Author Topic: Stephenie Meyers’ Twilight Saga and Vampirism as a metaphor for sex  (Read 40028 times)

Rachel Swirsky

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I think it's "ladies for babies, sluts for pleasure." Historically, there's been a class of ladies who stay pure, and a class of ladies who have no virtue.

I also think part of the problem with "do people want true love?" question is simple framing. True love is, as an idea, a good thing. Do you want true love? Yes. Now, ask women who are old enough to have gotten a bit jaded about the virgin/whore dichotomy, "Do you want to have fun sex with people?" And that's another good thing. Yes.

Why yes, I do want an ice cream sundae. Chocolate cake would also be nice. My willingness to say yes to one doesn't mean I wouldn't also say yes to the idea of the other. Or that, in the end, I won't actually sit down and eat a lean cuisine instead of either one because it's what's in the house.

Also, I think for a lot of young people, true love is something nice they'd like in the future. Sounds good, let's do that, also I plan to have three children and a mortgage on a nice, but not too expensive, house in the suburbs. Meanwhile, yes, handsome -- I would like a drink.



DKT

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I am Legend (2007): A male zombie is fighting to get its One True Love back from Dr. Neville.

Huh. I totally missed that part  ;D


wintermute

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I am Legend (2007): A male zombie is fighting to get its One True Love back from Dr. Neville.

Huh. I totally missed that part  ;D
It helps if you watch the original too-controversial-for-theatres ending, where it's made a lot more explicit.

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Ocicat

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Rachel, thanks for laying down the pro-polyamory argument there.  It is indeed a false dichotomy.  Speaking as the forums (other) polyamorist, you don't have to choose.  I've got three ridiculously beautiful girlfriends, so in some ways I'm living the James Bond dream.  But that doesn't mean I don't care about Love or Commitment.  These things are actually more important than the sex.  That's why they call it polyamory - many loves. 

But back to the actual topic, I do like some "chick flicks" and romance based stories.  So long as there is enough else there as well.  I'm big into costume drama, or old Audrey Hepburn movies.  Thought that Pride and Prejudice was a fantastic book.

But "we're so in luuuve" just isn't interesting unless there's strong characters, and some reason for me to care.  Being in love is great to experience, less fun to read about.  Kind of like how being shot at is great fun to read about, but less fun to have happen to you.



eytanz

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2.  Does that preclude them from being interested in stories involving "true love" (which I still think is far from an accurate representation of the first book, at the very least)?

Then why aren't movies and books about true love more popular with guys?


That's a valid question, but note also that stereotypical guys like horror movies. Does that mean that guys want to be ripped apart to shreds with a chainsaw?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 05:00:31 PM by eytanz »



hautdesert

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A big chunk of this is socialisation; society tells girls that they're supposed to stay "pure" and "save themselves" until they find "the one", and boys are told that "boys will be boys" and that they have to "sow their wild oats. Without this, make and female attitudes to sex are far more similar than you seem to think. Stephanie Meyers and James Bond are causes as much as they're symptoms.

Amen, and hallelujah!

As for why guys don't like romance movies/stories--I wouldn't want to swear they don't.  Sure, a lot of guys say they don't.  But when you know that saying you do might make you look...you know, girly!...well, you don't.  You might even avoid even watching them or reading them because you know you're not supposed to like them.

Or at least, the ones that are labeled as such.  Wintermute's list is hardly exhaustive.  It could go for pages, if one were so inclined.  It seems pretty clear to me that men have no problem with True Love and romance, as long as it's not actually labeled that way.  I don't think romantic fantasies differ too much between men and women.  They're probably more different from one person to another, regardless of gender, than they are between men and women as a group.

(There's also confirmation bias to deal with.  We all know women like romance and men don't!  So if you meet a man who likes romance, obviously he's an exception.  You could walk down the street and meet a dozen exceptions, and never realize that they're not actually exceptions.)







stePH

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The last male writer who wrote something like this (that springs to my mind) is Shakespeare.
Let's have a look at some popular movies that were written by men for men:

Add to that list Spawn, the comic books, the animated series, and the movie.  Al Simmons agrees to serve the devil Malebolgia because all he wants is to return to Earth and see his wife Wanda again.

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alllie

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Add to that list Spawn, the comic books, the animated series, and the movie.  Al Simmons agrees to serve the devil Malebolgia because all he wants is to return to Earth and see his wife Wanda again.

The Devil Clown in Spawn. I've always felt he was modeled on Cheney, but less evil. John Leguizamo did a great job with him.

But really, Spawn? Maybe Al was motivated by love but Spawn is about gore and violence and that wonderful red cloak.

Could that be the difference? At least for some men. Many women like to wallow in the love thing but men, maybe they do like it in movies and books as a motivator but they don't like the wallowing.

Princess Bride is mentioned as a love story by a man that men like. But Princess Bride is about the action. The closest Westley comes to declaring his love is saying "As you wish."



stePH

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Add to that list Spawn, the comic books, the animated series, and the movie.  Al Simmons agrees to serve the devil Malebolgia because all he wants is to return to Earth and see his wife Wanda again.

The Devil Clown in Spawn. I've always felt he was modeled on Cheney, but less evil. John Leguizamo did a great job with him.

But really, Spawn? Maybe Al was motivated by love but Spawn is about gore and violence and that wonderful red cloak.

Love for one particular woman is at least as much a part of Spawn as it is in wintermute's examples of Die Hard, Flash Gordon and Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure.

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slic

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My argument is that it's the time spent on the topic rather than it being the motivator. 

Sure, a key plot point of Die Hard is that John is trying to save his marriage - but that's really only there to give him a reason for being at the party(it’s the writers’ way of showing John is a “good” man - there are thousands of other ways this could have been setup).  The movie is pretty much all action once it gets rolling - there are no long soliloquies where John professes his undying love for his wife.

The interest (or lack thereof) in "romance novels" comes, I think, more from “men don’t talk about their feelings” – why or where this comes from is another discussion.  It is not that we don’t have the feelings, it’s that we don’t spend a whole lot of time going on about them.

Spawn is absolutely about Al’s love for his wife.  It’s why Malebolgia can use Wanda to torture him, and why he commits some atrocious acts.  But obviously the book spends a great deal of time making gore, and not alot talking about love.



deflective

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Many women like to wallow in the love thing but men ... they don't like the wallowing.

this seems true in most cases.

books that do nothing but wallow (your typical harlequin) is pretty much emotional pornography and, in excess, may create all the typical problems. unrealistic expectations, resentment, isolation, that kind of thing.

there are men's movies based around monogamy, romantic comedies in particular: there's something about Mary, 40 year old virgin. if the story's more serious then an us-against-the-world scenario is popular. Heinlein's stories come to mind.


just one man's view.



Rachel Swirsky

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"is pretty much emotional pornography"

Eh, it's pretty much just pornography pornography, IMO. Certainly a lot of women use it that way. It has enough trappings of femininity for women to use it without risking social disapproval -- see, it's about love and monogamy! -- but really, it's all about teh h0t sexxx.



stePH

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"is pretty much emotional pornography"

Eh, it's pretty much just pornography pornography, IMO. Certainly a lot of women use it that way. It has enough trappings of femininity for women to use it without risking social disapproval -- see, it's about love and monogamy! -- but really, it's all about teh h0t sexxx.

The one or two books in the genre that I've read about fifteen or twenty years ago seem to bear this out.

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hautdesert

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The interest (or lack thereof) in "romance novels" comes, I think, more from “men don’t talk about their feelings” – why or where this comes from is another discussion.  It is not that we don’t have the feelings, it’s that we don’t spend a whole lot of time going on about them.

It's widely assumed that women just talk more than men.  In fact, women and men talk pretty much exactly the same amount.

I know that's not the same as "talk about their feelings."  But I'm willing to bet that, once the words and topics are all counted, talking about feelings will come out even, too.  Women don't actually spend that much time "going on" about their feelings, to be honest.

And yeah, category Romance novels are, in fact, straight out porn (or erotica if you prefer) and read and used that way by much of their target audience.  It's just not called that, because nice girls don't.

I'd also submit that if you're a person whose livelihood and future depends on selecting, gaining, and keeping a mate, the flat out "finds true love" plot (I mean, with not a lot of other stuff in it) becomes intrinsically enthralling, the stakes just as high as, say, Die Hard.  It's true not as many women are in that situation these days, but some are, and I've met women who think they are, for cultural reasons. 

Really, I doubt very much that "wallowing" has anything to do with it.  Except for the sex scenes.  But I don't think women are alone in wallowing in those. ;)



alllie

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I’ve been thinking about how inspiring Stephenie Meyer is but, not so much for what is in her books, as the fact of their existence. On June 2, 2003 she had a dream about a vampire and a girl in a meadow. She didn’t want to forget it so she sat down at her computer and wrote it out. And kept writing. By November 2005 her book had been published and since then she has published an additional four books. All of them have been best sellers, and at number one for a while. Right now the paperback Twilight is at number one on the USAToday’s Best Seller’s List, four of her books are within the top 5 positions and her book The Host has fallen to 24 (Number 6 on the NY Times Best Seller’s List for Hardcover fiction). Before she started Twilight Meyer hadn’t written anything in 6 years and all she had written previously was a couple of chapters of things she never finished.

She writes and publishes 5 best selling books in 7 years and I’ve been working on the same short story for 2 years! Acckk! But I’m listening to Terry Edge’s bits on starshipsofa about how to write and it’s helping. I just figured out what is wrong with my plots. I’m not torturing my characters enough.

But imagine you were Stephenie Meyer and could write a chapter a day on a good day and a couple of pages on a bad day. That is inspiring.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 12:55:17 AM by alllie »



DKT

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Sure, a key plot point of Die Hard is that John is trying to save his marriage - but that's really only there to give him a reason for being at the party(it’s the writers’ way of showing John is a “good” man - there are thousands of other ways this could have been setup).  The movie is pretty much all action once it gets rolling - there are no long soliloquies where John professes his undying love for his wife.

I agree that the writers could have showed this many different ways.  However, I think it's important to note why they chose to go with John trying to save his marriage.  It's something the majority of people (not just guys, but definitely inclusive of guys) can identify with on an emotional level.


slic

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The interest (or lack thereof) in "romance novels" comes, I think, more from “men don’t talk about their feelings” – why or where this comes from is another discussion.  It is not that we don’t have the feelings, it’s that we don’t spend a whole lot of time going on about them.

It's widely assumed that women just talk more than men.  In fact, women and men talk pretty much exactly the same amount.

I know that's not the same as "talk about their feelings."  But I'm willing to bet that, once the words and topics are all counted, talking about feelings will come out even, too.  Women don't actually spend that much time "going on" about their feelings, to be honest.
I agree with you pretty much.  I believe that it is an incorrect sterotype, but there are predispositions whether they are culturally or genetically based.  The key is that people shouldn't feel guilty for whatever their preference is.  I've seen female friends teased for being too girly-girl, and I think that's as bad as teasing them for being too tomboyish.
My son is encouraged to express his fellings, but when he doesn't want to talk about them, he's left alone.



slic

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Sure, a key plot point of Die Hard is that John is trying to save his marriage - but that's really only there to give him a reason for being at the party(it’s the writers’ way of showing John is a “good” man - there are thousands of other ways this could have been setup).  The movie is pretty much all action once it gets rolling - there are no long soliloquies where John professes his undying love for his wife.

I agree that the writers could have showed this many different ways.  However, I think it's important to note why they chose to go with John trying to save his marriage.  It's something the majority of people (not just guys, but definitely inclusive of guys) can identify with on an emotional level.
Sure, that's true, but on the same token I doubt the target audience (18-25 year old guys) really identified with saving a marrriage.  If emotional connection was the goal then John could have been trying to reconnect with his 20 year old daughter/son.  I think the plot choice had more to do with the writer than the story.



DKT

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Sure, a key plot point of Die Hard is that John is trying to save his marriage - but that's really only there to give him a reason for being at the party(it’s the writers’ way of showing John is a “good” man - there are thousands of other ways this could have been setup).  The movie is pretty much all action once it gets rolling - there are no long soliloquies where John professes his undying love for his wife.

I agree that the writers could have showed this many different ways.  However, I think it's important to note why they chose to go with John trying to save his marriage.  It's something the majority of people (not just guys, but definitely inclusive of guys) can identify with on an emotional level.
Sure, that's true, but on the same token I doubt the target audience (18-25 year old guys) really identified with saving a marrriage.  If emotional connection was the goal then John could have been trying to reconnect with his 20 year old daughter/son.  I think the plot choice had more to do with the writer than the story.

Well, maybe not saving marriages, but I think they could identify with broken families, or at least saving a romantic relationship. 

And you're right, this was just the motivator, and probably about the writer making the choice.  But still, I think it's telling that for a movie that was aimed at guys, the way they chose to get the audience to identify with McClean, and the success it reached (partially) because of that choice was telling. 

Although, yeah, we all really do love that Yippiekaiyay line ;)