Author Topic: PodCastle Miniature 009: What Dragons Prefer — Female Characters Discussion  (Read 8940 times)

SquidDNA

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Hey guys, I hear that all "strong" female protagonists are easily defined by their dislike of male characters. Is there any merit to this?

(Since I'm new, [/sarcasm])

Seriously, after this, "Hallah Iron Thighs..", and "Goblin Lullaby", I'm kind of getting a "smug" vibe off of Podcastle. While "Fourteen experiments in postal delivery" was sort of an exception because it was a dynamic exploration of a relationship, and stands on its own merits, I'm starting to wonder if it marked the beginning of a slide into misandry.

Women in stories don't have to hate men to be strong. See "The Run of the Fiery Horse", ffs. "For Fear of Dragons." "Fear of Rain." "Spell of the Sparrow."



Heradel

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Hey guys, I hear that all "strong" female protagonists are easily defined by their dislike of male characters. Is there any merit to this?

(Since I'm new, [/sarcasm])

Seriously, after this, "Hallah Iron Thighs..", and "Goblin Lullaby", I'm kind of getting a "smug" vibe off of Podcastle. While "Fourteen experiments in postal delivery" was sort of an exception because it was a dynamic exploration of a relationship, and stands on its own merits, I'm starting to wonder if it marked the beginning of a slide into misandry.

Women in stories don't have to hate men to be strong. See "The Run of the Fiery Horse", ffs. "For Fear of Dragons." "Fear of Rain." "Spell of the Sparrow."

This has been discussed here: http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1745.0;all and here: http://forum.escapeartists.info/index.php?topic=1519.0;all

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


Rachel Swirsky

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FTR, this is another of Steve's purchases.



SquidDNA

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I'm not certain this was discussed in those other threads, although I appreciate your linking them. This is because the stories I exclusively mentioned as being problematic didn't appear on Podcastle until after those threads were finished. To clarify, the stories I gave at the end were counterexamples to the newer ones.

It's an important distinction that too many people still don't understand-- feminism isn't misandry. I think that's why there's still such resistance in many segments of the population to the notion that, indeed, "Women are People" because misandry marches under the banner of female empowerment. From a feminist perspective, as a male at least, it's a lot more interesting storywise to how a woman overcomes obstacles that don't involve stereotypical jackass men. To use "Song of the Sparrow" as an example, the males in the story were background characters at best-- passive-- but that's not a negative portrayal. "Goosegirl" and "The Run of the Fiery Horse" featured both good and evil male characters, just as you would expect.

No, I'm not trying to say that x or y editor necessarily has some kind of agenda that's causing what I perceive to be a trend. I'm pointing out what I perceive to be a trend. I don't care who picked which stories-- the trend is the problem.

If you're still having trouble seeing it, imagine a story where a handful of female characters stumble around being stupid while serving to make the male protagonist look clever for taking advantage of their weaknesses. I don't doubt that you've actually already read such a story so it won't be a stretch of the imagination-- fantasy, science fiction, and horror started long before liberal ideals really took root in the broader population, and so we're left with unfortunate pairings of great imagination and backwards attitudes like H.P. Lovecraft, who wrote of unspeakable horrors to match his racism, and Fred Saberhagen, whose amazing planet-sized beserker robots shared stories with women who were always simpering in a corner or twisting their ankle as they tried to escape or falling in love with whoever was the strongest man in the room at the time.

For their faults, they're not bad stories, and I extend that to "Hallah Iron Thighs," "What Dragons Prefer," and "Goblin Lullaby." But if you picked up a modern anthology and the first three stories you read featured the same negative portrayal of women, I believe you'd either think that the editors had made a mistake or you'd put the book down. That's an imperfect comparison to Podcastle, of course, because it's not an anthology and I know full well that the other stories aren't like this. Consider it an anthology in progress and I think the comparison sticks well enough.

Finally, I don't want to see ungrateful for the good work that the editors of Podcastle and Escape Artists as a whole are doing. Digging into the Pseudopod and Escape Pod archives got me through thesis writing, and I've never been able to adequately put words together to express how good that is to you lot. If I didn't enjoy these podcasts, I wouldn't bother posting a criticism.



Ragtime

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I think that what SquidDNA is picking up on is that, while Hallah Iron-Thighs (and sister) and the Goblin Lullaby woman (and, to a degree, this story's dragon slayer) are strong female protagonists, they don't really occupy a world with a lot of other female characters in them.

It's a step in the right direction from "all male world where the females are only furniture" to "all male world with strong female lead," but what these stories have in common are "strong female lead encounters the tropes of fantasy -- with hilarious results!"

The women in these stories grouped by DNAsquid are all "Outsiders" -- women in a "man's world."  When Hallah meets her band of thieves, or the Goblin meets the questers, the interlopers are all men.

I'm certainly not suggesting a world where "Wonder Woman fights Cheetah and Giganta" while Superman fights Lex Luthor -- nothing wrong with inter-gendered conflict.  But what we are left with is incomplete integration.  If we are willing to accept a world in which Hallah can be a female knight/ soldier-of-fortune (and we all are), why do the band of thieves have to be all men?

I certainly don't see misandry.  (Misanthropy, perhaps, but that is different.)  But I do see the point that, by only changing one stereotype (through equal inclusions of women as heroes), and leaving in place all of the others(the rapacious Lord, the band of thieves, the heroic boy), you can end up with a lot of Heroic Woman Fights and Defeats Evil Man stories.



Swamp

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I think that what SquidDNA is picking up on is that, while Hallah Iron-Thighs (and sister) and the Goblin Lullaby woman (and, to a degree, this story's dragon slayer) are strong female protagonists, they don't really occupy a world with a lot of other female characters in them...

...I certainly don't see misandry.  (Misanthropy, perhaps, but that is different.)  But I do see the point that, by only changing one stereotype (through equal inclusions of women as heroes), and leaving in place all of the others(the rapacious Lord, the band of thieves, the heroic boy), you can end up with a lot of Heroic Woman Fights and Defeats Evil Man stories.

I think what SquidDNA was saying was that all of the men in the listed stories are stupid and it's the women who have to put up with them and/or solve the problems in spite of them.  He saw a trend and pointed it out.  I've liked the stories listed so it doesn't really bother me.

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deflective

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I'm not certain this was discussed in those other threads,
...
It's an important distinction that too many people still don't understand-- feminism isn't misandry.

that was pretty much my point too, i just worked up to it.

i still notice it but it only bugs me when there's a string in a row. like we've been having.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 07:49:05 PM by deflective »



Left of Duck

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Indeed. There is a difference between "Strong female character in a man's world" (which I have no issue with), and "Strong female character in a world of male idiots". There always seems to be a tendancy for works to be either misandristic or mysogynistic. Far from putting women on equal footing, it merely tips the scales in the other direction.