week's episode (No. 19 Galatea) is a good example of the problem. Rachel used the intro to describe her own experience of alienation in a new environment and to relate it to the story. All that does is colour a story we haven't yet heard with someone else's personal interpretation of it. I would have thought it was something of a no-brainer to see that the natural place for that kind of discussion is after the story.

I agree. While I think the intros are far better than the early ones in terms of balance, there is still a tone of over-eagerness to share in the intros. The thing about Steve's personal revelations, back when he did them, is that they were rarely pertinant to the story, which - perhaps paradoxically - made them interesting. They let me know more about the man behind EP without tainting my listening experience. PC, I think, has not quite found that balance yet. But for me, at least, the intros have gone from a major annoyance to something I am comfortable with even though I can see some issues.



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Reply #13 on: August 13, 2008, 04:17:00 PM
I like the way Ann and Rachel have shifted the focus of Podcastle intros since the "Pahwahke" incident.  However, I've noticed they're getting longer and longer.  The intro on "Cup and Table" was WAY too long.  Interesting, but too long.  I kind of saw where it was going about 3/4 of the way through, and it was nice to hear how Ann (it was Ann, right?) came to enjoy Arthurian fantasy and non-fiction.  But seriously... I was wondering where the story was.

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Reply #14 on: August 13, 2008, 09:00:02 PM
The longer intro this week isn't part of a trend.  It's what happens when I get to talking on that particular topic.

In fact, Steve saved you from the actual, full intro by cutting what I'd recorded down to manageable size--and even that was the result of me firmly putting the brakes on.  I could, with no pause for research, spew out information on the history of the Arthurian Legends for far, far longer than I did.

I'm basically a sort of pedantic nerd--surprise, I'm sure that hasn't come through in my intros! ;)  And this topic is one I've read a lot about.  <shrug>  So there you go.



Rain

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Reply #15 on: August 14, 2008, 06:18:00 PM
I must admit i got kinda lost halfway through the latest intro, Ann sounded really enthusiastic about the subject but it was maybe a little too in debt for an intro, in general i think the introes could improve but maybe talking a little slower or just take a moment to breathe :)

I do have to agree with some of the criticism, it feels as if the introes little by little have become more spoiler filled, it has been especially bad the last few episodes. It is not a huge problem but i thought it was worth noting



hautdesert

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Reply #16 on: August 14, 2008, 07:18:45 PM
I do have to agree with some of the criticism, it feels as if the introes little by little have become more spoiler filled, it has been especially bad the last few episodes. It is not a huge problem but i thought it was worth noting

I have to admit, I don't really understand what you mean by "spoiler filled" here.  Looking over the last few episodes, I don't see any spoilers at all in the intros.  Goblin Lullaby's intro just talked about lullabyes, which are already in the title.  lluminated dragon--a bit about illuminated manuscripts that's pretty tangential to the plot.  I don't see the presence of illuminations in the story as being something that's spoilerable.  For Galatea, Rachel summarized the myth and talked about adjusting to the city--the author wants the reader/listener to be thinking of the myth, or she wouldn't have used it as the title, and the themes mentioned in the intro are all pretty much there in the first few paragraphs of the story.  And for Cup and Table, we know a couple sentences in that we're talking about the Holy Grail.

Are we working from different definitions of "spoiler"?  A spoiler, to my mind, is something like, "The butler did it!" or "Fred dies!" (assuming Fred is not, say, fatally ill at the start of the story).  Not "this story deals with the theme of public transportation as a path to spiritual perfection" or "this story references this obscure legend, and knowing it will make it make more sense."



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Reply #17 on: August 14, 2008, 07:36:52 PM
I do have to agree with some of the criticism, it feels as if the introes little by little have become more spoiler filled, it has been especially bad the last few episodes. It is not a huge problem but i thought it was worth noting

I have to admit, I don't really understand what you mean by "spoiler filled" here.  Looking over the last few episodes, I don't see any spoilers at all in the intros. 

I agree.  Since Pahwahke, there haven't been any spoiler-like comments, overt or subtle.  My issue was more with length.

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eytanz

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Reply #18 on: August 14, 2008, 07:47:22 PM
I do have to agree with some of the criticism, it feels as if the introes little by little have become more spoiler filled, it has been especially bad the last few episodes. It is not a huge problem but i thought it was worth noting

I have to admit, I don't really understand what you mean by "spoiler filled" here. 

...

lluminated dragon--a bit about illuminated manuscripts that's pretty tangential to the plot.  I don't see the presence of illuminations in the story as being something that's spoilerable. 

Well, technically, someone may have started listening to the story thinking it's about a dragon that is well-lit.  ;)

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For Galatea, Rachel summarized the myth and talked about adjusting to the city--the author wants the reader/listener to be thinking of the myth, or she wouldn't have used it as the title, and the themes mentioned in the intro are all pretty much there in the first few paragraphs of the story.  And for Cup and Table, we know a couple sentences in that we're talking about the Holy Grail.

These two are somewhat different, I think. You clearly have an extensive education in classical and medieval mythology. You can't hear the titles without being aware of the background. Someone who is entirely ignorant of the legends, though, may find a lot of the plot points novel. By explaining the myth, you could be affecting the reading experience of a sizable proportion of the listeners.

Just to clarify - I'm with Listener here. I think the content of the intros isn't problematic these days. Sometimes they are a bit on the rambling side, though.



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Reply #19 on: August 14, 2008, 09:41:38 PM
By explaining the myth, you could be affecting the reading experience of a sizable proportion of the listeners.

Very good point.  And I'd say that whenever I, myself would do that (I can't speak for Rachel, or anyone else who might host), that's exactly what I intend.

I was thinking about this question as I was driving to pick my son up from soccer.  I think that maybe some people approach stories as...puzzles?  Where you try to "figure out" what it means.  In which case, having someone tell you about Astarte, or Galatea, or whatever, is a kind of cheating and makes your experience of the story somehow "less fun" than it would be if you'd figured it out yourself.

That's the only model under which I can see preferring not to be told, say, the myth of Galatea up front, for a story that references it.

But I don't think stories are puzzles.  Well, okay, some are.  Allegories are--real allegories, I mean, not just stories you can force allegorical meanings on to.  (As an example, The Wizard of Oz is not an allegory, but if you google, you can find a fairly complex allegorical breakdown of it.  It's not a product of the text, but of human pattern-making tendencies.)  Some surprise-ending short-shorts are.  Murder mysteries are.

But most stories aren't.  You don't "solve" a story.  Stories don't, by and large, have a correct answer.

Stories are more like music.  Let's say you go down to the symphony hall to hear...oh, Schubert's Fifth Symphony.  And there's a talk beforehand.  Someone explains that the first movement is in sonata form, and explains how that works, and plays the first and second themes on the piano.  She tells you that the first theme will be in the main key of the piece (in this case B flat major) and the second will be in a different key entirely--in this case, a fifth away from B flat, so F, but sometimes in other first movements (first movements of symphonies are always in sonata form) it might be the relative minor. Since she plays them right there for you, you can hear how they sound different, in different keys.  She explains that the whole middle of the piece will be variations of those two themes in all sorts of keys, so you should listen for that.  And then finally the movement will end with the two main themes restated plainly, but this time both in a nice, satisfying B flat major.

Now, you could have listened to the movement without knowing that, and it would have been very nice.  It's a lovely, charming piece, I recommend it.  But knowing what you're listening for, it's even nicer.  Knowing all that, yes, it does change your experience of listening to the piece--for the better.

When a writer references a myth, or another writer's work, or whatever, she doesn't generally do it as a clue to a mystery that you're supposed to figure out.  She does it so that it will resonate while you're reading.  Those things are there to tell you right up front, "you should be thinking of this."  Especially if it's in the title, or the opening paragraphs, or the name of a major character.  It's like Schubert stating those two themes, plain as day, in the opening to the first movement, and then repeating them exactly.  "Look, this is what you need to listen to if you want to understand the rest of the movement!  Got it?  Okay, here we go."

Sometimes the piece is, say, atonal.   If you're not used to it, it's hard to hear the themes as melodies, let alone understand their variations. (metaphor, straining but still holding....) So the lady before the concert, playing them a few times on the piano, talking about them--it makes your listening experience make more sense, makes it less frustrating. 

That's why, when I see a reference like that, right up in the title, say, or really obviously there, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people won't get it, I'm going to mention it.  Yes, it will alter the experience, that's exactly why I want to do it.

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Sometimes they are a bit on the rambling side

 :o Me?  Ramble???  ;)

Seriously--it's a fair cop.



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Reply #20 on: August 14, 2008, 09:46:19 PM
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Sometimes they are a bit on the rambling side

 :o Me?  Ramble???  ;)

Seriously--it's a fair cop.


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You just proved your point.  ;D

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slic

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Reply #21 on: August 17, 2008, 11:16:57 PM
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But knowing what you're listening for, it's even nicer.
So my feelings are that when you do that at the beginning of the story, it's sort of like explaining a joke before telling it - "so then this part will be really funny because..."  It means nothing to me since I haven't heard the joke yet, and when someone actually starts telling it, I either forget what they say or get distracted from the story trying to remember/relate the reference mentioned before.

I do love hearing about the depth of a story.  But using your music analogy, I don't go to the music hall and expect "a talk beforehand". In fact, as an experience listener of classical music it would annoy me.  If the music intrigues me/pleases me then I try to follow up and learn something more about it (say for example how Rachmaninov's Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini led me to Niccolò Paganini's Caprices for solo violin).  If the talk was after (say in an outro  ;)), it'd be even better since I don't have to go looking for it  ;D. And then if really intrigued, I could play the story again, being familiar with the piece and more able to get the "reference". 

I have lent alot of books (novels and comics) to people and have found that it is much better for everyone that I wait until they go through it once before talking them up about it.

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That's why, when I see a reference like that, right up in the title, say, or really obviously there, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people won't get it, I'm going to mention it.  Yes, it will alter the experience, that's exactly why I want to do it.
Using Galetea as the example, I can see your point, but I disagree.  I did know who Galetea was, and thought Rachael gave a good explanation of the myth (sufficient and brief).  I did find it interesting when she told us about her health issues, but I really think it would have been much better as an outro.  While it really gave me insight to how some people would connect to the story (which I liked), I felt it interfered with the momentum the author was building as the story started.  Also keep in mind that the author isn't expecting an introducer - it can throw off the balance of the story.   Having said all I didn't much like the story, and that had nothing to do with the intro. 

So far I have enjoyed the content of the intros on Podcastle, it's just where they appear ;)



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Reply #22 on: August 23, 2008, 06:19:42 PM
But knowing what you're listening for, it's even nicer.  Knowing all that, yes, it does change your experience of listening to the piece--for the better.

I respectfully disagree that either option of placing the information before or after is "better" than the other. It's an editorial decision, after all. It is clear that it was carefully considered, and it's clear to me the decision has a firm intellectual/rational basis.

Reading the discussion, it appears that some posters are somehow convinced there is a right answer when it's all a matter of opinion.

For me, personally, I like the extra information at the end. I find that it is precisely because I am familiar with a piece that I am interested in learning more about it - not the other way around. After hearing an intro, I find myself a little "spoiled" to the story.

For example, I kind of guessed that Galatea would have something to do with an artificial construct in the form of a woman. But, the title said nothing to me about themes of city vs. country, alienation vs. belonging, or, for that matter, disembodiment.

This is classical dilemma of education psychology, and there is plenty of support for both positions, so it seems those who want the intros as extros will just have to learn how to FF and listen to them after the story.